Light Saber Dulon (forms)- martial or art?

[Musashi Padawan]

I certainly have an opinion on this issue!  But the point of a forum is to hear what others have to say - and I am curious, please weigh in. 
We devote a lot of training time to the dulon - more than sparring.  As much as I enjoy dueling, I enjoy the focus and mindfulness that dulon practice brings even more.  Also, I am absolutely convinced the dulon teaches essential elements for dueling. So in my opinion the dulon is BOTH martial and art. 
I made a video with footage I had of practicing the first three forms in some exotic star wars locales. My precision on these is way off based on a combination of unsure footing, casino planet drinks and how long ago a few of these were shot, but I wanted to showcase the dulon in a more aesthetically pleasant environment than the terribly ugly studio the AFA shares with a Kempo school.  Stay tuned for a series of videos on the channel focusing on a more technical study of the dulon!
http://youtu.be/5Qgo7I6hctc

[wandering-seeker]

I would say that a form is an art, not a martial reality. Their entire purpose is to center the mind and body, to teach muscle memory for the actual fights. You can't have a martial art without the forms, but the forms are art, not martial.

Reason I say that is because, beside the fact that forms are meditative and educational in nature, when you're in a fight, you're not using the forms.

[Master Althalus]

You can't have a martial art without the forms,

Oh, you can.
What IS a form (in every martial art that uses them)? A mock artificial fight. You act as if attacked by a certain number of morons (because most forms are based on rather basic answers to rather basic attacks), just so your body learns to respond in a certain way.

Forms were developed, when the actual fighting art fell into disuse. They preserve traditional teachings, they were made into something like moving meditation but over time, they lost their connection to actual fighting.

when you're in a fight, you're not using the forms

Which proves my point. 

European martial arts mostly work with Plays instead. Two opponents, one attacker, one defender (changing roles sometimes during the Play), using techniques that can be applied in actual free-play. Those Plays can be trained as Drills (with a partner), but they can also be trained like shadow-boxing, looking more like traditional Asian forms. Perhaps that's where the forms developed from.

[Darth Sabre]

Martial arts covers many things for me ... trainng your body, training your mind. Training combat, training your inner focus. Training technique, training flow. And many things more ...

Being a Learner in Exile, dulon has always been a major attraction in each form for me, so I agree with you on the martial ARTS aspect of that step. It CAN link all the steps you have learned before, gives them purpose and perspective and lets you flow in your learned techniques. And here is where I disagree with you: while you are right that the dulon can teach us certain things, the elements and techniques for dueling cannot be learned from it ... they must be learned and internalized before. Otherwise dulon as an exercise (like a kata in karate) is only a choreographed sequence that is technically only as valuable as the skill of the swordsman. In the worst case, it can be just an imitation of the form without true understanding.

And I personally like the idea of training on different terrains ... not only for visual purposes.

One personal note, though: what you have shown in your videos is your take on the TPLA dulons I-III. While all the TPLA material is open-source and free for anyone to use and work with, you should at least give credits at the end of your video(s).

[Darth Nonymous]

I certainly have an opinion on this issue!  But the point of a forum is to hear what others have to say - and I am curious, please weigh in.  
We devote a lot of training time to the dulon - more than sparring.  As much as I enjoy dueling, I enjoy the focus and mindfulness that dulon practice brings even more.  Also, I am absolutely convinced the dulon teaches essential elements for dueling. So in my opinion the dulon is BOTH martial and art.  
I made a video with footage I had of practicing the first three forms in some exotic star wars locales. My precision on these is way off based on a combination of unsure footing, casino planet drinks and how long ago a few of these were shot, but I wanted to showcase the dulon in a more aesthetically pleasant environment than the terribly ugly studio the AFA shares with a Kempo school.  Stay tuned for a series of videos on the channel focusing on a more technical study of the dulon!
http://youtu.be/5Qgo7I6hctc

I will keep this just a brief mention and will send a PM soon. You are welcome to use the TPLA material, but we do ask that you give us credit. These sets and exercises represent a lot of hard work and we hope that the work can be given it's due. We welcome anyone to freely use our material under the rules of Creative Commons 4.0 Share Alike license.https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

As for the topic, I will say that dulon in our system is a solo exercise and is focused on internal development like fitness, breath, footwork, and technique. Dulon is only as "useful" as the practitioner's skill level. Some are great at forms and sets, yet have a hard time against resistance. Dulon is artificial resistance that tries to be analogous to the stress of fighting.

Also, we have an official TPLA School rather close to you in Syracuse. Check out "the Gathering of Sabers" https://www.facebook.com/thegatheringofsabers/ It's a little it of a jog, but you might be able to get some direct instruction in our system, if you are interested.

[Darzik]

Hello this is Sifu Anthony Iglesias of Syracuse Martial Arts Academy and The Gathering of Sabers. As a certified instructor of the TPLA system I can clearly see you are using our forms (dulon). My suggestion is 2 fold. Firstly it would be to give credit to the system you are attempting to use. Martial arts is also about honor and giving credit to the founders of the system is the honorable thing to to. Secondly, if you really want to teach our system there is a process we put all our instructors through in order to maintain the standards of the TPLA system. Please reach out to us ASAP so we can discuss your training.

Thank you,
Sifu Anthony Iglesias
Syracuse Martial Arts Academy
The Gathering of Sabers
www.syracusemartialarts.com
www.facebook.com/thegatheringofsabers

[Musashi Padawan]

No disrespect meant. I am new here and in no way wish to take credit for others work or draw negative attention to the school I attend, it’s founder or myself. Video removed.

[Darth Nonymous]

No disrespect meant. I am new here and in no way wish to take credit for others work or draw negative attention to the school I attend, it’s founder or myself. Video removed.

None taken. But if you guys are using our material, please just give proper attribution and you will be fine.

[Darzik]

No disrespect meant. I am new here and in no way wish to take credit for others work or draw negative attention to the school I attend, it’s founder or myself. Video removed.

Not a problem. During the spring, summer and fall seasons I'd be happy to come do seminars at your school to help you guys along the path of our system. Feel free to contact me via our facebook group.

[Musashi Padawan]

Again apologies for my ignorance derailing an otherwise very interesting discussion...

[Cosmoline]

Just from my own experience in HEMA and seeing what's happened in Tai Chi, if you want to keep it martial it appears to be critical to constantly come back to combat.  So even in solo drills, we are instructed to imagine the opponent.  Without that the forms become bigger, wider and more acrobatic.  With plenty of false time attacks and exposed body parts.  But on the other hand it often looks better for the camera or audience if you are keeping things big and open.