Saber Forum

Just curious, did it seem like to any of you that in Star Wars VII Rey used Form 2 (Makashi) when fighting Kylo Ren? She made many lunges/jabs - moves generally associated with Makashi.


"Makashi was described as elegant and focused, and was based on balance and footwork to outmaneuver opponents. Fluidity, precision, and economy of motion were relied on, rather than strength, with Form II bladework heavily utilizing jabs and light cuts rather than hack and slash movements. Overall, the form was at its fore when engaged in combat against a single enemy duelist."
- Taken from "Form II" http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II/Legends


I mean, I understand that she'd probably never used a lightsaber before, but you've got to admit she did seem coordinated.
Anyways, feel free to give me your thoughts/opinions/agreements/disagreements on the matter



Iram

It really looked like (and this was originally said by someone else here) that she was fighting like Luke in ESB...or was it RoTJ?

She was definitely proficient in the use of her staff and I would imagine that most of her coordination came from that. On top of her adapting those skills, using stabs and jabs is a good way to keep your opponent in front of and away from you.

I think that she was doing the best with what she had. Also, she made great use of her agility to move around the environment. On the other end of the spectrum a certain point it looked like Kylo threw discipline to the wind and just started hacking and slashing like Jason Voorhees; by that I mean swinging his saber like a machete as opposed to an elegant weapon.

RoTJ I believe, and yes it was interesting to note that after she (apparently) injured Kylo he abandoned all principle and focused on killing her. I can see what you mean by she was doing the best she could with what she had.

yeah kylo did drop all swordmanship for just cutting wildly.....if he were a lumber jack then he was spot on considering the number of trees he felled

I don't think she was using Makashi. I think she was following the Neo-Zorro methodology.

Original Zorro - "Do you even know how to use a sword?"

Nu-Zorro - "Of course... The pointy end goes into the other man..."

It looked to me like Kylo was using Form 5, due to the strong, aggressive way he was blocking her attacks and returning the energy back onto her to drive her back and demoralize her. It was obvious he was holding back, though, because he was ordered to bring her to Snoke, so he needed to keep her alive. Very much like how Vader started against Luke in ESB, who was supposed to bring him to Sidious. Once Rey focused, Kylo was caught off guard. Rey then felt, instead of thought, and just went with her instincts and did whatever worked. The specific form seemed to be nonexistent. Ren, due to his injuries, surprise, and lack of focus wasn't able to maintain his form and was beaten easily.

:D :D :D :D

Very true lol

All very true, though I was thinking Kylo may have been using a Form 5/Form 7-mix . My reasoning: 1. He (as you've stated) manipulated Rey's attacks and turned them against her and 2. He overall fought relentlessly not caring much for defense which in the end was his undoing.

I thought Form 7 at first too. I think his fight against Finn was more Form 7, no defense at all. Against Rey it was more 5 than 7, though.

TRUE! I didn't think of it that way.

I think she was just fighting like a noob....which she is.

She may have been a noob to lightsaber combat, but I think that all her years as a scavenger has given her combat experience that has allowed her to hold her own.  I can't wait to see how she progresses in Episode VIII

Yes, but fighting with a staff(her weapon of choice) and fighting with a lightsaber are completely different. Two different weapons.

I totally agree that they are different weapons and fighting styles, however when your life is on the line, you will fight to live, which is why she ultimately prevailed.  Kylo got lazy and disregarded her and she knew that if she didn't fight her hardest she was dead. 

I'm not so sure she was a complete noob. I have a theory that I won't get into here, but I think she did have some basic, rudimentary lightsaber and Force knowledge. It had been suppressed and reactivated through her interactions with Ren and the saber. That is what allowed her to fight with at least some technique and skill.

also remember she is losing right up until kylo says about teaching her the ways of the dark side, rey seems to be like "oh yeah the force I can use that" and then opens her mind to the force, I suppose it starts to guide her hand in a similar way to how the force lets jedi anticipate the course of blaster bolts for deflecting them

He'd also been shot by this point too.

And his dominant shoulder had been slashed by Finn. I thought they did a great job of making it plausible that Rey could best him. There were a lot of outside influences and factors that affected the outcome, and I'm sure in Episode VIII we will learn more of what made Rey such a formidable opponent despite the experience difference between the two.

Hmmm...if you're thinking what I'm thinking, I'd say that's a possibility.

To the point about her weapon of choice versus the saber, do you think it might make her a saberstaff natural if/when she starts training in earnest?

"Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?" "Yes, Brain, but if we change all of the P's to O's, my name would be Oinky."  Sorry, but I couldn't resist a good Pinky and the Brain quote.

I think a saber staff would be more natural to her, because she seemed very comfortable with it, but she also seemed pretty natural with the saber, too. I think she'll end up using the saber, primarily, but she'll have her staff as a backup. Kind of like how Luke didn't hesitate to use a blaster. He grew up with one and knew how to use it, but the saber ultimately be came his weapon of choice. I think fans have too strong a connection with that saber (and Luke's green one) to just let them go away. And I think this trilogy is definitely being made with the fans in mind more so than the prequels. So, I think they'll both stay.

HA HA, yes!

WHOA!! I hadn't even thought of this. That would make Rey even more awesome.

Don't forget something along the lines if the Saber Yari; that is even closer to mirroring her staff.

So what do you think her chosen blade color would be?

Guardian Blue? Sentinel Yellow? Consular Green? Viridian? Adegan Silver? DVA?

Personally, I think the Adegan Silver would suit her best.

One can always hope for Sentinel Yellow, but since Adegan Silver--or rather, white--is canon now, I'm with you Jev.

IDK, I can see Rey with Consular Green.

She's gonna have red, just cuz it's flashy and awesome. :P

As to the title of this thread, I agree with TJ. Much of the ability she showed in this movie was more the Force guiding her actions, based off her will. 10-1 says she was just using Shii Cho.


I had this thought as well. Considering that she is already comfortable, NTM quite capable, using a staff, I think it would only be appropriate that they continue with that. Give her a saber staff. Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel partially slighted that the only saber staff we got to see on the big screen lasted maybe 10 min, then we never saw it again.   :(

True, when she fought she did use wide sweeping attacks -- which are mainly used in Shii Cho.

This thought dawned on me today...

There has been a lot of conversation about Rey's fighting ability and how she could do what she did with no training.  Remember what happened when she found BB-8?  She was able to fend off a mounted creature using only a knife.  But, they clearly knew each other, based on her dialogue, and he wanted nothing to do with her.  Perhaps her fighting abilities were a bit more well known that we think.  Kind of like how Obi-Wan scares off the Tusken Raiders by just showing up.  They knew of what Anakin did to one of their entire tribes, and they didn't want to mess with him.  The jedi's reputation preceded Obi-Wan, just like Rey's reputation preceded her.

Just a thought.

It was definitely channeling the ESB fight with Luke vs. Vader, but in this case the villain wasn't necessarily a master.  I wouldn't attach any Forms to this fight, since it's pretty clear that Kylo Ren had minimal training with a lightsaber.  He had a bit of experience and was fighting more on raw instinct, which was Rey's approach as well (minus the rage).

Oh, and I definitely hope she keeps the graflex... it would be awesome.

I noticed that as well when I saw it again yesterday. He seemed to fight like I and I'd imagine the average forum members does. He clearly knows how to use a saber, and is comfortable handling it, but doesn't have any true training or actual fighting style. Everything he does he does because it seems good at the time.

when he wasn't playing lumberjack I spotted a few long sword moves in Kylo's fighting. Rey was, as said earlier, doing a zorro "point end in the other guy"

The first half is an excellent hypothesis. Although, Obi-Wan didn't scare them off by just showing up. He used the Force to mimic the cry of a krayt dragon. I think that noise is more than enough to make any Tatooine local run first and ask questions later. Also, I don't think anyone survived the "Skywalker Massacre".


"Do you know how to use that?"
"Yeah. Pointy end goes into the other man."

Beat you to it...

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=26818.msg399329#msg399329

And so it has come full circle. :P :P :P :P :P

I agree about the Krayt Dragon, but also, remember how the jawas jumped when they saw Luke as he and Owen were picking out droids?  I think the legend/story/lore survived the massacre, even if no one else did, and the fear got transferred to Obi-Wan and Luke, due to their backgrounds.  After all, someone had to discover the camp and realize what happened.  The locals were afraid of the Krayt Dragon, yes, but they were also afraid of the jedi, and they knew who Obi-Wan and Luke were.

I just always assumed Jawas were jumpy by nature, as well as from usually being up to sticky-fingered no good.

Both points are probably true, but Lucas makes it a point to show them jump and flee when Luke arrives.  They don't do that any other time.  That has to be an intentional point that, to me, was clarified and exposited in AOTC.  That was one of my first thoughts when seeing the massacre scene.  "That's why the Tusken Raiders  and jawas flee in the presence of a jedi."  And, Anakin used the jawas to help find the camp.  So, I imagine they figured it out, too.  It was one of the more subtle points of the prequels that I thought he (Lucas) nailed.

Touché.

However, it's kind of a chicken-egg thing. In the OT, especially ANH, they present the Force as an elective ability. As though Luke's parentage had no bearing on his ability to use the Force. Similar to how Finn radically suggests using the Force to free Rey. (Great seen BTW) "You must learn the ways of the Force, if you're to come with me, to Alderaan." This line makes it sound that like all Luke has to do is study and...Bam...insta-Jedi.

I believe that the EU and prequels established later that it's something you're born with. Although I hated the concept of the midichlorians <wretch> I understood the need for a device that could be quantified and equated to "strength" in the Force. I give credit that Lucas may have been trying to hint that Luke was Force sensitive, but I highly doubt that he knew how far this thing would go, considering that he made ANH as a stand-alone film.

I still say Jawas are just jumpy. Like Chihuahuas.

Yeah Jawas are neurotic in general.

As far as the fight goes, I noticed Rey's technique was mostly stab, run, stab, run. Kylo's was mostly angry slashing and blocking Rey's stabs and jabs. It almost seemed like an untrained rookie vs a Novice with SOME training(though I suspect some of this goes back to Ren's previous injury.). It'll be interesting to see how a fight between them turns out after they both have a bit of training.

I agree with the chicken and egg analogy. I just wonder how much Lucas used the OT to setup things for the prequels. For example, did he watch individual scenes and ask, "Why/how did that happen?" In this case, did he (or other writers) ask the questioms, "Why would those creatures react at the sight of the jedi?" If he was looking to fill the gap and answer those questions, then I think the massacre scene makes sense both in Anakin's turn to the dark side and connecting it to those scenes in ANH.  Again, we only see them reaction when Luke appears. I once heard an author say that when describing a scene, you don't mention the shotgun over the mantle unless someone takes it and blows someone else away with it.  That particular scene just seems too intentional of a cut, to me.

Personally I think you're looking too deep into the behavior of Jawas, but to each their own.

However, this is the aspect of why I believe that SW belongs to the fans and not LF or Disney. Nerds like us that desperately try to iron out any wrinkles in continuity. This is the biggest reason I was so bent out of shape about the EU purge. There was a lot of hard work that went into creating the Original Canon (shall hence forth be referred to as the OC), and for Disney to just throw it all away instead of properly grooming it is an outright kick in the balls.

Well, I can see them purging post-RotJ, as they wanted to tell an all new story. It makes sense because watching a movie based on a series of books would create an all new set of problems (i.e. - "Why did they change this?" and "They left this part out which would have been really awesome.").

However, where they went wrong, in my opinion, is the purging of pre-movie and concurrent stuff.

In my mind, Revan and The Exile will ALWAYS be canon.

I heartily agree with this. The Bane trilogy was awesome. And Plagueis, and Cloak of Deception. And nothing holds a torch to TFU. But they could cut out the 2nd one. NTM, SWTOR is still very active online, has that been made "legend" as well?

I think they would be very smart to revise the parameters of the purge to only include post ROTJ and anything that just doesn't have a good fit in the continuity of the established canon. Like SW Demolition. (Old PS1 Twisted-Metal-esque game based on the SW univ.) The story behind it made no sense despite it being fun.

I guess I am not that bent out of shape over it, especially since I am a somewhat newer fan and not as attached to the EU.  Then again I also come from a Star Trek background where the idea of parallel universes is not a problem for me, so I tend to just shrug at reboots, changes in canon, etc., with the thought of, "OK, divergent timeline created...new place for me to play!"  I respect that not everybody approaches it the same way in either fandom, though.

they've kept elements of the EU from before the films, Malachor V is mentioned in the imperial handbook and the events of the Mandalorian wars are in the bounty hunter guide, which are all cannon as far as I know

XD

Once again, time to ask Kham-Ryn Man if those reference books are classified under new canon.

And that's the beautiful thing about the Prequels! It answers so many questions that arise when you watch the OT.

All of them are unfortunately labeled under the "Legends" classification.

However, there are things within that are still considered canon on their own.

Let me guess. Anything that is a direct reference to material used in the movies or TCW?

Rey I think was just going on instinct. Just a "Hey. This is a lightsaber. Let me use it so I don't die." Kind of mentality. Although she looked composed and calm I am sure in her mind she was think "Oh crap. If I make one wrong move I am dead.

As for Kylo Ren I agree with everyone saying that he used a mixture of Form V and VII. Especially VII when he decimated Finn in mere seconds.

He used Form V in hopes of defending off against the lightsaber due to the surprise of Rey's better combat prowess then Finn. But he was mostly only using Form V because he was slowly getting weaker from his injury by the hands of Chewbacca. The only reason Kylo lost was due to losing blood from his previous injury and the surprise and shock of seeing that Rey was capable of wielding a lightsaber. Nothing more.