Thoughts about combat

[imperialknight23]

I was thinking last night about lightsaber combat, and martial arts.  Myself, loooong ago, was a black belt in Hapkido.  I have a respect for the martial sciences and look at fighting with certain critique.

I was thinking, because i have a small hands and somewhat short (5'4"), long hilted (approching 12") did not appeal to me, until i started thinking again.

Because there is so much room on the hilt when being held with one hand, depending on the situation and application, shifting your hand up or down the hilt applies different styles.  For quick infighting (that is close together) and defense, you move your hand up the hilt for maximum control of the blade like a surgeon.  this would be akin to using the saber as a fencing foil.  good position for thrusting, but effectively shortens the weapon's reach.

If you move your hand down the hilt, it would become more of a slashing weapon.  Heavy strikes with wide arcs.  This would lend to form juyo.  This also extends the reach of the weapon.  The problem with this is that your attacks would be very open to being telegraphed by your opponent.

These tactics apply to a single, constant length saber with a long hilt.  If you have a shoto, thats used like in the short hilted style.


Other than that thought, i was also thinking about jeet kune do.  Bruce Lee's system was not a system at all, but a way of approaching martial arts of any kind with an open mind.  Mixing forms (just like the jedi do with the saber forms) was a staple of Bruce Lee's teaching.

Recommended reading for any martial artist, and even saber enthusiasts alike, is Bruce Lee's book 'The Tao of Jeet Kune Do'

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

You and I are going to be the best of friends.

My sabers that are coming today are both initiate hilts and blades.

I have no formal training but I worked this out...

Using the shorter blades is like using a Gladius, Thats the best way I can describe it; It feel so much better dual wielding with shorter blades, so much more control.
Then when I use reverse hand which is my preferred, I like to use Muay Thai as inspiration. Using all my limbs. the tip of blade as it's held reverse stands in place of your elbow.

My wife has a standard issue staff with initiate blades and when she single wields, she likes to use a shorter blade. She can get closer to maneuver in and around a longer blade. She prefers the longer hilt with shorter blade because of how easily she can pivot the saber in hand while directing the tip with her back hand.

[imperialknight23]

i see how you hold it, kinda like this



except your stance and hands would be like in muay thai, where the fists are held up a little, with palms facing forward in a fist.  and your slashes would be like when a muay thai practitioner would throw elbows. 

as for your wife, that longer hilt and shorter blade is very manuberable.  I forgot to talk about two-handed style in my initial post, but its a great middle ground for attack and defense, but the reach would not be as long as it would be for single wielding.  more so i would say that it is slighty more defensive.  there is also the various stances when using two hands.
 

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Thats a good picture of what I mean but like you said with a different stance.

She wants to learn to dual wield but feels she needs to strengthen her arms, doesn't feel like she has a lot of control.

[imperialknight23]

Thats a good picture of what I mean but like you said with a different stance.

She wants to learn to dual wield but feels she needs to strengthen her arms, doesn't feel like she has a lot of control.

maybe let her try out your blades? shorter hilts and blades?  or lighter blades?

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Will do, but she is going to have to pry them from my hands lol.

[Manroon]

Interesting thread here.

Personally, I have some very basic Karate training that I try to factor into my fighting style. I can't tell you much about what I know, save that I learned from a friend who was a little out of practice but had had extensive training when he was younger. He couldn't remember names or anything, so I have no idea what anything is really called or even the name of the style. lol All I know is that it's one of a bazillion Okinawan styles, so think original Karate Kid.

Anyways, on that line I like to use a hand and a half saber most of the time, keeping my style one handed for the most part and bringing my second in for extra strength and leverage at times when it fits. I do like to bring out my SI alot though, which is thoroughly a two hander in lines of length. It balances well and because of my height I love the extra reach it gives me. (I also typically take a lot from Makashi) Probably the best thing I can say I took away from the Karate for use with sabers is the old adage: 'the best way to avoid a hit is not to be there.' Before that, I used to try and block everything, and I lost nearly every duel for it. I spent more time blocking then striking, and lets just say I'm not skilled enough to make a go of it with Soresu style fighting against a real opponent. Now, I sidestep or back away from alot of strikes I would have deflected before, and it leaves me with LOADS of openings to go after my opponent. Keeps things more interesting, and even sometimes gives me a sporting chance against guys with much more experience and training. I'm also looking to start duel wielding once my Proph is back in action.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Fantastic post sir.... I have 15 years in Shorin Ryu, 4 years MCMAP, (which is not much at all) about a years worth of Kenjutsu training, and a smidgeon of informal training in fencing.

I'm only good at dueling because I'm fast, I have good instincts when it comes to my defense, and I have a good eye for openings. Otherwise I do things that make no sense from most people's point of view. I spin I flourish, I switch to my off hand, and I like to move in close. All things you generally don't want to do in a duel. It works for me, because it makes my opponents uncomfortable, and it breaks up their timing. So my unorthodox fighting style helps me to stay a few steps ahead of my opponents, but just like everything else it doesn't work for everyone.

I'd most likely akin my fighting to a Juyo/Makashi blend with a bit of Ataru thrown in.

[Novastar]

...Other than that thought, i was also thinking about jeet kune do.  Bruce Lee's system was not a system at all, but a way of approaching martial arts of any kind with an open mind.  Mixing forms (just like the jedi do with the saber forms) was a staple of Bruce Lee's teaching.

Recommended reading for any martial artist, and even saber enthusiasts alike, is Bruce Lee's book 'The Tao of Jeet Kune Do'

This is precisely how I feel about all forms of "combat" (which are usually forms of sport combat these days, since we don't plan on killing each other).  Using NO way as the way... NO (particular) style as the style... NO limit as the limit.

THAT ALL BEING SAID... it's up to people to actually comprehend what Bruce Lee was saying, since there are the following caveats:

* Just because the overall concept is "NO way as 'the' way"... it doesn't simply mean that "ANYTHING goes".  Far from it.  We're talking about what ACTUALLY WORKS--for YOU.  For others.  For the moment.  For your moment.  For theirs.

* There are some things in martial arts that are indisputable facts.  For example--the direct attack (when executed properly) is the fastest, simplest, most direct (duh) route to the opponent's target.  THERE IS NOTHING FASTER THAN THIS.  No other attack definition can trump the efficiency and speed of the best direct attack out there.

Sure, YOUR technique may have flaws... and thus... it won't be a "true" direct attack... but at any rate, the direct attack is present in ALL FORMS OF MARTIAL ART, and you simply cannot survive (for sparring / real-time combat) without it.

* When we're talking about "what actually works for you"... we're also not talking about the whole "I tried it a few times, it didn't work--so that's not for me" kind of thing.  lol...

In order to be a well-accomplished martial artist... you have REALLY put some training and effort into a technique before it can be deemed "useful or not" to you.

Finally... I'll just say this.  There are THREE major components to making a successful martial action land.  There are other things that matter (some people say strength, speed, accuracy--but I file that ALL UNDER TECHNIQUE)... but without even ONE of these three--your action will generally not land, nor will it be very effective even if it does hit:

* TECHNIQUE
* MEASURE
* TIMING

If your technique is pure but your timing is poor... you will not hit your target.
If your timing & technique are pure but your measure is off... you will not hit your target.
If your measure & timing are pure but your technique is poor... you MAY not hit your target.
If your technique is pure but your measure is off... you will not hit your target.

In my opinion... you know what the most important of these three things are?  Measure.  Without it--you can achieve NOTHING.  Fortunately... if your measure is correct and your timing is... "mehh" and your technique is "acceptable"... you may still land your action.

So.  If you get ANYTHING from what I'm saying here... train for MEASURE.  Proper measure.  The rest may fall into place if you just put your mind to do some decent hand techniques with some timing drills too--you don't even have to be PERFECT on those... just pretty good!

But again--if your measure is off... adios and via con dios, compadre. 

[imperialknight23]

Wow, feels like a bit of an honor to have a post from master novastar.

I will have to concur with novastar.  Measure among those three tenets is vital.  Cant land a hit if you are too far, and cant defend properly if you are in the wrong position.

Timing i would say comes at a second.  To land some hits, there is something called "broken rhythm", where one establishes the rhythm and then breaks it.

Technique i would say comes in last.  Unless you work on good foot work (measure) and timing technique will be for nothing.  Technique is something that can be honed to a perfection.  but if you labor over it and the other 2 qualities are not in line, then technique suffers.

One of the most important lessons of bruce lee was to SPAR every chance you get.  This is the only way you will know what works for you and what doesnt.  And if it doesnt work the first time try it a second and third time and etc.  If it still doesnt work for you then it doesnt work.  But only truly through sparring will we be able to understand what works.  Bruce was a big opponent of the rigid forms and katas that karate and kung fu implement.  He probably would also oppose velocities that jedi use in training.

[Manroon]

I agree on the importance of sparring. Completely. Even in my limited experience, there was no substitute in training for a good sparring match to make you LEARN and give you more experience. Katas, velocities, repetition... they all promote muscle memory which is important, and can help with your endurance which is also useful, but sparring makes you think on your feet and shows you what works, how, and why. Heck, when I was younger and got by on cheap-o-deluxe plastic sabers, me and my buddy would spar every day for weeks at a time after school and with ZERO training, it got to be kinda shocking how well we could fight each other. If we chose, we could go all out and have an incredibly intense fight lasting for mere seconds, or duel moderately for the length of our block. Dang, I wish we hadn't stopped doing that. lol

[Master BStone]

What I teach at my school is a variant of a few different thoughts here. Nova and I agree on the first priority for sure...
#1 Distance (the measure): knowledge of, control of, and ultimately exploitation of, the distance between you and your target.  Cultivating an instinctual perception of the distance is central to training.

#2 Movement: traveling distance over time creates opportunities to both strike and be struck, and so studying how to control and refine one's movement is of paramount importance. the size of your step, the flex of the swordarm, the posture, center of balance, rhythm, knowledge of different steps, all of these contribute to mastery of movement.

#3 Use of the Point: whatever the striking surface of your chosen weapon might be, this is where you develop the skills to nail a target of your choosing squarely and deliberately, over and over again, using your knowledge of the distance and movement.

#4 Bladework: how many different techniques can you use to manipulate the lightsaber/blade/fist/knee/weapon/thing to defend  yourself at a critical moment and/or launch a successful assault upon the target.  Easily the largest body of knowledge, this is where the student's discerning nature and the instructors intuition will help form a style to best suit the practitioner. This is the broad base of the priority pyramid, providing stability, but mostly useless without the previous three.

Distance rules the priorities because of the dependence the other tenets have upon it. Timing becomes my unspoken additional trait, because it is created by the study of the distance and movement together. 

[Novastar]

Ironically enough... you can see that all of our comments...

...are actually all VERY SIMILAR... if not identical.    Despite some people possible thinking that they are different... have a look:

Broken rhythm = TIMING!    (in this case, it's calling for timing CHANGE actually... but again, this is the point--the RIGHT/CORRECT time to parry/attack = timing)
Movement = MEASURE (ok, we could call this footwork, but... whatever--it changes the IMPORTANT thing--the measure between X & Y)
Use of the Point = TECHNIQUE  (in this case, Masta B is talking about "foil" or "Epee" specifically... but it's still all about technique--PROPER technique)
Bladework = TECHNIQUE

And again, I think the only one of the three that has any "extra weight" is indeed measure.  For, without it--you can achieve nothing.  But the others MUST BE PRESENT TOO.  At least in some decent form or another.

Also... the reason my terms here are a bit more broad is the fact that they can relate to ALL MARTIAL ART:

* Bladework = sword arts.  "Technique" can mean punches, kicks, sword, staff, L-saber, etc.
* Use of point = thrust-only weapons.  Again, "Technique" can mean punches, kicks, sword, staff, L-saber, etc.

As to what Manroon is speaking of... yup... drills and "katas" and practice drills... all good stuff!!

As to what Imperial Knight is saying... I would still say it will take MANY, MANY more than 3 or 4 or 5 or 50 tries at a type of action to determine if it can be useful for someone.  Many of my students have done well with a technique during classtimes... but then... over time... something "broke".  They'd start doing an action... OUT OF DISTANCE (wrong measure).  Eventually, without enough observation... they might abandon the technique simply because... "it doesn't work anymore", hehehe. 

Thing is... if you "break" even *ONE* of these three basic martial arts principles (as in my initial post)... you can fool yourself into thinking a certain martial action is "impossible" or "useless" to you. 

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

I love to learn.

Forums you are a vast well of information.

[Shalateaus]

  so im second gonna second what manroon posted i have some training by my uncle and what i've read of a old style that i got interested in shotokan and i was wondering how dual wielding would work for it seriously of course guys. and on that note i think shotokan is closest jarkai