Musings on Djem So

[Darth Nonymous]

Fascinating video!  I love seeing this longsword stuff, it really makes me want to get involved in it.

You should try it sometime. I think fencers like you are well suited to it and would probably like it. It sure is fun.

[Master VorNach]

Ok, this is some fine longsword tech nique and I think a very good an along for Djem So. I also like the fact that they are using the same protective gloves as we do

Yeah, those guys are some of the best I've seen.

Fascinating video!  I love seeing this longsword stuff, it really makes me want to get involved in it.

http://www.communitywalk.com/THE-HEMA-ALLIANCE-Training-Partner-Finder
http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322

[Master Nero Attoru]

http://www.communitywalk.com/THE-HEMA-ALLIANCE-Training-Partner-Finder
http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322

Hmmm, the North Jersey one is only about an hour away... not bad.  Amusingly enough, the South Jersey one is right near where I grew up!

[Master VorNach]

Alright, I dropped this link over in the Saberfit challenge but since it's a Djem So video I wanted to include it here as well.
This was done mostly to learn a bit about video editing with Windows Movie Maker but it's also a basic set of steps for Djem So practioners to consider.

http://youtu.be/pPYEmdTUI18

Have fun.

[Solinus]

I liked the video, and think it was nicely done. The music was awesome.

I watched it twice so far (partly to watch footwork and partly to listen to the music).

So, Falling Avalanche is a dropping strike? What zones do you target?

With the rising strike Volcano, is this just a reversal of the Falling Avalanche? Or do you target different zones?

And what is the difference between lower guard and waiting guard? And what is quiescent guard?

I'm sorry for so many questions...

[Master VorNach]

Waiting and Quiescent are the names of 2 long sword guards I've adapted for use with Djem So.
They are both low guards (the blade is at or below waist level, though this is rather arbitrary).

The Volcano I invented for use with the form because the available material only describes one technique o falling avalanche).

More information is on the way with more details too, Thanks for being interested and keep asking questions!

[Master VorNach]

Alright, some of these are indirectly answered earlier in this thread but I'll consolidate the information here.

So, Falling Avalanche is a dropping strike? What zones do you target?

Generally this is targeted towards the head and shoulders. If you use the Marks of Contact as a guide Falling Avalanche can be applied to Cho Sun (amputate dominant/weapon arm), Cho Mok (amputate non-dominant arm), Sai Cha (remove the head), or Sai Tok (cut the body in half, vertically from the head). For practice purposes if you are using Sai Cha your end guard position will be the Finishing guard while the other techniques will usually leave you in the Quiescent guard.
With some finesse you could target the the hands and forearms with less lethal intent; Disarm with Sun djem by attacking your opponents weapon, use Shiim (light tap/poke which could also be directed at the head and upper arms) or if lopping things off is your cup of tea target, the weapon hand with Cho mai (amputate the weapon hand. --poor Luke).

With the rising strike Volcano, is this just a reversal of the Falling Avalanche? Or do you target different zones?

No and yes.
You can target the same or different zones going back up as you did coming down. If your initial strike missed you're going to want to do this pretty quickly because odds are good your opponent is not waiting for you to recover.

To be a bit more informative rising strikes, as demonstrated here, are done with the "short edge" (I know, lightsabers have no edges but it's the terminology I'm used to) or the back edge of the weapon. It's possible to do a rising strike with the long edge but that requires twisting your arms and rotating the weapon, which can take a little time. A short edge strike can happen immediately from the end of a downward cut. They won't have as much power as a regular cut but the targets here are most often the arms and hands, which are more delicate and don't require as much impact to damage. These are also often used as setup for a stab or thrust attack from a low angle. Few things will grab someones attention like something nasty approaching their intestines at a dangerous velocity.

And what is the difference between lower guard and waiting guard? And what is quiescent guard?

"Lower guard" is a general reference to positions where the blade is held low, usually at or below the level of your own waist. So the Waiting, Finishing & Quiescent guards are all low guards. You can refer back to this video http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E starting at 01:04 for examples of Waiting and Finishing guards.
This is a side view of the  Quiescent guard:
http://i.imgur.com/0MMfo.png

I'm sorry for so many questions...

Please do not apologize for honest curiosity and a desire to learn. 
You do a great service by helping motivate me to pay close attention to what I am demonstrating and writing, in order to be as clear and accurate as I can.

This video was not meant to be a comprehensive examination of techniques but it has certainly begun to evolve into that. As I become more familiar with my video editing I'll be able to post some more comprehensive videos.

[Solinus]

Alright, some of these are indirectly answered earlier in this thread but I'll consolidate the information here.
Generally this is targeted towards the head and shoulders. If you use the Marks of Contact as a guide Falling Avalanche can be applied to Cho Sun (amputate dominant/weapon arm), Cho Mok (amputate non-dominant arm), Sai Cha (remove the head), or Sai Tok (cut the body in half, vertically from the head). For practice purposes if you are using Sai Cha your end guard position will be the Finishing guard while the other techniques will usually leave you in the Quiescent guard.
With some finesse you could target the the hands and forearms with less lethal intent; Disarm with Sun djem by attacking your opponents weapon, use Shiim (light tap/poke which could also be directed at the head and upper arms) or if lopping things off is your cup of tea target, the weapon hand with Cho mai (amputate the weapon hand. --poor Luke).

No and yes.
You can target the same or different zones going back up as you did coming down. If your initial strike missed you're going to want to do this pretty quickly because odds are good your opponent is not waiting for you to recover.

To be a bit more informative rising strikes, as demonstrated here, are done with the "short edge" (I know, lightsabers have no edges but it's the terminology I'm used to) or the back edge of the weapon. It's possible to do a rising strike with the long edge but that requires twisting your arms and rotating the weapon, which can take a little time. A short edge strike can happen immediately from the end of a downward cut. They won't have as much power as a regular cut but the targets here are most often the arms and hands, which are more delicate and don't require as much impact to damage. These are also often used as setup for a stab or thrust attack from a low angle. Few things will grab someones attention like something nasty approaching their intestines at a dangerous velocity.

"Lower guard" is a general reference to positions where the blade is held low, usually at or below the level of your own waist. So the Waiting, Finishing & Quiescent guards are all low guards. You can refer back to this video http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E starting at 01:04 for examples of Waiting and Finishing guards.
This is a side view of the  Quiescent guard:
http://i.imgur.com/0MMfo.png

Please do not apologize for honest curiosity and a desire to learn. 
You do a great service by helping motivate me to pay close attention to what I am demonstrating and writing, in order to be as clear and accurate as I can.

This video was not meant to be a comprehensive examination of techniques but it has certainly begun to evolve into that. As I become more familiar with my video editing I'll be able to post some more comprehensive videos.

Thank you very much for the clarifications. As I read your responses and go back to watch the videos, I can now see the answers to my questions. I'm very grateful to you for your responses!

[Master VorNach]

Darth_Nonymous and I were having a conversation yesterday afternoon about the volume of videos people have been willing to share of late, both instructional and presentational requests for suggestions.
This is a pretty amazing community where so many people are willing to put themselves out in the public eye to both offer information and ask for feedback.
A common theme we have noticed relates to a combination of topics; targeting, guard positions and safety gear (are you tired of hearing us talk about safety gear yet because we’ll keep going.)

Guards are a significant foundation point for martial arts training and this is no less important in weapon based arts. They provide a position from which to launch a technique, a place to finish after a technique and, as the student increases their level of skill the guards provide transition points as one moves through different techniques.
An element we noted is a distinct lack of high guards; positions that, often, put the sword at or above the collar bone, protect the head and neck and are common positions from which to launch an attack on an opponent’s head, neck and upper torso.

There is positive and negative in this observation. The positive is we don’t see a lot of people using any kind of safety gear on their heads; no masks or even safety goggles, so with this low-line approach they are less likely to cause head injuries. This is only a limited positive though because despite the emphasis on technique that take place and target below the head accidents do happen. This also limits training opportunities and can even impart poor form and habits on the combatant.

The head is a common target in sword based martial arts, just look at the competitive videos we’ve been posting. The majority of the combat takes place with the hands and weapon held high, targeting the head, neck and upper torso. There is a simple piece of geometry here that has an impact on this process. If I cut at my partner’s waist it’s a longer distance for my weapon to travel than my partner’s attack at my head.

Behold, my awesome artistic skills….


By limiting your targeting you limit your ability to train the full complement of skills and potentially develop bad habits. I’ve seen far too many people who practice without head protection over time begin  leaning forward a little bit, then a little more, trying to get a little more reach to target their partners torso and legs. The end result is they are using poor posture, standing off balance, self-limiting their techniques and sometimes even dropping their heads closer to the attacks their partner is making, thus putting themselves even more into harm’s way.
It’s for the best that people are avoiding each others heads when not wearing appropriate fighting gear (which in comparison to a new lightsaber is pretty reasonably priced):

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Foil-Practice-Sabre-fencing/dp/B0002Y9GX6
http://www.amazon.com/Paintball-Xtreme-Rage-Single-Anti-Fog/dp/B0014UWJJ0/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1340264046&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=feacning+mask
 - even this would be better than nothing, and it might even be workable with lightsaber combat.

and I won’t gainsay being cautious over reckless however the benefits of having proper protection are enormous in terms of a combatants ability to develop and train the full range of options open to them and learn to apply them in a more combat oriented setting. 

Let me emphasize that the work and progress people are doing is spectacular. Non-contact training is the foundation to developing good form and the progress that many people are showing is proof of their dedication and commitment. The next step is to be able to apply those same training habits in a combative setting, without using the limitations presented by not having a safe (or as safe as you can make a combative activity at least) way to practice the full range of the form in study.

You can do solo practice on the whole range of techniques day and night but until you start working against another person you’re going to be missing some incredibly valuable material and insight.

Stay safe, practice hard, have fun.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Bad habits can be formed by limiting your striking targets, but really by sparring in general you can develop bad habits.

I've done a martial arts for years that doesn't allow face contact... and really any time you spar you aren't, or shouldn't be going full force with intent to do harm.

So my first (and only) time I got jumped in a bad part of town by two guys, I realized about half way through the fight... I wasn't fighting, I was sparring, only going about 80%... Once I realized that I had to correct that, because they were trying to actually hurt me. So I realized that my sparring is different from what I do when I'm actually in a fight for my life.

I'm not saying that maximizing your realism in training isn't smart, I am saying that proper instruction can prepare you for these things, and squash bad habits before they become a habit.

My Sensei was amazing at this... The refinement he instruct to you would be miniscule, but the difference would be absolutely noticeable. I mean my basic punch was getting corrected for years. It wasn't big things, it was always the smallest little thing. Yet now my punch mechanics are pretty good.

I didn't get that from sparring, I got that from proper instruction. I also think that being taught a combat mindset is another key to the equation. Learning tactics as well as techniques.

Anyways, I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that if you don't have headgear, and you have to train at 40%; you can still get quality training, and avoid developing bad habits.

[Darth Nonymous]

Bad habits can be formed by limiting your striking targets, but really by sparring in general you can develop bad habits.

I've done a martial arts for years that doesn't allow face contact... and really any time you spar you aren't, or shouldn't be going full force with intent to do harm.

So my first (and only) time I got jumped in a bad part of town by two guys, I realized about half way through the fight... I wasn't fighting, I was sparring, only going about 80%... Once I realized that I had to correct that, because they were trying to actually hurt me. So I realized that my sparring is different from what I do when I'm actually in a fight for my life.

I'm not saying that maximizing your realism in training isn't smart, I am saying that proper instruction can prepare you for these things, and squash bad habits before they become a habit.

My Sensei was amazing at this... The refinement he instruct to you would be miniscule, but the difference would be absolutely noticeable. I mean my basic punch was getting corrected for years. It wasn't big things, it was always the smallest little thing. Yet now my punch mechanics are pretty good.

I didn't get that from sparring, I got that from proper instruction. I also think that being taught a combat mindset is another key to the equation. Learning tactics as well as techniques.

Anyways, I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that if you don't have headgear, and you have to train at 40%; you can still get quality training, and avoid developing bad habits.

Well,  a few things from my perspective teaching at multiple levels and multiple ages:

With sparring, if you do not have good instruction, you will be learning to fight, not necessarily well. But that's not really sparring. That's play fighting. Sparring is a mindful experience and no, you do not have to go 100%. In fact that's not even really what we are talking about.

I understand about martial arts not allowing face contact, but you had the benefit of a teacher reminding you to guard your face, I assume. But what if there is no instructor, experienced practitioner, or other training partner. You must rely on your training and how good it was. Limiting your targets are fine once you know them all and can cover your own. My personal opinion, no one should be doing any type of free form anything until at least a year into training under professional supervision. Some may rush it. MMA folks, judo, TaeKwanDo go right into the competitive aspect because they are primarily sports. But, isn't one of the Jedi traits "patience"?

What We are noticing is that there is little consideration of the upper half of the body with many folks showing their free forms. It is obvious to VorNach and I that it is most likely because they have never had a reason to guard up there. The net effect is what the Chinese call "Flower Fist, Embroidered leg", which means, looks good, not much use. The reality of this stuff is that taking it slow and measured and not trying to leap right into dueling and free forms.

The reason we mention this is that most of these people do not have access to professional instruction and are doing this completely unsupervised. This is a concern to us as we want to keep everyone safe and uninjured. I am of the rather starch opinion that head gear and gloves are the bare minimum of protection for dueling especially with folks who have little or no training or experience.

We are also seeing a lot of swinging for the blades, which is what can cause accidental injury if and when they miss. These are all things that if I was instructing them in person I could repeat ad nuaseum as they practiced, but as I said, we have no direct access to them.

Maybe because most folks don't have to deal with insurance like I do. 

[Master Lucien Kane]

Oh definitely, and most people don't have an instructor telling them how to hold their blade or to be on guard. By bringing it up though here on the forums my guess is that many people will at least have it on their minds now. Well those that read it will anyways.

It also seems like Djem So often favors a high guard anyways

[Solinus]

The reason we mention this is that most of these people do not have access to professional instruction and are doing this completely unsupervised.

This is me. 100%. This is why I grab hold of the content here and absorb every aspect, every suggestion, and be as safe as I can. I have found that my own personal problem is that I have a depth perception problem with my eyes, so I can't gauge accurately where my blade is at. Because of this, I have to be extra careful and hold back. It's also partly why I train alone.

Lucien, remember when we met and you were talking to me about reach? I fully understand exactly what you meant. If just hard for me to put it into practice. It takes time and I am sure I will learn, but it'll be slower than those who have professional instruction.

Thinking about taking a few Kendo classes at the San Diego Kendo Club at SDSU. Just need to find some time for it. Hoping this will help in the long run.

[Master VorNach]

Bad habits can be formed by limiting your striking targets, but really by sparring in general you can develop bad habits.
I've done a martial arts for years that doesn't allow face contact... and really any time you spar you aren't, or shouldn't be going full force with intent to do harm.

Proper instruction certainly can help overcome some of the shortcomings that are part of a practice/training setting. I wouldn't dream of encouraging anyone to go full force in a practice setting, except possibly for some very limited situations. However the closer you can come in practice to full application the more developed your technique will become. The circumstances of your training environment will dictate what the safest approach is.

Very early in my martial arts "career" I was taking a tai-ji class in high school, being taught by instructors from a local martial arts school. It was taught in my high school so I would show up in my street clothes (small school, no gym, no lockers). At one point my teacher talked for awhile about "proper clothing" (sweats or some such) and how by not wearing them I was limiting my progress because I could not practice things through their full range of motion.

I'm not saying that maximizing your realism in training isn't smart, I am saying that proper instruction can prepare you for these things, and squash bad habits before they become a habit.
Anyways, I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that if you don't have headgear, and you have to train at 40%; you can still get quality training, and avoid developing bad habits.

Absolutely, with good instruction you can avoid bad habits however if you're limiting what applications you practice you're also missing out on a significant part of the style.
To elaborate on Darth_Nonymous' comment: "Limiting your targets are fine once you know them all and can cover your own. "
If you don't practice a technique it will be difficult to develop it and challenging to overcome it when it's used against you.

The point of my original post was two-fold:
Encourage people to invest in safety gear (I will never tire of banging this particular drum).
By having safety gear allow them to practice and develop their style more comprehensively.

Oh definitely, and most people don't have an instructor telling them how to hold their blade or to be on guard. By bringing it up though here on the forums my guess is that many people will at least have it on their minds now. Well those that read it will anyways.

The horse is at the watering trough....   

It also seems like Djem So often favors a high guard anyways

My interpretation certainly does though I'm going to be bringing some focus to low guards in the near future as well.

[Darth Nonymous]

Here is a little something I wrote as a lark.


"Fifth Formula: Shien Djem So- Krayt Dragon

The Spoken Force is the way of the Krayt Dragon. Listen with your whole being to hear the question before it is asked. Speak the answer before the enemy knows the question.

Shien to yell. Bring your fight to the enemy that throws rocks. Once the rock is thrown, it is anyone’s weapon.

Djem So to Debate. Engage your enemy in conversation at saber edge. Point counter point, but attack his argument before he makes it."

My philosophical underpinning, that I am using for Form V. I am focusing more on Shien, the earlier of the two incarnations.