Saber Forum

(a topic that was spawned by Rory's question "what do you do against multiple opponents")...


First and foremost, a couple of starting points for the sake of the argument...

1) I'm going to "limit" it for the moment to assuming 2 vs. 1, and not bother with >2 vs. 1 for a moment
2) I'm going to assume that each combatant has SOME level of competency... but are also not necessarily "experts" with swordplay/combat
3) I'm going to START with the assumption that we ~WON'T~ figure in using terrain, obstacles, positioning, etc. ... for the moment... :)
4) I'm going to assume people aren't talking about choreography / filmed sequences... for the moment... :)
5) *EDIT* I'm assuming also that you don't have UNLIMITED space, but sure, some space to move about.  Something reasonable--not an entire football field to just run around and go hogwild within, lol...

2 vs. 1

It's VERY unlikely that a single fighter can "handle" 2 fighters... except maybe in the movies, but--like I said, we're not "going there" (yet).  In fact, if the 2 guys ganging up on the 1 guy have ANY competency... the battle would be over in as short a time as any fencing or Kendo style point/score/attack... probably sooner.

The problem is that once the single fighter takes ANY action... all the other two fighters need to do is act in unison.  This could mean one waits for the attack from the single fighter while the other attacks that single fighter... or that they both attack at the same time... or whatever.

All you have to do is think logically.  It's EXTREMELY unlikely that a single opponent could handle multiple opponents... unless the two (or more) all acted somewhat stupidly, with poor timing, poor speed, and "waited" until the other was "done" taking action (again, bad timing).

So, bottom line... it's just plain SILLY + ludicrous.  Looks good in movies and in staged combat (if done correctly), though!!  :)


180 degree (or less!) concept

Ok... so... let's get a bit more creative.  Let's say the single fighter WAS able to use his environment well... and put the 2 fighters in a place where they can only attack from ONE side.  In other words--you know how when you're facing... uh... well... forward (lol)... you have a sort of "cone" / range of vision?  And if you're fairly astute, you can sort of handle (nearly) 180 degrees in front of you?  That is--you can keep TRACK of (nearly) 180 degrees in front of you? ...

OK!  So NOW I'd say the singular fighter has a chance!  But... uh-oh... sorry, guys--it's still a VERY SLIM chance, based on the above info (2 vs. 1).  Or is that a "fat chance"?  Wait... how can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same thing.  Never mind... ;)  Anyhow... the only thing the singular fighter can do now... is hope to catch BOTH fighters in an action that can be defended "at the same time"... strike down one of his foes... and pray to the Gods it is effective.

But again--even the SLIGHTEST mistake could be fatal.  Again... if we assume the 2 fighters aren't completely idiotic, lumbering lummuxes.


Actual obstacles

Ok, it's obvious that you can at least attempt to use walls, beams, trees, higher ground and "1-way in, 1-way out" passages to your advantage.  If you CAN--do so.  But it's unlikely that situation will magically present itself at the most opportune moment... so... uh... yeah.  Good luck.

I do have one last concept about this to share (ok, maybe two)... but I'm going to wait for NCSCS DVD#2 to do that, hehehe.

--Novastar

Holding back a bit? Sounds like one more reason to see what you're hiding up your sleeve with the next DVD!

Size matters not. Chance is chance. Be it big or small, it's still a gamble.

There is A chance when facing multiple combatents , you have to manuver alot and always try to keep one opponent between you and the others. This is possible but it takes alot of situational awareness. Once that opponent is taken care of single out another and keep that opponent between you and the remaining opponentsand so on.....

Couple of things to consider, two sabers is a combat multiplier, and will help against two foes. Keeping one opponent in front of the other is really effective, but costs a lot of energy.

Other than that, I've been doing a lot of multiple opponent battles, but it's been with my Jr. High kids, so it's not quite as difficult as facing off against two of my well trained friends... Still, some of these Jr. Highers are pretty fast, and they try every strategy to get a hit in on me. If have a vast knowledge of footwork, how to dodge a blade, and how to defend and counter. Combined with a lot of energy and a little speed, you can effectively defend against two or more opponents. It's difficult, and takes a lot of time to train to, but it's doable.

That being said all the concerns Nova brought up are very real, and very difficult obstacles to overcome. lol

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/Greywulf2112/SaberForum/n1504590448_30340713_942a.jpg)

Pivot theory... if one opponent is slower on his feet than you and not bright enough to move accordingly, play that opponent as a pivot, moving laterally at all times and staying in contact with the pivot while denying consistent contact to the other opponent. The constant engagement will wear out the pivot and the constant movement to get in to a position to engage you will wear out the other opponent. Stamina is key in employing this strategy and your blade work against the pivot must be clean and patient. You're trying to frustrate them into making a mistake and giving you a freebie so you can take one out and move into a one on one with the remaining opponent. I used this tactic in our rather insane "gauntlet match" to great effect on a couple occasions.

I would love to see people's videos on their experiences with this kind of thing!  That would be sweet.

That being said... I should have mentioned in the initial thread (I'll probably just edit it)... I would also base all this on the people involved having somewhat "limited space".  As in, you're not actually out in an open field with endless amounts of room to run around, be free, and generally prolong things, heheh.

I mean hey... ONE way to do it is to simply stay out of range long enough to TIRE opponent #1 or #2 or #3, etc. ... and there ya go, one less guy to deal with... but... that also means that YOU have to be in better aerobic shape than ALL of them!  :)

As soon as I can get a couple of my friends together I will video it! However getting them together is the real trick isn't it? lol

I also had a fun one in limited space... small backyard and I actually backed in to a narrow spot ala 300. They couldn't flank me and had to coordinate their attacks very well to get me. We actually did it twice since they wanted a rematch when I broke them off the first time. They got me on the rematch.

You guys got me thinking with your talk of 300... I just pictured a Jedi Knight with a big cortosis shield and a lightsaber pike taking on a bunch of Sith.  Oh man I'm a dork...

Ok so I won't derail this topic, I'll add that I agree with Novastar.  It is highly unlikely that one person fighting two moderately skilled people with sabers will be able to survive.  It depends entirely on skill level - I have faced two opponents rather successfully, but I admit that they had very little swordsmanship experience.  Once I had to face Artorius and our friend Belron... that was MUCH more challenging because Artorius at least knew how to take advantage of the situation, being a very experienced swordsman and martial artist.

I think I am more of a dork Nero since I've been watching Zorro from the 1950"s on youtube like none stop   :D :P  :D. The reason why i mention him is because in every episode he uses the skills that Nova states Keeping a 180 degree view of the enemy, using his surrounding to keep the enemy at bay and also he is the a far superior swordsman than any of the soldiers that go after him
start at 3:11 to see the fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqDgtE_JNI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvqDgtE_JNI#)

Though in the real world like Nova states fat chance wining a 1 Vs 2 or more duel which i agree  :P

Zorro doesn't count. He can do ANYTHING.

Hmm, Zorro with a Lightsaber and blaster...Hi Ho Millennium Falcon, Awaaay.   Back on track though, in real life the one against two is s.o.l. unless the one is extremely lucky.  Or maybe has gotten dvd 2 before the other two (ha).

It's all about what standard you train to, but that's where skill level comes in, if you constantly train to a certain standard you will have an advantage over those who do not train to that same standard.

I like you!

I made my wife read this, she thought it was fantastic.

Thanks for tips.

dealing with multiple opponents is generally a lost cause, keeping in mind all the points Nova stated earlier, I think the best hope for survival is manipulating psychology through the opponents emotional state. if the initial ambush fails, as long as your CARDIO is waaaaay better than your opponent(s) stamina, every moment the single combatant can prolong the fight with convincing skill erodes the confidence of the attackers, especially if you can manage to eliminate one of the them. 

On another note--to address the awesome (yet totally unrealistic--duh) Zorro movies... or ANY fight movies for that matter--notice how:

* The attackers all "wait" for Zorro...
* The attackers all approach from a very tight angle, mostly in front of Zorro...
* The attackers make NO moves to surround Zorro...
* The attackers all... uh... pretty much thrust right into the same central line... en masse... all at the same time, heheh (when attacking "as a group") -- which essentially turns them into "one attacker"

But yeah, the "coolness factor" of 10 dudes all thrusting and Zorro parrying them all + trapping them all and then escaping/retreating after bonking a few in the ballz or onz da headz... yah, it's fun times for a movie!  Fun choreo.  :)

All it would take is for even *ONE* of those fools to feint... or to attack an entirely DIFFERENT line/target... and poor Zorro would be wearing that black shroud permanently... :)

Heheheh... but really, don't let me take the *FUN* out of fight choreo!!  After all... in my opinion... THAT is what is most exciting and fun about martial ARTS... it's why "ART" is part of the term.  And hey... maybe BStone would agree with me... umm... I hate to tell you all this, but... a "realistic" fencing match is NOT all that exciting to watch (for the untrained eye).  It's not super "dramatic" (most of the time), and people get hit very very very VERY often!

Case and point, I'm just going to randomly search y-tube for some saber fencing footy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKUEZIrDVT8#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKUEZIrDVT8#ws)

A few quick points:

* You may or may not understand WHAT is going on... so... don't be too quick to judge...
* You might agree with me that it's... uh... fairly "boring" to watch--although I don't mean that as a saber fencer... I mean that as pretending to be an "average joe blow sword movie enthusiast with little/no MA background"
* Pay close attention to the sheer distance/measure being used.  Some attacks fall short by millimeters... and it AIN'T because the attacker WANTED to fall short in many cases!  The defender "set the measure" juuuuuuuussstt right... :)
* There ARE indeed some conventional rules, but... look... one way you'd understand for ~ALL~ types of combat is simple: IT'S ABOUT HIT + DON'T BE HIT!!  The End.  Any action where a fighter hits another and is in turn NOT hit = perfection.  In my humble opinion, lol.  (actually that's just logic)

Enjoy!

Ahhh, the Mooks and their Chivalry. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MookChivalry (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MookChivalry)

The video was great, my best friend fences; but he's in WA so I don't get to see him fence.

Props fer the  Sabre post Master Nova. I agree. Modern fencing is NOT at all exciting to the untrained eye. I've known a few folks seemed to enjoy it, but its a rarity. That being said, I've been known to comb youtube for world cup and international competition vids because I love the subtlety and timing, and its important to stay current. 

My favorite is when they do an overhead strike, and whip the foil so it bends and just taps their opponents' head.

Snap! With a quickness.

Yeah. and by the way Nova, the touch at 6:02 is siiiiick.

Flicking!  There's a fun move.  Very niche though, especially depending on the director.  It was HUGE when it first was discovered, but then they changed the timing years ago and you saw use of it drop dramatically (I assume this was intentional).

Anyway, back on topic.  Novastar makes a great point that is often forgotten (even among fencers):  the highest levels of fencing are... I hate to say it... boring to the average person.  It's a funny dynamic because you learn the basics starting out, get more advanced and learn some fancy stuff, then once you get to Olympic level you're back to basics.  You don't see tricks like jumping and flicking and dodging too much in international tournaments, just great timing and perfect technique.  Cut out all the bs, and keep it simple. 

Of course this is basically the OPPOSITE of what you want in stage combat and whatnot - if your audience is bored then you've failed lol.  This is why fancy moves and flourishes and fighting one on thirty is done, you move away from practical and towards flashy.  This is not a bad thing, unless you intend to try these tactics in a real fight - but then again, who gets into swordfights nowadays?  Apart from us Star Wars dorks ;)

I suppose the only other way I can think of to fight on the up and up when you're outnumbered would be a reach advantage. I picked up a four foot polycarb blade somewhere along the way that I can control the battle space a bit better with. Its still a thin proposition, but it gives me an outside chance and at least makes it probable that I'll take an attacker with me.

I could not have really said it better, Nero.  The ART of martial combat... is much different from the "actual" martial combat.  It would not be "art" if it also didn't have some inherent beauty and "visual interest" to some extent.  It's funny, too... for as long as I can remember... people get EVERYTHING regarding martial sciences *WRONG*... they:

* Confuse the sport of boxing with "the reality" of a streetfight
* Confuse staged/filmed combat martial arts with the sport of fencing
* Confuse martial art forms and actions with swords... with the combative actions with swords
* Seem to always mention how certain things "can't be used in a real fight"... usually commenting in a very non-sequitur way, such as saying that while watching a Wu-Shu form on video

I mean... for me... it's sheer madness sometimes, lol!  I mean, I don't want to be on a soap box TOO long here, but... you RARELY see, for example:

* Someone makes some kind of painted art.  Let's say it's a mural.
* Another person comes up and says "Yeah, but would you get HIRED to put that on a VIDEO GAME box?!?  Huh?  Meh--what's the use of your mural..."

In this case, one is art FOR ART'S SAKE + EXPRESSION... and the other is art AS A MEANS TO AN END (in this case, payoff + prestige + whatever video game).

So... I don't mean to get the topic all bent out of shape, but... it's simply about UNDERSTANDING "what piece of the puzzle goes where".

* You don't (solely) teach staged combat to someone if they mean to spar another person...
* You don't (solely) teach sport boxing to someone if they mean to do a "solo" martial arts exhibition...
* and you don't (solely) teach sport fencing to someone if they (god forbid!) are looking for a more "traditional" outlook on "what a duel REALLY felt like"!

That all being said... ALL MARTIAL ARTS ARE VALUABLE.  :)  Some in "less" or "more" important ways though to the INDIVIDUAL...

YOU may not enjoy ________, but I do.
I may not enjoy ____, but YOU do.

The important thing is... to understand where each art fits in!  Don't use a display sword for a fencing match, right?  :P

Alright, enough of all that...

"Take what is useful, Discard what is useless and Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee The Tao of Jeet Kun Do

It's all valuable depending on what you choose to do with it.

Thats what I got out of that Master Nova.

Awwww yeeeeaah.  Someone quotin' da Bruce--words of wisdom for SURE.  :)  Also... I certainly hope that is PRECISELY what people do with what Caine and I have put together with NCSCS.  Use what works... don't use what you cannot.

That being said... it's often hard to determine just what IS "useless"... especially if you lack the knowledge of the overall picture of things.  For example... I've had students "stop using" a certain fencing action.  I'd notice over some time.  I'd ask why they don't use (for example) the change-beat (or circular beat) anymore.  They'd say every time they used it, it didn't work...

Then (as you might imagine)... I check their form... TIMING (important!)... usually something is wrong.  Or even if you're VERY EXCELLENT with form, people... NOT EVERY ACTION YOU TRY WILL "SUCCEED" 100% of the time!!  :)

So the learning THERE was... just because something doesn't work for you... doesn't mean it's no good.  Especially if you've not yet tried something like 50-100 times first...

And even then... SOME things take ~MORE~ than 100 tries to "get right"...

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<-- starts thinking about b-twist... lol... *sigh*   ::)

Nero and I are sitting here agreeing that you Master Novastar are one of the most down to earth, knowledgable and impressive individuals we have found on the forums and we wish we lived closer to you.  Being a martial artists I constantly quote Bruce Lee and always appreciate it when someone accurately represents his thoughts.

Keep up the great work Master Novastar!

I feel this video is a perfect example of what Master Nova is talking about.

This is Tony Jaa in a scene from Ong Bak 2, This is the last scene in the movie in which, he uses many different Martial Arts from Wing Chun to Muay Thai, Tiger Silat and Escrima just to name a few. When I think about a Jedi or Sith I think of this, regardless of whether or not you have your saber, you need to be just as skilled with your hands. There is a lot of fancy stuff that he does that you'd think "No, it wouldn't be practical to use that in a real fight." But Master Nova is right It can all be practical given what your situation is.

"When you're talking about fighting, as it is, with no rules, well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!" - Bruce Lee (I am not sorry I love Bruce lee)

Hope you enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMVonJ3muM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMVonJ3muM#)

P.S. Thats only the first half of the whole fight scene!

Onk Bak 2 and Tony Jaa... yeah... that is the BOMB!  :)  High level stuff, no doubt.  I absolutely love him, Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Michelle Yeoh, Jet Li and many others.

That being said--it's important to remember a few things about filmed work (some of which, of course, applies to live work as well):

* Timing is SOOOooooo important!  The fighters must actually work "together" (does that sound odd) to achieve the feeling that everything is occurring "logically", and that no one is (generally) waiting to get hit.

* You will rarely ever see what's on "the cutting room floor"... that is to say--how many takes/shots/tries they made that DIDN'T work or didn't look right... in order to get the "perfect" shot for each action sequence.  What you can appreciate for CERTAIN... is if they do a very LONG, unedited shot... consisting of 15+ moves/actions or more--in which case you know that they REALLY did an excellent amount of work!

* Editing is the action filmmaker's friend.  :)  Excellent editing is the action filmmaker's GODSEND!  No matter what, even professionals will make mistakes, and they can rarely do 20+ actions/moves without making a mistake, especially when there are complicated acrobatics, martial arts and wild costumes/weapons involved.  In that case, editing becomes VERY important in order to maintain the "contiguous" feel of everything... so that your mind BELIEVES that the whole scene is taking place all at once, all at the same time, no "breaks" in the action

* Training YOUR body (mine, yours, anyone's) to the level that Tony Jaa is at... takes YEEEEEAAAARRSS!!  And also luck + talent + hard work "behind the scenes".

* Finally, you all may not know this, but... it's actually the NON-STAR actors that can make the action star look reeeeaaallly good!  They have to do the right amount of preparation/waiting/timing to be in the ideal position for (in this case) Tony Jaa to look good.  And sometimes... they have to get hit, too!  :)  Really get hit.  Not super hard, but... yeah... sometimes it happens (sometimes, it's even called for).  So... the supporting performers REALLY have to help make the star look good too.

All this is not to discredit an action star's hard work... on the contrary, it just shows that more than one factor is going into the "movie fight" where multiple opponents are coming after one guy.

If I had to sum it all up in a single word... it would have to be "timing".  Everyone getting the timing down so precisely--it flows like water, looks like magic... and achieves the result: the ILLUSION of "deadly combat".  :)

Thailand should have a Tony Jaa ward in their hospitals lol, because I'm fairly certain he's beat the crap out of every actor and stunt man in Thailand lol.

So bummed I didn't have a camera person today, got to meet a new friend today and duel with them, and one of my good friends showed up to duel as well. We had a blast, and I got to do some two on one dueling, and some unarmed, vs. armed practice. My friend who duels with me often used two sabers while my new friend used one against me... I got tagged a couple of times, but I consistently held my own against the two, both skilled duelists. It's unfortunate that I don't have video to back this up, especially since on the internet everyone seems to be a professional.... I assure you I'm not a professional, but I do have an affinity for some of the things that are necessary for dealing with multiple opponents.

These things are

Timing: Novastar put it fantastically timing is a big part of dueling anyone, and if you can get good timing and battle rhythm down then you can really take your dueling to the next level.

Footwork: if you have amazing footwork, and knowledge of how to evade, you can block one opponent while dodging the other. This is very hard and you are still at a disadvantage, but if you can manage this you can last long enough to get an opening and take one of your opponents out of the fight.

Strategy: Evasion is nothing if you don't do anything with it, if you can maneuver your opponents to work against each other you can win by putting them in each others way. This is the whole using the environment, and knowing your surroundings.... basically everything Miyamoto Musashi teaches in Book of Five Rings.

Stamina: To utilize strategy you need to be able to out maneuver two people, this requires a great degree of stamina so that you can run, block, and counter to stay steps ahead of your opponents.

Speed: You need speed to be able to block two people at once, especially if one is dual wielding, nuff said.

Technique: Speed is nothing without technique, and technique can give you the tools to defeat multiple opponents, but only if they are muscle memory.

There are more, but it's something that books can be written about.

Disarms, I did an amazing disarm today, I got inside the blade, and my friend and I went down to the ground and got into a grappling match over the saber. Minor grazing on both sides, but I eventually wrested the saber from his grasp and got the upper hand. Once again though it's really hard and you are at a disadvantage, but as Master Novastar so eloquently put it, it's all about timing!

Sorry for the wall O' text

I didn't mind the read. ;D

I agree. I love the positive input that everyone gives each other about fighting.

I find its eassier to take on 2 people with my double bladed light saber but thats me

You must move pretty fast. :)

I use to befor i messed up my knee and right shoulder but i all so work better with adisadvantige it pushis me and i use thare over coffidce agenst them and the turain i have to fight smarter now that i lost spee

I want to throw this out thare. What about the battales throgh history when armies and soldies were out numberd ten to one and still won i think it varry plassable to he out number and win is it easy no far from it but you need to use the terain and to circal wright to keep both of then in front of you if you do this wright you can back the in to a car or a corner but its hard

You bring up a good point, but let me just set the record straight:  duels have COMPLETELY different strategic and tactical aspects from larger scale battles.  The same plans and strategies that you would use in a war would make no sense to use as a singular person - it just doesn't scale up like that.  Some ideas can be adapted for sure - that's where you're right - but you can't assume that just because an army wins despite ten to one odds that a person can do the same.  We're discussing the plausibility of fighting two people alone - does anyone here think a person can legitimately fight ten people at once?  Anyone?

True but thare are records of just a few people taking one meny. My favoret was viking that held of the englis one a bridge ya i know they were funnaled but still it took an arow to take him down

That sounds really awesome!?

Do you have a link or something to it? I would really like to know more?

My phones not that high teck lol i cant even get your pic one this thing it was on the history chanel a few years back and it was tword the end of the viking im bad with names and dattes but i thing it was one of thare last battales

It's okay If it was a  major Viking battle , I'm sure my buddy Volstagg knows about it.


Speaking of Vikings! What about a Viking Jedi, Just a near giant with a Great saber and he is just the happiest most fun loving guy in the world.

Anybody? ;D

Fighting ten people at once is actually easier than fighting two people at once... Anywhere from two to five people against one can be extremely difficult because all opponents have a good chance of being able to reach their target. With more than five, the attackers run into this problem, they can't all get to the same target, they get in each others way, and they almost become more of a hindrance than an advantage. This is obviously provided that the one opponent is skilled at fighting multiple opponents, and therein lies the problem, if you don't train to be able to take on more than one opponent you won't be able to do it. Those who constantly train to that standard are able to do so.

Wich is what i want to do but my frends suck they just dont fight with thare heads i try to help they say im worng and they losse agen its sad

I hear that, Fine do it wrong, I'm only gonna bean you in the head again.

I just want some one to push me so i let them gange up on me wich i have done since high school wich was befor Ultra i had MR i had darth mall darth vader and mace windu and i was 3 of us but 1 moved and the other wont dual any more. And back then we lern the hard way throw pain that is not for most people thow my poit you make my arm go numb i say good job you got me

@Rory... and @Kham...

Get this straight--right now...

There will NOT be insulting behavior on these forums.  It won't be tolerated.  Period.

You will all find that Ultra, Emory and Caine... are *MUCH* more forgiving than am I.  Not kidding.

Post kindly.  Re-read the forum rules... or else--there will be consequences.  END OF STORY.  I do not want to hear any more of this bickering here... and it definitely better not go into private messages.  Respect everyone--or you'll be posting to NO one.

....

Moving the subject/topic back into light... simply put:

* I'd like to see videos of people trying actual experiments with this!
* Granted... ONLY if you do them safely... SOLELY if you do them safely (protective gear)
* You could do 2 vs. 1... you could try 3 vs. 1... you could try 6 vs. 1, etc.

Also... I hate to say it, but... I strongly disagree with Lucien Kane regarding the "10 is easier than 2" thing.  The primary reason is... I do this sort of thing *ALL THE TIME* (not kidding)... with my fencing students.

It's nearly IMPOSSIBLE for me to handle 10 at once... whereas with 2... it's A LOT easier.  :)

I'm sorry, as... yes... people are entitled to their opinions... but--I cannot possibly agree with 10 being easier than 2 (or any other iteration of "more being easier than less")... unless there is some kind of... I don't know "bottleneck" point.  Which would be a COMPLETELY different argument... and in that case--it's "as good as" being assailed by a single person.

For clarity, a "bottleneck" area would refer to... for example (not limited to this, btw)... a hallway, which is... hmm, let's say ~4 feet wide.  There is no access for the multiple fighters to get "behind" the singular fighter...

So... in this case... I'd PERSONALLY consider that BASICALLY all about "one on one" combat.  Kind of depending, but... again--I'm trying to put it in perspective.  :)

In most lines of thinking regarding "10 on 1"... you're not generally(?) going to have the luxury (I think I discussed this in the original post, can't recall) of running all over the place until you locate a "perfect bottleneck".  :)

Although... uh... yeah.  It... happens in the movies QUITE A BIT, huh?  ;)   ::)

Im sry Nova i went back and red that i should have worded it better any tips on how to get my frend mike not to focus soully on power? Cause he seid it its a sword it needs power

Good post Nova, I feel the same way.  When Lucien posted I realized he had a point in that the "10 vs 1" scenario made it difficult for the 10 people to close in on the 1 person without getting in each other's way, so I give him props there.  That said, 10 people are WAY too many for any one person to realistically keep an eye on, so unless they're a bunch of mindless idiots the single guy is still screwed.  Even if the 10 just form a perimeter while two or three close in to kill him, that would be enough.

At least with two people you can maneuver to keep them coming from the same direction so that you can watch them both.  With 10 people there are just way too many factors (and enemies) to possibly account for.  You lose the ability to maneuver them the same way you can do 2, and you just plain old can't process that much information at once.

I also would like to see videos!  I'm quite interested to see some of your strategies for these types of encounters, and how they play out in real time.  However, I will be QUITE jealous if you find 10 people to spar with!  I can never get any more than 2 or 3...

Absolutely the truth.  In the case of 10 vs. 1 in the open, can you imagine having the stamina mentally and physically to keep up with 10 professional athletes?  That is what a good swordsman is after all.  You don't just work on your sword technique.  You train your body and mind to a high level.

Bring on the vids!

6 vs. 1? How many friends do you think I have! I'm still a nerd last I checked. :D

Anyway. I see what Lucien is saying, and he does have a point about 10 people getting in each others way, but that's still a lot of people. I don't think it would end very well for you, but I've never tried it, so I could be wrong.

Alright, training I have. I call it The Gauntlet, and I've actually done this. You start off one on one and add opponents on a reducing time interval... 1 minute, 45 seconds, 30 seconds, 15 seconds until all 5 opponents have entered the fray. You will have to eliminate opponents in a timely fashion or fight outnumbered. I've made it to four twice and have the peculiar distinction of being the only person to ever fight down 3 to 1 and score hits. You can run it with a standard single, dual, or what I like to call "open" where you can fight with staff and oversize stuff.

My comment was in reference to My own friends not taking my advice and defending how they see fit. Fina and dandy for them but then they get confused and angry when they get hit again.

I apologize for any misinterpretation I may have cause. :-\

I'll be clearer in the future about my sarcasm.





I really wish I could find somebody other than my brother and my wife to spar with. Not that they're bad but at least with another person we could pair off. 2 on 2.

I agree that it's difficult, but it's not impossible, and I still believe it's easier to take on more than two opponents at a time, because they can't just focus on you, they have to try not to be in each others way as well, and that's no matter how big of an area you have. If you can funnel them you can be more effective, but really it boils down to timing, tactics, and as Nova said, being able to track multiple people at once. You have to be everywhere with your eyes, and if you can do that without making it obvious you can catch people off guard.

I've studied unconventional fighting tactics for over four years now, and it's all about how a smaller force can take on a larger force. If you apply tactics to your dueling/sparring, you can really take things to new levels. That takes study and time, read Book of Five Rings, as I know many of you already have, read books about Guerrilla fighting tactics. You have to be able to strike and move quickly. You don't stand there and decisively engage all ten opponents, you've got to move, take one down and move to the next. I never said it's easy, but it's definitely do-able... It's just not the norm. Once again, hopefully soon, I can post some vids of my multiple opponent duels... because I feel like I'm just being looked at as an internet professional. No one has said it, but I feel like you should take my advice with a grain of salt until I show you anyways, because that is what I would do. lol

I apply this constant motion to dual wielding and it really helps to keep opponents on their toes.

I've never really tried to fight more than two. :)

I used to do it as a kid hand to hand in martial arts. Now I've only done three against me with people that are about my skill level, and that was a while back, but I do at least two every once in a while. Then I spar with all my Jr. Highers at the church... I had 6 of them attacking me at once Tuesday, it was still insane, but they were getting in each others way, when they're not actually being dropped it's difficult to keep defending the same people... plus I'm only going about 40% with them... you know, so I don't actually hurt them. Still though the first few rounds I actually held them back and got hits on each of them consecutively. Then after they kept coming back I got tagged a couple of times, that being said they are Jr. Highers, and I'm 23 so there's a skill factor to consider there... If I can find ten people about my skill level, one I'd probably just be stoked to have that many duelists, and two I'd always have a camera man LOL!

So I don't mean to act like a professional or anything because I'm not, I'm just merely stating my experiences and fun that I have with dueling. I will say that I am proficient at taking on two people at once.

So long as you aren't being pompous it's cool. ;D

But if you do be sarcastic or your just screwing around. Don't forget to make note of it in the post.
It can cause problems. :-\ (I did it earlier in this thread.)

I just don't want to give the air of being arrogant because I'm on the internet... I try to accurately depict my skills, because in all honesty, I'd like to meet a lot of you guys someday, and I want my skills accurately conveyed so you all know what to expect. At least Caine and Novastar are pretty realistic, they live in the same state as I do lol! Now there would be a fun match!!!

I feel the same way, I live in CA but no one down here duels except my friends and I. :-\

Meeting the Masters someday would totally rad. I mean there is a reason we call you guys Master, you have real world skills that I would love to learn from. ;D

....

Now how do you feel about Dual wielding against at least two opponents?

Ooooh I'm in Oceanside California, if you're close to that I know a few duelists. Dual wielding against multiple opponents can be effective, but you need to be proficient with dual wielding first... I imagine you are, so my guess is that dual wielding works pretty good for you.

I'll have to try it against my friends around here. I am proficient with dual wield, she uses single/staff, I use Dual and Single.

I'm so gonna try it today if I can. ;D ;D

I hate to be all... "like this", but... umm... vids, guys.  Otherwise... I'm sorry to have to put my foot down about the whole myth of "Many vs. one = in favor of the one" thing, but... yeah.

I will try to do the same, although I rarely have time in my class environments (people are paying to have students taught by me) to just break out cameras, put them into people's hands and ask them to film.  They also may or many not want their children filmed & "shown online for SW folks", lol.  :)

That being said, I can tell you that I've done COUNTLESS "games" of:

* OPEN SPACE.  All students against me. Usually 6-12 total bodies comin' after me, sometimes more.  Not small space, not huge.  It's just for fun, because I simply get hit DOZENS OF TIMES.  We go by "lives", lol.  You have so many lives (like a video game) and then... yer simply dead.  In this case, I have to have like 6-12 lives (or more!), and they each get 2, maybe 3.  It RARELY ends well for me, lol.  :)  Even if they are all somewhat younger, inexperienced students.  Remember: these are KIDS.  I'm an adult.

* LINE THAT CAN'T BE CROSSED... except by one foot (usually a lunge).  So, in this case, the line is the "invisible" barrier, and no one can cross it with two feet (even me).  If you cross it, you lose a life.  Still usually 6-12 total bodies comin' after me.  Now in THIS iteration of the game, yes, I fare MUCH MUCH better!  :)  Even so, if the fencers even have an "intermediate / advanced" level... it's very very VERY VEEERRRRYY tough to pull off.  At least in this case--yup, I have a chance to win, but their chances are far greater.  I can win if everyone acts somewhat individually.  I will quickly lose if people generally "attack at the same times" on certain moments, and use really smart timing to catch me while I'm "busy" with another action/fencer.

There are other games, but whatever you get the idea.  In the open space one... I'm sorry, but YOU'RE SIMPLY DEAD.  Unless you can show me some vids (where you haven't asked your pals to go easy, or... you don't have a bunch of knuckleheads who don't know what they're doing and are scared to strike) where you magically fend off a dozen attackers without being hit, or... you know, whatever your rule-set... then as a master on this forum, I have to call BS.  I don't need nor want young people getting involved in martial arts to have ILLUSIONS of how things roll in REAL-TIME combat/sparring.

Sure, in the movies... you can do whatever YOU LIKE!!!  :)  The more fun, the better!  Definitely DEFINITELY do the "Cyrano vs. 10 men" thing!!  PLEASE!!!  It's friggin' awesome!  :) 

But don't be a chowder-boots and expect me to believe that one human being can somehow outdo 5-10 human beings of somewhat equal martial skill.  That's ridiculous, and it's (sadly) not logical.

On the note of terrain + bottlenecks (AGAIN)... sure, it could improve chances.  As to people running into each other in open space... well not even my fencing students do that (kids), so... if adults are doing that--what is WRONG with them, son?  :)  But bottlenecks and like... idk... climbin' trees or something to get the "high ground" (lol)... I'm going to consider that as something one wouldn't have much time to do, nor would it be "default" for any given situation.

Then again... WHY 5-10 sword-wielding fools would suddenly want to kill you, ANOTHER sword-wielding fool (in today's world)... is beyond me.  :)  I just assume y'all have some beers and Ultra Wings and enjoy some good times.  :D  heheheh


VIDS!!!   ... or it didn't happen.

No Novastar I get it completely, I'd say the same thing if I were you, it's just too easy to say anything on the internet. Don't get me wrong the advantage is highly in favor of the many vs. the one. I agree with you there, I'm just saying that if someone trains themselves to the standard, then they'll have a better chance against multiple opponents. Ugh, hopefully I'll get a chance to do some multiple opponent duels here soon, I can't wait to get some vids of this.

Beer and ultra wings, I think im gonna take Master Nobas advice, it's a saber fighting night.

I can beat 10 opponents without breaking a sweat!......................In my dreams. ;D

looks like I might get to do at least a two on one duel Monday.... maybe even some three on one dueling... Hopefully I have a camera person ready.

Finally some multiple opponent dueling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQrr2ApxvA8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQrr2ApxvA8#)

questions comments concerns criticisms are welcome!

It's always good exercise to do what you're showing in the video, Lucien... but please don't "get me wrong" when I say... it's not really "multiple opponents" here.  Why.

* They are not pushing the 2 vs. 1 advantage
* You guys engage for an action or two... then separate... often!  (I started to understand the "go tag the tree thing" after 30 seconds of watching... you might want to make that explicitly clear + talk about targeting details, etc. -- although it seems like the whole body)
* It's very clear that when you are engaged with person X... person Y... "waits".  After you complete your actions with person X and put your attention to person Y... now PERSON X "waits".  :)
* Boffers... however safe... are reeeeaaallly light and "floppy" compared to LED sabers, sword props for staged combat, and even fencing sabers... that would greatly increase the difficulty!

Also... I may have missed it or not watched 100% of the video, but... I never saw both others attempt to attack you "at the same time" (again, they are not pushing the 2 vs. 1 advantage).

My suggestion:  Request that your friends attempt to attack simultaneously... maybe run some drills to make sure they understand... then film again to see the differences?  :)

But hey... I'll also say this... man--the LEAVES ALONE on the ground would make it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to achieve precise footwork!  For anyone!  :)  So... yeah... all I can say is... I hope you're really beginning to understand that... if your friends attacked SIMULTANEOUSLY... you would almost never be able to stop both attacks AND counter (although it is possible on some occasions--but sooooo much has to happen "perfectly" for it to work out, it's simply not reliable).

I will see if David & Alain (from Golden Gate Knights) someday have the time to meet with me and do some kind of demo.  I doubt it'll be pretty though... it'll be a lot like the "LightWhip" video if I coach David & Alain properly... to attack me TOGETHER... sort of... as a "team" and/or looking for appropriately timed opportunities.  :)

Acknowledged Master Novastar.

Lucien stated in another thread he posted in that it is a foam noodle slid over the blade of their Ultra Sabers. Which is ingenious! ;D

As was stated it's a noodle over the polycarb blade... this was my friend's idea, and it is ingenious... Couple things that are different, you get a little more wind resistance from your saber, but your blade is heavier so that equals out. The foam over the blades are kind of "rough" so they stick when they make contact making for dynamic saber locks... I.E blades don't slide up and down. Obviously you can hit harder because there's about an inch and a half of foam between your face and the blade... very effective.
Also Nova, with all due respect if you're going to criticize my video at least watch the whole thing. I watch videos two or three times before I comment because I don't want to miss anything. There are a few times when both opponents attack simultaneously at times I come out on top, but in the instance of the last strike, Person A was in front of me, he attacked as I counter attacked person B hit me from behind. I do get hit throughout the video, and I acknowledge and tag the tree just like the others.

My point is, I don't care how trained you are, unless you choreograph the moves, two opponents generally are going to have a hard time syncing up their attacks because it's really difficult not to be in each others way, and the two opponents can't read the each others minds. So for them to attack in tandem one person must off set themselves from me, meaning person A has to be at least at a 90 degree offset from person B to attack person C. At 90 degrees I can still see both people out of my peripheral vision so I can still attack giving me a chance to defend and counter attack.

Ideally person A and person B want to be offset by 180 degrees, so person A is in front of me, and person B is behind me. Once this happens I effectively can't see both people at the same time so I am at a huge disadvantage and person A, and person B can attack in tandem.

The problem, I don't let them do that, yes I agree if I allowed them to attack together they would easily overpower me... So when you fight two people or more at once, your job is to assure that they don't get that advantage. I was fighting two people at once, that doesn't mean I stand there and let them close in on me.

Awesome, sorry I missed that... I think I relied too much on the video details and description, so... I didn't realize what the blades were.  That's great, though.  :)

I did indeed watch the whole thing.  I mentioned that I may still have missed certain actions, since... no... I didn't watch it multiple times.  I think I saw what was going on for the mostpart, though.[/quote]

My point is, I don't care how trained you are, unless you choreograph the moves, two opponents generally are going to have a hard time syncing up their attacks because it's really difficult not to be in each others way...[/quote]I personally disagree with that... but... it comes from a perspective of my own experience, so... I can respect and understand why you'd feel the way you do.

Actually (in my opinion and experience)... it has nothing to do with whether or not your opponents are at differing angles.  Although it's true that if they DO get "behind" and "in front" of you... it's better for them.  But it's actually really not the point.  To me... as long as they both attack you in different places near the same moment in time... it's going to be VERY tough for a singular individual to defend BOTH targets and survive... and even attempt to offer a riposte or counter-attack...

lol well I'm glad that these debates exist. Even if we must agree to disagree on subjects it all advances the art or arts that we study! I for one am happy to have guys like you around to rub elbows with Novastar because honestly you challenge me to "prove you wrong" lol. Thanks for being awesome and chiming in on my vids! I do appreciate it.

Dude, it's totally cool, mayne!  :)  The entire POINT is for us to have HEALTHY discussion and try to learn as much as we can from one another.

Really... it may sound as if I'm being "devil's advocate", but my only hope is to help people to become BETTER "saber-ists" or whatever.  And--as always--I'm about the REALITY of it vs. some of the fantasies that come along with Star Wars, heheh...

That being said... MORE training = MORE training, period.  What you're doing is sweet, Lucien.  :)  Do as much as you can.

THAT being said... I'm also saying that your opponents should be doing more also.  They should push you more, look for times when you're not ready and strike quickly... and with the intention to hit you while you are "busy".  :)

Yeah I get what you are saying, but I don't make it easy for them... these guys really thought they had the advantage when they started. I didn't tell them really what we were doing. So they thought they were going to be able to flank me quickly and absolutely outgun me. I do this all the time, I've gotten good at keeping people off their rhythm... especially when dueling multiple people.

The only real fight I've ever been in, I got jumped by two people, and because of how hard my Sensei's pushed me, I was able to stay ahead of them. I have a knack for reading people, so that helps, and I don't mean to say that someone who picks up a saber after watching Star Wars is going to get these results, but all I'm saying is that the more you train to that standard the better you do against multiple opponents.

Weird... in college, me and about 4 other guys were jumped by a group of other folks... we never knew what hit us.  We were all very bloody... very beaten and disoriented afterward... and the crazy fools didn't even take our wallets--nothing.  In the end... I don't know if they jumped us because my friends were black (I was the only white guy), or... for what.  It seemed... and was(?) senseless.  It's the only time something quite THAT insane ever happened to me.

It took us all several weeks to "fully" recover, although we were ok (for the mostpart) the next day.  That's awesome if you escaped unscathed and "stayed ahead of them".  Although I have to be honest... it's pretty tough to believe, heheh!

It was in my younger years as a Marine... I was in downtown Oceanside, and my buddy and I were just walking up the street... What I still can't believe about the whole situation is, it was right across from the police station! Anyways there were actually three of them, one of them kept my buddy from interfering, the other two were attempting to beat me senseless.

They circled me up, and started swearing at me, I told them I didn't want to fight, so I turned and tried to walk away, one of them punched me right in the back of the head. Much like you said, it all seemed so.... well senseless... you hit the nail on the head. I was able to keep them from hurting me, they were throwing mainly haymakers, which are easy to block. Halfway through the fight I realized I was pulling my punches, so I let loose after that. Even still they managed to rush me and knock me to the ground, I was able to maintain my composure and keep them from stomping my face in though, so after that I kicked them off of me and got back up. By that time they saw the cops that had been sitting there for the entire time and they hightailed it out of there. I had mainly knuckle rashes, no bruises or anything. I looked like I had been in a Bruce Willis movie though. Not a scratch the next day though I was a little bummed, I can't confirm because they didn't stick around to let me ask them. However I hit one guy in the nose hard enough it likely broke his nose, and then the other guy I threw into the corner of a building, so I think I split his lip, I didn't destroy them obviously they walked away, but they weren't able to injure me either. Sorry I know this is off topic, but it really happened lol... Only time I wasn't able to talk my way out of a fight, I consider it a failure to this day.

I did learn how to flip my switch from "sparring mode" to "fighting mode" like I said... apologies for derailing

Actually your story really points out the fact that in this situation (no weapons) you can keep yourself from getting killed, but you are unlikely to score a victory of any kind (Aside from a broken nose here or a split lip there).  Having done Multiple opponent sparring against 3rd through 6th degree black belts in TKD I know how to avoid getting decimated, that is victory enough most times.

Your story (plus any of mine) also indicate that if weapons were involved, the outcome would be totally different.

Ah, that explains things more.  As for me and my friends in college... it was very dark and there wasn't any warning, lol.  No one told us "Hey, we're going to beat you up", hahhaha.  I guess they'd call it... uh... sucker punches?  All from behind, basically, or... you know--just sudden & without warning.  And we got our ARZZEZZ handed to us.  Big time.

It happens to the best of us... It honestly doesn't matter how highly trained you are, if you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time you can get taken down by anyone. I still don't know to this day how that first punch I took to the back of the skull didn't knock me out or kill me. It was right at the base of the skull where the skull meets the spine, it's a dangerous place to get punched full force, so here's a tip from an idiot who learned the hard way... If you're walking away from a fight.... back away.


Remember though this was my first fight ever, I know now that if this were to happen again... I won't play around, I have a wife, and soon to have a kid to go home to. If someone tries to hurt me I am going to hurt them back... badly. I know so much more now than I did then, I am confident that if the same situation that happened to me then happened now... I would "decimate" them. Of course this is speculation, and I'm generally opposed to violence, so I'm not planning to find out anytime soon.

Any fight you walk away from is a victory in today's society it might be considered more of a victory because you're less likely to end up in jail. As Master Artorius pointed out weapons are a combat multiplier, had weapons been involved I have no doubt the fight would have ended differently.

A fistfight you have to place your punches in the right spot to cause a knock out, or debilitate your opponent by manipulating their joints causing hypertension or fracture. Generally a knockout in a fistfight takes more than one punch and fistfights usually end up on the ground.

Now throw a baseball bat to each opponent, generally as long as you make solid contact with your opponent, you have a debilitating blow.
Translate that to swords and as long as armor isn't a factor whoever lands a hit will win because their blade will cause significantly more damage than a punch.

With multiple opponents, you are at a disadvantage, unless you can take one of the people out of the fight. Let's take a look at the Maul Vs. Kenobi/Ginn battle. Maul isn't an idiot, he rarely engages both opponents at the same time, he is constantly putting obstacles between himself and Obi Wan so he can press the attack against Ginn. He's far better at multitasking than I am, because on a few occasions he actually kicks Obi Wan away without looking at him... Go Force users, my point is, even Maul understands that he can't be in two places at once, he doesn't decisively engage both opponents at the same time, he keeps one at bay while battling the other.

Same with Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, Dooku on a few occasions locks both blades up because Anakin and Obi Wan are forced into close quarters with him. There's no offset, they're literally right next to each other, very uncomfortable for them, and enough so Dooku can defend them both at the same time, but even he is only fighting so he can get to a position where he can take Kenobi out of the fight.

The battles in the movies look really flashy and they are, but the principles of combat are still there is my main point, and if you watch my vid closely I do the same thing with the two gentlemen fighting with me. I'm constantly keeping one of them off their rhythm so that I'm essentially fighting one person at a time. My point is, I'm still fighting two people with two very different styles, they both want to hit me, but I'm taking away their advantage by doing a few things

1. moving, I move quickly and decisively to make sure that they don't outflank me... takes a lot of stamina, but it's absolutely essential
2. I pick one person at a time to engage, I switch many times, but if I'm decisively engaging one opponent, I'm not decisively engaging the other if I can help it. I will make it so they can't get to me somehow.
3. I strike quickly, and just as fast I move back to a defensive position. I can't defend if I'm overextended, I keep my guard in close, and strike like a snake, then coil back up to strike again.
4. I always try to have both opponents in view. I break the rules here. I don't watch chest or eyes for telegraphing, I pick a spot in between opponents and use my peripheral vision to catch any movement from either attacker.
5. I always try to strike first when dueling multiple opponents. Best defense here is a good offense, if they can't get their bearings because I'm wailing on them... FANTASTIC!

It's cheating in a manner because I'm taking away the simultaneous attacks which would overwhelm me, but that's how you beat two or more opponents in a duel.

The disclaimer here is this... it takes YEARS of training to this standard before you're able to handle multiple opponents effectively. Even then you get hit a lot practicing it, heck even now if you watch I get hit when  I don't set things up the way I said. It's very easy to make a mistake, to run out of gas or to just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you mess up there's twice the chance that someone will capitalize on it.

This is a good point, and I think at this point we're all pretty much in agreement about one fact:  being outnumbered sucks.  You're at a heavy disadvantage for sure, and you really have to be both smart AND fit to hope to reduce this.  I do applaud your skill in battling multiple opponents Lucien, clearly you've thought this through and are pretty well prepared for such a contingency.

One thing I see Dooku doing that I tend to use as well (might be the preference for straight line combat that comes from Makashi) is maneuvering both opponents together, as you said.  Not only does it get both in visual range, preventing them from double teaming you, but it allows for the possibility of less experienced foes to get tangled up in each other.  If you can get your enemies to kill each other off, then you're in good shape ;)

I tend to go with Nova's idea that it's unrealistic to expect much of a victory when facing overwhelming odds (without some serious trick up your sleeve).  I'm just a skeptic that way.  However, as I said I recognize Lucien's obvious skill in reducing this great disadvantage, and have to give him credit for his viewpoint as well.  Training to this standard will help in such a situation, and will move your odds closer toward breaking even (which is pretty much the best you can hope for when outnumbered).

Thanks, and you pretty much hit the nail on the head with Dooku, and he uses Makashi to manipulate both opponents blades into each other. That's why he could block both blades, he's only doing a little bit of the work. Most of the time though your opponents really want to get that offset, and outflank you. So it's difficult to even practice the Dooku method of fighting... I guess I need to start doing that though, because he really is great at it.

If you watch closely during the "Dooku vs. Anakin & Obi" fights... just like the "Maul vs. QGJ & Obi" fights... there are moments when one fighter is "waiting" for the other to be finished with the "singled out" character (i.e. Dooku or Maul).  This is because it's staged combat.

This DOES mean people who are interested in such things would have review the footage pretty carefully (not to mention, be aware of all the editing, lol!)... but those who wish to do so, can.

For the record, staged combat... no matter how sweet it looks... is just that--it's staged.  :)  It contains SOME portions "of realistic moves" at times... but the way everything is put together is to achieve a completely different result & feel.

If you're sparring "real-time"... as many of you know, it's completely different.  And if you're sparring two well-trained people at the same time... trust me, you should get hit about 80% of the time or more.  It's simple physics--you rarely can block two separate targets at the same time with a single weapon (most of the time).  In fact... you'd at least need to use measure (aka dodging / distance) on one attack, while dealing with another.  This gets back to the main principles of all martial arts though, which I mentioned in another thread.

However, at a certain point--TRAINED fighters... who understand feints, beats, actions of concealment, stop hits/cuts, counter-time / 2nd intention, and other such martial actions (or by whatever name martial art X or Y or Z calls them)... will both be able to strike at the same time.  Additionally, I hope it goes without saying that in 2 vs. 1... the 2 fighters shouldn't bother attacking the SAME TARGET at the same time.  That is somewhat wasteful.  Although cool for staged combat (you see it ALL the time in Cyrano / Zorro flicks, heheh).

Again, all this doesn't have much relevance if the two or more fighters "wait" until the single fighter is done with the other guy.  In that case... I'd say they are being polite and HONORABLE... basically allowing the "singled out" fighter to take things one step at a time!  :)

Rules for Real multiple opponents fights:#1:Avoid if at all possible (situational awareness)
                                                                #2:If you can't avoid, Survive by any means necessary then let the law figure it out
                                                                #3:assume they are armed (because they are)
                                                                #4: there is no "fair/ honorable " fight
                                                               

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by Six.

Agreed on most points, I will say that when you are fighting two opponents at once, especially TRAINED fighters, but even untrained fighters pose a threat in mass. Your goal is to take away the advantage of their numbers, the point of bringing up the Maul vs. Kenobi/Ginn duel is to show that Maul's primary objective, at least initially wasn't to beat both of the Jedi, it was to keep the padawan off of him while he dealt with the master.

In empty handed martial arts, when you are taught how to defend against two attackers, you are taught that ideally you want to keep one opponent in front of the other so that only one can attack you. Once again, this takes immeasurable stamina to keep up, so you really need to finish off one opponent quickly. We don't live in a perfect world so this won't always be possible, so you need to be ready to defend against both opponents, but you aren't decisively engaging both opponents, you're fighting to get a better vantage point so you're only fighting one opponent again. It's a heck of a lot to be processing at once.

I'm pretty sure we all agree
Fighting more than one opponent at a time sucks!
You are at a disadvantage.

My point of view is this:
You get results based on the standard you train to. (I.E if you place yourself up against ridiculous odds in training, you'll be better equipped in a real fight.

Even trained fighters are not necessarily adapted to fighting as a team, not to say they are not more of a threat than untrained fighters, but they can still end up getting in each others way easily.

Working against multiple opponents requires the knowledge of how to use terrain, tactics, footwork, measure, and almost all aspects of swordplay simultaneously to take away the advantage that they have. You need every trick to assure a win.

The odds are stacked against you, but you are not "doomed" to fail.

Anyways, I really enjoy this debate, and I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by speaking about my point of view. Novastar you're an amazing, talented person, this forum and others really benefit from your knowledge and experience. So I enjoy disagreeing with you, but I have the utmost respect for you as well!

Step on toes, nothin'!!  Healthy discussion and bringing topics to light are important.  Not everyone HAS to "agree" for things to move forward.  Disagreeing is actually one of the best ways to LEARN (in my opinion).

I completely UNDERSTAND precisely what you mean (and I always have from the beginning of this post) about... you know... getting opponents to "get in the way" of one another.  Makes sense, I understand that.

Agreed!  I love the healthy discussion, and I mean to emphasize that.  No one has flat out said "So and so is wrong this is not possible."  It's not an argument!

And we all back up things with facts.  My TKD and JKD experiences have taught the "make opponents pile up on each other" concept.  It does work!  conversely if your opponents get wise to that (which they annoyingly tend to do in my own experience) you have to adapt.

One thing I always love about the forums:  diversity of experience!

Cheers.

I just have the net on my low teck phone so i cant see the link but does any one use the staff or doul weild in a 2 on 1? Sry for my bad spelling no spell check

Well it may not be a good answer but don't know what your seeking but I'm happy to provide some input.:) I was trained a little in staff and spear fighting or "Yari" I. LARP a lot back in 05 and 06. My weapon of choice was a staff or spear. Primarily because I had actual training with them and had somewhat of an idea of what I was doing. To me it is a weapon I am very comfortable with "it works for me"
To me fighting with a staff or spear feels like it increases my odds when fighting multiple opponents. But I never fought more than two people at a time. And the fight is intense and challenging at that point because you have two targets trying to attack you. With a staff I feel you can attack from multiple areasand provide decent defense from blocks with a staff. With a spear I play the range game. While using a spear I never let my opponents get in close to me.if I do then the fight starts to sway in there advantage.  This is all my personal opinion on the staff and spear weapons.  I don't know if this helps you out any but I thought I would add in my bit

Hate to repeat what Nova and Art have said here, but this is indeed a healthy, productive discussion.  If more debates and arguments were conducted like this I'm sure the world would be much better off!

Ultimately my view is this:  I respect all you martial artists and have great faith in your ability to manage multiple opponents.  I have seen it in action with Artorius, and with Lucien's videos.  Clearly you have a point in that training to that standard GREATLY helps in such a situation.  It really comes down to the creativity, intelligence, and martial skill of the opponents.  Having derived most of my experience from fencing, clearly I am not cut out for serious combat against multiple foes - yet I hold my own when facing my friends (who have little real swordsmanship skills).  As we have discussed, I try to keep them tangled in each other - rather easy to do on unsuspecting amateurs.  However, I could see where (if they also knew the tactics of fighting multiple foes) they could maneuver to counter this.

I believe I mentioned before that I have sparred our friend, who is relatively inexperienced, and Artorius at the same time.  Where our friend was easier to manipulate, Artorius was VERY difficult.  He knew his advantage, and fought to retain it.  Everytime I looked, he was maneuvering to strike where I had little protection, using our friend Belron as a distraction.  It was a struggle just to keep up with him, let alone finish the fight.

Anyway, just wanted to talk about that a little.  Keep up the great conversation guys!

I notice a couple of you mentioned that "extra gear," when its full tilt and someone is actually trying to break you off... I got mine a workout a time or two in the Marines myself. Ended up getting peeled off a guy I was trying to throw down a flight of stairs (the stairs were there!) in a two on one scrap at the barracks one time and I also participated in (okay, STARTED) a platoon on platoon scrap in Yuma one time. I suppose all of these ruffians taught me to keep my head on a swivel when there are bodies all over the place...

Well by staff i ment double blade light saber but i have the extra long blades so i use it its grate range like you seid grave. I find that helps me alot in a 2 on 1 mach

Yes distance is a great ally. I knew you were referring to saber staff :) staffs,  saber staffs are great you have two ends to attack with and two ends to parry and block with.

I hear you there, I got into a company scrap my platoon commander started on one of our field ops! You really learn how to watch everything at once almost. So much fun, I ended up having a few gnarly scratches across my face from that field op... right before my wedding... the wife was so mad. Her mother had some sort of pink cream, she put it on my cuts, and they were gone the next day... I was honestly a little irritated, I wanted my battle scars lol

Our scrap in Yuma was broken up by the arrival of Colonel... I still got away with the whole thing.

Nice

lol that is too awesome! Those are the best moments