Saber Forum

Hopefully videos rather than simple "I like push ups", to build a collection of points of interest for our common health and well being.

I am back to a point health wise to get back on the horse and as I am researching the potential options for current exercises I thought I would throw this out there.

Is there a particular technique or routine that gets results for you and your body?

I found this one and it seems to be a good one...I will add it to the process for a couple weeks or a month and see what happens.

http://bcove.me/03g674pq (http://bcove.me/03g674pq)

Yoga is great plyo and stretching work, develops amazing core strength, flexibility, focus, and balance.

I only go once a week currently due to other commitments but it makes me feel amazing when I am done.

Yes! This is where my formal education and expertise really is! Great topic, since this is one of the biggest benefits to the sport.

Here is an example of where I come from on these issues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxRy55CeoQg#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxRy55CeoQg#ws)

Grey cook is one of my mentors and teachers. By applying the above concepts, one can achieve amazing things. The patterns he talks about are the natural patterns of movement that we are all born with and develop over time. Rolling, crawling, lifting, squatting, pushing.

As far as an exercise, check out the links at the side. Go to "Grey Cook teaches the Turkish Get-up". That is by far the best single exercise any sword play athlete can do. It hits dynamic stabilization and movement patterning, it is unilateral and targets strength and flexibility at the same time.

I hope to do an exercise and fitness spot on TPLA live with visiting experts.

Hey Rel,

I do Kempo at minimum twice per week.  It is a softer Martial Art that is much better on joints.  After MMA, I was diagnosed with Stage 4 Osteoarthritis in both knees and Chondromalacia in both shoulders.  Kempo does not hurt near as much as Chun Kuk Do did. 

Stretching and body isolation are key points to our warm up exercise.  We have very deep horse stances that allows you to only work upper body and then only the lower body.  I dropped from 260 to 220 lbs and then as the muscle mass began to build, I am back to 257.4 but my body fat is much lower than previously.

I don't know if you have any classes close to you but P90X is based on Kempo.

I studied Kenpo with two different instructors, both traditionalists.

If you are in a reduced status I would look to yoga and tai chi.

Rather that a style I was looking at particular techniques.

I am appreciative of the in put though   ;D

I am late in responding, I know. And I am sorry for my absence. I would like to share with you what I have been doing with my time as far as exercise goes.

So my buddy gave me a book written by a guy named Paul "Coach" Wade, called Convict Conditioning. It's a great book that talks about progressive body weight training. Using six basic exercises designed to increase your strength through the use of your own body weight. No gym memberships. No weight lifting. No equipment to buy. The Big Six (as he calls them) are all exercises that move naturally with the body: Pushups, Squats, Pullups, Leg raises, the Bridge, and Handstand Pushups. Each of the Big Six has ten steps that get increasingly harder as you progress.

For example, I thought I was great at pushups, so I started at step six of the pushups which was close hand or diamond pushups. Level 1 wants 1 set of 10 reps. That was too easy for me. So I hopped into Level 2 which was two sets of 25. I died a horrible burning death. If you follow the progression from Level 1 of Step 1 of Pushups, you'll go from doing 1 set of 10 standing wall push ups to doing 3 sets of 25 one handed pushups.

It's not a quick process. The earlier moves are meant to condition and prepare your body for moving in ways that it may not be used to. Building fibers in your muscles and strengthening your tendons slowly over time. It's classic calisthenics that I think has been lost over time to the big bulky guys and fancy exercise equipment.

I have been following the programs in this book and have gone from being able to only do one or two pull ups to being able to do three sets of 5 repetitions. It may not be geared solely to lightsaber fighting, but I personally feel stronger all over.

I'm so lucky to find this thread, just started a diet 2 days ago with a goal of making my body more lean and fit.  Thanks for you guys' input, this is definitely going to help.

Ab ripper from P90X Plyometrics (same program) planks, yoga, actually sparring (I know obvious) Those are just a few to mention.

I'm a fan of calisthenics (and I recently started attending a Tae Kwon Do class and Karate Club on my campus.  Definitely helping me with both my balance and all around core strength for dueling.

A few things you may want to try are practicing various saber techniques individually, I.E. footwork, blade work, and then combine them together.

for footwork i would recommend fencing footwork, it is in my opinion the basis of the Makashi style and will strengthen your legs and allow you to gain a sense of attack and defense distances.

for blade work i would practice your various cuts and thrusts with your saber on a stationary target like a punching bag or other hanging target. if you don't have a punching bag you can build the poor man's version by filling a pillow case with sand and hanging that over a treebranch or beam in your garage. for defense practice i have a friend make cuts to specific areas so i can parry(block) and repost. We start with simple moves first and work up to more complicated sequences.

combining the two is simply moving your feet with your strikes. For example, matching the motions of your opponent to maintain a safe distance until you attack and stepping in with your attack, or stepping back slightly when blocking.

as far as strength and conditioning go, i go to fencing practice twice a week, run for 20 minutes straight everyday, and lift weights 4-5 times a week.

for saber combat mobility is more important than muscle. but have the strength to attack through an enemy's defense is useful too. i would recommend if you are new to working out and getting fit set realistic goals for yourself at the beginning, also don't make goals like "i want to run 2 miles everyday." make goals like "i want to run for 10 minutes without stopping" since this allows you to choose your own pace and gives you a more realistic frame, and once you meet that goal you can set a new one of say 12 or 15 minutes for next time. as far as lifting goes for saber dueling i would recommend focusing on shoulder and triceps strength, but having good overall physical fitness is more important

Thanks for all the tips guys. This saber combat might just be what drops me some pounds. I'll try some of these workouts you gents have been discussing.

Great thread idea Rel!  Point for bringing it up.


At the risk of doing what you said not to, I like push-ups.  But I don't do them fast like they told me to in gym class.  I've been concentrating on doing them slowly, and at an angle sometimes as well.  Slow enough that one push-up takes 5-10 seconds.  I find this to be much more effective than doing a lot of them really fast.



I'm going to try that as well.  I've been wanting to find something to work my shoulders and back, and that looks like a great way to do it.


I did start doing the Turkish Get-up as well, but stopped because I wasn't sure I was doing it right, and didn't want to risk hurting myself by doing it wrong.

Push ups are the single best exercise for your core when done properly.

As a certified fitness professional I am not able to recommend that exercise the way he is doing it. When you go back your knees should be on the floor so your core can release to accommodate flexion. The way he is doing it the spine is flexing while under load (the compression created by your core) which is the exact mechanism for spinal injury. The risk is not balanced by extra benefit either. Let the knees rest on the ground. Otherwise just do hindu push ups.

Two questions;
1. what makes you think you were doing it wrong?
2. How would stopping it improve that?

Honestly?  It felt incredibly easy.  And being that I've not really done a proper workout in about 10 years, I figured if it felt that easy I was probably doing something wrong.


You got me.  It wouldn't.  I just couldn't think of a good way to be sure it was right, even after watching all the videos on it.

Unless you are feeling pain or are doing something that is specifically contraindicated, you shouldn't stop doing something. There are great ways to progress any exercise.

So, to field strip the TGU, how much weight are you using that feels so easy?

Big word.  I had to look it up.  lol. 


Depends.  I don't actually own any free weights so I can't tell you an exact number.  I use whatever I have lying around.  Depending on what I grab, anywhere from 0-5ish pounds I guess.  Figured I'd start small. 

any suggestions on exercises to build endurance rather than muscle. I figure running but if there is anything else I'd love to hear your suggestions :)

Yeah, just for a little perspective, the TGU beginning weight for adult men is usually a 16 kilo kettlebell (abt 35 lbs). Remember, you entire body is pushing that weight up. 5 lbs is going to be almost the same as nothing. But, it you take a stick or your saber you can balance it to get the shoulder work tht the TGU is best for.

Try this: do the TGU while balancing your saber on you open and upward palm. then, If you have a bag, throw a bunch of books in it and hang it off the back of the arm as you would a kettle bell. Put enough weight in the bag that you can feel it pulling your arm and wrist back but don't let it. Keep the arm and wrist straight.

Well then.  Don't I feel like a goober now.  lol.  I'll definitely give that a shot.  Thanks!

I know it may seem a little strange, but I would suggest a video workout routine called Forza (http://www.mensfitness.com/training/pro-tips/the-forza-workout).  It is performed by a woman with scary man-arms (my four year old neice said this, not me).  However, the video kicked my rear (and I do P90X).

http://www.everwell.com/fitness/diversions/samurai_workout.php (http://www.everwell.com/fitness/diversions/samurai_workout.php)

It can be purchased on Amazon.

I did this one day with an Aikido class I was teaching.  We were doing freestyle bokken work and I thought it would be a good change of pace from our normal practice.  Well, by the end, all the black belts looked like fresh white-belts in their first weekend-long class... dripping, groaning, and generally unable to lift their bokken.

Maybe I'm missing something but if you're going to be exercising by swinging a sword, why not practice whatever forms you're working on already.
Someone with more background in fitness/exercise training care to chime in? I'm honestly curious.

As a fitness professional ad some one who works in the area of research that is concerned with this stuff, I cannot recommend ANY store nought or pre determined routine out of any magazine, video or fad.

The Workouts that are taken from martial arts are unsuitable for real martial arts. That samurai workout BS is some guy taking a couple of kendo classes breaking a sweat and saying "This is the new big thing" but it is only for people who do not already work out with a sword. Basically that work out is for people who don't want to learn martial art. Like cardio kickboxing. If you were to work out with the video there, it would ruin any technique you have built up. The movements are so bad and so NOT sword play that you would be patterning bad swings and making them really strong. The increases your risk of injury.

I can in no way recommend that samurai work out for anything but meeting women in an aerobics class. 

I have no good things to say about P90X other than it is probably making "Beach Body" really wealthy.

Keep it simple.

I may have to try this so-called samurai workout.....  

:D

I am a fully qualified Army Fitness Trainer (for another two years), nine years in the Army, a former body builder (smart not too muscled), a former gym rat (twelve years in four different gyms), a middle school football coach for fitness drills, and I have worked with the Army and Marine recruiters to help their recruits get into shape for Basic.  I am also, as I have stated in the Resident Master thread, I am a black belt in Aikido and have experience with bokken.

With that, I would like to now say that I have a background in fitness/exercise.

The Forza video series is produced by a Kendo black belt and includes the most basic movements that you would do in a Kendo class for muscle memory.  The moves are not designed to be attacks or martial arts at all, as it is an exercise video.  The muscle groups it targets are primarily the core, but also works on the thighs, biceps, triceps, pectorals, lats, and light on other groups.  It also has a basic cardio workout with the speed of the movements.

I will admit that not all store-bought videos are for everyone, but many work relatively well.  As I said before, I have been on P90X for a time.  I am currently on the “Lean” set after having completed the P90 Master, Power 90, and Slim Series video series (testing each for their routines).  However, so far only the P90X is the closest to a real workout routine.  I have yet to attempt Insanity, but the recruiter for the Marines said that his unit was the one to do a test of the series with Shaun T.

Saying that this video is unsuitable for “real martial artists” would assume that all martial artists practice identical forms, which they do not.  As this is about core improvement and not martial arts training, I feel that it is a very good video.  It does not teach anything more than how to swing in a proper manner.  And, I do mean in a proper manner.  It does not focus on the speed swing, but on the accurate and strong swing.

As I said before, the instructor is trained in Kendo and is using the training to build a workout routine.  She has only recently begun producing the videos after seeing the results in her live classes.  It is geared toward those who do not use bokken or swords regularly, but even if you do, it is a good workout with muscular and cardio applications.

To equate the workout for people who “don't want to learn martial art” is unfair.  It is not a martial art, but is a workout routine.  Likewise, cardio kickboxing is not a martial art, it is a workout routine.  This video teached nothing that could be useful in a martial art environment besides the very basic movements that all martial arts, including those of only stage combat, teach.  And it does so in a manner that is not completely wrong.

As you have not watched the actual workout routine, nor have you attempted it, I must ask why you feel qualified to state this.  I am not trying to call you out, only asking how you know that it would ruin technique and cause injury.  My technique in aikiken has not degraded in the least.  (That’s the Aikido sword.)  As a matter of fact, my movements have become faster as I am working primarily with the muscles required for the swings.  So, in actuality, my technique is improving.

This is not a Samurai workout.  It is a workout using a bokken or similar weighted blade as a workout tool.  It is no different than rifle PT in the army or a medicine ball sit-up in football.  You could at least try the routine before condemning it.  If it is not good for you, then do not say it is not good for everyone.

As for the P90X… It is a good routine if you don’t have access to the gym.  My unit was on it in Iraq during their deployment and came back with an average PT score that was about 100 points higher than pre-deployment.  True a video is nowhere near as good as a personal trainer, but some people cannot afford those.  The video is a good substitute.  However, you should find one that works for you.

And, with that said, the Forza routine is working for me and has for quite some time.

Very good. just so you know I am coming from an extensive health and fitness background, I am certified with multiple national organizations and am active in current human movement science research and have many friends that are researchers and have done much work with the US military, firefighters, and police.

sounds exactly like all the other workouts derived form martial arts to me. The "muscle memory" is a quaint term being town around right now but it has little actual value at the level we are talking about here. I'm not saying that to an unfit and untrained individual you would not get benefits. But those same benefits would come from any of the similar work outs on the market.

The P90X is based on the same intuitive concept as  Crossfit and the other fast workouts right now which are about producing the tactile feelings of a workout in people: fatigue, soreness, exhaustion, sweat, etc. etc. P90X throws a bit of science into the mix by relating to the process of general adaptation syndrome but it still is praise for "the real work" it is. Problem with it is that type of training is most effective in short bursts separated by periods of long more technical training. The body building protocol that has been so popular in AMerica is seeing to be the cause of a lot of problems as less experienced individuals enter the market.

I see no innovation or anything remotely new in P90X or any of the other workouts. The one benefit they have is they give you a regimen to follow. But my professional opinion of most of that material is not very high.

The reason I say it because a martial artist who is training real martial art will get little benefit form the class It may be fun, and you may meet some people, but those types of classes are not meant to teach things. If you are going to strengthen your core with a sword or saber, go straight to the core and then practice your sword techniques. Generalized training for building strength and drills for practice. As a swordsman, I was unimpressed by the use of the bokken even for exercise. Keep in mind that I am quite jaded with the fitness industry at this point.

And as I said before, it may be suitable for people who are not already doing stuff lie it. As an addition is is not good for swords conditioning in the same way Tae Bo would be unsuitable for training to fight in kickboxing.

To equate the workout for people who “don't want to learn martial art” is unfair.  It is not a martial art, but is a workout routine.  Likewise, cardio kickboxing is not a martial art, it is a workout routine.  This video teached nothing that could be useful in a martial art environment besides the very basic movements that all martial arts, including those of only stage combat, teach.  And it does so in a manner that is not completely wrong.

Because all of the science and experience I have shows me that if you were to work out like that, and do swordsman ship it would be wasted time for most people. This thread is about strengthening your core FOR swordplay. Obviously swing the sword requires core and all of that. But training should be simple and generalized to affect the greatest amount of benefit. You may think you are getting benefits from the class but it seems like you do so much, you can't really blame your progress on one thing.

What I have seen of it is not significantly differnt than any other Group fitness class with an object.

I am part owner of a health and fitness club and my family has been in the industry for 40 years. I have seen more of this than you think in different settings. I am not unfamiliar  with it. As a habit I do not talk without having something to back up my thoughts with.
I wish her the best of luck. I'm sure she will find an audience for her workout and I hope she is successful with it.

My expertise tells me that it is terribly different. There are totally different NM compartments being recruited, the exercises are  vastly different, and the medicine ball sit-up is being reviled as the worst exercise for the back ever invented. Yes, an object is resistance. Yes resistance makes you stronger. No simply putting them together will not make a great work out. Subjectively if you like it fine.


That's all great, but you can achieve those score jumps by using performance enhancing drugs as well. I'm not trying to take away from your achievement, but those types of data are anecdotal.

If they give you something, fine, but as a health and fitness professional working in the field now I cannot recommend P90X or similar workouts for improving ones fitness. The Forza workout looks to be drills taken from kendo and other sources and combined with an aerobics class structure.  I would jsut use the drills for sword and cut out the middle man.

Every training organization is different.  In comparing my training with those from Naval, Marine, Coastie, and Flyboy, only the very basics are similar.  However, since we each perform different functions, then the more advanced stuff is specific for a reason.  However, it all lends itself to the same general function: Physical Fitness.

You say, Master Nonymous, that it sounds like every other workout derived from Martial Arts, but are not all workouts derived from the same general focus?  Whether it is Martial Arts, Wrestling, throwing a javelin, or just running, each is designed to perform a function.  The Forza workout is no different.  However, it is very different from other forms of workout in that the focus in on the fitness aspect rather than the martial aspect.

You say that muscle memory has little to do with what we are talking about here, but I disagree.  Even if Forza is a fitness aspect training, it still demonstrates sound forms of movement and control.  Above all else, control is the primary aspect of training when it comes to martial arts, especially when it comes to arts involving a tool such as a bokken.  From personal experience, the Forza movements nearly mirror those taught in Suburi (the Aiki-ken kata).

You bring up that the benefits would most benefit an “unfit and untrained individual,” but I must disagree.  I must also disagree that they would get similar benefits from other workouts on the market.  I have looked at about six weapon-specific sword or bokken workout routines and this one is the best, in my opinion.  I am neither unfit nor untrained, but am experienced in calisthenics, resistance workouts, and weapons practice.

Your categorization of the P90X program is also unfair.  Anyone who has trained extensively in calisthenics knows that an hour is about the optimal timing for a workout of any kind.  Any more and you become too fatigued to gain benefit (and could damage yourself), and less and you lose the endurance aspect of the training.  The fatigue that sets in is from muscle exhaustion.  The soreness is from the micro tears that happen in muscles when they build.  The exhaustion is from lack of endurance as it is building.  The sweat is just the body cooling itself.  You are correct, though, that P90X includes anti-adaptation syndrome routines by keeping things mixed up to a certain degree (muscle confusion is their name for it).

As for your comment that it is “effective in short bursts separated by periods of long more technical training,” I must ask what you mean.  Daily training for an hour is far from a short burst.  As for the long technical training, I do not know what you mean.  Are you suggesting that the training should continue longer than an hour?  All of my training suggests than the most you should do is no more than three hours of intense fitness training in a single day… usually separated by three to four times the amount of training time (i.e. if you work out for an hour then you should wait three to four between workouts).  Then again, if you are going for contained fitness (not general fitness), you could do more, but should be under the supervision of a trained professional at all times.

I would also like to know what you meant by “less experienced individuals enter[ing] the market?”  Tony Horton is a fully qualified personal trainer for twenty years.  If you mean that the routines are set up wrongly, then I would half agree with you.  A person who is unfit should not jump straight into the P90X program.  I have instructed others to this effect.  That is why there are other programs designed for the basic, then intermediate (I mentioned the Slim Series, then Power 90 programs).

You may see no benefit in the P90X video or others except for a regiment, but that might be all some people need.  Also, your professional opinion may count to some, but not to others.  Not everyone can afford a personal trainer or to attend a gym regularly at the same time (for fitness programs).  My professional opinion of the material presented in Forza and P90X is very high.  So high, that I often recommend P90X (or others depending on fitness level) to high school students seeking to enter the military.  Not to mention, my schedule is very erratic, so much so that I use a cardio routing in the mornings, Forza in the afternoons, and P90X in the evenings (time depending, but I get at least one in a day).

I am a real martial artist, and I get real benefit from the Forza program.  Again, you must look at your definition of what a “real martial artist” truly is.  Sumo, Aikido, Gung Fu, Karate, and Boxing, are all real martial arts and gain differing benefits from differing training styles.  Someone in Sumo would not get the benefit of running as a boxer might.  Someone in Aikido would not get the benefit of weighted jumping training that a person in Gung Fu might.  A kicking martial art would not get the same benefit in upper body training that a person with a striking art might.  Just as every body is different, every art is different, as well.

You are correct, that classes such as Forza are not meant to teach things.  It is meant as a workout.  I would no more suggest that you learn martial arts from a video as I would that you learn running from a book.  So, we agree that this workout should not be used in place of forms training.  You are correct that strength building and drill training are two separate things.  The Forza video is not meant to replace drills, only to allow you to use your tool (saber or bokken) in building strength.

As a swordsman, I am impressed that a bokken can be used as a resistance tool.  My Sensei’s are also impressed by it. (Is Sensei’s the proper plural?)  Whether you are jaded or not, it does not negate the fitness benefits of using a resistance tool in training. 

If the basic forms are correct, which they are in the Forza video, then the use of the forms in various ways are not detrimental to the training of the individual, whether they are training in martial arts or simple choreography.  It is a workout routine.  Tae Bo is a similar workout routine, and not a formal martial arts training… they even say so in the video.

It is not a waste of time for me.  It is not a waste of time for others I have turned onto this workout program.  Unlike normal training, this focuses on specific sets of muscles while using the very basic movements taught in martial arts.  It is not meant to supersede any training, as it helps with muscular and endurance building while using the basic movements that a martial artist should already know if they have used a bokken.  Otherwise, it shows the proper movements if they have not.

I would not suggest this video be the only thing you use if you are trying to train yourself into a general level of fitness.  This is a good core fitness training video and uses something that a person should already have (you can use a lightsaber for this as the weight difference is not much when compared to a bokken).  But, I personally use this, a cardio routine (video or running depending on weather), and P90X.  I’m not able to do all three every day, but I can do them enough to have built my fitness level.

Yet, you have not attempted to practice with it as I have with about half-a-dozen other videos.  Your opinion comes from personal bias that you have against the training style.  Before passing judgment on a routine, you should at least attempt it.  Without attempting it, you cannot know if it actually works or not.  It is akin to turning your nose up to a new dish because you do not think it will taste good.  Sampling it is the only way to find out.

And if you do not know kendo?  If you are practicing with a lightsaber as a hobby to show off while in costume you might be unfamiliar with martial arts sword use in general.  Most martial arts I know of don’t even allow weapon training until at least the third belt, so going into one to practice with their weapon drills is not very feasible.  As a martial arts instructor, you may have the knowledge to perform those drills, but others do not.  Personally, I do not have the slightest knowledge of Kendo drills, and I am trained in the Aikido variant of bokken use.

I must protest this and ask for an apology for myself and those whom I have deployed with.  The Army does not condone the use of performance enhancing drugs and regularly tests for them.  To suggest that deployed soldiers are doping is insulting to anyone who has ever worn the uniform, no matter the branch.

Were you familiar with Army training and deployment training, you would know that the average PT score drops during a deployment because the tested regiment is not trained.  When you are in combat, you don’t have a lot of time to do pushups, situps, and run.  So the score jump of 100 points is a big deal.

So, I would respectfully ask for an apology for your statement, Master Nonymous.  Thank you.

You misunderstand me sir. I am saying I can get ANY person to have that amount of improvement by using drugs instead of P90X or any work out. I never intended to imply the armed forces is using PED.

I 'm sorry for the misunderstanding but I think I have shown myself to be a very logical and level headed person.

I will reply in full in a bit.

True but are we talking about novices or experts? And do we simply ignore the advances in human movement science and medical health science and treat it all as the same?

Let me clarify: It is no different in that it is a workout that is simplified and put into a format where folks can follow along in a group and produce specific metabolic and medical changes that are expected of a group fitness class. The expectation is not that people do it for martial arts or technique but for exercise and fun. It is presumed to be fun because most people don't work out with swords. I do not think we can say that of this group. Like Tae Bo is to kick boxing, this is to swordplay and fitness. It is mixed for people who don't have the need for the details of the art. and Therefore will sacrifice certain things. That mauy be acceptable to any one person, but as a general rule I cannot endorse such a class for people just starting out in swordplay just as I would not recommend Tae Bo to those just starting out in kick boxing. You are getting more out of the actual practice than the popular one.
Ok If we want to elevate the discussion to this level I can.

The issue of neuromuscular plasticity and patterning deal with far more metrics than simply the global kinematic of the joints (what it looks like). While I cannot speak to the specifics of what the woman teaches or cues in her class, I can speak well to the biomechanics involved. Meaning that the external movements of the martial arts are merely the beginning of that process. There is a repetitive nature to such methods due to the group dynamic. The technique developed for sword play and the like has relatively little to do with the type of strength and NM patterning built in these types of training. While that is great for people who need something different, or something to catch their attention, it is counterproductive to what most people who are training for swordplay want to achieve. Since the focus is on creating a challenge for the body it will necessitate a distinct neuromuscular rhythm in addition to the co-activation patterns that create those forces.

in short, the patterning "muscle memory" while being superficially similar is actually very different.

I of course cannot argue with your subjective experience, but statistically speaking the group this would most benefit from it and the one that is most likely being targeted is folks who don't have sword play background and just think it's  a good work out.

You have background. You have technique. You have the necessary patters that can allow you to gain some benefits physically. But for those who don't doing it over and over will only strengthen the improper patterns or "muscle memory" and will inevitably bleed into the over all pattering of the body under stress.

I need some sources on that one. I have never heard that proposed or followed in any professional setting that I have been in. There are a couple of problem I have with that assessment:

1. I does not include intensity or relative challenge. Times will differ on that alone.
2. It does not differentiate between type of work out: endurance, cardio, burst, conditioning, strength. Relative times of the work out will fluctuate based on each of those goals.
3. It does not account for recovery times. Recovery times are the most important part of fitness regimens and often ignored. Some of the strongest people in the world dont look it and will pull maybe 10 lifts in an hour. They are HUGE lifts, but not that much of them. But sometimes it lasts 15 minutes.


Well, this stuff actually help me show my point.

Muscle fatigue is the muscle tiring, running out of fuel components and needing to recover them. But, that does not even approach what is happening at the individual fibers let alone the sarcomeres. You are correct that as you fatigue your risk of injury rises (why recovery times are so important). But it can also be because it is being improperly loaded, isolated, or injured. It is a lot of things but none of them are good. So, when people judge workouts on their level of fatigue, it get problematic. There are so many factors that go into your experience of fatigue it is impossible to root out any one vector.

Muscle soreness: Are you talking about acute or delayed onset? There has never been a single vector identified to my knowledge. And I have looked. But one thing is for sure, the soreness is not an indication of a "good workout" or even a seemingly challenging one. It's kind of mysterious actually. My brother and I talk about that all the time.

Sweat: Yes, sweat is cooling your off or getting rid of something through the skin. It is not a good indicator of relative intensity or difficulty. Some sweat more than others, if it's hot, your sick or whatever. It just is not that great an indicator.


What does the year look like? Does your periodization in your training go all year or week by week?

A month of including lots of intense workouts (sparring, long cycle kettle bell, and big lifts) separated by more measured training an punctuate by regular lay offs (not doing anything much). That is what I mean. If you are training for a competition or something obviously that will have an effect on the periodization.

Soccer moms, seniors, people who have never worked out in their life, people coming out of rehab, special populations, etc.

The fitness business end of things is consumer based. That's what I am reffering to.



Well even if my professional opinion means little to you (and it clearly does) facts are facts. And the problems I have with the program are shared by most of my colleagues who are far more schooled i these subjects than I am. And I have a lot of colleagues that swear by it. Hell I have friends that work at Beachbody who I say the same things to. Please don't take this personally, it is merely a professional opinion which is independent in it's value to on lookers.

Granted, but the audience here already has a sword analog to work out with. If you like it great. I still can't recommend it as a core building workout.
So here is where I loose you. On one hand you say the movement are almost identical in technique and form and then point to the fact they are not used to teach technique and are for a workout only. My question is, if the point of technique is to use as little energy and effort as possible, how do you accomplish that technique by trying to get the muscles to burn and all that jazz? 

Again, I thought that why we were playing with lightsabers.

Now few things: P90X and this bokken routine are not exercises for the core. They are activities that require core and so doing them will give you some benefit. They are methods and are prepackaged. Fitness is personal (but does not require a personal trainer) nor does it require all the things that people have been told they should.

Methods are only as good as the people practicing them. I am speaking to the objective facts about how the body work only.

Ok now you are making assumption about me and making some off handed accusations. I can support everything I say with fact and reason. I do not resort appeals to authority or bring up anecdotes. I understand that you find the systems valuable and thats great. But my personal bias does not come into it.

You do not know how many methods I have seen and tried out. We get hundreds of DVDs from all over with TONS of new workouts from all over. Most never see more than a local following, but they are plentiful and they are often very much the same. That why people buy them at such a rate.

I am sorry you think I am being biased without researching or thinking about what I say. If you can't tell that I am speaking with a little more thought then that, I don't know what more I can say.

And these are the people I think are going to not benefit from working out in that manner before they have technique. The goals and methods are distinct and different. Again, just like Tae Bo is better for no experience and lots, people who are kind of in-between, it might create bad patterns or create new compensations.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, but I do know a bit about Armed Forces training and the issues with it. I was pointing out that the example you gave is anecdotal in nature because it was not in a controlled setting. Raw scores can be changed during testing time with the use of drugs. The effects are temporary and often harmful, but the score will improve.

Master Nonymous, we are at odds with our individual preferences and techniques.  I recognize that and would like to move past it.  This is not about our individual egos or their stroking, but about the core training that was asked for in the initial post.

With that in mind, I suggested Forza and, albeit inadvertently, also suggested the P90X system.  For the sake of argument, I will withdraw the P90X as I do not know the fitness level of those taking this course.  It is good for those with a higher fitness level, but not so for those with mid to lower levels of fitness.

With that said, I would like to discuss the benefits of the Forza program and detail exactly what it is.  There are two variations of the program.  The first is a teaser program to whet the appetite of those interested and then the video program which has far more variation and a higher level of fitness appeal.

The first program can be found on the Men’s Fitness (http://www.mensfitness.com/training/pro-tips/the-forza-workout) website.  It is a relatively good workout to do and you need only the basic technique that you have picked up from using the lightsaber.  As a matter of fact, I would suggest using your lightsaber to work out with, as its balance will be foremost to the technique.

The second program, requires a little money.  It is purchased through the Powerstrike (http://www.powerstrike.com/programs/forza.htm) website (though it can be found cheaper on ebay or amazon).

It has been noted that the techniques it shows are poorly executed and can injure or cause degradation in form.  However, I would like to assure you that there is no degradation and in fact teaches the proper form in the video.

The video opens with proper grip and movement of the blade in the typical Japanese style and focuses upon control of the blade.  It focuses on proper posture, stance, and breathing as you begin the warmups.  It goes into footwork, balance, and center.

It burns approximately 600 calories, if you are looking for that route (more or less depending on your body type and fitness level).  The upper body and core strengthening comes more from controlling the blade, so move to heavier swords for higher levels of difficulty.  The legs are also a focus as you are doing quite a bit of footwork with this system.

In all, I would highly suggest this video for a number of reasons.  If you are trained in weapon use, it will be helpful for fitness and to branch out into other areas (i.e. Kendo).  If you are untrained, it will help develop control and technique for lightsaber choreography and spinning.  If you are just looking for a workout, it will leave you with a good feeling and well worked out.

If, however, you do not feel that it is working for you after trying it, then just put it back up for sale on amazon or ebay.  If you have questions regarding it, please PM me and I will answer them to the best of my ability.  I have been using this video at least three times a week for the past four months and feel confident in my abilities.

I did not ask for an apology of the misunderstanding, but an apology for the suggestion that my brothers and sisters used performance enhancing drugs to raise their physical training scores.  It was highly out of line for any fitness instructor to even suggest such a thing, let alone to suggest such a thing about the men and women of the United States Armed Forces.

If I may ask, though, what unit were you with when you went through the Master Fitness Trainer program to gain familiarity with the systems?  Also, with your credentials, why didn’t you take the appropriate steps to include or reevaluate whatever issues you had with it?  It is a common form that is offered after every MFT program (or similar programs in services other than Army).

You say that the example is anecdotal, but for a unit to raise their average APFT score from 146 to 239 during a 12 month deployment (8 of which are out-of-country), it takes a great deal of physical training.  Since the unit was not stationed at a base with anything more than a broken bow-flex, they turned to the P90X program for the entire year of deployment.  Having knowledge of military training, you should know the numbers as they are one of the first classes we have to go through (thus the reason I suggested the P90X program to the C.O.)

You say that raw scores can be changed during test time with the use of drugs, but you should also know that one of the things that happens during PT tests are the 20% random drug test rather than the 10%, just for that reason.  The effects are temporary, which is why they do not work for PT score averages, as you point out.

So, as I said before, can you please apologize for suggesting that the men and women of my unit were using drugs to artificially inflate their PT scores… twice.  The first in the original comment and the second quotes above.  It was uncalled for and insulting to anyone who has ever worn the uniform.  As one who is versed in military training and discipline, you should know this.  It is not just a dishonor to my unit, but also to your own and your instructors in the Master Fitness Training course that you went through to gain your knowledge of military training techniques.

He did not say they took PED, he said the same results could be achieved via PED. He also attempted to explain that to you as you misunderstood what he said, however you were disinclined see this.

He was also attempting to explain the flaws in the scoring, not offer insult to your unit. He has pointed out his disagreements with your statements, and the programs out there such as p90x due to his working experience in the physical fitness field. It is his job, every day, not something he simply does for recreation.

As such, he knows what he is talking about. Please, take the time to re-read the whole thread, go through both his answers and yours, and you may find that you are getting worked up when you dont need to.

Saberforum is a fun place meant for us to all be able to share our love of led sabers, and led saber combat. Not a place for arguments and grievances.

When I get a PM on a thread and come to find this level of inconsiderate behavior I get rather upset. This is a friendly community. Stop bickering.

MAV

Let us regroup with a realignment of the topic?

The idea of the tread was to consider particular exercises that were liked by those using them.

So rather than the whole of the PX90 which I have been on the fence with ordering because of cost alone, perhaps offer a specific series of movements or routines from the same that is specifically appreciated?

Rather than debate new age terms and processes perhaps offer a few specific aspects for the whole of the forum to use in general exercise; which should be noted were offered early on with consideration of pushup's and short comings of situps...but could be further expanded upon with more options.

When it comes to any comparative aspects there will always be polar considerations and proponents of a given style, technique, or methodology.

Truthfully I have been involved with many debates, here within the forums and throughout my life, it is in my nature to challenge that which I have experienced and know from training to be right or wrong...as was presented at the time.

Things do change and ideas constantly pop up, some with and some without official support, but this is not the thread for that...unless a given exercise is clearly and proven to be dangerous or damaging.

Where I had hoped the thread to go was..."I have found this exercise to be great in between heavy workout days" "my favorite is this" "I added my saber into my exercise with this" etc.

Not so much whole process and lifestyle applications, which has excellent value and merit...but is slightly off center.

So hopefully we can get the ship righted with specific exercises that offer something meaningful for you (members of the forum).

I will offer one thought from all the previous debate...I am the first to admit that I can be focused and attentive to subjects that have value to me...be these the mundane or even trivial like sith vs Jedi or how much hot chili to use or not use...or important subjects like bullying and communication...does that mean I am always right, hardly...even if I still think so.

With the debate it became clear that it was a kung fu vs karate, sweet vs salty, hot vs cold, etc. sort of argument...regardless of which side makes more sense to me or that I favor in particular, the argument will not be resolved due to the polar sources.

It will not be a "oh I see, well since you say it like that I will give up all that I know and understand to accept what you say" moment, be this because it is established or experimental processes/thinking.

So rather than fight over it, perhaps offer something of functional use to the forum as a whole...proof is in the pudding as it were.

Just say "try this"...not "do not try that".

With common sense of course..."I like to hit myself in the head with a brick" should be noted as a bad exercise.

So with that, on to not hitting ourselves in the head with bricks  :D

There's nothing wrong with body hardening exercises!  They can especially be fun if used in the partner-assisted fashion (with or without your partner's foreknowledge)   ;)

In all seriousness, and back on topic, if you want to get better or stronger at something, remember that repetition is preferable over weight.  With that said, find your preferred form/style and practice it.  Yup, it is as simple as that.

If you prefer spinning, then spin.  If you prefer a kata, then perform that kata.  Don't just do it for a minute or a couple of minutes, but do it until your muscles decide to say "frak off."

Performing a kata over and over may seem boring, but it will help you to imprint the forms into muscle memory.  Also, every kata should include all of the necessary skills for use of that form in a random setting (all of the appropriate blocks and strikes).

After a while, as with any plyometric exercise, that saber will start getting mighty heavy.  Make sure to use proper form.  If you are not sure, then video yourself and see what you need to work on (or post it here and others can help).  After a while, you will notice the feelings getting better, the moves getting easier, and the time lengthening before you have to stop.

If there is not a kata dedicated to your form or style that you prefer, then design one!  Makashi with twin shoto sabers, Vaapad with a single tonfa saber, Shii-Cho with a saberpike, make it up!  Be sure it includes all of the necessary attacks, blocks, and special moves as illustrated in the fiction/based martial art.

Funny you bring this up.  I'm actually doing exactly that.  Though it's mostly just for the challenge of it rather than a belief that it'll be truly applicable.  It certainly is harder than it seems.  

EDIT: For actual combat practice, I still do prefer the Shii-Cho/Djem-So Forms.

Shii-Cho is still my go-to Form. I've always wanted both a saber staff and a pike. Thanks to Master Nonymous, we can see what Shii-Cho looks like with a saber staff.

I'd REALLY like to see Makashi with a Yari/Pike variation.

im just adding what i have done over the years for sword play practice ... i have 2 bokkens.. one is made of a heavier wood with a metal core... very hard to find it was.... but i started praticing with a normal run of the mill 15$ bokken... or even a broom handle cut and grip taped to the correct lfull length of a saber.. can be used ....

the first parts i did.. were just as any true master wold teach a puipal.. basic stance, with forward strike.. 10 times.. trying to be precice and not let the "blade" wiggle or jiggle when finishing the strikes.. much like in kendo practice.. following this with each strike possible.. more of a "teaching your body the movements"

for excercises i just put on wrist weights.. and did more repetitions .. then went to heavier and heavier swords/bokkens.... its a really good workout.. and gets the blood puppin...
for core workouts, i use the leg lift method.. lay on the grouand andhave a weight heavy enough to help keep you down, but not to much to make it hard to breathe.. then keeping egs straight, bring them straight up.. then drop them to the ground.. BUT STOP THEM ^ INCHES FROM THE FLOOR.. do this 10 times.. then rest for 15 sec.... then d it again.... alternate this excersise every other day with the above method for body memory strikes...

another type of core strengthening can be added t the leg lifts.. by simply starting with them both up, then drop down in the middle, bring them up, then drop to the left, then back up.. then drop to the middle, back up, then to the right, back up, and repeat.. i will personally guarantee you will get a very good core workout from this.. as well as you can intensify this method by having a partner to stand at your shoulders.. and lightly push your feet down at random in the left middle right pattern so that your core is constantly trying to counter the force..

REMEMBER.. the key to this core workout is to NOT LET YOUR FEET TOUCH , but get as close to the ground, as possible.... some will start out only being able to do this for a minute, or only get 5 done and be hurting, its ok to burn in the stomach, it just means that weakness is leaving your body...


also.. a good focus/will power/determination exercise you can practice is "the plank".... hold your stomach and mid body straight, on your toes and resting on your elbows at a 90* angle.. for roughly 60 seconds, or up to 120 seconds, depending on the focus/will/determination you want to bolster... but 1 minute/60 sec.. is more the enough.. any more and your just showing off.. lmao.... i will have pics for each of these methods described... might even be able to get some person videos made, as i am a licensed massage therapist at a Fitness, massage, nutrition center

as most saber/sword combat is focused alot on movements of the core to gain the strength and the majority of movements, "power comes from the hips".... most instructors might say.. as many have said to me ....

i am hoping that the up coming months and videos that i make and post will be up to par with the community.. and look forward to passing on

again i am not trying to be an authority on the "perfect" training for lightsabers.. simply giving my insight on what has given almost everyone i have worked with what everyone wants when they get advise on fitness... results...

that being said, look forward to some vids in the coming months

and when he get upset he lets me out of my cage to settle things!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Ke3cHeob0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Ke3cHeob0#)



I like this Method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsbhPI3AXQo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsbhPI3AXQo#)

I would like to inform you that I just sprayed my monitor with about half a mouthfull of coffee and aspirated the other half...

You should post warnings before posting youtube clips like that...

LMAO!!!!   Screen protectors... Never drink coffee with them..

(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/darthsabre72/2012-12-302012-12-30002006_zpsc60b196a.jpg)
 ;D

The colors in your Shii-Cho footwork diagrams now make SO MUCH SENSE.

LMAO!!!  :D

So you finally disclosed my dark secret ...  ;D

So this is as good a place as any to ask.  I'm currently looking for an exercise that will specifically work my shoulders and that general area.  Preferably without using free weights or machines if possible.  But if I need em I can get em.

Anyone know anything good? 

Kettle bells are the weight of choice for the should girdle. Doing front and side lifts with dumb bells is a bodybuilding thing which would not give you a ton of benefit forth work you would put in. It is also not a great pattern to be going for if doing saber.

There is not a better exercise for the entire body than push ups. Shoulder core, etc. It may be boring, but it is the one exercise you find totally world wide. And you can do them anywhere.

Bear crawls and hand balancing as well are great body weight exercises that won't risk putting strength on dysfunction. The shoulder should be relaxed and responsive but stable in a very dynamic way, Body weight is the way to go in my opinion.

It worked for my injury and my buddies. He went from a dislocation to competing in less than a year.

if i might add my own  opinion.. or rather anther option for shoulder training.. take a broom... i know it sounds funny.. but the head of the broom has a good weight.. and practice the sword swings.. at a tree or other hard surface.. try to do it smoothly.. in a straight line.. and stop the broom stick just before the tree trunk.. or the hard surface.. do this over and over.. till you have a good hold and can stop the broom stick with very little shaking... a solid smooth swift strike with muscle memory can make your saber dueling very efficient and it helps to teach the body good self awareness and endurance... i hope this helps.. i will have a short video soon of this example.. thank you for reading

again i am no master, simply what i have followed over the years as i practice swordsmanship myself

For a cheaper alternative to kettle bells, use a 1 liter soda bottle.  Preferable one with a good grip such as All Sport or Powerade (with the hand-shaped grip).  Fill two with water and hold on.  It is the same as using a military 2-liter canteen but with a little extra weight.

Begin with your feet shoulder width apart, weight evenly placed on each leg, knees slightly bent (to not be locked).  Your arms should be comfortable at your sides, shoulders straight, chest lifted, head and neck facing directly to the front.

Your arms, through the entire exercise, should be straight with a slight bend to your elbow and your wrist locked in line with your forearm.  All movements should be fluid and even, both raising and lowering.

----------

First, raise your right arm to a forty-five degree angle down in front of you in one count (i.e. one-thousand-one), hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Second, raise your right arm to a forty-five angle down to the side in one count, hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Third, raise your right arm parallel to the ground in front of you in two counts (i.e. one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two), hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Fourth, raise your right arm parallel to the ground to the side in two counts, hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Fifth, raise your right arm to a forty-five degree angle up in front of you in three counts (i.e. one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, one-thousand-three), hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Sixth, raise your right arm to a forty-five angle up to the side in three counts, hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Seventh, raise your right arm straight up in an arm to the front in four counts (i.e. one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, one-thousand-three, one-thousand-four), hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Eighth, raise your right arm straight up in an arc to the side in four counts, hold it for one count, lower it, and do the same on the left.

Repeat from step one until muscle failure.  If you are unable to do five full repetitions, empty half of the liquid from the containers or use a smaller container until you can successfully perform ten repetitions.

----------

You may ask why you are only raising one arm at a time.  The reason is because raising both arms engages your lower back and has very little to do with your shoulders.  Also, it causes your back to bend and your shoulders to give the majority of the work to the neck and pectorals.

On the second day, you should work with your saber (alternating between the bottle weights and this will help with mobility).

With the proper foot placement (as with the bottles), you should spin it with your dominant hand.  Focus on going slow with it.  The slower the better.  Focus on full spinning motions and control of the blade so it moves in an even and precise manner (not speeding up, slowing down, or jerking around).

After a minute of spinning stop and hold your saber with your dominant hand near the top of the grip and your non-dominant hand one fist lower.  The blade should be parallel to the ground.

Raise the saber with two counts over your head with the blade pointing straight behind you and parallel to the ground.  Lower it back to the starting position.  Perform ten repetitions.

Next, switch the non-dominant hand and repeat the above steps with your hand placement switched.  Do this until muscle failure.

----------

With these two exercises, alternated for six days and one day of rest), your shoulder strength should be raised in no time.  You will notice that you will be doing more repetitions of both in about three to five weeks.=

excellent post.. point for you

Thank you.  I'll take as many Light Side points as you can spare  ;D

I am actually writing up a lightsaber strength/flexibility script for an upcoming training routine.  This is one of the exercises in the routine.  As is the saber spinning exercise I included during a quick edit.

martial art that are great for strength building tend to be ones associated to mma in some form because frankly they go hard on their conditioning most traditional stuff has the softer approach as it caters to people who are not serious about fitness as well as those who are.

have you thought about maybe doing a brazilian jiu jitsu class? its great fun great for your core strength and you can vary its intensity its also likely to be far more practical than your average martial arts school that tend to have a god complex instructor without little even controlled sparring for general fitness start running. Im not saying this is all traditional martial arts schools its just if you dont know what your doing when you walk in there you will pretty much believe whatever they teach you, brainwashed  mums of karate kids being the prime example there are good clubs and shell clubs do your research. getting your orange belt etc or bb in a couple of years is not a good thing.

if you want to do flashy stuff for your choreography for sabering then a very traditional type of kung fu class is likely to be fun and efficient for that but in terms of fitness not so good or realism/fight effiency. nothing however stops you doing the kung fu class and then doing sets of push ups, chin ups, tabata circuits etc when you get home. the kung fu etc will likely motivate you to want to work out more. again nothing wrong with kung fu i am a practitioner but the low level resistance and the low intensity of most classes means it isnt going to turn you into bruce lee.

also if you willing to splash get a power mace, its is literally a altered kettlebell in the shape of a mace that you use for sword cuts perfect for ultrasabering.

the best fitness book without a doubt is martin rooneys training for warriors.

start doing tabata circuits preferably with but the closest alternative to running

this is a circuit that consists of high intesnity short rounds so it will run like this

10 secs off (first ten prep time)

20 secs on

repeat for 8 rounds so total time would be (excluding first ten prep) 4 minutes

so lets say you alternate exercises

first round      sit up  twists

second round  kickouts/leg extensions (sit up on your ass cross your legs in front of you kick your legs straight pull them back without touching the floor can be done with hands behind your for balance or crossed on chest)

third round    push ups wide arm (look up for good form) even if you cant do them now do then on your knees do them fast to build strength two - weeks of these circuits and your new strength will allow you to do them fully)

fourth round jumping squats (stand shoulder width apart back straight head up squat down as you come up to your peak before going back down jump)

for the next four sets just go back round again

other good exercises are burpies, on the spot box jumps (dont spring jump, do NOT step up onto your toes to jump jump with heels flat on the floor), bear crawls up and down, have someone hold pads and hit or kick them fast (form is not important with strikes for a cardio circuit just speed and enough technique to not hurt yourself) any weighted exercise that is not a compound movement ( ie dont stick a deadlift set in there you'll over do it and and hurt yourself swings with a kettlebell 14 kilos is standard for a guy starting fitness ten for a women i recommend about 4 - 6 above that as a starter if you already workout)

@dhenwood:  I have to disagree with some of your post.  I have seen some really great MMA and SJJ programs that do focus a great deal on conditioning and strength building.  I have seen some that are nothing more than money making machines or attract a thug/criminal mindset element.  There is softness in all martial arts programs as well as some really great ones.

When picking a martial arts program, I agree with dhenwood that you need to make sure that your program focuses on your fitness.  My instructor is a short man of Hawaiian Islander descent and he believes in conditioning.  I would be willing to wager money that his intermediate level students would crush the extra advanced students of my former master's school.  The difference is conditioning and seriousness given to commitment.  You don't want to enter a program that gives you a black belt after six months.  I know of some martial arts programs that only have 4 belts and you don't get the Black belt until you have spent 10 years of your life training. 

In agreement with the spirit of dhenwood's post, I believe that you should greatly focus on fitness.  There will always be room for improvement and successes but you should never believe that you will learn to wield a saber (or jump into an fight) without being hit, losing, or outright failing.  Failure is the greatest educator of the truly successful.  Bruce Lee had to lose a fight and almost his life to learn that tradition is not always practical.  Although Bruce Lee was a major BA in movies, his was not always successful in life. 

In reality, you will work hard and get better than you are now.  You should find programs willing to make you better but your instruction should give you some practical applications as well.  I know that in a street fight, my katas are not going to go in order for me to obtain victory.  But my kata does give me muscle memory that if someone grabs me in a particular way, I'll feel comfortable and fluid in my response to that attack. 

A quote from my Master Wright:  "The best lesson I can give you is hit you as hard as I can during a fight and then help you develop the most appropriate response how to survive that attack.  If anyone thinks I am here to teach you how not be hit raise your hand.  For those too scared to raise you hand, the best way not to get hit is to run as fast as possible for the rest of your life."

I strongly suggest that you read the training regimen that dhenwood posted.  It is a nice way to start building your endurance. 

Definitely true Blue, the problem with MMA is that any moron can start teaching it with any martial arts experience and it will attract thugs who thank god normally dont stick around. it does have the highest conditioning though of any martial art mainly because it takes its fitness from muay thai and bjj( which gets its stuff from judo originally)  and in terms of school of hard knocks style sports muay thai and judo are horrendously hard to train in, closely related sports to these styles are always really hard in turn.

The problem with traditional martial arts is that they are so widespread you will likely come across many a fool teaching something they dont really know or something they run as a business, perhaps my view is more rose tinted as in the uk mma isnt that widespread so people control the flow of who gets what easily, example being fake bb in bjj are outed quickly and its quite regular for them to have people turn up at their gym and complain or contact their original instructor, insurance company etc and out them.

unfortunately finding a reputable traditionalist club is hard because of the 100 of governing bodies per sport who do you trust so speak, hell there probably about 20 'british' karate championships per year if you know what i mean, its a very divided community with a lot of mcdojos so to speak.

i do like traditional arts of course and happily train kung fu and sanshou, i did however check out the lineage of my instructor etc and go to great lengths to discover if he had a good lineage, a good competition record imo also helps - or at least the want to compete mcdojo teachers never compete themselves it seems.

anyways we digress from the main thread, any school in any discipline is damn good to train in, just thoroughly make use of google and also shop around in different gyms AVOID INSTRUCTORS THAT HAVE A TRAIN WITH US OR THEM ATTITUDE my teachers encourage me to attend seminars etc it is very good for your learning.

Blue points for your response btw healthy discussion is good and i did sound too biased towards the stuff i train.

You make a very good point dhenwood about going to seminars.  There is nothing better than an open seminar or testing your martial arts in other tournaments.  My Master only holds one tournament a year in order to prevent the "I'm in this for the trophies" mentality but I do attend other tournaments offered by other schools in order to see how my art stands against others.  I have a friend named John Frances who consistently wins against me.  In whatever we do, I usually go home with 2nd and he with 1st.  We do well but he is a benchmark by which I grade myself in order to over come weaknesses that I have.  It is from him that I learned I tense my shoulders before striking making it easier for him to anticipate when I am coming.  I am still working on that.

In my job, we have standards that we have to meet for our laboratory.  Then, we take our results and compare them against other labs using the exact same equipment.  This gives us information us a base level from which to operate.  We want patients to receive precise results no matter what healthcare organization they visit.  We then compare our results against everyone no matter what type of analyzer.  This gives us information on whether or not we need to invest in different equipment or different manufacturers.  This allows our lab to say we are accurate in the result we provide to patients. 

I simply transfer that same mentality to martial arts.  I know my dojo is precise if I attend other SKS schools and can perform at the same level as other brown belts.  I know that my dojo is accurate if I can attend other schools and hold my own in tournaments. 

I feel compelled to add some science:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEIHeaNmSok#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEIHeaNmSok#ws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033ogPH6NNE#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033ogPH6NNE#ws)

You should only offer opinions of something you know...that is the truth in the tea leaves...you must drink the tea before you can review the flavor.

 ;D

Both of those...both of those were welcome and appreciated   ;D

 ;D

This is the most interesting forum interface I've come across thus far.

Welcome to the forums!

 ;D