Saberlab report: Duel wielding and saber staff in combat.

[Master Lucien Kane]

My bit on staff and dual wielding. Knowing the weakness of your weapon is key; Staff is not better than single dual is not better than staff.

Try not to fall into what I like to call the "rock paper scissors" misconception with Lightsaber variants.... or weapon variants for that matter.

The effectiveness of a weapon lies in the effectiveness of the wielder. I.E. the more you practice with a weapon no matter how unorthodox it is the better you will get at utilizing that weapon.

Master Nonymous, I have been training in Bo staff since I was 15 ish. I agree that the techniques don't directly translate well. However with a little bit of modification (This takes about a week or so of figuring out) You can translate the bulk of your techniques into saber staff techniques...

The obvious points

Don't let the blades touch you...
many bo staff disciplines teach you to allow the staff to touch your body, and to use your body as a fulcrum to change the bo's direction. Obviously with a saber staff, you can't exactly do this. So modify the techniques so that you're changing direction without touching your body... I use my arms and the hilt to change direction.

Don't shift your grip off of the hilt
Once again, obvious, but don't do it... find the length of your hilt, get used to it, and shift your grip within that area... This is why I love the Ultrasabers phantasm.... it's a two foot hilt, and it works perfectly for all the techniques I do with a saber staff. 

[Darth Nonymous]

My bit on staff and dual wielding. Knowing the weakness of your weapon is key; Staff is not better than single dual is not better than staff.

Try not to fall into what I like to call the "rock paper scissors" misconception with Lightsaber variants.... or weapon variants for that matter.

The effectiveness of a weapon lies in the effectiveness of the wielder. I.E. the more you practice with a weapon no matter how unorthodox it is the better you will get at utilizing that weapon.

Master Nonymous, I have been training in Bo staff since I was 15 ish. I agree that the techniques don't directly translate well. However with a little bit of modification (This takes about a week or so of figuring out) You can translate the bulk of your techniques into saber staff techniques...

The obvious points

Don't let the blades touch you...
many bo staff disciplines teach you to allow the staff to touch your body, and to use your body as a fulcrum to change the bo's direction. Obviously with a saber staff, you can't exactly do this. So modify the techniques so that you're changing direction without touching your body... I use my arms and the hilt to change direction.

Don't shift your grip off of the hilt
Once again, obvious, but don't do it... find the length of your hilt, get used to it, and shift your grip within that area... This is why I love the Ultrasabers phantasm.... it's a two foot hilt, and it works perfectly for all the techniques I do with a saber staff. 

I am aware of how to translate these techniques, but fighting with the double ended saber has little in common with fighting with the staff. One entire range of motion is completely impossible because of the second blade. The position of the second blade makes it impossible to follow through enough to make certain techniques effective. your horizontal range is compromise greatly and so many techniques with the staff (of this length) depend on that ROM.

If however, you view the weapon as a double bladed sword (the chinese analog is called a "cicada wing blade") the limitation in the weapon give way to opportunities.

We are the last people to get into the rock paper scissors view, and of course it is the wielder, this all goes without saying. What we have tried to do is put two rather equally match swordsmen with equal amounts of experience with each type to explore the raw mechanics of these weapons, not to box them or place them in any area of value.This is data, our experience exploring gathering that data. But we have both fought extensively with the one staff and can safely say this was nothing similar.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Definitely, and your breakdown of the weapons was extensive and well thought out. I've had some extensive dueling sessions with, and against saber staffs, and with, and against dual wielding.

They all offer advantages and disadvantages, you and Vor Nach are well aware of them, and seem to be overcoming them. Especially with your Chinese martial arts background I would expect no less. The Chinese came up with some sick weapons, and employed them masterfully.

Anyways, I love that this discussion has finally been posted, if I ever get back into my groove (going to Texas has really thrown my schedule off) I'll get some videos posted.

I also agree that one of the big advantages of the saberstaff is it's imposing nature. Once an opponent overcomes that, it can really turn the tables.... Watch TPM, when Obi Wan finally get's over the whole double blade thing... (took his master dying for that one to happen) He was able to counter it quite skillfully. Granted some would say that from a cannon point of view that was due to his anger. I like to think he just wasn't scared of the weapon anymore.

[Darth Nonymous]

Indeed Master Kane,

I will have to agree that the saber staff's (or 2x ended saber) biggest advantage is intimidation. Not only is it hard to parry each of those strikes coming in successively, but the weapon looks longer than it is.  Since it protrudes from both ends, the effect is that it is a good half meter longer than it is. That causes a ton of distancing opportunities, rhythm sets, and feints.

I would say that if you even hope to fight against it, that is the first obstacle.

[Master VorNach]

I agree that the techniques don't directly translate well. However with a little bit of modification (This takes about a week or so of figuring out) You can translate the bulk of your techniques into saber staff techniques...
Don't shift your grip off of the hilt. Once again, obvious, but don't do it... find the length of your hilt, get used to it, and shift your grip within that area... This is why I love the Ultrasabers phantasm.... it's a two foot hilt, and it works perfectly for all the techniques I do with a saber staff. 

This was part of our discussion on the function and practicality of the weapon. After what we found I think calling it a saber*staff* is not an accurate description of the weapon and it's functional use. The limitation on changing your grip really negates a vast section of staff fighting principles and techniques which require grip changing in order to apply them.
I made a light hearted reference to treating it more like a 2 handed sword with a reallylong butt-spike. This was less of a joke than it may have come off as sounding like. While it is certainly possible to adapt staff techniques to this weapon I don't know if it's the most productive way to interpret it's use.

I also agree that one of the big advantages of the saberstaff is it's imposing nature.

This was another conversation point we had. I realized that despite there not being any significant range advantage over the single saber I was using I was still holding to a further range and spending more time moving out of range than it normally my approach. Once I realized that it stated to become easier to close the gap and (try to) take advantage of the weak points of the weapon.

It was a fun and interesting experiment to run through.

[Master VorNach]

I'd really like to see some video of it in a dueling situation, I'm curious how fluid it can be.

I don't think we came away with any useable video from that afternoon, hopefully another day.

In terms of fluidity my experience was that it's not really different than a single blade. The actual bouts tended to be much shorter than single on single, simply because the followup strikes from the staff are so fast. With a single blade your counter attack or riposte requires your blade to come all the way back around. Using the double-blade has the 2nd blade coming into position for your followup strike at almost the same time that you've negated the attack.

I'd be interested to see 2 people using saber-staves against each other....

[Darth Nekesus]

Master Nonymous,

would I be able to become proficient with a Saber Staff or duel wielding without any prior experience or learning single bladed combat first?  If so would you be able to teach me?

[Darth Nonymous]

Master Nonymous,

would I be able to become proficient with a Saber Staff or duel wielding without any prior experience or learning single bladed combat first?  If so would you be able to teach me?

My personal opinion is to learn a single bladed saber first. That being said, i don't think it is impossible. But it would be tons easier if you knew what you were doing with one blade.

If you can get here, or figure out some way to get together, i would be happy to help you get some of this stuff down.

[JediShadow]

If you can get here, or figure out some way to get together, i would be happy to help you get some of this stuff down.

This right here is why I love this forum.

[Darth Nonymous]

Here is a demo of the cicada wing blade. (the sun and moon blade is similar with more pronounced curved blades. they re often confused).

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXgjjRjQpTI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXgjjRjQpTI</a>

[Darth Nekesus]

well where at in Ann Arbor do you teach because I only live about 30 minutes away in Canton and I'm sure we could find some place to meet I'll just have to talk with my mom before we make anything definite

[Volund Starfire]

In my experience, most martial arts do instruct in the use of the staff (bo or jo) before teaching a sword technique.  However, for the use of choreography, this is not truly necessary.  Choreography is supposed to appear to be combat, but does not include the randomness that combat often breeds.

With that said, using a staff technique for a saberstaff is as difficult as using a pistol-firing technique for firing a shotgun.  As was pointed out before, most staff techniques involve holding the ends of the staff, bracing the ends of the staff across the body, and blocking with the center of the staff.

It is not impossible, though.  One of my good friends is actually modifying a TKD staff technique using only the middle of the staff.  Alternatively, a saberpike can use a staff technique, but would be more appropriate with a naginata-form.

In all, it is a good idea to learn a single saber first before moving on to others.  This is mostly to get the basics of movement down.  But that’s just my opinion.

[Darth Nonymous]

" ....using a staff technique for a saberstaff is as difficult as using a pistol-firing technique for firing a shotgun."

I could not have put it better. Point for you.

[Master VorNach]

well where at in Ann Arbor do you teach because I only live about 30 minutes away in Canton and I'm sure we could find some place to meet I'll just have to talk with my mom before we make anything definite

We usually meet on Friday late afternoons / early evenings, but don't let that limit your planning. Nonymous has a somewhat more flexible schedule than I do so if the two of you find a time go for it.

[Arioch Zamfal]

2. The saber "staff" is a tragic misnomer. Fighting with it, almost no staff techniques were really that applicable because one cannot grab the ends.

Years ago I achieved a rank of 3rd degree brown belt with testing scheduled for my black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do.  Due to my sensi being arrested for battery charges against his pregnant wife, I never tested and became very disillusioned over it all due to having put this man up on a petastool.  I had however been training with his partner at the dojo in the bo and he was confident that once I recieved my black belt I could easily attain proficiency ranking with the bo.  Unfortnately, I walked away from everything at that time.  So when I had gotten into custom sabers I was pretty pumped about getting a staff saber.  Ordered it last week and it came today, but in the meantime been watching alot of internet video of some impressive handlers.  I was watching Ray Park doing some spinning and this very point above that Mastor Nonymous said hit me.  Most of the stuff that I mess around doing with broom sticks and the like wouldn't work in saber dueling because the base is very limited.  Even the most basic sweep requires a positioning of the hands that you really cant do if you are holding to the blades being a lightsaber blade.  But man, its still fun to whip around!!!