Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?

[Ander]

In my school, thrusting is completely forbidden in all styles, and rightly so in my opinion. Even in Makashi you don't do lunges, but semi-lunges, that is lunges to the side of the opponent with a flick of the wrist to hit his side with the edge of the blade.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I both do and encourage thrusting in my sparring matches, however, I'm doing very controlled thrusts, and it's still dangerous. So if you're going to do it, I recommend the pool noodles over the blade; make the noodle about two inches longer than the blade to account for thrusts.
 
Here's my philosophy on he matter though, if you never train against a direct thrust... you will not be able to effectively defend against a thrust.

Same with everything else, this is the same reason I refused to wear a cup when I practiced martial arts. If you get kicked in the groin once... You never want that to happen again. You will most certainly block the next time.

Obviously you have to be slightly smart for this method of training to work... Forsaking body armor in combat based on the idea that if you get shot you will dodge the bullet next time isn't exactly smart. You must count the cost, a bruise per say is far less damaging than an eye gouged out or a broken rib. Both of which are possible with irresponsible thrusting techniques.

My usual advice, know your limits, know your sparring partner. Communicate and listen to each other.

[Luna]

Obviously you have to be slightly smart for this method of training to work... Forsaking body armor in combat based on the idea that if you get shot you will dodge the bullet next time isn't exactly smart.

Woah woah woah - you're telling me that I'm not Neo? Cool story, bro Seriously, as always, I agree with your opinion. Learn from your mistakes and don't make the same error twice.

[Arakan Steele]

Thrusting?  Oh, man...  I SERIOUSLY don't recommend thrusting, unless you have sufficient protective equipment and training.

THRUSTING strikes are VERY dangerous; it's why most (if not all) kendo schools abstain from teaching thrust strikes ("tsuki") to beginners, and usually reserve such techniques for more advanced students.

Accidentally "walking" into a thrust strike can cause serious or even fatal injury.

I'm just sayin'...

THIS

And it has nothing to do with a tip breaking off either, the dangerous aspect of thrusting is accidentally catching someone the the throat. Even if the round tip is securly in place, you can do serious damage to someone if they happen to "walk in" to your thrust and you happen to catch them in the throat.

Just "aiming" for the chest isn't a safe alternative, if they decide to lunge or duck in some way you might hit their throat instead. Also, even if you hit them in the chest there's a chance it could slip and slid into their throat. I know, the chances of that happening are slim, you don't want to be on either end of that senario the one time it does happen.

[Vrakul]

this is the same reason I refused to wear a cup when I practiced martial arts. If you get kicked in the groin once... You never want that to happen again.

Wow, that's scary! My Kajukenbo school requires a cup for all male students, because Kajukenbo has a LOT of groin shots. It's not a question of if you can block it - you are GOING to get punched/slapped/kicked in the groin, period. Kajukenbo has been called 'the perfected art of dirty street fighting,' lol, and while there are many Kajukenbo artists in tournaments nowadays, the actual art relies heavily on techniques/strikes to sensitive areas (groin, eyes, throat, kidneys, floating rib, etc.) that would disqualify us from tournaments. There's a big difference in tournament Kajukenbo and the real techniques one would use on the street.

I agree 100%, that the best, most effective way to learn to not get hit is to get hit. It isn't fun. Okay, it's a little fun - in a safe setting with a partner that has good control. The first time I took an elbow to the teeth hurt like heck, but it was still fun, because we had mad adrenaline going, and because I was lucky and didn't lose any teeth. The point is, as you stated,  we simply can't learn to defend against any form of attack if you're not training to defend against that attack. While safety and control is very important, equally (or even more) important is to train as realistically as possible - otherwise it's just just an art without the martial component. As practiced as one may be in forms and non-contact drills or tricks, I can't expect myself to step up spontaneously do something I've never done before if and when the need arises. I've seen guys wearing cups dropped from solid hits to the groin!

I used to train with a guy who, when asked if he was wearing a cup, would reply "Dude, I wear a cup to the movie theater!" He was a beast, it was probably true  

[Waxman]

I tend to only do thrusting for show and choreography practices, even for full-on dueling.

I always employ thrusting so that it is not even in a position to hit my opponent but more there for them to parry or to catch them off guard, but I always make sure that even if my opponent doesn't parry, it will still miss them.

In my mind I pretend my opponent just dodged it with their super-reflexes.

[Arakan Steele]

The point is, as you stated,  we simply can't learn to defend against any form of attack if you're not training to defend against that attack. While safety and control is very important, equally (or even more) important is to train as realistically as possible - otherwise it's just just an art without the martial component.

What you say here is true from a "practical" martial arts standpoint. However, there are two things to consider...

1) Swordfighting is no longer a "practical" form of martial arts. How many sword fights are going on out there in the streets? (real sword fights, with someone's life on the line... not talking about putting on a show) In a street fight yes you should be as prepared as you can be from a martial arts standpoint, because your life may very well depend on it. But swordfighting has become more about "art" and less about "martial" since not everyone is walking around town with a sword on their hip anymore.

2) Talking specifically about lightsaber dueling now... lightsaber dueling is NOT a martial art. It's stage combat. Those are two different animals. Yes, there are some basic similarities, but real sword fighting is meant to defend yourself against an opponent trying to kill you. Stage combat is meant to entertain an audience. And thus, safety of your partner (notice I didn't say opponent) should be paramount, just as they should hold your safety in high regards as well.

[Vrakul]

Arakan, agreed on all points. I was specifically replying to Lucien's statement about wearing a cup in martial arts training. I bit off topic, but there you have it 

Back on topic, if what you are practicing is choreographed patterns with an partner who will never thrust, then you would never have a need to defend against it. If, however, you are a part of a saber club, dueling for 'points' or what have you, then I think the same logic would apply unless there was a club-specific rule forbidding that form of attack. If you don't train to defend against that form of attack, then you can't be expected to realistically defend against that form of attack. Just sayin.

I'm not a part of a saber club, and most of my friends whom I duel with really have no practical training of their own, so it's kind of 'anything goes, and a hit is a point.' One friend of mine in particular is very tall and has very long arms, and he absolutely favors thrusting maneuvers to keep me at a distance. It's effective. I found the best way to get in on him is to outmaneuver him and take him at angles.

[Arakan Steele]

Arakan, agreed on all points. I was specifically replying to Lucien's statement about wearing a cup in martial arts training. I bit off topic, but there you have it 

Back on topic, if what you are practicing is choreographed patterns with an partner who will never thrust, then you would never have a need to defend against it. If, however, you are a part of a saber club, dueling for 'points' or what have you, then I think the same logic would apply unless there was a club-specific rule forbidding that form of attack. If you don't train to defend against that form of attack, then you can't be expected to realistically defend against that form of attack. Just sayin.

I'm not a part of a saber club, and most of my friends whom I duel with really have no practical training of their own, so it's kind of 'anything goes, and a hit is a point.' One friend of mine in particular is very tall and has very long arms, and he absolutely favors thrusting maneuvers to keep me at a distance. It's effective. I found the best way to get in on him is to outmaneuver him and take him at angles.

All good points! 

I think the thing is, a lot of inexperienced people get these sabers in their hands and they see all of these fancy moves in the movies and without any real martial arts experience they start learning these lightsaber moves thinking that they are taking a real martial art. They don't realize the difference between authentic martial art weapons training and stage combat training. And that's where a lot of confusion comes in.

[Master Nero Attoru]

All good points! 

I think the thing is, a lot of inexperienced people get these sabers in their hands and they see all of these fancy moves in the movies and without any real martial arts experience they start learning these lightsaber moves thinking that they are taking a real martial art. They don't realize the difference between authentic martial art weapons training and stage combat training. And that's where a lot of confusion comes in.

Exactly.  It's one of the reasons why I regard my untrained friends as VASTLY more dangerous in a casual duel than Artorius.  The difference is in the control - he could hurt me if he wanted to, whereas they could hurt me whether they want to or not...

Thrusting is definitely dangerous, no question about it - there's a reason we use flexible blades and kevlar clothing in fencing.

[Master Lucien Kane]

What you say here is true from a "practical" martial arts standpoint. However, there are two things to consider...


2) Talking specifically about lightsaber dueling now... lightsaber dueling is NOT a martial art. It's stage combat. Those are two different animals. Yes, there are some basic similarities, but real sword fighting is meant to defend yourself against an opponent trying to kill you. Stage combat is meant to entertain an audience. And thus, safety of your partner (notice I didn't say opponent) should be paramount, just as they should hold your safety in high regards as well.

It doesn't have to be just a staged combat perspective. I dunno about you, but I get a certain therapeutic thrill from sparring full force with my lightsabers. Protective equipment worn properly, and proper training partners, and as Master Nero Attoru so eloquently stated proper control can allow for LED sabers to become a martial art. Not just staged combat, not to mention the satisfaction I get from executing flourishes and spins during a full contact sparring match is unrivaled except for maybe skydiving.

I spar with my sabers, and from my martial knowledge I am able to choreograph duels that are highly realistic and aesthetically pleasing... but it all stems from a higher knowledge of what actually works in combat.

That being said, I was a Marine, I have some pretty advanced tactical training. That is unrivaled from the tactical knowledge that learning how to wield a sword has given me. Let me tell you, a sword fight is ten times harder than a gunfight from a tactical perspective. I personally think that fencing, kenjutsu, iado and other sword arts be taught on the side for infantry and especially special forces type operators. Mainly because of the tactical wits it provides.

So while yes a large part of the community is primarily concerned with staged combat, which there is nothing wrong with. There are those of us who are deadly with our lightsabers. I think Master Attoru put it best Master Artorius can hurt him but chooses not to.

Mind you I do not encourage inexperienced individuals utilizing these rather dangerous props in barbarian duels without regard for life and limb, I am merely stating that for the experienced martial artist, and LED saber turns into nothing more than an extension of our bodies and of our training in whatever field that may be, and that is as real as it gets.

lightsabers are what I consider the MMA of the sword world... I would elaborate, but I feel I have ranted on for too long as it is.

[Vrakul]

There are those of us who are deadly with our lightsabers.

Recently, we had a gentleman with obvious mental issues up here in the Pacific Northwest grab a couple of plastic Ultra FX sabers at a toy store and proceed to attack customers in the aisles. He then ran out of the store with his stolen light sabers and was confronted by two patrol officers in the parking lot. When threatened, the officers attempted to subdue the man with tasers. He batted one away and knocked the other one off of him with his stolen plastic light sabers. The police then tackled and subdued the man, taking him to the hospital for mental evaluation before charging him. True story.

Now, imagine if this gentleman had been attacking people at random with two shiny new War Glaives. I believe this rather humorous story would have ended quite badly for him.

[Xanedan]

Do you think the officer would have shouted "UNLIMITED POWER!" had the taser probes connected?

[Vrakul]

HA! 

[Master Lucien Kane]

lol See though anything can be wielded with deadly intent to some success. The LED sabers, are just more durable, and quite more deadly than the plastic ones sold in most stores.

That being said that was in your hometown? Crazy, I read about that a few weeks ago... As sad as it is, it's still quite impressive.