The two worst Jedi Knights in the History of Star Wars

[Ninja-Jedi]

the comments i made made are only going by my observations in the movies, not novels, games, expanded universe or clonewars animated series. When i stated that Palpatine may be a tad better in the force i actually meant using it in combat and from what i witnessed in the fight scene with yoda vs sidious was when they were lightsaber dueling it seemed sidious was having trouble tracking yoda's movements.  When they started displaying force powers yes Yoda seemed more knowledable and even just as powerful by absorbing his lightning but when Sidious started hurling flying platforms Yoda seemed to fall a step behind when  he stops catching or  deflecting them he starts trying to dodge them, some by narrow margin. Which maybe that means in terms of power Yoda was stronger but he didnt seem to have the endurance of Sidious.

When  i made the arrogance statement i was quoting Yoda from the movie again when Obi-Wan stated Anakins abilities made him arrogant, and Yoda states a problem more and more with the Jedi even the older more experienced ones "TO SURE OF THEMSELVES"    that was type of arrogance i was referring to not that they have arrogant personality or views just that they are too sure of themselves.  But we all know we can argue these points forever and not get anywhere especially with all the contradictions in the star wars universe

[Solinus]

... i think this goes back to Jedi also being arrogant and too sure of themselves as Yoda stated in one of the movies ...

This quote is what you are referring to:

Mace Windu: The boy has exceptional skills.
Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well arrogant.
Yoda: Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

This is from a scene in Episode 2: Attack of the Clones. I literally just finished watching it 20 minutes ago. Your statement that I quoted at the time seems like a blanket statement covering Jedi as a whole. To me, personally, it indicates that you believe that ALL Jedi appear to be arrogant. I could be wrong with my interpretation, and if so, please correct me.

Yoda explains that he sees that this arrogance is starting to surface in many of the Jedi. Yes. But not all Jedi are this way. Also take into consideration the time period they are in. More and more star systems are leaving the Republic and joining the Separatists. The Jedi Order is coming less and less trusted by the Republic. The threat of war is looming on the horizon with the Droid armies being created.

[ed_ification]

This quote is what you are referring to:

Mace Windu: The boy has exceptional skills.
Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well arrogant.
Yoda: Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

This is from a scene in Episode 2: Attack of the Clones. I literally just finished watching it 20 minutes ago. Your statement that I quoted at the time seems like a blanket statement covering Jedi as a whole. To me, personally, it indicates that you believe that ALL Jedi appear to be arrogant. I could be wrong with my interpretation, and if so, please correct me.

Yoda explains that he sees that this arrogance is starting to surface in many of the Jedi. Yes. But not all Jedi are this way. Also take into consideration the time period they are in. More and more star systems are leaving the Republic and joining the Separatists. The Jedi Order is coming less and less trusted by the Republic. The threat of war is looming on the horizon with the Droid armies being created.

I would think that said quote could also be due to there not having been a significant challenge to the Jedi Order as a whole in years...  even the "unknown" Sith who killed Qui-Gon.  There's this cloud of the Dark Side, but not a personified challenge to the Order itself.  The Jedi personify the will of the Senate and can (not to say that they do, but can) take over many situations.  If there's not someone challenging your views/opinions of yourself, you tend to fall into that trap of believing in your own legend...

We see arrogance in Anakin earlier in AotC:  "Jedi Business.  Go back to your drinks."  Not "this person has attempted assassination on the Senator of the Sovereign System of Naboo and is under arrest"... just "Jedi Business."  That's pretty arrogant, in a way - it basically says, "We're Jedi, and our involvement trumps local authority."

[Solinus]

Well, Anakin actually WAS arrogant. For 10 years, they built him up with this "Chosen One" prophecy. When we finally see him in AOTC, he's starting to get tired of everything. We also don't know what lies Palpatine had been feeding him as well. At one point in the movie, when Anakin went to speak with Palpatine in an attempt to get him to urge Amidala to leave and go to Naboo, Anakin mentions that the guidance he had received from Palpatine had helped him in many ways.

We all know Palpatine to be the ultimate agent of deception. He set events in motion YEARS before they finally unfolded. His corruption of Anakin started almost immediately and directly contributed to his arrogance. Several times in AOTC Anakin mentioned that he was better than Obi-Wan. Better than Yoda. He sometimes said it in anger, and sometimes in jest. That arrogance was still there.

I don't mean to excuse his arrogance at all. But... would he still have been so arrogant had Palpatine not intervened? Also, with those 10 years of build up, how many times had he been told "Oh you're the Chosen One" or "You're going to save us all" or "You're the most gifted I have seen ever"?? If he was so gifted and talented, why was he still a Padawan in AOTC and not already a Jedi Knight?

[Master Rel]

Yes...this...we agree with this   

[Solinus]

I'd like to add another point to this.

With Anakin having been the Chosen One, I felt like they built him up with all this hype. They filled his head with all of this talk of prophecy and bringing balance to the Force. Yet they didn't let him do squat. Why not? It's like they were afraid to let him do anything. All of this talk about letting the will of the Force guide them, and they forced Anakin down a path that they themselves chose for him, not the Force.

In my opinion, I think that it would have been better told had we seen Anakin as a Jedi Knight in AOTC already. Leading Jedi and Republic troopers into battle against the Seperatists, all of the while having his mind twisted and warped by the lies and deceit fed to him by Palpatine. Actually have the Jedi Council show him and grant him the respect he deserved just BEING the Chosen One. It would have made his turn, his fall, and his betrayal that much MORE dramatic.

I dunno... sounded better in my head. Haha!!

[BenPass]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: While I really like Obi-Wan and I can't stand Anakin, the fact remains that Obi-Wan lost sight of who or what chose Anakin. My reason for stating this is that on Mustafar, he said, "You were The Chosen One".

If the Force chose him, than a fall would not end that choice. If Obi-Wan chose him, then a fall could and likely would end the choice. We can see through the OT that the Force did indeed choose Anakin to bring balance to the Force by killing Palpy. Obi-Wan, I think, lost sight of who did the choosing and instead thought that by defying Yoda, obeying Qui-gon, and training Anakin, that he was the one choosing and being responsible for Anakin's destiny.

If that is the case, then Obi-Wan, in some ways, gave an example of arrogance and self-importance for Anakin to follow.

Anyway, all that said, this topic is about these being the worst Jedi. I liked Kit Fisto, but really, when you look at people like Qui-gon being killed off by one Sith, these Jedi seemed to die über fast.

[Master Rel]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment:

(clipped)

If that is the case, then Obi-Wan, in some ways, gave an example of arrogance and self-importance for Anakin to follow.

I see his comment and emotion being something much closer to a father and son relationship and not a teacher and student or master and apprentice...I saw no arrogance or self importance, I saw genuine grief and gut wrenching realization that his closest friend and by-proxy son had become a monster, betraying not only the Jedi order but all that binds a decent culture.

Anguish and pain...no arrogance or other related IMO.

Agreed that Anakin was written as a bit a of a spoiled pampered brat that needed a serious time out, a roshambo (every morning for a year), and isolation on Dagobah for 4-5yrs with Yoda...yeah, all of that...

[Ninja-Jedi]

In the end i just felt really sad for Obi-Wan he seemed to be very humble at heart and very kind hearted in nature, pride may be a form of arrogance i think he was very proud of anakin and may have affected his judgement even when Mace stated he didnt trust anakin at one point, Obi-wan always tried to defend and encourage Anakin, to me it was Obi-Wan who really embodied what it means to be a Jedi he was completely selfless. He seemed to be similar to Anakin in the fact that his emotions sometimes clouded his judgement. With Anakin it was his love for Padme that clouded his judgment and with Obi-Wan it was his love for Anakin i think it was part of their youth,  i think he loved Anakin like a son or brother and wasnt able to see the past Anakins arrogance and just couldnt fathom that Anakin would go down a dark path, i think a part of him died when Anakin turned

[Ultra]

I just wanted to drop in and say that this conversation is epic and I loved reading it. 

[Solinus]

I just wanted to drop in and say that this conversation is epic and I loved reading it. 

Thanks Ultra! Got a quick second to give us YOUR take???

[Ultra]

My take kinda sucks compared to everyone else's.  I thought I knew alot of Star Wars lore, but yall humbled me.

I always thought that Palpy's thick shroud of the dark side slowed the minds of his enemies, allowing his to really catch them off guard, kinda the same way Dooku's darkness slowed Master Coleman Trebor and allowed him to get gunned down like a Padawan.

It doesn't sound near as cool as yall's explanations.

[Solinus]

My take kinda sucks compared to everyone else's.  I thought I knew alot of Star Wars lore, but yall humbled me.

I always thought that Palpy's thick shroud of the dark side slowed the minds of his enemies, allowing his to really catch them off guard, kinda the same way Dooku's darkness slowed Master Coleman Trebor and allowed him to get gunned down like a Padawan.

It doesn't sound near as cool as yall's explanations.

Thank you for your input Ultra. It doesn't matter how much or how little someone knows about the lore. That's what's great about this community here that y'all created! Everyone's input is welcome and valued!

[Master Rel]

I agree, the shroud is as valid as any...makes some sense to me 

All I asked for was that the film reflect something other than the writer said so...a but of slow motion or a blur of motion, something.

[Big Andy]

Honestly I would have taken an entirely different approach with this than uncle George did. I would have had about 5 more jedi there instead of mace, and I would have left him out of it completely. The emperor would have been moving way fast and I would've used the same type of shot that they use in smallville when Clark is bullet dodging. I would have saved Mace's death for after anakin was in the Vader suit, I would have had Mace attack in the scene where Vader and the emperor are looking out the widow at the death star's construction and had an epic fight between Vader and mace where Vader reveals to mace right before killing him that he is in fact anakin skywalker.