Practice Practice Practice

[ShadowKatt]

I admit that there's not a lot of discussion value here, I just wanted to share experience. Last night, we had some household guests who are usually around regularly come over because they were bored, so we ended up breaking out the lightsabers. This isn't the first time, actually it's the second, and it's been a few months since the last time we did. The first time I did this I remember getting beat up pretty bad. I walked away with a few bruises and a nice gash across my hand.

Well, since then, I've gotten a couple more lightsabers, and I've been practicing regularly the first six forms (Shii-cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Djem-so/Shien, and Niman). I've been training with velocities(lightsaber kata that start slow and increasingly get faster until they're instinct) and just simple focus and exercise training. So last night was the first chance I had to put all that wasted time into practice.

While we weren't keeping score, we used a point system, A touch anywhere on the body is a point and a hit. Right off the bat, I started with Makashi and ended up cracking someone right across the jaw and making him do a double take with a seires of expletives, and making me take a second look at myself. Once he was recovered(He's fine, by the way), I switched to Soresu, somethimg less aggressive, and he used a lightsaber and a makeshift shield(Similar to the expanded lightsaber forms). I remained with a single saber and was able to block, parry, or lock nearly every strike, swing, or thrust that was thrown at me. By the end of the night, even though we weren't keeping score, we all agreed that roughly speaking, I came out on top by about 4 or 5 hits to every one the two of them got on me.

I was impressed, to say the least. I didn't think that any practice outside of sparring was really of any use, since velocities hardly every go through uninterupted and solo training can't teach you adapability. But to my suprise, it DOES teach adaptability, as well as focus, confidence, and determination. Solo practice should never be overlooked, it really is the basis of everything else.

[thejedimasternick]

Very nice experience. I think a lot of people need to consider this sort of thing. It is one thing of course going out there and swinging a saber around, but it is another when you actually have to think of when and how to swing, hah. On top of this note to everyone that is reading and perhaps maybe considering practicing some more, always think about what you have just done. Well, not really saying in the whole "OMG What did I just do!!!" sense, but the way you moved and perhaps certain aspects of your style that worked or didnt work. In battle, ShadowKatt over here maybe worked on different forms and during battle, perhaps finding better ways of attacking and defending during the battle itself. This is a great example of adapatability in a fight. Which also means leaving yourself open to ideas and room for improvement during sparring and even during training. I know this whole form thing can be really hard to understand at sometimes mostly due to the fact that there isnt much source material out there, well, at least from the movies and books. The fans have truly taken the saber up on this one and made it into something pretty great. But, the forms should get your mind going on ways to attack, defend, move, and essentially, think. But, all in all, I think this is a good story for people to think about, as well as a note of people who dont get to spar too much. Even though you may be alone, dont think it. Think of how you swing or move and visualize yourself moving and how you would move after, and so on. Also think about how your enemy would move and react to you, causing you to move a certain way. And like he said, practice practice practice.

[JdiKnhtJMH]

I learned a lot from solo practice and velocities as well. If nothing else they keep you in shape, but one of the best effects is the confidence it can give you, which does go a long way in a battle. I've improved a lot just by practicing solo as often as I can.

[SJJedi]

Practice is invaluable, but it's also tempered well by knowledge.  At our local Con, I sparred with a fellow who's been doing kendo for YEARS, and not only did he kick my @$$ but he was able to break it down for me, and explain all of the little things I was doing wrong that allowed him to kick my @$$.  Sometimes it's little things you don't even consider or realize that you're doing, going into a duel, but...I guess what I'm getting at is that knowledge alone or practice alone won't carry you single-handedly.  It's all going to come down to a balance of experience and form, a balance of practice and knowledge.

[ThreadJack]

I agree SJ. Saber combat is just like anything else, it takes practice as well as knowledge. Knowing how to do something does not always mean you can do it or are good at it. I.e., I know how to throw a curveball, but I can't actually do it.

[Novastar]

Oooo... this is a great thread--LOTS of great comments, by JediKnightJMH, SJJedi, ShadowKatt, Darth Raze and... everyone!

I will certainly affirm and agree:

* NEVER underestimate "shadow boxing", i.e. practicing on your own -- it's important!!
* NEVER underestimate "brainwork", i.e. THINKING things through, imagining the techniques being performed and so forth... very important.
* CERTAINLY practice, share, learn and work with others... it's pretty bloody important.

Now, really... if you're goal is something like: "I wanna be good at saber sparring"... nothing gets you prepared for that + understanding it better than... actually sparring someone.  Actually you should spar MANY "someones"!  If at all possible, try to spar people whom you KNOW to be better than you, faster than you, taller than you, stronger than you...

Why.  Well what do you learn if you easily beat someone?  Little.  You gain practice, really.  What do you learn if you're a fairly even match?  A LOT!  Very very good challenge for you if you're evenly matched.  And... what do you learn if you spar/fence/fight someone who is WAAAAY better than you?  Still quite a bit, and in a very different way: you will see the minute errors (or LARGE errors!) in your technique, because they will constantly be exploited by the better fencer/fighter.

But yes... please DO NOT underestimate practicing on your own!  Your body has to commit to MUSCLE MEMORY of many, many, many actions--both attack & defense... and from there, you're hoping (praying? lol) to act on instinct.

[ThreadJack]

I can attest to that Nova. When I joined the wrestling team in high school, I spent a lot of time "shadow drilling," as they call it(wrestling the invisible man basically). Did I get better from it? You bet.

When I wasn't doing that, I was often practicing with our heavyweight, who had about 1ft, and two weight classes on me, officially(Probably more). Again did I get better? Yes I did.

Even when I was practicing with someone the same size or smaller than me, they had been wrestling for years, whereas I was the new guy. They were better than me, and I got better for it.

[Novastar]

Amen to that, Raze!!    I'll say it again... THIS thread is full of some *GOOD* stuff.  To everyone, you listen, whoever is reading!!  heheh

[ShadowKatt]

Unfortunately, the guy that I played around with the other day now won't come back to play with me no more So I'm stuck practicing by myself again. Now that I know it will improve things, I don't feel like it's wasted effort, but it's just not as fun as having someone there to duel.

[ThreadJack]

Amen to that, Raze!!    I'll say it again... THIS thread is full of some *GOOD* stuff.  To everyone, you listen, whoever is reading!!  heheh

I'm amazed that I impressed someone with your credentials.

Unfortunately, the guy that I played around with the other day now won't come back to play with me no more So I'm stuck practicing by myself again. Now that I know it will improve things, I don't feel like it's wasted effort, but it's just not as fun as having someone there to duel.

Not only is it not as fun, it's not as good. Like Nova and I said before, practicing by yourself is a great way to perfect a technique and commit movements to muscle memory, however it's no substitute for practicing with a partner. That's the only way you're going to develop things like reaction time and coordination(aim if sparing).

Again, to go back to my JV Wrestling days, I learned this the hard way. In wrestling we have a take down called a shot. It's the most efficient way to take your opponent down to the mat and gain the advantage. After practicing this move(and a few others) for my first few weeks both by myself and with a partner, it came time for my first match. As you can imagine I was excited, and a bit embarrassed by the spandex(not a particularly pretty sight! lol.) Long story short, I took my shot, my opponent sprawled(a reaction I had not yet encountered) and reversed my takedown. 1,2,3 it's over. It happened so fast...

My point is, I had never faced an opponent in a real match, at real match pace, who had reacted to my move the way he did. I got schooled, but I did learn from it and was prepared next time. As important as "shadow drilling" is, you won't learn certain things from it.

Wow. I never thought I could apply wrestling experiences to saber combat. Always learning are we....

[ShadowKatt]

I wonder if there are any saber dueling competitions. Anyone ever heard about something like that? A problem I had the last time I was dueling with someone was holding back. I've practiced a lot of velocities, strike combos of anywhere from 3-7 swings. However, I never got to use a single one of them, because the blows are fast, and they're hard, and the point of dueling, SPARRING, is to better yourself and enjoy it. I'm not sure how to really apply what I've done in practice regarding those velocities without injuring someone.

[Novastar]

Funny that you mention it, Shadow, as... I'm hoping to (continue!) working on a sort of "sparring system" that will be a subset of this entire NCSCS project Caine and I have been working on.  This sparring system has actually been in the works for quite some time--I've been thinking about it ever since around 2009 or so...

Anyhow, I really haven't told anyone about it at this point... but Ultra now knows about it (as of maybe a week or two ago), and since you guys brought that kind of subject up, the point of my system will be to:

* Promote safety, fun, respect
* Standardize certain "gear specs"... including protective gear, but also specifying some details about hilts, blades, etc.
* Allow for unique & interesting setups for dueling (such as 2 vs. 1 "power duel", 2 on 2, etc.)
* Standardize a scoring system, but also allow for people to make "uniquely scored" matches, such as... IDK... 2 points for this target but 0 for that one... or even have "1 shot, 1 kill" matches...
* Possibly promote some kind of "online record keeping" where wins & losses can be kept track of... and of course, in the beginning it would be more "for fun", since it would (initially) be rare for people all over the nation to "compete together".  But who knows?  Maybe someday... something bigger could be arranged.  Hard to say.

More to come of all that later, though.    I will at least say... I'm trying to keep things SIMPLE... yet fun & interesting... *AND* also fair + "covering all bases".  We don't want a system that is rife with holes where people could abuse it.  Such as leaving "blade type" and "blade length" open-ended... someone would walk in with a 60" blade and say "It ain't in the RULES, so too bad, I get to spar!!"... ya feel me?    lol

Last thing I will say is... I don't condone ANY kind of sparring unless people understand the RISKS, take precautions to protect themselves, and ultimately accept responsibility for their own actions... and their own injuries!  Blaming others on where or how you get hit would be silly: it's SPARRING.  It ain't sewing, lol.

Don't want to get hit in the eye?  Here's a tip--don't say "hey, no head shots"... instead, REQUIRE FACEMASKS/HELMS.  The end.

Put it this way... until you AND your opponent... are *SOOOOOO* accurate that you can hit targets the size of a golf ball on cue/demand... and do so with pretty darn extreme accuracy... ...

...HOW CAN YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO SIMPLY "AVOID HITTING THE HEAD"?!?  You cannot.

Further... most of the time, when I hit a target I didn't intend to hit... my opponent sort of accidentally found a way to "ride" or "glide" my weapon into said target area via THEIR weapon... because of their attempted PARRY.  Confusing the way I wrote it, I know... but those who have sparred know PRECISELY of what I speak.

[ShadowKatt]

Actually, the last time I dueled someone we basicly used the "One hit, one kill" scoring system. The only thing that didn't count as a hit was a hand, and we pretty well avoided the head. But I tend to agree with you, protection would be a good idea if you have it available.

And, yeah, about the whole "Parry" thing, I definitely know what you're talking about. We tended to use a lot of blade-locks when we were sparring, and I kept trying to parry them away from me to exploit an opening. Never quite worked the way I wanted to, and I never learned how.

[robgomm]

Hey guys, i'm new here and this is a cool thread! Lots of stuff to think about. Certainly the thing i've gained from this thread is definately wear headgear!

[thejedimasternick]

Headgear is great. So is any other sort of protective equipment. Depend and how and who you duel, though.

About the whole scoring system thing. I have been working on a saber tournament as well. I have been looking at different sword fighting systems and competition rules and trying to make something that you would be able to morph into lightsaber fighting. It is going pretty well so far. I have worked on different zones and target areas, as well as the whole point thing for certain targets. I have also tried to work in different classes, so to speak. The higher the class, the more/less points for certain targets, as well as openning up targets as you progress in class. Your arm may be a target in one class, but may differ between forearm, bicep, wrist, and hand in another. Also trying to have coaches to actually monitor the duel to count the points. Then there is the "melee" free for all duel that we do which is pretty much one shot, one kill type of thing for everyone with a saber. That has worked pretty well in the past as well. But, again, still trying to work through the whole trial and error of it all and will hopefully get something good and efficient soon.