On approaching the "multiple opponents" concept... (by Nova)

[Master Lucien Kane]

Ooooh I'm in Oceanside California, if you're close to that I know a few duelists. Dual wielding against multiple opponents can be effective, but you need to be proficient with dual wielding first... I imagine you are, so my guess is that dual wielding works pretty good for you.

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Ooooh I'm in Oceanside California, if you're close to that I know a few duelists. Dual wielding against multiple opponents can be effective, but you need to be proficient with dual wielding first... I imagine you are, so my guess is that dual wielding works pretty good for you.

I'll have to try it against my friends around here. I am proficient with dual wield, she uses single/staff, I use Dual and Single.

I'm so gonna try it today if I can.

[Novastar]

I hate to be all... "like this", but... umm... vids, guys.  Otherwise... I'm sorry to have to put my foot down about the whole myth of "Many vs. one = in favor of the one" thing, but... yeah.

I will try to do the same, although I rarely have time in my class environments (people are paying to have students taught by me) to just break out cameras, put them into people's hands and ask them to film.  They also may or many not want their children filmed & "shown online for SW folks", lol. 

That being said, I can tell you that I've done COUNTLESS "games" of:

* OPEN SPACE.  All students against me. Usually 6-12 total bodies comin' after me, sometimes more.  Not small space, not huge.  It's just for fun, because I simply get hit DOZENS OF TIMES.  We go by "lives", lol.  You have so many lives (like a video game) and then... yer simply dead.  In this case, I have to have like 6-12 lives (or more!), and they each get 2, maybe 3.  It RARELY ends well for me, lol.    Even if they are all somewhat younger, inexperienced students.  Remember: these are KIDS.  I'm an adult.

* LINE THAT CAN'T BE CROSSED... except by one foot (usually a lunge).  So, in this case, the line is the "invisible" barrier, and no one can cross it with two feet (even me).  If you cross it, you lose a life.  Still usually 6-12 total bodies comin' after me.  Now in THIS iteration of the game, yes, I fare MUCH MUCH better!    Even so, if the fencers even have an "intermediate / advanced" level... it's very very VERY VEEERRRRYY tough to pull off.  At least in this case--yup, I have a chance to win, but their chances are far greater.  I can win if everyone acts somewhat individually.  I will quickly lose if people generally "attack at the same times" on certain moments, and use really smart timing to catch me while I'm "busy" with another action/fencer.

There are other games, but whatever you get the idea.  In the open space one... I'm sorry, but YOU'RE SIMPLY DEAD.  Unless you can show me some vids (where you haven't asked your pals to go easy, or... you don't have a bunch of knuckleheads who don't know what they're doing and are scared to strike) where you magically fend off a dozen attackers without being hit, or... you know, whatever your rule-set... then as a master on this forum, I have to call BS.  I don't need nor want young people getting involved in martial arts to have ILLUSIONS of how things roll in REAL-TIME combat/sparring.

Sure, in the movies... you can do whatever YOU LIKE!!!    The more fun, the better!  Definitely DEFINITELY do the "Cyrano vs. 10 men" thing!!  PLEASE!!!  It's friggin' awesome!   

But don't be a chowder-boots and expect me to believe that one human being can somehow outdo 5-10 human beings of somewhat equal martial skill.  That's ridiculous, and it's (sadly) not logical.

On the note of terrain + bottlenecks (AGAIN)... sure, it could improve chances.  As to people running into each other in open space... well not even my fencing students do that (kids), so... if adults are doing that--what is WRONG with them, son?    But bottlenecks and like... idk... climbin' trees or something to get the "high ground" (lol)... I'm going to consider that as something one wouldn't have much time to do, nor would it be "default" for any given situation.

Then again... WHY 5-10 sword-wielding fools would suddenly want to kill you, ANOTHER sword-wielding fool (in today's world)... is beyond me.    I just assume y'all have some beers and Ultra Wings and enjoy some good times.    heheheh


VIDS!!!   ... or it didn't happen.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I hate to be all... "like this", but... umm... vids, guys.  Otherwise... I'm sorry to have to put my foot down about the whole myth of "Many vs. one = in favor of the one" thing, but... yeah.

I will try to do the same, although I rarely have time in my class environments (people are paying to have students taught by me) to just break out cameras, put them into people's hands and ask them to film.  They also may or many not want their children filmed & "shown online for SW folks", lol. 

That being said, I can tell you that I've done COUNTLESS "games" of:

* OPEN SPACE.  All students against me. Usually 6-12 total bodies comin' after me, sometimes more.  Not small space, not huge.  It's just for fun, because I simply get hit DOZENS OF TIMES.  We go by "lives", lol.  You have so many lives (like a video game) and then... yer simply dead.  In this case, I have to have like 6-12 lives (or more!), and they each get 2, maybe 3.  It RARELY ends well for me, lol.    Even if they are all somewhat younger, inexperienced students.  Remember: these are KIDS.  I'm an adult.

* LINE THAT CAN'T BE CROSSED... except by one foot (usually a lunge).  So, in this case, the line is the "invisible" barrier, and no one can cross it with two feet (even me).  If you cross it, you lose a life.  Still usually 6-12 total bodies comin' after me.  Now in THIS iteration of the game, yes, I fare MUCH MUCH better!    Even so, if the fencers even have an "intermediate / advanced" level... it's very very VERY VEEERRRRYY tough to pull off.  At least in this case--yup, I have a chance to win, but their chances are far greater.  I can win if everyone acts somewhat individually.  I will quickly lose if people generally "attack at the same times" on certain moments, and use really smart timing to catch me while I'm "busy" with another action/fencer.

There are other games, but whatever you get the idea.  In the open space one... I'm sorry, but YOU'RE SIMPLY DEAD.  Unless you can show me some vids (where you haven't asked your pals to go easy, or... you don't have a bunch of knuckleheads who don't know what they're doing and are scared to strike) where you magically fend off a dozen attackers without being hit, or... you know, whatever your rule-set... then as a master on this forum, I have to call BS.  I don't need nor want young people getting involved in martial arts to have ILLUSIONS of how things roll in REAL-TIME combat/sparring.

Sure, in the movies... you can do whatever YOU LIKE!!!    The more fun, the better!  Definitely DEFINITELY do the "Cyrano vs. 10 men" thing!!  PLEASE!!!  It's friggin' awesome!   

But don't be a chowder-boots and expect me to believe that one human being can somehow outdo 5-10 human beings of somewhat equal martial skill.  That's ridiculous, and it's (sadly) not logical.

On the note of terrain + bottlenecks (AGAIN)... sure, it could improve chances.  As to people running into each other in open space... well not even my fencing students do that (kids), so... if adults are doing that--what is WRONG with them, son?    But bottlenecks and like... idk... climbin' trees or something to get the "high ground" (lol)... I'm going to consider that as something one wouldn't have much time to do, nor would it be "default" for any given situation.

Then again... WHY 5-10 sword-wielding fools would suddenly want to kill you, ANOTHER sword-wielding fool (in today's world)... is beyond me.    I just assume y'all have some beers and Ultra Wings and enjoy some good times.    heheheh


VIDS!!!   ... or it didn't happen.

No Novastar I get it completely, I'd say the same thing if I were you, it's just too easy to say anything on the internet. Don't get me wrong the advantage is highly in favor of the many vs. the one. I agree with you there, I'm just saying that if someone trains themselves to the standard, then they'll have a better chance against multiple opponents. Ugh, hopefully I'll get a chance to do some multiple opponent duels here soon, I can't wait to get some vids of this.

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Beer and ultra wings, I think im gonna take Master Nobas advice, it's a saber fighting night.

[ThreadJack]

I can beat 10 opponents without breaking a sweat!......................In my dreams.

[Master Lucien Kane]

looks like I might get to do at least a two on one duel Monday.... maybe even some three on one dueling... Hopefully I have a camera person ready.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Finally some multiple opponent dueling

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQrr2ApxvA8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQrr2ApxvA8</a>

questions comments concerns criticisms are welcome!

[Novastar]

It's always good exercise to do what you're showing in the video, Lucien... but please don't "get me wrong" when I say... it's not really "multiple opponents" here.  Why.

* They are not pushing the 2 vs. 1 advantage
* You guys engage for an action or two... then separate... often!  (I started to understand the "go tag the tree thing" after 30 seconds of watching... you might want to make that explicitly clear + talk about targeting details, etc. -- although it seems like the whole body)
* It's very clear that when you are engaged with person X... person Y... "waits".  After you complete your actions with person X and put your attention to person Y... now PERSON X "waits".  
* Boffers... however safe... are reeeeaaallly light and "floppy" compared to LED sabers, sword props for staged combat, and even fencing sabers... that would greatly increase the difficulty!

Also... I may have missed it or not watched 100% of the video, but... I never saw both others attempt to attack you "at the same time" (again, they are not pushing the 2 vs. 1 advantage).

My suggestion:  Request that your friends attempt to attack simultaneously... maybe run some drills to make sure they understand... then film again to see the differences?  

But hey... I'll also say this... man--the LEAVES ALONE on the ground would make it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to achieve precise footwork!  For anyone!    So... yeah... all I can say is... I hope you're really beginning to understand that... if your friends attacked SIMULTANEOUSLY... you would almost never be able to stop both attacks AND counter (although it is possible on some occasions--but sooooo much has to happen "perfectly" for it to work out, it's simply not reliable).

I will see if David & Alain (from Golden Gate Knights) someday have the time to meet with me and do some kind of demo.  I doubt it'll be pretty though... it'll be a lot like the "LightWhip" video if I coach David & Alain properly... to attack me TOGETHER... sort of... as a "team" and/or looking for appropriately timed opportunities.  

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Acknowledged Master Novastar.

Lucien stated in another thread he posted in that it is a foam noodle slid over the blade of their Ultra Sabers. Which is ingenious!

[Master Lucien Kane]

As was stated it's a noodle over the polycarb blade... this was my friend's idea, and it is ingenious... Couple things that are different, you get a little more wind resistance from your saber, but your blade is heavier so that equals out. The foam over the blades are kind of "rough" so they stick when they make contact making for dynamic saber locks... I.E blades don't slide up and down. Obviously you can hit harder because there's about an inch and a half of foam between your face and the blade... very effective.
Also Nova, with all due respect if you're going to criticize my video at least watch the whole thing. I watch videos two or three times before I comment because I don't want to miss anything. There are a few times when both opponents attack simultaneously at times I come out on top, but in the instance of the last strike, Person A was in front of me, he attacked as I counter attacked person B hit me from behind. I do get hit throughout the video, and I acknowledge and tag the tree just like the others.

My point is, I don't care how trained you are, unless you choreograph the moves, two opponents generally are going to have a hard time syncing up their attacks because it's really difficult not to be in each others way, and the two opponents can't read the each others minds. So for them to attack in tandem one person must off set themselves from me, meaning person A has to be at least at a 90 degree offset from person B to attack person C. At 90 degrees I can still see both people out of my peripheral vision so I can still attack giving me a chance to defend and counter attack.

Ideally person A and person B want to be offset by 180 degrees, so person A is in front of me, and person B is behind me. Once this happens I effectively can't see both people at the same time so I am at a huge disadvantage and person A, and person B can attack in tandem.

The problem, I don't let them do that, yes I agree if I allowed them to attack together they would easily overpower me... So when you fight two people or more at once, your job is to assure that they don't get that advantage. I was fighting two people at once, that doesn't mean I stand there and let them close in on me.

[Novastar]

As was stated it's a noodle over the polycarb blade... this was my friend's idea, and it is ingenious... Couple things that are different, you get a little more wind resistance from your saber, but your blade is heavier so that equals out. The foam over the blades are kind of "rough" so they stick when they make contact making for dynamic saber locks... I.E blades don't slide up and down. Obviously you can hit harder because there's about an inch and a half of foam between your face and the blade... very effective.

Awesome, sorry I missed that... I think I relied too much on the video details and description, so... I didn't realize what the blades were.  That's great, though. 

Also Nova, with all due respect if you're going to criticize my video at least watch the whole thing. I watch videos two or three times before I comment because I don't want to miss anything. There are a few times when both opponents attack simultaneously at times I come out on top, but in the instance of the last strike, Person A was in front of me, he attacked as I counter attacked person B hit me from behind. I do get hit throughout the video, and I acknowledge and tag the tree just like the others.

I did indeed watch the whole thing.  I mentioned that I may still have missed certain actions, since... no... I didn't watch it multiple times.  I think I saw what was going on for the mostpart, though.[/quote]

My point is, I don't care how trained you are, unless you choreograph the moves, two opponents generally are going to have a hard time syncing up their attacks because it's really difficult not to be in each others way...[/quote]I personally disagree with that... but... it comes from a perspective of my own experience, so... I can respect and understand why you'd feel the way you do.

...and the two opponents can't read the each others minds. So for them to attack in tandem one person must off set themselves from me, meaning person A has to be at least at a 90 degree offset from person B to attack person C. At 90 degrees I can still see both people out of my peripheral vision so I can still attack giving me a chance to defend and counter attack.

Actually (in my opinion and experience)... it has nothing to do with whether or not your opponents are at differing angles.  Although it's true that if they DO get "behind" and "in front" of you... it's better for them.  But it's actually really not the point.  To me... as long as they both attack you in different places near the same moment in time... it's going to be VERY tough for a singular individual to defend BOTH targets and survive... and even attempt to offer a riposte or counter-attack...

[Master Lucien Kane]

lol well I'm glad that these debates exist. Even if we must agree to disagree on subjects it all advances the art or arts that we study! I for one am happy to have guys like you around to rub elbows with Novastar because honestly you challenge me to "prove you wrong" lol. Thanks for being awesome and chiming in on my vids! I do appreciate it.

[Novastar]

lol well I'm glad that these debates exist. Even if we must agree to disagree on subjects it all advances the art or arts that we study! I for one am happy to have guys like you around to rub elbows with Novastar because honestly you challenge me to "prove you wrong" lol. Thanks for being awesome and chiming in on my vids! I do appreciate it.

Dude, it's totally cool, mayne!    The entire POINT is for us to have HEALTHY discussion and try to learn as much as we can from one another.

Really... it may sound as if I'm being "devil's advocate", but my only hope is to help people to become BETTER "saber-ists" or whatever.  And--as always--I'm about the REALITY of it vs. some of the fantasies that come along with Star Wars, heheh...

That being said... MORE training = MORE training, period.  What you're doing is sweet, Lucien.    Do as much as you can.

THAT being said... I'm also saying that your opponents should be doing more also.  They should push you more, look for times when you're not ready and strike quickly... and with the intention to hit you while you are "busy". 

[Master Lucien Kane]

Yeah I get what you are saying, but I don't make it easy for them... these guys really thought they had the advantage when they started. I didn't tell them really what we were doing. So they thought they were going to be able to flank me quickly and absolutely outgun me. I do this all the time, I've gotten good at keeping people off their rhythm... especially when dueling multiple people.

The only real fight I've ever been in, I got jumped by two people, and because of how hard my Sensei's pushed me, I was able to stay ahead of them. I have a knack for reading people, so that helps, and I don't mean to say that someone who picks up a saber after watching Star Wars is going to get these results, but all I'm saying is that the more you train to that standard the better you do against multiple opponents.