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Author Topic: Lightsabers in trouble  (Read 14075 times)
Master Medwyn
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« on: January 01, 2019, 12:14:49 PM »

Just have come across this video, hard to argue the points unfortunately...
(On the throne room-scene analysis I was laughing here as hard as I did in the cinema room back in the day.)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c85KaDSMIRM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">Sorry...</a>
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2019, 01:56:06 PM »

Funny, I watched this yesterday. I completely agree. Point incoming
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2019, 06:25:05 PM »

I saw this video a while ago, had a few issues with it.  Now the whole thing seemed to just be a build up for tearing down the Throne Room scene.  Which I have no issue with.  There was not one reason for Rey to have been able to defeat the Praetorians so easily, narratively speaking.  But they seemed to have just glossed over (or were unaware) of the many examples of Non-Force users using Lightsabers in combat both in the Old EU and Current Canon.  Boba Fett, General Grevious, Pre Visla, Cad,  bane to name a few.  The thing these characters had in common was they were all trained in combat.  Much like If your trained in one type of swordsmanship you can pick up another type of sword and use it...BUT you wont be able to use it to its fullest extent. Contrary to common belief, lightsabers do have weight so swinging them and not hitting themselves isn't even a thing.  But you'll notice none of them do the fancy flourishes Jedi/Sith are so fond of other than grevious.   The fights these characters were in showed they could hold their own against Force users..for a bit.  But ultimately couldn't win.
          In terms of Rey, she was a scrapper.  Had to learn to defend herself on Jakku so could "hold her own" so to speak.  Her fight with Kylo showed her constantly making heavy swipes....much like she would do with her staff.  Each blow though was easily parried by kylo in which she would then retreat.  As well at this point, which has been stated before, Kylo was not in the best shape..physically or mentally.  His connection to the Dark Side was flickering because of what he had just done.  So his Pain was a hindrance instead of a boon.  But he still got the upper hand.  UNTIL Rey allowed to Force to flow.  Not for her to control though...the Force was controlling her.  In that moment she was angry, scared, hurt and mourning both Han and Finn.....She used the Dark Side.  This was where I thought they were going to go (and for all we know its what JJ intended).  Rey had shown her capability to mimic what she felt.  Kylo pushed into her mind so she copied the feeling and pushed back.  Everything about how she used the Force was what she saw from Kylo...Dark Side.  But of course any interting thing that was started in TFA was abandoned in TLJ.
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2019, 07:13:01 PM »

I saw this video a while ago, had a few issues with it.  Now the whole thing seemed to just be a build up for tearing down the Throne Room scene.  Which I have no issue with.  There was not one reason for Rey to have been able to defeat the Praetorians so easily, narratively speaking.  But they seemed to have just glossed over (or were unaware) of the many examples of Non-Force users using Lightsabers in combat both in the Old EU and Current Canon.  Boba Fett, General Grevious, Pre Visla, Cad,  bane to name a few.  The thing these characters had in common was they were all trained in combat.  Much like If your trained in one type of swordsmanship you can pick up another type of sword and use it...BUT you wont be able to use it to its fullest extent. Contrary to common belief, lightsabers do have weight so swinging them and not hitting themselves isn't even a thing.  But you'll notice none of them do the fancy flourishes Jedi/Sith are so fond of other than grevious.   The fights these characters were in showed they could hold their own against Force users..for a bit.  But ultimately couldn't win.
          In terms of Rey, she was a scrapper.  Had to learn to defend herself on Jakku so could "hold her own" so to speak.  Her fight with Kylo showed her constantly making heavy swipes....much like she would do with her staff.  Each blow though was easily parried by kylo in which she would then retreat.  As well at this point, which has been stated before, Kylo was not in the best shape..physically or mentally.  His connection to the Dark Side was flickering because of what he had just done.  So his Pain was a hindrance instead of a boon.  But he still got the upper hand.  UNTIL Rey allowed to Force to flow.  Not for her to control though...the Force was controlling her.  In that moment she was angry, scared, hurt and mourning both Han and Finn.....She used the Dark Side.  This was where I thought they were going to go (and for all we know its what JJ intended).  Rey had shown her capability to mimic what she felt.  Kylo pushed into her mind so she copied the feeling and pushed back.  Everything about how she used the Force was what she saw from Kylo...Dark Side.  But of course any interting thing that was started in TFA was abandoned in TLJ.

I agree with you that Rey clearly had training fighting with a staff, so I could see some of the skill translating, particularly parrying. I thought it was a bit of a stretch for an ex-Stormtrooper to also know how to fight with a saber, just because I don't understand why fighting with that type of weapon (or similar) would be part of their training when they primarily wielded blasters.

I looked at Rey like a skilled fighter, with some natural force ability helping her. As you said, able to hold her own, but not forever. I do personally think she should have gotten her ass kicked a bit more in the initial fights, or maybe Kylo Ren is just weak? LOL.

But I don't see why other people can't pick up lightsabers and fight with them, it's not like they're all Thor's Hammers. I just think they need to do a little more work on the backstory of training when people end up naturally good with them, and definitely show a difference between a trained Jedi/Sith vs someone who knows swordplay.

On the flipside, if they start having Jawas and Ewoks involved in lightsaber battles then they've lost me.
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2019, 07:39:15 PM »

I agree with you that Rey clearly had training fighting with a staff, so I could see some of the skill translating, particularly parrying. I thought it was a bit of a stretch for an ex-Stormtrooper to also know how to fight with a saber, just because I don't understand why fighting with that type of weapon (or similar) would be part of their training when they primarily wielded blasters.

I looked at Rey like a skilled fighter, with some natural force ability helping her. As you said, able to hold her own, but not forever. I do personally think she should have gotten her ass kicked a bit more in the initial fights, or maybe Kylo Ren is just weak? LOL.

But I don't see why other people can't pick up lightsabers and fight with them, it's not like they're all Thor's Hammers. I just think they need to do a little more work on the backstory of training when people end up naturally good with them, and definitely show a difference between a trained Jedi/Sith vs someone who knows swordplay.

On the flipside, if they start having Jawas and Ewoks involved in lightsaber battles then they've lost me.

In terms of Finn, you see he fought a Trooper that used a "Tonfa"  so it isn't a stretch to think they all learned some-type of melee fighting, which was confirmed in one of the short books released after the film.  Turns out that trooper was in Finn's Unit, so it was actually kind of a personal battle.
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2019, 08:18:03 PM »

I like the points you guys are making, brings a lot of good perspective and takes things deeper than what the narrator of the clip was willing to go.

A point that he brought up and that I agree with is that so many blows that those lightsabers landed should've been leathal and final. No scratching or flesh wounds. All other examples of lightsaber combat had this effect until the Disney era. I'd like to see that changed back with films going forward.
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2019, 08:32:40 PM »

I like the points you guys are making, brings a lot of good perspective and takes things deeper than what the narrator of the clip was willing to go.

A point that he brought up and that I agree with is that so many blows that those lightsabers landed should've been leathal and final. No scratching or flesh wounds. All other examples of lightsaber combat had this effect until the Disney era. I'd like to see that changed back with films going forward.

In the instance of Finn's back and Kylo's face...both were grazes and not full cuts.  From what I could tell both wounds were supposed to be much more severe later on ... but RJ seemed to decide to gloss over them...even lessening and moving Kylo's scar.
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2019, 08:40:06 PM »

I like the points you guys are making, brings a lot of good perspective and takes things deeper than what the narrator of the clip was willing to go.

A point that he brought up and that I agree with is that so many blows that those lightsabers landed should've been leathal and final. No scratching or flesh wounds. All other examples of lightsaber combat had this effect until the Disney era. I'd like to see that changed back with films going forward.

Remember what Luke did with Vader on Bespin - that hit on his shoulder. No dismembering although a lightsaber can cut through that armor with ease. When you want it to - Ep VI, Death Star. And that was pre-Disney Wink

Anyway, any skilled user (and I count Rey as a skilled user due to her staff training) can control his strikes and turn them into lethal blows or just cuts and thrusts that defeat the opponent without killing him. See Dooku on Geonosis or Grievous' ship - pre-Disney Wink Or Anakin in Ep III with that scar across his eye - pre-Disney Wink

So, I don't really think it's an issue or logical error when lightsabers produce non-lethal wounds...although I agree that the ways Kylo defeated Finn and Rey defeated Kylo in TFA would normally have killed them. There was too much strength and too less precision involved. However, I wouldn't blame Disney for that, really...they haven't done everything right, yes, but I still think they make a good job with the new movies, series etc. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 11:16:14 PM »

What I really have found questionable the most is the execution of these fighting scenes with regards to the characters and their (supposed) (and often post-explained and justified) skills with a lightsaber.
That choreography in the throne room was disastrous. I remember seeing it in the cinema and couldn't save facepalming all over the place. Mostly for the reasons this guy points out.

Kylo's uncontrolled style can somewhat be explained by this "lore" but what I saw in both movies so far was a non-polished, mostly plainly uncoordinated whacking in every direction where the wind blows. Those floor hits, those fight scenes altogether didn't show anything of the character's skills whatever they tried to build up. The actor was just not the best choice for that maybe.
I can't just buy a lore if it shows otherwise on the screen, especially if they try to sell it with that vague way a 6 year old tries to convince his parents it wasn't him breaking that vase an hour before with the broomstick.

All the logical flaws on top of this doesn't help either - if they expect me, the fan to create sweating explanations to save their lazy work, I'm afraid that's not very professional of them.
I have never felt any issues before, even with the prequels which had some flaws in play but those flaws were rather dramaturgical and actors' defects while the lore was convincingly being built with every step backing up the previous one and drawing it further. Lucas appears to be way more intelligent to build and extend any lore, Disney has quite a week spot there.
Not sure I'll be there watching Ep9, maybe on DVD when it's on sale.
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 11:38:37 PM »

In the instance of Finn's back and Kylo's face...both were grazes and not full cuts.  From what I could tell both wounds were supposed to be much more severe later on ... but RJ seemed to decide to gloss over them...even lessening and moving Kylo's scar.

Well, if you've ever just grazed yourself with a soldering iron tip it still burns like hell for a long time hahaha. A lightsaber graze would be the Star Wars version of a paper cut.

In terms of Finn, you see he fought a Trooper that used a "Tonfa"  so it isn't a stretch to think they all learned some-type of melee fighting, which was confirmed in one of the short books released after the film.  Turns out that trooper was in Finn's Unit, so it was actually kind of a personal battle.

That's true, okay I'll give it to him that he wouldn't have been worthless with it.
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2019, 11:46:53 PM »

Well, if you've ever just grazed yourself with a soldering iron tip it still burns like hell for a long time hahaha. A lightsaber graze would be the Star Wars version of a paper cut.

That's true, okay I'll give it to him that he wouldn't have been worthless with it.

What I meant is that neither, being grazes, would have been deadly.  But both, even with bacta, should have had worse lasting effects.  The way I thought it was going to go was either Finn would be relegated to a chair of some kind or had a mechanical spine.  With Kylo I figured he was going to be really messed up again in EP 8 and be forced to wear a mask now instead just wanting to.  Suffer his grandfathers pain so to speak.



What I really have found questionable the most is the execution of these fighting scenes with regards to the characters and their (supposed) (and often post-explained and justified) skills with a lightsaber.
That choreography in the throne room was disastrous. I remember seeing it in the cinema and couldn't save facepalming all over the place. Mostly for the reasons this guy points out.

Kylo's uncontrolled style can somewhat be explained by this "lore" but what I saw in both movies so far was a non-polished, mostly plainly uncoordinated whacking in every direction where the wind blows. Those floor hits, those fight scenes altogether didn't show anything of the character's skills whatever they tried to build up. The actor was just not the best choice for that maybe.
I can't just buy a lore if it shows otherwise on the screen, especially if they try to sell it with that vague way a 6 year old tries to convince his parents it wasn't him breaking that vase an hour before with the broomstick.

All the logical flaws on top of this doesn't help either - if they expect me, the fan to create sweating explanations to save their lazy work, I'm afraid that's not very professional of them.
I have never felt any issues before, even with the prequels which had some flaws in play but those flaws were rather dramaturgical and actors' defects while the lore was convincingly being built with every step backing up the previous one and drawing it further. Lucas appears to be way more intelligent to build and extend any lore, Disney has quite a week spot there.
Not sure I'll be there watching Ep9, maybe on DVD when it's on sale.

I had those explanations for Ep.7 when I left the theater...for me...all the evidence was there to extrapolate it.  Ep. 8 is inexcusable though.  Some of Kylo's moves in Ep. 7 had hints of Longsword in them with of course his erratic behavior thrown in.  I didn't mind..it fit the character and weapon.  But TLJ....I don't know what they wanted there....but it was bad.  They even had to digitally remove a blade because they realized the guard could have stabbed Rey in the back.
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2019, 12:45:50 AM »

All the logical flaws on top of this doesn't help either - if they expect me, the fan to create sweating explanations to save their lazy work, I'm afraid that's not very professional of them.

LOVE this, perfectly sums up the majority of my feelings towards a lot of the decisions and plot points made in the new trilogy.

Finn's injuries suffered in TFA really bugged me when they carried over to TLJ. I think they clearly explained Finn's injuries away that it was just a grazing blow, but if you watch the fight between Kylo and Finn again, there is simply no way that Kylo didn't turn his entire spinal cord into a charred mess. Finn turns away and Kylo just nonchalantly runs the saber up his back. Unless Kylo deliberately held back from killing him, which doesn't make any sense, then he's a total noob at saber combat (which sadly seems to make more sense overall.)
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2019, 01:23:48 AM »

LOVE this, perfectly sums up the majority of my feelings towards a lot of the decisions and plot points made in the new trilogy.

Finn's injuries suffered in TFA really bugged me when they carried over to TLJ. I think they clearly explained Finn's injuries away that it was just a grazing blow, but if you watch the fight between Kylo and Finn again, there is simply no way that Kylo didn't turn his entire spinal cord into a charred mess. Finn turns away and Kylo just nonchalantly runs the saber up his back. Unless Kylo deliberately held back from killing him, which doesn't make any sense, then he's a total noob at saber combat (which sadly seems to make more sense overall.)


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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2019, 02:17:40 AM »

LOVE this, perfectly sums up the majority of my feelings towards a lot of the decisions and plot points made in the new trilogy.

Finn's injuries suffered in TFA really bugged me when they carried over to TLJ. I think they clearly explained Finn's injuries away that it was just a grazing blow, but if you watch the fight between Kylo and Finn again, there is simply no way that Kylo didn't turn his entire spinal cord into a charred mess. Finn turns away and Kylo just nonchalantly runs the saber up his back. Unless Kylo deliberately held back from killing him, which doesn't make any sense, then he's a total noob at saber combat (which sadly seems to make more sense overall.)


Like I said, It seemed his injury was supposed be much more serious...but it was one of the many things RJ just decided to gloss over
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2019, 02:21:15 PM »

I do have to agree that the choreography in the throne room was horrible, but what bugged me most was that it looked like they plunked the chair down by the blue screen(or whatever colour they were using) and forgot to put in the digital walls. The whole thing was just annoying to look at and I would say it took me out of the moment but I found it hard to get into the moment with either of the new movies.
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