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Author Topic: On approaching the "multiple opponents" concept... (by Nova)  (Read 34441 times)
Novastar
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« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2011, 06:00:24 AM »

Weird... in college, me and about 4 other guys were jumped by a group of other folks... we never knew what hit us.  We were all very bloody... very beaten and disoriented afterward... and the crazy fools didn't even take our wallets--nothing.  In the end... I don't know if they jumped us because my friends were black (I was the only white guy), or... for what.  It seemed... and was(?) senseless.  It's the only time something quite THAT insane ever happened to me.

It took us all several weeks to "fully" recover, although we were ok (for the mostpart) the next day.  That's awesome if you escaped unscathed and "stayed ahead of them".  Although I have to be honest... it's pretty tough to believe, heheh!
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« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2011, 06:23:25 AM »

It was in my younger years as a Marine... I was in downtown Oceanside, and my buddy and I were just walking up the street... What I still can't believe about the whole situation is, it was right across from the police station! Anyways there were actually three of them, one of them kept my buddy from interfering, the other two were attempting to beat me senseless.

They circled me up, and started swearing at me, I told them I didn't want to fight, so I turned and tried to walk away, one of them punched me right in the back of the head. Much like you said, it all seemed so.... well senseless... you hit the nail on the head. I was able to keep them from hurting me, they were throwing mainly haymakers, which are easy to block. Halfway through the fight I realized I was pulling my punches, so I let loose after that. Even still they managed to rush me and knock me to the ground, I was able to maintain my composure and keep them from stomping my face in though, so after that I kicked them off of me and got back up. By that time they saw the cops that had been sitting there for the entire time and they hightailed it out of there. I had mainly knuckle rashes, no bruises or anything. I looked like I had been in a Bruce Willis movie though. Not a scratch the next day though I was a little bummed, I can't confirm because they didn't stick around to let me ask them. However I hit one guy in the nose hard enough it likely broke his nose, and then the other guy I threw into the corner of a building, so I think I split his lip, I didn't destroy them obviously they walked away, but they weren't able to injure me either. Sorry I know this is off topic, but it really happened lol... Only time I wasn't able to talk my way out of a fight, I consider it a failure to this day.

I did learn how to flip my switch from "sparring mode" to "fighting mode" like I said... apologies for derailing
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« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2011, 10:49:46 AM »

Actually your story really points out the fact that in this situation (no weapons) you can keep yourself from getting killed, but you are unlikely to score a victory of any kind (Aside from a broken nose here or a split lip there).  Having done Multiple opponent sparring against 3rd through 6th degree black belts in TKD I know how to avoid getting decimated, that is victory enough most times.

Your story (plus any of mine) also indicate that if weapons were involved, the outcome would be totally different.
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« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2011, 09:10:22 PM »

Ah, that explains things more.  As for me and my friends in college... it was very dark and there wasn't any warning, lol.  No one told us "Hey, we're going to beat you up", hahhaha.  I guess they'd call it... uh... sucker punches?  All from behind, basically, or... you know--just sudden & without warning.  And we got our ARZZEZZ handed to us.  Big time.
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« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2011, 11:18:54 PM »

Ah, that explains things more.  As for me and my friends in college... it was very dark and there wasn't any warning, lol.  No one told us "Hey, we're going to beat you up", hahhaha.  I guess they'd call it... uh... sucker punches?  All from behind, basically, or... you know--just sudden & without warning.  And we got our ARZZEZZ handed to us.  Big time.

It happens to the best of us... It honestly doesn't matter how highly trained you are, if you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time you can get taken down by anyone. I still don't know to this day how that first punch I took to the back of the skull didn't knock me out or kill me. It was right at the base of the skull where the skull meets the spine, it's a dangerous place to get punched full force, so here's a tip from an idiot who learned the hard way... If you're walking away from a fight.... back away.

Actually your story really points out the fact that in this situation (no weapons) you can keep yourself from getting killed, but you are unlikely to score a victory of any kind (Aside from a broken nose here or a split lip there).  Having done Multiple opponent sparring against 3rd through 6th degree black belts in TKD I know how to avoid getting decimated, that is victory enough most times.

Your story (plus any of mine) also indicate that if weapons were involved, the outcome would be totally different.

Remember though this was my first fight ever, I know now that if this were to happen again... I won't play around, I have a wife, and soon to have a kid to go home to. If someone tries to hurt me I am going to hurt them back... badly. I know so much more now than I did then, I am confident that if the same situation that happened to me then happened now... I would "decimate" them. Of course this is speculation, and I'm generally opposed to violence, so I'm not planning to find out anytime soon.

Any fight you walk away from is a victory in today's society it might be considered more of a victory because you're less likely to end up in jail. As Master Artorius pointed out weapons are a combat multiplier, had weapons been involved I have no doubt the fight would have ended differently.

A fistfight you have to place your punches in the right spot to cause a knock out, or debilitate your opponent by manipulating their joints causing hypertension or fracture. Generally a knockout in a fistfight takes more than one punch and fistfights usually end up on the ground.

Now throw a baseball bat to each opponent, generally as long as you make solid contact with your opponent, you have a debilitating blow.
Translate that to swords and as long as armor isn't a factor whoever lands a hit will win because their blade will cause significantly more damage than a punch.

With multiple opponents, you are at a disadvantage, unless you can take one of the people out of the fight. Let's take a look at the Maul Vs. Kenobi/Ginn battle. Maul isn't an idiot, he rarely engages both opponents at the same time, he is constantly putting obstacles between himself and Obi Wan so he can press the attack against Ginn. He's far better at multitasking than I am, because on a few occasions he actually kicks Obi Wan away without looking at him... Go Force users, my point is, even Maul understands that he can't be in two places at once, he doesn't decisively engage both opponents at the same time, he keeps one at bay while battling the other.

Same with Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, Dooku on a few occasions locks both blades up because Anakin and Obi Wan are forced into close quarters with him. There's no offset, they're literally right next to each other, very uncomfortable for them, and enough so Dooku can defend them both at the same time, but even he is only fighting so he can get to a position where he can take Kenobi out of the fight.

The battles in the movies look really flashy and they are, but the principles of combat are still there is my main point, and if you watch my vid closely I do the same thing with the two gentlemen fighting with me. I'm constantly keeping one of them off their rhythm so that I'm essentially fighting one person at a time. My point is, I'm still fighting two people with two very different styles, they both want to hit me, but I'm taking away their advantage by doing a few things

1. moving, I move quickly and decisively to make sure that they don't outflank me... takes a lot of stamina, but it's absolutely essential
2. I pick one person at a time to engage, I switch many times, but if I'm decisively engaging one opponent, I'm not decisively engaging the other if I can help it. I will make it so they can't get to me somehow.
3. I strike quickly, and just as fast I move back to a defensive position. I can't defend if I'm overextended, I keep my guard in close, and strike like a snake, then coil back up to strike again.
4. I always try to have both opponents in view. I break the rules here. I don't watch chest or eyes for telegraphing, I pick a spot in between opponents and use my peripheral vision to catch any movement from either attacker.
5. I always try to strike first when dueling multiple opponents. Best defense here is a good offense, if they can't get their bearings because I'm wailing on them... FANTASTIC!

It's cheating in a manner because I'm taking away the simultaneous attacks which would overwhelm me, but that's how you beat two or more opponents in a duel.

The disclaimer here is this... it takes YEARS of training to this standard before you're able to handle multiple opponents effectively. Even then you get hit a lot practicing it, heck even now if you watch I get hit when  I don't set things up the way I said. It's very easy to make a mistake, to run out of gas or to just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you mess up there's twice the chance that someone will capitalize on it.
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« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2011, 12:29:16 PM »

Quote
With multiple opponents, you are at a disadvantage, unless you can take one of the people out of the fight. Let's take a look at the Maul Vs. Kenobi/Ginn battle. Maul isn't an idiot, he rarely engages both opponents at the same time, he is constantly putting obstacles between himself and Obi Wan so he can press the attack against Ginn. He's far better at multitasking than I am, because on a few occasions he actually kicks Obi Wan away without looking at him... Go Force users, my point is, even Maul understands that he can't be in two places at once, he doesn't decisively engage both opponents at the same time, he keeps one at bay while battling the other.

Same with Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, Dooku on a few occasions locks both blades up because Anakin and Obi Wan are forced into close quarters with him. There's no offset, they're literally right next to each other, very uncomfortable for them, and enough so Dooku can defend them both at the same time, but even he is only fighting so he can get to a position where he can take Kenobi out of the fight. 

This is a good point, and I think at this point we're all pretty much in agreement about one fact:  being outnumbered sucks.  You're at a heavy disadvantage for sure, and you really have to be both smart AND fit to hope to reduce this.  I do applaud your skill in battling multiple opponents Lucien, clearly you've thought this through and are pretty well prepared for such a contingency.

One thing I see Dooku doing that I tend to use as well (might be the preference for straight line combat that comes from Makashi) is maneuvering both opponents together, as you said.  Not only does it get both in visual range, preventing them from double teaming you, but it allows for the possibility of less experienced foes to get tangled up in each other.  If you can get your enemies to kill each other off, then you're in good shape Wink

I tend to go with Nova's idea that it's unrealistic to expect much of a victory when facing overwhelming odds (without some serious trick up your sleeve).  I'm just a skeptic that way.  However, as I said I recognize Lucien's obvious skill in reducing this great disadvantage, and have to give him credit for his viewpoint as well.  Training to this standard will help in such a situation, and will move your odds closer toward breaking even (which is pretty much the best you can hope for when outnumbered).
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« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2011, 05:33:21 PM »

This is a good point, and I think at this point we're all pretty much in agreement about one fact:  being outnumbered sucks.  You're at a heavy disadvantage for sure, and you really have to be both smart AND fit to hope to reduce this.  I do applaud your skill in battling multiple opponents Lucien, clearly you've thought this through and are pretty well prepared for such a contingency.

One thing I see Dooku doing that I tend to use as well (might be the preference for straight line combat that comes from Makashi) is maneuvering both opponents together, as you said.  Not only does it get both in visual range, preventing them from double teaming you, but it allows for the possibility of less experienced foes to get tangled up in each other.  If you can get your enemies to kill each other off, then you're in good shape Wink

I tend to go with Nova's idea that it's unrealistic to expect much of a victory when facing overwhelming odds (without some serious trick up your sleeve).  I'm just a skeptic that way.  However, as I said I recognize Lucien's obvious skill in reducing this great disadvantage, and have to give him credit for his viewpoint as well.  Training to this standard will help in such a situation, and will move your odds closer toward breaking even (which is pretty much the best you can hope for when outnumbered).

Thanks, and you pretty much hit the nail on the head with Dooku, and he uses Makashi to manipulate both opponents blades into each other. That's why he could block both blades, he's only doing a little bit of the work. Most of the time though your opponents really want to get that offset, and outflank you. So it's difficult to even practice the Dooku method of fighting... I guess I need to start doing that though, because he really is great at it.
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« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2011, 08:25:57 AM »

If you watch closely during the "Dooku vs. Anakin & Obi" fights... just like the "Maul vs. QGJ & Obi" fights... there are moments when one fighter is "waiting" for the other to be finished with the "singled out" character (i.e. Dooku or Maul).  This is because it's staged combat.

This DOES mean people who are interested in such things would have review the footage pretty carefully (not to mention, be aware of all the editing, lol!)... but those who wish to do so, can.

For the record, staged combat... no matter how sweet it looks... is just that--it's staged.  Smiley  It contains SOME portions "of realistic moves" at times... but the way everything is put together is to achieve a completely different result & feel.

If you're sparring "real-time"... as many of you know, it's completely different.  And if you're sparring two well-trained people at the same time... trust me, you should get hit about 80% of the time or more.  It's simple physics--you rarely can block two separate targets at the same time with a single weapon (most of the time).  In fact... you'd at least need to use measure (aka dodging / distance) on one attack, while dealing with another.  This gets back to the main principles of all martial arts though, which I mentioned in another thread.

However, at a certain point--TRAINED fighters... who understand feints, beats, actions of concealment, stop hits/cuts, counter-time / 2nd intention, and other such martial actions (or by whatever name martial art X or Y or Z calls them)... will both be able to strike at the same time.  Additionally, I hope it goes without saying that in 2 vs. 1... the 2 fighters shouldn't bother attacking the SAME TARGET at the same time.  That is somewhat wasteful.  Although cool for staged combat (you see it ALL the time in Cyrano / Zorro flicks, heheh).

Again, all this doesn't have much relevance if the two or more fighters "wait" until the single fighter is done with the other guy.  In that case... I'd say they are being polite and HONORABLE... basically allowing the "singled out" fighter to take things one step at a time!  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2011, 08:47:41 AM »

Rules for Real multiple opponents fights:#1:Avoid if at all possible (situational awareness)
                                                                #2:If you can't avoid, Survive by any means necessary then let the law figure it out
                                                                #3:assume they are armed (because they are)
                                                                #4: there is no "fair/ honorable " fight
                                                               

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« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2011, 09:35:11 PM »

If you watch closely during the "Dooku vs. Anakin & Obi" fights... just like the "Maul vs. QGJ & Obi" fights... there are moments when one fighter is "waiting" for the other to be finished with the "singled out" character (i.e. Dooku or Maul).  This is because it's staged combat.

This DOES mean people who are interested in such things would have review the footage pretty carefully (not to mention, be aware of all the editing, lol!)... but those who wish to do so, can.

For the record, staged combat... no matter how sweet it looks... is just that--it's staged.  Smiley  It contains SOME portions "of realistic moves" at times... but the way everything is put together is to achieve a completely different result & feel.

If you're sparring "real-time"... as many of you know, it's completely different.  And if you're sparring two well-trained people at the same time... trust me, you should get hit about 80% of the time or more.  It's simple physics--you rarely can block two separate targets at the same time with a single weapon (most of the time).  In fact... you'd at least need to use measure (aka dodging / distance) on one attack, while dealing with another.  This gets back to the main principles of all martial arts though, which I mentioned in another thread.

However, at a certain point--TRAINED fighters... who understand feints, beats, actions of concealment, stop hits/cuts, counter-time / 2nd intention, and other such martial actions (or by whatever name martial art X or Y or Z calls them)... will both be able to strike at the same time.  Additionally, I hope it goes without saying that in 2 vs. 1... the 2 fighters shouldn't bother attacking the SAME TARGET at the same time.  That is somewhat wasteful.  Although cool for staged combat (you see it ALL the time in Cyrano / Zorro flicks, heheh).

Again, all this doesn't have much relevance if the two or more fighters "wait" until the single fighter is done with the other guy.  In that case... I'd say they are being polite and HONORABLE... basically allowing the "singled out" fighter to take things one step at a time!  Smiley

Agreed on most points, I will say that when you are fighting two opponents at once, especially TRAINED fighters, but even untrained fighters pose a threat in mass. Your goal is to take away the advantage of their numbers, the point of bringing up the Maul vs. Kenobi/Ginn duel is to show that Maul's primary objective, at least initially wasn't to beat both of the Jedi, it was to keep the padawan off of him while he dealt with the master.

In empty handed martial arts, when you are taught how to defend against two attackers, you are taught that ideally you want to keep one opponent in front of the other so that only one can attack you. Once again, this takes immeasurable stamina to keep up, so you really need to finish off one opponent quickly. We don't live in a perfect world so this won't always be possible, so you need to be ready to defend against both opponents, but you aren't decisively engaging both opponents, you're fighting to get a better vantage point so you're only fighting one opponent again. It's a heck of a lot to be processing at once.

I'm pretty sure we all agree
Fighting more than one opponent at a time sucks!
You are at a disadvantage.

My point of view is this:
You get results based on the standard you train to. (I.E if you place yourself up against ridiculous odds in training, you'll be better equipped in a real fight.

Even trained fighters are not necessarily adapted to fighting as a team, not to say they are not more of a threat than untrained fighters, but they can still end up getting in each others way easily.

Working against multiple opponents requires the knowledge of how to use terrain, tactics, footwork, measure, and almost all aspects of swordplay simultaneously to take away the advantage that they have. You need every trick to assure a win.

The odds are stacked against you, but you are not "doomed" to fail.

Anyways, I really enjoy this debate, and I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by speaking about my point of view. Novastar you're an amazing, talented person, this forum and others really benefit from your knowledge and experience. So I enjoy disagreeing with you, but I have the utmost respect for you as well!
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« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2011, 03:12:15 AM »

Step on toes, nothin'!!  Healthy discussion and bringing topics to light are important.  Not everyone HAS to "agree" for things to move forward.  Disagreeing is actually one of the best ways to LEARN (in my opinion).

I completely UNDERSTAND precisely what you mean (and I always have from the beginning of this post) about... you know... getting opponents to "get in the way" of one another.  Makes sense, I understand that.

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« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2011, 03:22:39 AM »

Agreed!  I love the healthy discussion, and I mean to emphasize that.  No one has flat out said "So and so is wrong this is not possible."  It's not an argument!

And we all back up things with facts.  My TKD and JKD experiences have taught the "make opponents pile up on each other" concept.  It does work!  conversely if your opponents get wise to that (which they annoyingly tend to do in my own experience) you have to adapt.

One thing I always love about the forums:  diversity of experience!

Cheers.
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« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2011, 04:20:10 AM »

I just have the net on my low teck phone so i cant see the link but does any one use the staff or doul weild in a 2 on 1? Sry for my bad spelling no spell check
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« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2011, 01:51:06 PM »

I just have the net on my low teck phone so i cant see the link but does any one use the staff or doul weild in a 2 on 1? Sry for my bad spelling no spell check


Well it may not be a good answer but don't know what your seeking but I'm happy to provide some input.Smiley I was trained a little in staff and spear fighting or "Yari" I. LARP a lot back in 05 and 06. My weapon of choice was a staff or spear. Primarily because I had actual training with them and had somewhat of an idea of what I was doing. To me it is a weapon I am very comfortable with "it works for me"
To me fighting with a staff or spear feels like it increases my odds when fighting multiple opponents. But I never fought more than two people at a time. And the fight is intense and challenging at that point because you have two targets trying to attack you. With a staff I feel you can attack from multiple areasand provide decent defense from blocks with a staff. With a spear I play the range game. While using a spear I never let my opponents get in close to me.if I do then the fight starts to sway in there advantage.  This is all my personal opinion on the staff and spear weapons.  I don't know if this helps you out any but I thought I would add in my bit
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« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2011, 05:16:59 PM »

Hate to repeat what Nova and Art have said here, but this is indeed a healthy, productive discussion.  If more debates and arguments were conducted like this I'm sure the world would be much better off!

Ultimately my view is this:  I respect all you martial artists and have great faith in your ability to manage multiple opponents.  I have seen it in action with Artorius, and with Lucien's videos.  Clearly you have a point in that training to that standard GREATLY helps in such a situation.  It really comes down to the creativity, intelligence, and martial skill of the opponents.  Having derived most of my experience from fencing, clearly I am not cut out for serious combat against multiple foes - yet I hold my own when facing my friends (who have little real swordsmanship skills).  As we have discussed, I try to keep them tangled in each other - rather easy to do on unsuspecting amateurs.  However, I could see where (if they also knew the tactics of fighting multiple foes) they could maneuver to counter this.

I believe I mentioned before that I have sparred our friend, who is relatively inexperienced, and Artorius at the same time.  Where our friend was easier to manipulate, Artorius was VERY difficult.  He knew his advantage, and fought to retain it.  Everytime I looked, he was maneuvering to strike where I had little protection, using our friend Belron as a distraction.  It was a struggle just to keep up with him, let alone finish the fight.

Anyway, just wanted to talk about that a little.  Keep up the great conversation guys!
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