Form I: Shii-Cho

[Darth Cestual]

so,.. went ahead and drew it anyways

[Solinus]

I have finally read every single post on every single page of this thread, and I am finally caught up! I'd like to offer my interpretations of this discussion for you all to digest. Remember, this is coming from someone with zero experience, who is clumsy, uncoordinated, but is determined to succeed no matter what.

My basic understanding of the form is that it is what is taught to beginners. This form is used to set a basic foundation of weapon strikes and parries with which the practitioner can gain a solid understanding. With this foundation set (you MUST have a solid foundation or else everything built upon it will crumble), the practitioner can further expand their knowledge of the form and become a master, or branch out into one of the other forms.

As stated prior, the form is mainly used for setting the foundation, but practical use would be against more than one opponent. It seems to me that footwork and knowing how to maneuver is also key to the form (this could be key to every form and just something assumed. **Remember.. new guy here!**). Using the wide sweeping moves and controlling the movement, one could force their opponent to concentrate more on, or lose focus of, their environment and make a mistake.

SEQUENCES

My thoughts on sequences is that I am going to just leave this to the more experienced of you. From what I have seen from people like General Sun, Lucien Kane, and the drawings by Darth Cestual, I think you all have a great system set up. I would like to say that conforming to a rigid form would be limiting, considering the infinite possibilities that creating something like this could offer. If ANYTHING about this form should be set in stone, I would say that the basic strikes (Sai, Cho, and Shiim) and parries be the only thing.

For example: "In Shii-Cho, there are three basic strikes and three basic parries. Here are three sequences that incorporate the strikes and parries, but there are infinitely more, waiting to be created." This is just hypothetical. I have NO IDEA if there are just three strike or three parries. I'm just using this as an example.

I think what people like General Sun, Lucien Kane, and Darth Cestual are coming up with are variations of sequences that use established strikes and parries. But I still have no idea what the VERY BASIC FOUNDATION of the form is. I'm learning a few strikes here and there from watching Darth Nonymous and the Terra Prime videos, as well as videos from Lucien Kane, and now the drawings from Darth Cestual.

EXPECTATIONS

As a beginner with zero experience, what I would like to see from an established form of lightsaber combat are the basics of what the rest of the form (sequences and velocities) are built upon. Tell me how many strikes there are. Show me those strikes. Tell me how many parries there are. Show me those parries. Show me a practical application of a strike and parry. Include footwork. Once these basics are learned, I can then feel comfortable moving into a sequence to practice. With some practicing, I can then participate in velocities against other opponents.

I may be TOTALLY off here. But this is my basic understanding of what has transpired in this thread. All of the rest of you are really experienced, which is great! But there are lots of others here that are like me: reading through and attempting to digest and put into a practical application, but maybe too intimidated to speak.

GOALS

My personal goal is to learn as much of Shii-Cho as possible, then eventually move into Soresu. I consider myself extremely lucky that Lucien Kane lives fairly close to me and has extended an invitation to me to join him this weekend. I would like to start and establish my own group here in San Diego as there aren't any at the moment. There are a few people at my work who are interested, but I want to be able to offer them some knowledge as well.

Thank you for this great discussion. Please keep it up. Know that while you are all discussing, I am absorbing and putting this into practical use!

[Darth Nonymous]

Ok so here is a little video on our Shii-Cho Form. There are some demos and stance clarifications. I also tried to layer it with information about dulon training and such.

Let me know what you think:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZEESNVrHYc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZEESNVrHYc</a>

[Darth Nonymous]

I have finally read every single post on every single page of this thread, and I am finally caught up! I'd like to offer my interpretations of this discussion for you all to digest. Remember, this is coming from someone with zero experience, who is clumsy, uncoordinated, but is determined to succeed no matter what.

My basic understanding of the form is that it is what is taught to beginners. This form is used to set a basic foundation of weapon strikes and parries with which the practitioner can gain a solid understanding. With this foundation set (you MUST have a solid foundation or else everything built upon it will crumble), the practitioner can further expand their knowledge of the form and become a master, or branch out into one of the other forms.

As stated prior, the form is mainly used for setting the foundation, but practical use would be against more than one opponent. It seems to me that footwork and knowing how to maneuver is also key to the form (this could be key to every form and just something assumed. **Remember.. new guy here!**). Using the wide sweeping moves and controlling the movement, one could force their opponent to concentrate more on, or lose focus of, their environment and make a mistake.

SEQUENCES

My thoughts on sequences is that I am going to just leave this to the more experienced of you. From what I have seen from people like General Sun, Lucien Kane, and the drawings by Darth Cestual, I think you all have a great system set up. I would like to say that conforming to a rigid form would be limiting, considering the infinite possibilities that creating something like this could offer. If ANYTHING about this form should be set in stone, I would say that the basic strikes (Sai, Cho, and Shiim) and parries be the only thing.

For example: "In Shii-Cho, there are three basic strikes and three basic parries. Here are three sequences that incorporate the strikes and parries, but there are infinitely more, waiting to be created." This is just hypothetical. I have NO IDEA if there are just three strike or three parries. I'm just using this as an example.

I think what people like General Sun, Lucien Kane, and Darth Cestual are coming up with are variations of sequences that use established strikes and parries. But I still have no idea what the VERY BASIC FOUNDATION of the form is. I'm learning a few strikes here and there from watching Darth Nonymous and the Terra Prime videos, as well as videos from Lucien Kane, and now the drawings from Darth Cestual.

EXPECTATIONS

As a beginner with zero experience, what I would like to see from an established form of lightsaber combat are the basics of what the rest of the form (sequences and velocities) are built upon. Tell me how many strikes there are. Show me those strikes. Tell me how many parries there are. Show me those parries. Show me a practical application of a strike and parry. Include footwork. Once these basics are learned, I can then feel comfortable moving into a sequence to practice. With some practicing, I can then participate in velocities against other opponents.

I may be TOTALLY off here. But this is my basic understanding of what has transpired in this thread. All of the rest of you are really experienced, which is great! But there are lots of others here that are like me: reading through and attempting to digest and put into a practical application, but maybe too intimidated to speak.

GOALS

My personal goal is to learn as much of Shii-Cho as possible, then eventually move into Soresu. I consider myself extremely lucky that Lucien Kane lives fairly close to me and has extended an invitation to me to join him this weekend. I would like to start and establish my own group here in San Diego as there aren't any at the moment. There are a few people at my work who are interested, but I want to be able to offer them some knowledge as well.

Thank you for this great discussion. Please keep it up. Know that while you are all discussing, I am absorbing and putting this into practical use!

I think you understand it pretty well. I also think you probably have most of what you need to know already. As some one experienced in the martial arts, I can attest, you don't need a lot to go a long way. You have the right attitude so, if you use your head, I am confident you will attain you desired level of skill.

If all goes as planned, We should have the majority of our Shii-Cho system up for everyone to borrow grab and steal from. Form is finally done so now it's on to Velocities!

[Solinus]

I think you understand it pretty well. I also think you probably have most of what you need to know already. As some one experienced in the martial arts, I can attest, you don't need a lot to go a long way. You have the right attitude so, if you use your head, I am confident you will attain you desired level of skill.

If all goes as planned, We should have the majority of our Shii-Cho system up for everyone to borrow grab and steal from. Form is finally done so now it's on to Velocities!

Thank you very much Darth Nonymous. I am playing and replaying your videos over and over. I am digesting every stance, placement of the feet, hands and arm movements. This Dulon appears to be fairly simple, just long. I am so very glad that you broke it down into segments. This makes it easy. I have the first trajectory memorized, and am just trying to perfect it before moving onto the next.

What I find that I have a problem with is the turning. I never know which way to turn. Once I do it a few times though, I am sure I'll get it. I want to post a video of me completing the Dulon and hope to hear your feedback, as well as feedback from everyone else.

[Ander]

@Darth Nonymous

Shii-Cho as we do it here is different, but still I can tell that the spirit of the form is the same; for example, the right side low blow is very similar, though we stop it below groin height for safety reasons; on the other hand the left side one is very different. Still, I enjoyed watching the video quite a lot, as it's refreshing to see different interpretations of a form, and it offers a lot of new ideas that one can use to improve, so I applaud you on your initiative.

However, there are a couple of things which I believe are open to criticism.

First, I have noticed several times that the instructor uncovers himself by bringing the sword behind him to charge the blow, such as at 2:01 and especially at 2:03 when he actually stops for a half second. Given the peculiarities of the saber (it cuts everything but a saber, without much effort) I believe this is un-needed and leaves you open to attack. Here, the sword goes behind you only when rotating which is faster than inverting the movement, as there is never a moment where it actually stops behind you. The sword is your only defense, why would you want it behind you when the opponent is in front? That makes sense only when facing more than one opponent, but that's what Soresu is for.

Second, I couldn't help but notice that many of the blows shown in the video have the potential of causing real harm to the opponent; look at 4:23 for example, that can easily hit the throat or the neck with the point, and it's a no-no in my book. We also have no kneeling stance, but that's an interpretation matter, whereas the safety matter is real. Also, there is no real need to extend low blows to the upper body: a hit in the legs or groin is good enough to kill, and not as dangerous in practice.

If this style is only used for mock combats, then I withdraw this observation, but if you want to actually play for points, as we do, it's not something I would want my opponent to use against me.

I hope that didn't come out as too outspoken or aggressive, but I feel really strongly on safety issues.

[Darth Nonymous]

Andus:  Thanks for the compliment, let me address some of your criticisms:

"First, I have noticed several times that the instructor uncovers himself by bringing the sword behind him to charge the blow, such as at 2:01 and especially at 2:03 when he actually stops for a half second. Given the peculiarities of the saber (it cuts everything but a saber, without much effort) I believe this is un-needed and leaves you open to attack. Here, the sword goes behind you only when rotating which is faster than inverting the movement, as there is never a moment where it actually stops behind you. The sword is your only defense, why would you want it behind you when the opponent is in front? That makes sense only when facing more than one opponent, but that's what Soresu is for."

That is a misunderstanding of technique. When practicing alone, one works on range of motion with the arms and shoulders. Bringing the blade all the way back when doing solo practices patterns correct movement and has been used in the military for centuries to train soldiers. Most of this form comes from real military sets that were taught all the way into WW2 in China. There is also something of a parry that can be performed at the back. It is done two ways: one bring the sword straight back or circle it around the head. Yes, one needs to open one's defenses for a time, but that is true of most swinging attacks.

"Second, I couldn't help but notice that many of the blows shown in the video have the potential of causing real harm to the opponent; look at 4:23 for example, that can easily hit the throat or the neck with the point, and it's a no-no in my book. We also have no kneeling stance, but that's an interpretation matter, whereas the safety matter is real. Also, there is no real need to extend low blows to the upper body: a hit in the legs or groin is good enough to kill, and not as dangerous in practice."

I disagree entirely. This is a martial art and as such the techniques are intended to kill or maim. The techniques used in this form, as I stated, are unaltered from military forms. So , yes, most of the techniques are performed with an intent to hit and (in our minds) kill. Shii-Cho itself is simple and direct. Less experienced fighters must go through large ROM or they will have a hard time creating speed and power in confrontation. We use the 6 target zones and the head is included. Even if you aren't trying to go for thee targets, you can still get hit by them. We protect our necks and heads very well for that reason. We also do not see the need to alter techniques when we have safety gear available to us.

While the saber is technically a toy, it is still a weapon analog. If you take these techniques and apply them to real swords and things, they should work.

"If this style is only used for mock combats, then I withdraw this observation, but if you want to actually play for points, as we do, it's not something I would want my opponent to use against me."

No worries, if we ever meet up we will throw some gear on you and you will be fine

We use the style for forms, choreography, dueling, and all of that. We play for points, but we wear safety gear. I thin if you guy just throw on a fencing mask and some good gloves, you can do all of these techniques safely and at full speed. We wear head gear, pads, gloves, and all of that and we can go full contact with the sabers. Yes we go for the head and neck. Yes, we go for the torso and legs. But we know that we have protection so no one gets hurt.

Even at slow speeds and with beginners, we have them wear head gear and gloves-even if it is just points. We are total safety dictators. The description of how you guy go at it seems a little risky in my book, so I cannot endorse it.I have seen people loose eyes playing tennis. Swinging a stick at someone requires lots of safety measures in my book and we take that VERY seriously.

So far so good.

Again, thanks for the feedback! If you like it,please subscribe, we are putting up more videos all the time. Velocities are coming up next with Shii-Cho.

[Ander]

Hi, thanks for the reply.
I understand that we are simply approaching the "problem" from two different philosophical approaches. One is to reduce danger, and therefore make it more of a sport, even if with a martial background, the other is to go no limits and increase protection, and therefore make it more of a martial art.
I will gladly follow your videos; even if I can't use your moves I believe that there is always something to be learnt from everybody (and I see how much that is true every time I teach somebody).
Regards

[Darth Nonymous]

Thank you very much Darth Nonymous. I am playing and replaying your videos over and over. I am digesting every stance, placement of the feet, hands and arm movements. This Dulon appears to be fairly simple, just long. I am so very glad that you broke it down into segments. This makes it easy. I have the first trajectory memorized, and am just trying to perfect it before moving onto the next.

What I find that I have a problem with is the turning. I never know which way to turn. Once I do it a few times though, I am sure I'll get it. I want to post a video of me completing the Dulon and hope to hear your feedback, as well as feedback from everyone else.

Yes, unfortunately, because of the light, i was forced to split it up so you could see what I was doing when feeing the other direction. Otherwise I would have put a split screen or PIP and show the set as performed. I will try to getting around to having VorNach or some one shoot me doing it in it's entirety.

Maybe this will help; The lines go back and forth, one forward turn around go back. So each alter nation is simply headed the opposite direction.

That being said, Most real forms or "kata" develop from simply sticking a bunch of basic lines together. You can practice each trajectory as a small short form. So you T1-reset/rest T2-etc. etc. Building up layers over time, when you get a handle on where your body is in space, you won't even have to think about it.

Totally! post what you have so far and we can have a look see.

[Solinus]

Second, I couldn't help but notice that many of the blows shown in the video have the potential of causing real harm to the opponent..

How is this any different from performing a bo staff kata or other weapon form in any martial art? Yes, we are all participating in an activity that comes from a fictional work of art, using glowing sticks of light. This activity does incorporate real martial arts and techniques that can seriously hurt someone.

Being prior service military, I do everything the same: I train as I would fight. Will I ever fight for my life with a glowing stick? No. But I put in discipline and maximum effort into my training. It's up to me to know how to control myself when performing with other people or dueling.

Just like in a martial arts class when you spar with your classmates. You use the same techniques that have the ability to kill someone, but you are disciplined enough to control yourself and be safe.

[Ander]

I think I didn't explain myself properly: with "fictional" lightsabers, all of our techniques would be lethal or dismembering. The point is that they are not dangerous for my opponent with "replica" lightsabers. So he still "dies" but he is not at risk of injury. I hope it's a bit clearer now

[Solinus]

I think I didn't explain myself properly: with "fictional" lightsabers, all of our techniques would be lethal or dismembering. The point is that they are not dangerous for my opponent with "replica" lightsabers. So he still "dies" but he is not at risk of injury. I hope it's a bit clearer now

No, I understood you completely. And I am on board with you about safety. It is very important.

My point is that lightsaber combat is just like any other martial art. Take a class and you'll see that the moves employed in sparring are the same moves you would use in real life. The only difference is that you exert a certain amount of control and wear the appropriate protective gear in an attempt to mitigate any potential injuries.

I guess in my mind, having been shaped by combat training by the military, if you train and practice using non-lethal techniques, you will employee non-lethal skills when the time is needed to use them.

I realize this is all staged and not real, but there is an element of realism behind it.

And I applaud your efforts to keep your students safe good sir!

[Ander]

All the good efforts are my Masters', and all the mistakes are mine
I'm just an instructor at the lowest level, but I am learning.

A question to Darth Cestual: did you do all the drawing by hand? It's amazing.

[Darth Cestual]

A question to Darth Cestual: did you do all the drawing by hand? It's amazing.

Thankee! Yes, the line work was done by hand, in pencil then inked over with a Micron pen. Most of my drawing these days I do at work when I hit a slow part of the day. Once finished, I bring my sketchbook home from the office and scan it into the computer where I add color and do a lot of cleanup, the same as I do most of my other works I've posted.

Drawing my katas was a habit I'd picked up years ago when I was practicing karate regularly. It helped me to not only learn the form, but I analyzed every move in order to draw it, and therefore gained a better understanding of how each move was supposed to properly function. I find it interesting to see so many variations of Sun's Shii Cho are out there (my own included) that all show their basis in the original version but have had each movement interpreted differently. I imagine much of that comes from the various martial arts backgrounds so many of us have.

[Darth Nonymous]

Thankee! Yes, the line work was done by hand, in pencil then inked over with a Micron pen. Most of my drawing these days I do at work when I hit a slow part of the day. Once finished, I bring my sketchbook home from the office and scan it into the computer where I add color and do a lot of cleanup, the same as I do most of my other works I've posted.

Drawing my katas was a habit I'd picked up years ago when I was practicing karate regularly. It helped me to not only learn the form, but I analyzed every move in order to draw it, and therefore gained a better understanding of how each move was supposed to properly function. I find it interesting to see so many variations of Sun's Shii Cho are out there (my own included) that all show their basis in the original version but have had each movement interpreted differently. I imagine much of that comes from the various martial arts backgrounds so many of us have.

One suggestion:  I see that for the solo form you have front view and top view. Then in the two person version you have side view. I might think about making a side view of the solo set so folks could follow along and see how you guys match your set to your two person exercise.