Soresu: not just a shield.

[Maestro]

Personal pet peeve; when Soresu is refered to as a shield or a mere delaying tactic. This is not so. Yes Soresu is dedicated to the principles of defense and pacifist nonviolence, but to merely delay the inevitable is not a very sophisticated strategy for combat. Soresu is one of my favorite forms. I feel Soresu is a path to defend and protect not from the opponent but from the dark side that creates that opponent. The opponent himself should be protected also. Thus, Soresu seeks to neutralize or end conflict in a win/win scenario.

Here is an example, tell me what you think.

https://youtu.be/7o5vzYAJWgw

[Sapherno11]

Yes, your right, its not a very practical strategy for combat, but in Most of the books, that's exactly what Soresu is, and is usually regarded as Soresu's only weakness, is that your trying to outlast your opponent. Which, is also why many Soresu masters also learn other forms, and use them in conjuction with Soresu, such as Obi-Wan, who was also an accomplished Ataru master. Heck, look at the last battle between Obi Wan and Anakin. Obi Wan was actually heavily using Ataru to get around and away from Anakin, but using Soresu's defensive power.

[Maestro]

Dont disagree, but i cant take the movies fight seriously. They all look like ataru to me. Bazinga.

[Strages]

Canonical Soresu is just a shield. And when converting the classical forms into real-world martial arts/self-defense systems there is absolutely a place for a shield approach. In today's society a fight is never going to last long before others interfere, even in crowded locations that make the arrival of security or police forces difficult you're still looking at a matter of five minutes give or take..and that isn't counting potential bystander interference. And even in self defense causing injury to another can come back to bite you in the backside if you're unlucky.

Learning how to defend yourself for extended periods of time without causing injury to yourself or another is arguably one of the most applicable defensive skills in the modern 1st or 2nd world environment. Surely there is a place for offensive art forms, but there are another 6 lightsaber combat forms that can have offensive focuses. There is no harm in making the canonical shield form a real-world shield form.

[Sapherno11]

Excellent point Strages, and I'd go a step futher too. A shield approach is actually one of my deadliest stance/styles. Basically, its a two part counter style. I wait, block, and then counter with as much speed, power and accuracy as I can. But for there to BE an opening for that strike, I HAVE to block, avoid or redirect that first strike.

...Maestro, I don't mean to be a dick, but when you watch the movies, do you Really think Yoda fights like Dooku, Or Grevious fights like Anakin? Or even Mace Windu fights like Maul? There's clearly a difference there.

[Maestro]

I do have to disagree about the movies. EVERY fight scene in the new trilogy is based on nick gillards stylistic approach to saber combat which he admits is heavy ataru. The only question is how ataru are they? Yoda is super pure ataru, and yes dooku too. He might not flip but he does a fair amount of spinning, and large sweeping parries and flourishes, all hallmarks of ataru. Dooku never uses anything akin to tight controlled movements, based on a straight line, nor does he express any of the other hallmarks of makashi. If it wasn't said that he is makashi, no one would have any reason to believe he was. Obi wan, Anakin, maul, qui gonn, sideous, ect.. the same is true. There is little to differentiate their styles because they are all choreography written by one person. The only difference between them is how ataru are they.
But I digress, this thread is supposed to be about the passive blocking only nature some make soresu out to be, or worse, yet another spin heavy, flourishing style that is soresu in name only. What I was originally trying to express was that Soresu is a shield, but IRL even shields were not historically used only in defence. Shield bashes, pins, locks, and manipulations were integral to close quarters combat and dueling. The shield was considered a weapon. and not only that, but often a more useful and integral one than even a sword! Soresu should be employed in similar manner, because simply blocking is never going to work. It takes all pressure off your opponent and just gives him chance after chance after chance to get something past those defenses. In a duel, you must win. period.

[Sapherno11]

I know the new fights are based on Nick's creation, but bear in mind he also basically Created the different styles, even allowing for the fact that they do have aspects of ataru mixed in. Yoda is PURE Ataru, but there's more to it then that. Yoda is the literal Embodiment of the Jedi Order. He is the Champion of the Light. Why does that matter? Because he also Embodies Ataru. He's constantly in motion, not just attacking, but blocking, defending. Even in philosophical debate, he moves from one point to another with unerring speed and accuracy. Dooku though, I say is quite different.

When I watch Dooku fighting Yoda, I see two VERY different styles. Dooku was a master swordsman, he had mastered ALL lightsaber forms, so when he fought Yoda, he adapted to a Makashi/Ataru blend. When he fought Obi-Wan in episode 2, he fought with Pure Makashi, Extreme precision, exploiting his enemies weak points with ruthless efficiency and accuracy. When he fought Anakin, again in Episode 2, he again used a different style, matching Anakins Djem Sho with his own. Even the Dun Moch strike was FROM Djem Sho. Not Ataru, Not Makashi. Also, parries and flurishes were actually a large part of Makashi as well. Remember that X weave he does right before he attempts to kill Obi? That's called a Makashi Death Weave. As for the lack of tight controlled movements, and being "told" remember, he is a MASTER OF ALL STYLES. Meaning, no matter what you "see", He is a Master Swordsman, and can, and does, use everythting. The only person who uses a "pure" style is Yoda. But even so, I SEE Dooku uses those tight, controlled movements when he fights. Also, bear in mind the "straight line" and discussions here are OUR INTERPRETATION of what he think the styles would be. We have no idea what they actually are, with the only representation being the movies. Meaning that, no matter how much you hate it, the Movies are still Canon, with everything else being our "variant" of it.

As for only blocking, remember, Obi Wan "only blocking" with Soresu managed to cut off 2 of Grevious's 4 arms. Just by blocking.

Guess we have to agree to disagree.

[Maestro]

Saph, I feel like we are talking at cross purposes. You do make some valid points.
Im going to limit myself to soresu and the point you made that obi wan de-armed grevious with "only blocks".
This is the very point my original post was trying to make, that soresu is not meant to be applied in a narrow way.

[Kaza yuri]

I agree with your take, as far as real application it simply needs to be reduced to a non aggressive passive form. In cannon the is a shield of spins and reversals to redirect blaster fire and overwhelming odds, however i agree it should be applied in a broader term when developing the form. image a Shii cho master entering a room he had to reach the far end of, there are guards blocking his way the entire length. As he rushes the room to reach the goal on the far side body parts and weapon with arms still attached would be strewn everywhere. A soresu master should reach the goal in the same amount of time and people are most likely still flying everywhere but the guards would be unconscious or have very minor injuries. Like the difference between a hard form like Shotokan and a soft form like Akido . . .

[Darth Nonymous]

"Just a shield" I don't believe in "just a shield". A shield is a very dangerous weapon. The problem is everyone thinks a shield is armor only. But even historical uses of the shield were dependent on aggressive attacks with it as well.

As far as the cannon forms go, remember that the Forms were not created by Nick Galliard and he has gone on record of saying they have nothing to do with the choreography. everything was done for excitement and thrills. The audience doesn't need to know the origins of the styles. Those were all retconned into the universe in the EU.

TheForms were created by Dr. David West Reynolds, with the help of fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo.

"The seven forms of lightsaber combat received their first description and elaboration in the Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat article released in Star Wars Insider 62. While these fighting styles would be mentioned and used in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, Star Wars: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast and its sequel, Jedi Academy would instead use the three styles; Fast, Medium, and Strong. While each of these forms had strong parallels to the Three Rings of Defense described in the 1998 Expanded Universe novel I, Jedi, they may be little more than game mechanics."