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Author Topic: On approaching the "multiple opponents" concept... (by Nova)  (Read 34402 times)
Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 06:34:23 PM »

I like you!

I made my wife read this, she thought it was fantastic.

Thanks for tips.

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‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Master BStone
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 07:01:51 PM »

dealing with multiple opponents is generally a lost cause, keeping in mind all the points Nova stated earlier, I think the best hope for survival is manipulating psychology through the opponents emotional state. if the initial ambush fails, as long as your CARDIO is waaaaay better than your opponent(s) stamina, every moment the single combatant can prolong the fight with convincing skill erodes the confidence of the attackers, especially if you can manage to eliminate one of the them. 
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Novastar
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 09:49:44 PM »

On another note--to address the awesome (yet totally unrealistic--duh) Zorro movies... or ANY fight movies for that matter--notice how:

* The attackers all "wait" for Zorro...
* The attackers all approach from a very tight angle, mostly in front of Zorro...
* The attackers make NO moves to surround Zorro...
* The attackers all... uh... pretty much thrust right into the same central line... en masse... all at the same time, heheh (when attacking "as a group") -- which essentially turns them into "one attacker"

But yeah, the "coolness factor" of 10 dudes all thrusting and Zorro parrying them all + trapping them all and then escaping/retreating after bonking a few in the ballz or onz da headz... yah, it's fun times for a movie!  Fun choreo.  Smiley

All it would take is for even *ONE* of those fools to feint... or to attack an entirely DIFFERENT line/target... and poor Zorro would be wearing that black shroud permanently... Smiley

Heheheh... but really, don't let me take the *FUN* out of fight choreo!!  After all... in my opinion... THAT is what is most exciting and fun about martial ARTS... it's why "ART" is part of the term.  And hey... maybe BStone would agree with me... umm... I hate to tell you all this, but... a "realistic" fencing match is NOT all that exciting to watch (for the untrained eye).  It's not super "dramatic" (most of the time), and people get hit very very very VERY often!

Case and point, I'm just going to randomly search y-tube for some saber fencing footy:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKUEZIrDVT8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKUEZIrDVT8</a>


A few quick points:

* You may or may not understand WHAT is going on... so... don't be too quick to judge...
* You might agree with me that it's... uh... fairly "boring" to watch--although I don't mean that as a saber fencer... I mean that as pretending to be an "average joe blow sword movie enthusiast with little/no MA background"
* Pay close attention to the sheer distance/measure being used.  Some attacks fall short by millimeters... and it AIN'T because the attacker WANTED to fall short in many cases!  The defender "set the measure" juuuuuuuussstt right... Smiley
* There ARE indeed some conventional rules, but... look... one way you'd understand for ~ALL~ types of combat is simple: IT'S ABOUT HIT + DON'T BE HIT!!  The End.  Any action where a fighter hits another and is in turn NOT hit = perfection.  In my humble opinion, lol.  (actually that's just logic)

Enjoy!
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2011, 12:36:27 AM »

On another note--to address the awesome (yet totally unrealistic--duh) Zorro movies... or ANY fight movies for that matter--notice how:

* The attackers all "wait" for Zorro...
* The attackers all approach from a very tight angle, mostly in front of Zorro...
* The attackers make NO moves to surround Zorro...
* The attackers all... uh... pretty much thrust right into the same central line... en masse... all at the same time, heheh (when attacking "as a group") -- which essentially turns them into "one attacker"



Ahhh, the Mooks and their Chivalry. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MookChivalry
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2011, 12:40:27 AM »

The video was great, my best friend fences; but he's in WA so I don't get to see him fence.
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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Master BStone
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 03:28:08 AM »

Props fer the  Sabre post Master Nova. I agree. Modern fencing is NOT at all exciting to the untrained eye. I've known a few folks seemed to enjoy it, but its a rarity. That being said, I've been known to comb youtube for world cup and international competition vids because I love the subtlety and timing, and its important to stay current. 
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2011, 03:40:51 AM »

My favorite is when they do an overhead strike, and whip the foil so it bends and just taps their opponents' head.

Snap! With a quickness.
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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2011, 03:59:08 AM »

Yeah. and by the way Nova, the touch at 6:02 is siiiiick.
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Master Nero Attoru
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2011, 12:11:38 PM »

My favorite is when they do an overhead strike, and whip the foil so it bends and just taps their opponents' head.

Snap! With a quickness.

Flicking!  There's a fun move.  Very niche though, especially depending on the director.  It was HUGE when it first was discovered, but then they changed the timing years ago and you saw use of it drop dramatically (I assume this was intentional).

Anyway, back on topic.  Novastar makes a great point that is often forgotten (even among fencers):  the highest levels of fencing are... I hate to say it... boring to the average person.  It's a funny dynamic because you learn the basics starting out, get more advanced and learn some fancy stuff, then once you get to Olympic level you're back to basics.  You don't see tricks like jumping and flicking and dodging too much in international tournaments, just great timing and perfect technique.  Cut out all the bs, and keep it simple. 

Of course this is basically the OPPOSITE of what you want in stage combat and whatnot - if your audience is bored then you've failed lol.  This is why fancy moves and flourishes and fighting one on thirty is done, you move away from practical and towards flashy.  This is not a bad thing, unless you intend to try these tactics in a real fight - but then again, who gets into swordfights nowadays?  Apart from us Star Wars dorks Wink
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 08:24:22 PM »

I suppose the only other way I can think of to fight on the up and up when you're outnumbered would be a reach advantage. I picked up a four foot polycarb blade somewhere along the way that I can control the battle space a bit better with. Its still a thin proposition, but it gives me an outside chance and at least makes it probable that I'll take an attacker with me.
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Novastar
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2011, 06:07:21 AM »

Flicking!  There's a fun move.  Very niche though, especially depending on the director.  It was HUGE when it first was discovered, but then they changed the timing years ago and you saw use of it drop dramatically (I assume this was intentional).

Anyway, back on topic.  Novastar makes a great point that is often forgotten (even among fencers):  the highest levels of fencing are... I hate to say it... boring to the average person.  It's a funny dynamic because you learn the basics starting out, get more advanced and learn some fancy stuff, then once you get to Olympic level you're back to basics.  You don't see tricks like jumping and flicking and dodging too much in international tournaments, just great timing and perfect technique.  Cut out all the bs, and keep it simple. 

Of course this is basically the OPPOSITE of what you want in stage combat and whatnot - if your audience is bored then you've failed lol.  This is why fancy moves and flourishes and fighting one on thirty is done, you move away from practical and towards flashy.  This is not a bad thing, unless you intend to try these tactics in a real fight - but then again, who gets into swordfights nowadays?  Apart from us Star Wars dorks Wink
I could not have really said it better, Nero.  The ART of martial combat... is much different from the "actual" martial combat.  It would not be "art" if it also didn't have some inherent beauty and "visual interest" to some extent.  It's funny, too... for as long as I can remember... people get EVERYTHING regarding martial sciences *WRONG*... they:

* Confuse the sport of boxing with "the reality" of a streetfight
* Confuse staged/filmed combat martial arts with the sport of fencing
* Confuse martial art forms and actions with swords... with the combative actions with swords
* Seem to always mention how certain things "can't be used in a real fight"... usually commenting in a very non-sequitur way, such as saying that while watching a Wu-Shu form on video

I mean... for me... it's sheer madness sometimes, lol!  I mean, I don't want to be on a soap box TOO long here, but... you RARELY see, for example:

* Someone makes some kind of painted art.  Let's say it's a mural.
* Another person comes up and says "Yeah, but would you get HIRED to put that on a VIDEO GAME box?!?  Huh?  Meh--what's the use of your mural..."

In this case, one is art FOR ART'S SAKE + EXPRESSION... and the other is art AS A MEANS TO AN END (in this case, payoff + prestige + whatever video game).

So... I don't mean to get the topic all bent out of shape, but... it's simply about UNDERSTANDING "what piece of the puzzle goes where".

* You don't (solely) teach staged combat to someone if they mean to spar another person...
* You don't (solely) teach sport boxing to someone if they mean to do a "solo" martial arts exhibition...
* and you don't (solely) teach sport fencing to someone if they (god forbid!) are looking for a more "traditional" outlook on "what a duel REALLY felt like"!

That all being said... ALL MARTIAL ARTS ARE VALUABLE.  Smiley  Some in "less" or "more" important ways though to the INDIVIDUAL...

YOU may not enjoy ________, but I do.
I may not enjoy ____, but YOU do.

The important thing is... to understand where each art fits in!  Don't use a display sword for a fencing match, right?  Tongue

Alright, enough of all that...
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2011, 06:19:01 AM »

"Take what is useful, Discard what is useless and Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee The Tao of Jeet Kun Do

It's all valuable depending on what you choose to do with it.

Thats what I got out of that Master Nova.
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‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Novastar
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2011, 07:21:55 AM »

"Take what is useful, Discard what is useless and Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee The Tao of Jeet Kun Do

It's all valuable depending on what you choose to do with it.

Thats what I got out of that Master Nova.
Awwww yeeeeaah.  Someone quotin' da Bruce--words of wisdom for SURE.  Smiley  Also... I certainly hope that is PRECISELY what people do with what Caine and I have put together with NCSCS.  Use what works... don't use what you cannot.

That being said... it's often hard to determine just what IS "useless"... especially if you lack the knowledge of the overall picture of things.  For example... I've had students "stop using" a certain fencing action.  I'd notice over some time.  I'd ask why they don't use (for example) the change-beat (or circular beat) anymore.  They'd say every time they used it, it didn't work...

Then (as you might imagine)... I check their form... TIMING (important!)... usually something is wrong.  Or even if you're VERY EXCELLENT with form, people... NOT EVERY ACTION YOU TRY WILL "SUCCEED" 100% of the time!!  Smiley

So the learning THERE was... just because something doesn't work for you... doesn't mean it's no good.  Especially if you've not yet tried something like 50-100 times first...

And even then... SOME things take ~MORE~ than 100 tries to "get right"...

.
.
.
.

<-- starts thinking about b-twist... lol... *sigh*   Roll Eyes
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Co-Creator of NCSCS (Nova & Caine's Saber Combat System)

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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2011, 07:25:06 AM »

Nero and I are sitting here agreeing that you Master Novastar are one of the most down to earth, knowledgable and impressive individuals we have found on the forums and we wish we lived closer to you.  Being a martial artists I constantly quote Bruce Lee and always appreciate it when someone accurately represents his thoughts.

Keep up the great work Master Novastar!
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 06:18:01 PM »

I feel this video is a perfect example of what Master Nova is talking about.

This is Tony Jaa in a scene from Ong Bak 2, This is the last scene in the movie in which, he uses many different Martial Arts from Wing Chun to Muay Thai, Tiger Silat and Escrima just to name a few. When I think about a Jedi or Sith I think of this, regardless of whether or not you have your saber, you need to be just as skilled with your hands. There is a lot of fancy stuff that he does that you'd think "No, it wouldn't be practical to use that in a real fight." But Master Nova is right It can all be practical given what your situation is.

"When you're talking about fighting, as it is, with no rules, well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!" - Bruce Lee (I am not sorry I love Bruce lee)

Hope you enjoy!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMVonJ3muM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMVonJ3muM</a>


P.S. Thats only the first half of the whole fight scene!
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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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