Saber Forum

So as I'm typing this I'm watching Something, Something, Darkside (the Family Guy parody of Empire Strikes Back for those that don't know) and before the battle of Hoth Leah (Lois) says to the rebel fleet "We're being attacked by the Empire, and though we're on a planet with infinite ways to escape we have decided that we will take the route that leads straight towards the Imperial fleet." even despite seeing this before I still literally laugh out loud at that line because it points out the rebels' absurd escape strategy in Empire Strikes Back, what's even funnier is the fact that watching Empire as a kid I never really thought much about it and it's only now in my adult years that I really realized it. I mean think about they have the whole planet to utilize in their escape and they take the one route that leads straight into the enemy. LOL  ::)

Military wise, this makes sense to escape by other routes, and even then, they shouldnt be in an open spot (though hidden underneath the snow and terrain).

Looking back on it from when I watched it as a kid and young teen...I never noticed that at all.

Maybe a route straight through is better for cover. That way its harder to pick them off as they fly in different directions. That's why there was the massive lazer cannon.

I laugh at that too, along with the cookie monster joke. lol But really, I think that is one more thing that isn't entirely covered in the movie. It's sort of implied that with an Imp Fleet that big, and the MASSIVE number of fighters carried by each destroyer, let alone what the Executor carried, the ships would have been deployed in a web to cover any escape route fairly well. Those fighters coupled with the destroyer's big guns would have effectively stopped most ships from getting through, save for the Ion Cannon. And of course, with that many Imp Ships, the Rebels are of course going to concentrate their escape efforts within the Ion Cannon's range of fire, knowing that the weapon will provide them an escape window until the shield goes down and an orbiting destroyer manages to slag it. Also, as I said before, they would know that sending ships in any direction except that escape window would be suicide, as none of the Gallofree Yards Transports would have the firepower to take on a destroyer, even with 2 X-Wings for escort. That one route was effectively their only way out. ;)


Yeah.... I'm a super geek. lol

@ Manronn
You beat my explanation!

We were getting at the same idea. ;)

Manroon had a great answer.

With roughly half a dozen Imperator Star Destroyers in orbit, along with Executor, which direction should they have gone?  It takes 8 minutes for an Imperator in low Hoth orbit to move to the point opposite itself (or any other point) at full power⁽¹⁾, allowing them to easily set up a blockade.  The Millennium Falcon matches the acceleration of X-Wings during the Battle of Endor, X-Wings appear to be much faster⁽²⁾ in realspace than the Gallofree transports, and the Imperators demonstrate that they are much faster than the Falcon (or it would have easily eluded them without need to hide in the asteroid belt).  Therefore, the transports cannot outrun the Star Destroyers, and their only possible escape comes from getting far enough away from Hoth's mass shadow to enter hyperspace before any of the Imperial ships (other than the disabled Tyrant) come into weapons range.  That leaves them exactly one avenue of escape--the direction of Tyrant, ie, within an arc of space in line of sight from the planetary ion cannon.

I am, of course, assuming you (and Lois) aren't suggesting that they attempt to stay on the planet; they're pretty clearly unable to fight off the AT-ATs, meaning that loss of their shield is inevitable and orbital bombardment unavoidable.  Since a single Imperator is capable of reducing the surface of a planet to molten slag ("Base Delta Zero"), attempting to stay on the surface would be suicide.  (In fact, orbital bombardment was Admiral Ozzel's intended strategy, but his exit from hyperspace too close to Hoth alerted the Alliance--an ultimately fatal mistake.)

(1) Based on a 150km orbit around Hoth, and using the average velocity demonstrated by Imperators at Endor--see the Star Wars Technical Commentaries (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#propulsion)
(2) By "faster" I mean "higher linear acceleration" in realspace

Manroon, Vyk you guys both make very valid points and I concede to them especially with all the facts you have supporting them. Still you have to admit that looking at it from my previous standpoint it's still pretty funny. BTW Vyk in no way was I implying the rebels stay on Hoth, it doesn't take a super geek (as Manroon so elequently refered to himself) to know that would've been absolute suicide. I just simply found it pretty humorous how Family Guy poked fun at what could be percieved as a plot hole to the casual viewer. Mind you not everybody would even bother to read the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, I'm sure Seth McFarlane didn't. lol

EVERYBODY should read the SWTC!  I'm currently working on making my wife, my boss, and my friend's 6-year-old daughter read them!

(...ok, not really.  But they are really good.)

LOL It appears I'm not the ONLY Super Geek (if that wasn't a given on this forum) ;)

And you are right, that scene in Family Guy was pretty darned funny.

I always thought of it the way Manny and Vyke do. Although arrogant, Imps are not entirely stupid, so I always assumed they brought at least a small fleet, enough to form a decent blockade. This would mean the Rebels had no choice but to fly straight towards the enemy, cause no matter what direction they chose their was at least on Star Destroyer. So you might as well go in the direction the ion cannon can help you.

It was kinda implied in the movie, but I think a simple "Why don't we go around?" "Cause they blockaded us, there is no way around." during the briefing would have been good.

they did bring a fleet, Death Squadron.  They make several references to the fleet in the movie too.

Darth Vader orders Admiral Piett: "Deploy the fleet so that nothing gets off that system."

That was the scene where Vader Force chokes Admiral Ozzel.

Later when the Millenium Falcon is clamped on the back of the command tower of a Star Destroyer, Han Solo says "The fleet's beginning to break up."

Death Squadron included the following ships at the time of the Battle of Hoth, based off Wookiepedia:

Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts
    Executor 
 
Imperial-class Star Destroyers

    Accuser   
    Adjudicator
    Avarice (Battle of Hoth; destroyed)
    Avenger 
    Conquest (Permanent)
    Devastator (Permanent)
    Stalker (Permanent)
    Tyrant (Permanent)
    Vengeance II
    1 unidentified Imperial II Star Destroyer (Battle of Hoth; destroyed in an asteroid collision)
 
Victory-class Star Destroyers

    Firewind

Estimated total of fighters  would be about 768, based on Wookiepedia listings.  This total only include the TIE series, Star Destroyers also carry Assault Gunboats and Skipray Blastboats

I'm not sure I believe Wookiepedia.  Earlier today (after making my previous post) I skimmed the novelization of Empire Strikes Back, and noted something.  It states that Executor had "five wedge-shaped Imperial Star Destroyers guarding it."  A few pages later, the first sentence of chapter four begins, "SIX ominous shapes appeared in the black space of the Hoth system[...] Inside the largest of the six Imperial Star Destroyers, Darth Vader sat alone in a small spherical room."  (SIX is capitalized since it's the first word of the chapter.)  Now, it's been a while since I watched the movie all the way through, so it's possible that we see Executor and a full 10 Imperators at some point (we could not have seen a Victory since there was never a Victory model--the first time one was even mentioned was the X-Wing computer game), but in a brief reviewing of the fleet's scenes leading up to their arrival at Hoth, I only saw 5 Imperators at any one time.  We could handwave a bit if we're so inclined ("well, the other ships were outside the system or enroute or something"), but canon evidence suggests that when Vader refers to his fleet, he means exactly six ships, and Wookiepedia is wrong.

Now a mea culpa: the novelization also strongly suggests that it's the unfortunate Captain Needa's Avenger that was hit by the ion cannon blast.  (Man, he did not have a good day, did he?)  I, too, used Wookiepedia as a source for my previous post, which is why I referred to Tyrant, seemingly erroneously.

 Wookieepedia does state that the fleet initially consisted of the Executor and five Star Destroyers, and from then on always had at least that many.  I also noticed a mistake in my earlier post, I meant to take out the Accuser and Adjudicator, as they were not present at the battle but I forgot.  The Executor, Avenger, Conquest, Devastator, Stalker, Tyrant were all present at the battle, they were permanently assigned to the fleet.  The Vengeance II does not say what battles it was a part of so it may not have been there and the same goes for Firewind.  Vader had the authority to reassign ships to his fleet as he saw fit, so they may or may not have been present.

Either way, the main point of my post was to show that there was a fleet at Hoth for those who weren't sure and to try and clear up confusion about the battle.

I might point out, the novelizations are regarded as a step below the movies canon wise, and have a number of inaccuracies themselves. One good example is the Blue Squadron / Red Squadron name switch, and there are others as well.

BTW... Imperator is the name of an individual destroyer, not a class. The class of Star Destroyer Vyk is referring to is the Imperial Class, if I'm not mistaken. ;)

Oh, and another thing to take into account if we wanna get deeply technical. The number of Destroyers shown as part of the Fleet on screen in Empire Strikes Back actually changes from the original Theatrical Release to the Special Edition. Knowing the changes made to the DVD and Blu Ray releases, it may well have been altered again, so it's probably darned near impossible to be sure of the EXACT size of the fleet.

I initially had noted that the movies took priority over the novelizations or radio dramas, but ended up editing that out when trying to make my text a little more readable.  That'll teach me.  ;)  There are a few cases where I wish the novelizations were the authoritative source; at the very least, I wouldn't have to facepalm every time I heard about the Falcon's speed being measured using an Earth-specific unit of distance rather than time.  :(  (Yes, I'm aware of the retcon, but the novelization simply uses "standard time-parts" and it makes vastly more sense.  On the other hand, I've heard that some of the earlier versions of the script state that Solo's line was a blatant lie and Obi-Wan knew it because of the nonsensical unit.)

As for Imperator vs Imperial, you're mistaken.  ;D  At no time do the movies or their novelizations use either Imperial or Imperator as a class designation.  You do frequently see mentions of "Imperial Star Destroyers," but they include referring to both Executor and her five escorts as "Imperial Star Destroyers".  For example, see the quote I used above, "Inside the largest of the six Imperial Star Destroyers, Darth Vader sat alone in a small spherical room."  Imperator as the class name dates back to 1978; you can read more here (http://theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#description).  (Have you gathered that I <3 SWTC?)

Aside from the above, I usually use Imperator because of the above-mentioned canonical use of Imperial as a statement of allegiance.  If we use Imperial as the class name, it's unclear, when referring to an "Imperial Star Destroyer", whether it's a Star Destroyer of the Imperial class or a Star Destroyer used by the Empire.  Using Imperator solves that dilemma.

I haven't picked up the Blu-Ray releases yet (they're on my Life Day ;) wish list!), but I don't think I've seen anybody point out the number of visible Star Destroyers as one of the changes.  (And given that I'm by far not the most pedantic SW fan out there, I would have expected to see somebody comment on it.)

A notable exception to my love of SWTC and one place where I disagree with the Commentaries is Saxton's assertion that Executor is not a Star Destroyer, but some other classification (he uses Star Dreadnought) and that Star Destroyer only refers to the smaller ships (in the same way that real-world ships can be frigates, destroyers, cruisers, etc).  I agree that would make more sense and dearly wish it were so, but as noted above, the novelizations explicitly refer to Executor as a Star Destroyer outside of character speech, so his rationalization that characters in the movies only call Executor a "Star Destroyer" in times of stress is irrelevant.  On the other hand, we do have EU evidence of "Star Dreadnaughts" and "Star Battlecruisers" in sources such as the Ep 2 & 3 Incredible Cross-Sections (which, in what I'm sure is sheer coincidence, were written by Saxton).

The point wasn't to point out how many ships were there, merely to show that multiple ships were blockading the planet, forcing the rebels to punch through rather than go around.

Oh, do I beg to differ! The movies and their novels might not mention the class, but virtually every EU Novel I've read refers to Imperial Class Star Destroyers or Imperial Class II Star Destroyers, otherwise commonly referred to as Impstars and Impstar Deuces. The X-Wing series particularly is littered with the term. I grant you that it is a tad confusing, but considering that the Imperial Class is the most widely used Destroyer in the Empire at the time, it's a safe assumption by any Rebel or Imperial that a Star Destroyer is Imperial Class unless otherwise stated. Most of the EU will either say 'Star Destroyer' 'Imperial Star Destroyer' 'Impstar Deuce' 'Super Star Destroyer' 'Executor Class' or 'Victory Class', the most common of those being the first three. ;)

As for that website..... 1) Sad though it might be, Lucas has always ranked the early novels and materials as lesser canon, so I'd be inclined to disagree with the name put on one set of blueprints. If you were to follow that logic, the Falcon wouldn't even be a YT-1300. ;) 2) I'm not overly inclined to trust the claims of a website that refers to the Shield Domes of a Star Destroyer as Scanner Globes. I've read enough X-Wing and played enough flight games to know what those suckers are. Primary. Targets. lol You may even recall, one had to be destroyed in ROTJ before Arvil Crynid could go spinning out of control and slam into Executor's Bridge. It was commented specifically after the explosion that the forward shields had gone down.

Actually, not to get off topic, but I'd love to see a breakdown of the shield projection on the Executor Class. On the Impstars, the two top domes are generally referenced as covering Port and Starboard topside shields respectively, and the bottom dome seems to cover the ship's keel, which I would assume needs less coverage since it's usually less of a target than the topside. Of course, with Executor's structure and the references in the films, one has to assume that the domes above the bridge covered the tower, and that other unseen projectors took care of the bow, body, and other areas of the ship. X-Wing has references that seem to back that theory up, but I've never seen an actual set of blueprints on the class.

Manroon, I'd suggest reading http://theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes (http://theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes).  It includes a quote from Richard Edlund of ILM (shared winner of ROTJ's Academy Award for visual effects) stating that they're radar domes.  The X-Wing series is fun (largely due to a strong power bias toward fighters and away from capital ships), but games that are designed to allow one X-Wing to defeat a Star Destroyer should probably not be considered particularly authoritative.  :)

If you were to insist on them being shield projectors, it might interest you to know that there are a number of them on Executor.  For example, you can see two on the superstructure aft of the bridge in a picture of the studio model here (http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbarbican/eydc5/5r28executor.jpg), and I seem to remember there are a bunch more if you look closely enough.  I think there were multiples of them in XWA also (is that the reference you meant?), but I could be misremembering.

I'm sure we could argue about the naming issue for bloody ages, so how about this: we'll just always refer to them as Impstars and all will be well.  :D

This does bring up something that drives me nuts about the EU.  When you have two conflicting sources, which one is right?  Earliest?  Latest?  Most amusing? ;) Particularly through the '90s you often saw novels repeatedly contradict each other about both important and unimportant topics, frequently in an absolutely maddening way.  (If you're overly pedantic like I am, anyway.)  Character issues are even worse.  I can hardly remember how many times (in SW chronology) Leia bounced back and forth between "I've come to terms with Vader being my father" and "Oh no Vader's my father I can't deal with this!" depending on who was writing the book.  >:(

If both sources are the same canon class.... you go to Wookieepedia and see what the people there have decided on.

I shall agree with you on referring to the Destroyers as Impstars, since it's a term we both agree refers to that ship class anyways, regardless of what the ship class name actually is. :)

I also concur with Luna on the Wookiee. As far as so many conflicting novels... particularly on the Leia issue, I agree it's maddening. Personally, I've found a particular group of authors I like best, and I have so far stuck largely to those authors works. I've actually focused most largely on the X-Wing novels, a few of the major hardback releases (Shadows, Courtship, Thrawn Trilogy, etc), and on the early novels. I LOVE Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Solo Trilogy. EXCELLENT reading.

Thanks for that info on the model of Executor! Most interesting stuff. I'll certainly not dispute that Radar Domes are what the model builder may have intended them to be, with that quote, but... the movie itself forces me to hold my position on the final outcome. I'll grant you that the Rogue Squadron games can't really be taken as very canon, nor can any game really, though they are decent sources for some evidence depending on the issue in question, they're always up for debate. However, the actual Novel Series X-Wing tends to follow the same line, which is I think something to consider. In fact... though I can't quote the page..... there is a passage in Iron Fist, a novel of that series, in which a pilot lands his stolen TIE between the two domes on top of a SSD and later fires his lasers, destroying both domes and dropping the shields. The passage specifically referred to them as Shield Generators, and the event of their destruction dropping the shields around the bridge was specifically referenced repeatedly in the novel. It should be noted as well, the X-Wing Novel Series dealt extensively with three Super Star Destroyers. Lusankya, Iron Fist (formerly Brawl), and Razor's Kiss, and in fact detailed the destruction of two of those three. Courtship of Princess Leia detailed the destruction of Iron Fist. (KISS MY WOOKIEE! lol)


Is it just me, or is this a great conversation? I can't remember the last time we had something like this going on the forum, and I'm loving the technical debate. :)

I agree that they are shield generators.  In ROTJ, the Port side globe explodes on the Executor.  The very next scene, the line is that the shields were down.   That seems pretty definitive to me.

Though it always boggles my mind, Why put the generator in such a vulnerable spot?

Technical debates are what I do best.  :)  Over a decade ago, I used to be active on the HPG Uplink BattleTech forum, and after a period of time, the term "Vykpost" came into use to describe an overly detailed rebuttal.  (It should probably disturb me how proud I am of that.)


Absolutely agree on authors.  Some of them I love (Zahn, Stackpole, Allston, and Crispin come readily to mind).  Some not so much.  A lot of the early books (Splinter, the Han Solo prequels) were incredibly good.  The Hand of Thrawn novels are an interesting case; taken on their own, they're not exceptional (especially for Zahn), but the impressive part about them is how thoroughly he managed to tie up pretty much every loose plot end from the pre-NJO books and comics.  On the other hand, the only reason I care about anything KJA wrote is because some of it's referenced in I, Jedi.  :)

Story time: quite a few years ago I was reading Darksaber while in the bathroom, and accidentally dropped it in the toilet.  The book was ruined, but I wasn't too bummed by the event.  About a year ago I thought "it can't really be as bad as I remember" so I picked up another copy.  I quickly came to the conclusion that I had put it in the right place the first time.  :P

A neat little detail in both the Thrawn trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn duology that it took me a number of re-readings to notice is how each of them start.  The beginning of all five books are the same as the Original Trilogy in that they start with an Impstar in space.  (The Prequels also all start with a ship in space, although obviously only the last is a Star Destroyer--a Venator class, in that case.)


Now back to our regularly scheduled argument: :D
I remember the part you're mentioning from Iron Fist--IIRC it's Piggy that makes a barely-controlled landing next to the shield generators.  I do feel compelled to point out, however, that the X-Wing books are explicitly based on the computer game(s), so they can't really be considered any more authoritative than the game they're derived from.  I do like some of the references to the game, though; one I remember in particular, early in the first book IIRC, Corran (and others) are in a simulator running the Redemption scenario, which was one of the more annoying missions in the first game.

Correlation does not equal causation.  :)

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png)

Wookieepedia has an interesting article about the domes under debate.  While we all know and accept that Wookiepedia isn't always accurate, it is something to consider.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ISD-72x_deflector_shield_generator_dome (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ISD-72x_deflector_shield_generator_dome)

According to them, it's both a shield generator and sensor globe.

I think I could get with Kev on that dual purpose thing.

Also, I would imagine the reason the domes are so exposed (unless George is a giant Disney freak XD) is for better projection coverage. A ball on a stick can project over more area than a bump on the hull, which may also lead into why the Mon Cal MC-80s have the redundant shield projector design, thereby covering for the smaller projection coverage of bumps on the hull.

And on the X-Wing Novels.... I must correct you. Research will show that the Comics were released first, followed by the novels, then the games. The books specifically started hitting shelves in 96, while the first game was not until 98. Therefore, your argument about the validity of content from the novels is invalid. 8) Now on the other hand, you MIGHT be able to debate it through the comic book origins.... but I think the novels are pretty well entrenched in canon no matter what you do because that series covers such a MASSIVE portion of EU canon and is SO widely accepted. (In short, you can try, but the Rogues and Wraiths aren't people I'd recommend tangling with. ;) )

In Lego Star Wars you have to blow up the domes with your torpedoes to destroy a Star Destroyer.

And I should really read the X-Wing novels at some point.

Lol, I don't think Lego Star Wars can be counted very much as canon.

It's completely non-canon, I think she just brought it up because it had to do with the domes.

That's pretty impressive, then, since X-Wing won the Origins Award for Best Game of 1993.  :P  For that matter, I feel special, since I played X-Wing in 1995, TIE Fighter in 1996 and X-Wing vs TIE Fighter in 1997.  :)  Also, the "The World of Star Wars Novels" teaser sampler in the back of some of the pre-NJO novels released after X-Wing 1-4 leads into the Rogue Squadron teaser with the text "Inspired by X-Wing, the bestselling computer game from LucasArts Entertainment Co., this exciting series chronicles the further adventures of the most feared and fearless fighting force in the galaxy. [etc]"  (The book I used to check that was Planet of Twilight.)

Perhaps you're thinking of the Collector Series, which was released in 1998.

I like your line about Lucas being a Disney freak.  :D  Otherwise, though, there's the problem that aside from Impstars and Executor, and as far as I can find, NO other SW ship (including the Acclamator and Venator classes) has a geodesic dome structure, nor any similar protuberance, as a shield generator.  The closest we find are the dishes on the Millennium Falcon, Corellian Corvettes, Dreadnaughts, and Radiant VII, which both look like and are typically referred to as sensor dishes.  We find no such dishes on Impstars.  (Of course, to be fair, we find no such dishes on Acclamators or Venators, either, and they must have sensors somewhere.)

Incidentally, while double-checking my statement about the Venator, I ran into an interesting comment in Ep 3 Incredible Cross-Sections.  It asserts that the class name was originally Imperator and was later changed to Imperial.  Since, AFAICT, that's the only source that deals with the early Impstars at all, I think we have to conclude that both are valid names.

Yes, you absolutely should.  (Especially with the name RogueLeader. :) )  IMO they're some of the best SW novels.  The Stackpole ones are just awesome; the Allston ones are hilarious, both because of dialogue and because they remind me of a roleplaying game with experienced players.  ("You want to try WHAT?!?")

^ This. :)

^^ Hmm.... I'll admit my initial research was quick and dirty, but everything I look up right down to the wookiee article says the game was released in 98. WAIT! I have it! You misunderstood! The game I was referring to was ROGUE SQUADRON, not X-Wing, X-Wing VS TIE Fighter, or XWA. I grant you, I've BARELY played any of X-Wing itself, though I do own a copy, I didn't find it till about the time I switched to a comp without Floppy, but I've never heard that the X-Wing novels are based off it. From my experience and research, the X-Wing Comics were released following Wedge and the Rogues. Then Novels were done off those comics, followed by the first Rogue Squadron Game in 98. I never thought about the X-Wing or X-Wing VS TIE Fighter games in my arguments. Though since I just dusted off my copy of XWA, I'll admit I had thought of that a little, but it was more background reference for me. I really lack knowledge on that game series overall. I just haven't played it enough. But I haven't found any reference to a correlation between it and the Novels online.....

Also, in an interesting twist, the dag blasted X-Wing Alliance game DOES call them Imperator Destroyers. Annoyed me to no end when I saw that crop up in game awhile ago, but I figured you'd get a kick out of picturing the look on my face when that scrolled up on my HUD. :D

You've played XWA all the way through, correct?  The original X-Wing is good, and I recommend playing it, but XWA and TIE Fighter (preferably the Collector's CD-ROM) are both vastly superior.  If you play through the original X-Wing, re-read the novels afterward, at least 1-4; some references in them will make more sense.  (I don't actually recall if the Kalidor Crescent shows up in XWA, but AFAIK it originates in the first game; it comes up in the books at least once, when Kell Tainer earns it.)  Corran Horn in particular is often mentioned to be doing things that originate in the X-Wing game (most of them are in XWA as well).  For example, adjusting shield power forward or aft, transferring power from lasers to shields, and redirecting power to engines, along with a couple of simulation scenarios and some heroic measures because it would be suicidal for some novice Y-Wings to attack a Lancer frigate.  I think they even have things in the book like flying .3km from a bunch of incoming ships in order to inspect them.  None of those show up in the other novels, IIRC.  (The closest reference I can think of outside the X-Wing series is in one of the Original Trilogy when Han tells Chewie to angle the main deflectors; BTW, wouldn't he have thought to do that already?)

My impression from briefly playing Rogue Squadron is that it's basically X-Wing Lite.  I couldn't really get into it--I kept wanting to adjust shields and transfer power in ways that don't exist.  (Ditto for Starfighter and Jedi Starfighter, although I actually made it through both of those games; I didn't make it far in Rogue Squadron.)

Anyway, while I can't speak about the fourth step of this for sure, evidence seems to point to X-Wing (the game) leading to X-Wing (the comics) leading to X-Wing (the novels) leading to Rogue Squadron (the game).  Thinking about that makes me wish there was a Wraith Squadron game, but I can't imagine an AI amusing enough to pull it off.  :)

You have no idea how gratified I am to be reminded that XWA calls them Imperators.  :D  I'm picturing you seeing that and going, "Oh, son of a..."  At least you saw it now instead of when we were all in an online game--I would've given you so much crap that we all would have gotten caught up in an argument, forgotten there were TIEs, and gotten killed.  ;D  (...and then we'd never hear the end of it from the Imp players.)

Man, we're so far afield of the original topic.  So let's get more afield!  (Hopefully a moderator doesn't wander in and lock the thread. ;) )  I don't know if you've ever played AD&D 2nd Edition, but if you read the Complete Fighter's Handbook, you'll note that there are some surprisingly amusing comments for a game reference book.  The Complete Ninja's Handbook has a few good lines too.  If you look at who wrote them, you'll see they were written by the same person--Aaron Allston.

Actually, I only played partway through XWA, then my comp crashed, and I shelved it until the conversation came up here. I've been totally addicted to it since the conversation started though, and can't hardly put it down. Last night's session was particularly interesting. My bro was watching season one of the original Dragon Ball for the first time while I was playing, so I'd be looking up in the middle of dogfighting and we'd both be busting up laughing at Roshi or Goku while I was firing at Dupes. lol

I guess it's only natural that some things would be pulled from the games for the books, considering at the time they were written, there was virtually no reference material on X-Wings or Starfighter Command outside of the game at that point. Still, things like adjusting shields fore or aft, redirecting power to lasers.... sort of widely accepted across the sci-fi genre as natural for advanced tech ships. As for some of those things not showing up in any novels outside the series, I'd say that's easy to explain. None of the novels outside the series focus very heavily on starfighters. Even novels with large space battles tend to focus on the Falcon, Luke, or Capital Ships. Take Truce At Bakura, for example. Large space battles in there, but not a lot of detail for what the Rogues are doing. The novel follows Luke, Han, Leia, and others. Sad though it is, our beloved T-65s just don't get the attention they deserve outside that series. They aren't integral enough to most of the stories to be given that level of detail, they're just given a couple quick scenes, the same as in ESB or ROTJ. They're there to accomplish a necessary action for the story. They aren't THE story. X-Wing focuses on the squadrons, so of course, it's logical for those novels to be the only ones that bring up that much detail on the fighters and how they operate.

BTW, your Han reference reminds me, if I recall, I forgot to comment in an earlier post. The Dish on top of the Falcon is supposed to be for Radio purposes, not sensors or shields. Shield generators on the falcon were, I think, in the Mandibles, and though I'm not sure where the sensors were, they were on the front of the ship and had a window to protect them. Courtship went into some detail on that.

See... for me, the reason I love Rogue Squadron so much is really just because it was the first game with X-Wings in it I could get my hands on. It got me a fighter, and that was enough. Of course, once I had that.... I naturally wanted the sequels, and for that style game, RS3 was great. Now that I've gotten a little more of a knack for the real thing, I'm absolutely in love with XWA. :) My word though a Wraith Squadron game would be awesome. I'd love to run the missions from Iron Fist and play pirate. Seriously, I am always looking at this model Squint on my shelf and contemplating copying a Hawk Bat paint job onto it. lol

Imperators.... yeah.... that was about the sum of my reaction. Best part was just coming in on top of me, and I hit the target select, got the thing oriented above me, and saw the tagline. It was a very annoying moment. lol Luckily, I actually survived that mission so the danged thing didn't get the best of me. ;) You're right though, if that came up in online play, we'd have been arguing about it and gotten vaped. Would have made for epic forum lore though. XD

Mods? Where? ;D We're aren't THAT far off topic though.... Oh, and nope, never played AD&D.

Dupes make me laugh anyway.  :D

I'd be very interested to know your source for that.  I can't seem to find my copy of the ROTJ novelization, but everything from Han Solo at Star's End to Heir to the Empire to both old and new Essential Guides to Vehicles and Vessels calls it a sensor dish.  Incredible Cross-Sections concurs, but also points out passive sensor arrays near the front of the mandibles.  Shield generators are slightly further back in the mandibles, as you said.

Anyway, my point about bringing up the dish is that, when we see a dish that looks like a modern-day dish used for sensors, communications, etc, we assume it's used for sensors, communications, etc.  So, when we see what looks like the radome that covers a modern-day dish used for sensors, communications, etc., it's probably a radome that covers a dish used for sensors, communications, etc., especially when there are no other candidates for that role.  (To be fair, there is what looks like another array between them; on the other hand, real-world warships have multiple arrays as well.)

I don't recommend the intentionally damaged-looking paint job.  :)  I seem to remember a spider-web one that sounded fun, though.

EVERYBODY should play D&D!  I like second edition best, but that's because I'm old school (or just old, your choice).  I guess any table-top RPG would suffice, really.  What matters is when you've been playing with a group for a few months, and you get into a tight situation, and get to see what sort of weird crap you'll all come up with.

Well, considering that there are three separate theories for the domes' purpose and and evidence for each, I say we split the difference and go with wookieepedia's explanation that they are both sensors and shield generators.

I could go for Kev's solution. It's as fair an answer as anything else, really, and it somewhat makes sense.

On the Dish though.... I must say drat. I hate running into conflicting canon like that. lol Though I could be completely wrong, and my copy of Courtship is at home so I can't check for certain, but I could swear I recall the passage describing the crash into the frigate as saying it was a radio dish, not something for sensors, and all the other reference to sensor damage in that book talks about the window on the mandibles. I have the New Essential Guide though, and since you mentioned it, I think I remember it being as you say (also at home).


Well, at least no matter what, we can all concur that TIEs suck. XD

I liked flying the Interceptor in Rogue Squadron...

But yes, overall they suck.  Give me wishbone anyday.

Well, the Squint is not bad. I like the Squint and the Trip better than any other Imp craft, I can kinda respect them both. The Squint for me is somewhat like a more challenging version of the A-Wing to fly. I prefer the A, but the Squint has all the Imp targeting comps and such which make it more of a challenge, and it's even less shielded. The Trip..... well that's just the Imps learning too late what a real starfighter is. One deadly sonuvasith.

...not sure if serious or sarcastic...

Given the choice, I'd take a wishbone over a dupe.  On the other hand, I might take floating into a dogfight equipped only with a spacesuit and a blaster pistol over either of them.  :P  Of course, my love for the Headhunter is a matter of record, so you should probably take my opinion (and any assertions of my sanity) with a grain of salt.

Actually, do Y-Wings ever actually accomplish anything in any of the movies?  They failed at Yavin, didn't appear in ESB, and weren't apparently involved in any of the most critical actions at Endor.  (Then again, neither were B-Wings.)  They don't fare a whole lot better in EU materials either.  In terms of effectiveness, the Rebel Alliance might as well scrap all of their Y-Wings and replace them with hot-rodded Corellian light freighters.  :)

I really want them to make another X-Wing-style game that includes all of the G-canon fighters to date.  We've had some prequel ships show up in console games (I recall Naboo N-1s, Delta-7 Aethersprites, and Vulture droids), but none of the new fighters seen in ROTS, and no prequel ships at all in a more "serious" game.  Some of the older X-Wing-series games invented ships to add variety, but you wouldn't even need to--use an ARC-170 instead of an R-41 Starchaser and V-Wings instead of T-Wings.  You could even keep the invented ships (and other C-canon ships) and have just fantastic variety.

I also wish that at least XWA had put in TIE shuttles and TIE boarding craft.  I can see an argument not to do it in the original X-Wing (kind of hard to differentiate one twin-hulled TIE from another when you only have a handful of polygons and no textures), but by XWA they would've been easy to model and a nice touch of movie-canon variety.  (Actually, the TIE boarding craft might've ended up on the cutting room floor--I don't recall if you see any in Devastator's hangar bay.  It's supposed to be what Vader and the 501st board Tantive IV with.)

Likelihood of them making a game like I want?  Only marginally better than my chances of being elected president this year.  :(

None of fighters really accomplished anything in ANH.  It was more Luke and the Force than the X-Wing.  I always though Y-Wings were pretty cool, with X-wings as my second fave.

In the Y-Wing's defense, it really isn't shown with it's full capabilities in the films. I'd say the BEST place I've seen a wishbone displayed to it's full potential is actually in Renegade Squadron. You also have to remember that the topside Turret can be swapped for Ion Cannons, which is a nice advantage for some missions. They pack a massive payload compared with the X-Wing, and they can also take one HELL of a beating.

That Tantive IV boarding bit... interesting. I always thought they tractored her into the hangar. I know they can't land something that large in there, but there is a sort of grasping arm crane thing there, and the opening in the bottom of the Destroyer is large enough, or it least it looked like it to me. I'd cite the instance in RSII where they did the same thing, but I know using a game for my source would come back to bite me with Vyk. lol

Oh, and to kinda score back on you for the beating you've been giving my knowledge in this thread.... ;) I must point out that the Y-Wing WAS shown in ESB! It had a VERY brief appearance at the end of the movie, just before the credits, there was a couple of them flying patrol for the Rebel Fleet.

I think of the Y-Wing as the Star Wars equivalent of an A-10 Thunderbolt;  an older craft that can deliver a high payload and take serious beatings.

They definitely did pull her into the hangar.  I'll have to see if I can find the info about the TIE boarding craft and how it was actually used.  I feel like the sequence of events was:

• Tantive IV is disabled through some combination of well-aimed shots, luck, and sheer firepower
• Vader and the 501st use a TIE boarding craft to fly over to the starboard docking bay, blast through the hatch, and engage in a one-sided firefight with Tantive IV's crew
• The thoroughly pacified Tantive IV is pulled into Devastator's hangar
  

Wookiepedia agrees with my recollection about that sequence of events, and refers to the novelization, so I'll try to remember to check that.  (Bearing in mind that my Aeon is waiting for me at home and I expect I'm going to be fully occupied this evening. :) )

Son of a...   :D  I forgot all about that scene.  I'd gone through the movie in my head and got up to rescuing Luke from the underside of Cloud City and completely forgot about the actual end of the movie.  Whoops!

One thing that I find interesting about the Y-Wing is how different its original design (in-universe) was from its appearance as the Rebel Alliance used it and as we know it from the Original Trilogy.  As was first shown in Incredible Cross-Sections and later depicted in Clone Wars (I think Anakin even flew one at one point), the Y-Wing originally was all covered up in a nice aerodynamic skin.  Over time, as they got more and more jury-rigged, the Alliance techs started just leaving most of the body panels off, and only the area around the cockpit retains its original appearance.  Add a fully-intact Y-Wing to the list of things I want to see in a new X-Wing game.  :)

As far as I know, the Y-Wing is the only Clone Wars-era fighter to see wide use during the Rebellion era.  That also gives you some sense of both its strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously, it's durable and versatile, so there's good motivation to keep it around.  The V-Wing and Actis seem to be long gone, presumably because they seem to be relatively high-strung one-trick ponies.  On the other hand, the Y-Wing is old.  Even if (as can be argued) the Star Wars universe is in a state of technological stagnation, 25-year-old fighters that have been deprecated by the Empire are probably not going to be in great states of repair.

Another factor could also be that it's a jack of all trades but a master of none, while TIEs and X- and A-Wings seem heavily geared toward dogfighting--it's just not designed for the Rebellion-era paradigm.  That seems particularly plausible if, as seems to be the case, it was unusual in having its own hyperdrive when it was built, while that's a common feature of Alliance craft during the Rebellion.  During the Clone Wars, just having something that could jump in with no other support, engage in combat in a variety of roles, and jump back out would be notable.  By the time of the Rebellion, it either needs to be able to maneuver like a pointer or slim, or soak up and deal out damage like a cross, and it doesn't quite manage either of those.

That brings me to another idea for a topic of discussion: which prequel-era fighters have built-in hyperdrives?

He flew a BTL-B with Shadow Squadron during the destruction of Malevolence's ion cannon and maybe briefly on another occasion or two.

It would have also made more sense for the Empire to also utilize two interdictor class ships to keep the transports from even being able to hit hyperspace.

Then again I don't think Lucas had thought about that type of ship (or even if he even came up with the idea himself ever) for the movie. But Interdictor ships are amazing, especially how Thrawn used them to not only prevent escape but also to bring in backup exactly where he wanted it. (he's put the edge of the field right where he wanted his ships to come out at, that way it eliminates all guesswork and the capital ships can come out of Hyperspace right on top of a planet if need be.

Good point. Though the Interdictors weren't, as I recall, in wide service at that time.... you'd think if ANYONE could get their hands on one, it would be Vader. Then again, you'd also wonder why the Empire didn't put some Grav Projectors into the Executor Class.

Because it wasn't in the script?

Wait, are you suggesting that the whole thing was scripted? Preposterous!

I'm proposing that the whole thing was a movie, and that reality as we know it is just a simulation run on a computer by a vastly advanced civilization (No, not the Matrix).  How else can you explain the phenomenon that particles don't have a state while not being observed?

/mindblown

For in-universe chronology, the first Interdictor was built two years before the battle of Yavin, but there wasn't much demand for them outside of Vice Admiral Thrawn's fleet until the Rebels escaped Hoth when they could have been stopped by an Interdictor (as you suggested).  That drove up demand, but the ships are apparently difficult to produce--by Endor there were still only a handful, and mostly in the Outer Rim with Thrawn.

For real-world chronology, I believe Zahn came up with the idea of the Interdictor, which I think you hinted at.  One of the interesting things about Zahn to me is how convincingly he could write a genius like Thrawn.  I'm of the opinion that it's impossible for an author to convincingly write a character vastly smarter than the author is--you can make him figure out things that you wouldn't be able to figure out, but you can't keep him from missing things you'd miss and you can't make him have an idea you couldn't have.  The fact that Zahn does write Thrawn very convincingly makes me think Zahn himself is quite intelligent.  (Stories I've heard from people who have talked with him back that up.)

Very possible.  I'm sure he is very intelligent, but I wouldn't also put it past him to have other people helping him out with ideas and such. I know in my writing that I do, I have a handful of people helping me out with various scenarios in my stories for ideas. To even turn up the creativity, and help me have more fun writing, I also don't let them know they are working on the same stories, and none of them know all of the details about the stories (except one person). I've found that this helps get deeper character development with various groups and other characters because I more or less base their thought processes on some of the people helping me out. He may do something similar with group-think.