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Author Topic: Rey Is Not An Accurate Star Wars Character  (Read 6252 times)
ElvenSkywalker83
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« on: November 20, 2019, 02:12:36 PM »

Now I know that some people love Rey, and if you're one of them then good for you. But I have a different opinion on her, and this is me just laying down some Star Wars facts.

With that out of the way, every Star Wars fan knows The Empire Strikes Back, and there are probably zero fans who hate it. The movie pushed the bounds, it built upon A New Hope, it showed us amazing cinematography that had aged beautifully throughout the years, it showed us Luke Skywalker officially training and honing his skills with the teachings of a tiny, but powerful Jedi Master. It showed us one of the most iconic love stories ever told, it made Vader even more scary than he already was. Boba Fett was a badarse. It also went way dark with literally everything that happens in the third act. We hate Lando only to love him when he makes the right decision to help Leia and Chewie. We are heartbroken when Han is taken away, and then I'm sure everyone is left in a state of shock when Vader lays down the cold hard truth after chopping Luke's hand off. It is arguably, the best Star Wars film when it comes to being a fan favorite. (I personally think Return Of The Jedi was the best).
But let's get to my point. During TESB Luke is doing some physical training with Yoda on his back. Yoda tells Luke to run, to use the Force. But then he tells Luke to be wary of something else. Of anger, fear, aggression. They are the Dark Side. Luke asks if the Dark Side is stronger and Yoda quickly tells him it is not, just easier and more seductive.

Guess who's had the quick and easy path throughout her two movies and collection of comics. Let me spoil it for you. Rey.

She beat Kylo Ren when he tried to find the map in her head. She beat him again when they fought. She taught herself to wield a lightsaber, when her skills in fighting should be limited to fighting talentless thugs. She is drawn to the Dark Side within the island yet is never tempted by the Dark Side itself the way Luke was tested when he went into the cave on Dagobah. Luke drew his weapon first, killed Vader, and saw himself as Vader, saw what was a possible future where he becomes what Vader is if he stays on a path of anger towards Vader for killing his father and Obi-Wan, though Luke would not realize this until ROTJ, and later draw a comparison between the vision and the time when he fought C'baoth's Luuke clone.

Rey is red hot angry at Kylo Ren for killing Han, yet that anger was never played on and instead simmered down within a week while they Force Skyped each other. Rey while in that weird cave, sees nothing but herself. She doesn't learn anything besides the fact that she is alone and has no parents. "She is her own baby mama." in the words of parody Picard.
She goes back for Ben, thinking there is good in him, when it took a good year for Luke to realize there was good in his father still and made the decision to try to save Anakin. Yet after a week at best, Rey is ready to forgive Kylo for kidnapping and torturing her, killing Han (who by the way is Kylo's father who just wanted Ben to come home) and almost killing her first ever best friend Finn.

She fought off Jedi killing guards when Jake Skywalker never even trained her in the Jedi art of saber combat, she was even able to defeat her opponents while Kylo Ren clumsily struggled through the ending and was almost killed. And then of course, the Force tug of war. And after all that crazy, Rey is fine. She's in the Millennium Falcon's gunner position whooping and grinning while shooting down TIE fighters as if the experience with Kylo Ren and Snoke never happened. As if she hadn't just accepted the fact that her parents never loved her and that, according to the guy she just decided to save called her 'nothing' and 'no one'. That should've been crazy traumatic.

After Luke's traumatic experience he's broken down, feverish and emotionally numb. Even in the book he gives up hope when the Falcon's hyperdrive doesn't work. He's not helping at all with the escape. He's far too busy being a human being with actual emotional depth.

Rey, goes on to help the dozen or so Resistance fighters and uses the Force to lift a hundred boulders out of their path. All the while a confused expression morphing into a smile on her face when Finn appears.
Anakin did not grin and easily tame The Children on Mortis.
Yoda struggled to lift a big cylinder that was going to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Galen Marek struggled greatly to get that Star Destroyer's engines killed just so gravity could take the destroyer down.
And let's not forget that in the novels for the Sequels Rey literally downloaded Kylo Ren's training when she pushed him out of her head, and later again downloaded his training when they touched hands during a Force Skype call.

Rey is going down a very quick and easy path to power, yet hasn't been truly tempted to become evil. Even when Kylo Ren offers his hand, Rey doesn't even hesitate to start begging for him to turn away from all that and come with her. And when he refuses, she takes a breath and abruptly goes for the lightsaber.

Maybe The Rise Of Skywalker can fix this problem, but we were already teased with Dark Rey in the TLJ trailer and that was total trickery. So for now and probably forever, Rey does not belong in the Star Wars universe as an accurate character and Force User. She's Kathleen Kennedy's fanfiction character and Mary Sue at best.

May the Force be with you.
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 06:51:06 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2019, 06:08:36 AM »

Now I know that some people love Rey, and if you're one of them then good for you. But I have a different opinion on her, and this is me just laying down some Star Wars facts.

Ok, I'm pretty much obligated to take up a contrary position, based on our past discussions. First off, I don't "love" Rey, although apparently I have different issues with her than most other people.

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With that out of the way, every Star Wars fan knows The Empire Strikes Back, and there are probably zero fans who hate it. The movie pushed the bounds, it built upon A New Hope, it showed us amazing cinematography that had aged beautifully throughout the years, it showed us Luke Skywalker officially training and honing his skills with the teachings of a tiny, but powerful Jedi Master. It showed us one of the most iconic love stories ever told, it made Vader even more scary than he already was. Boba Fett was a badarse. It also went way dark with literally everything that happens in the third act. We hate Lando only to love him when he makes the right decision to help Leia and Chewie. We are heartbroken when Han is taken away, and then I'm sure everyone is left in a state of shock when Vader lays down the cold hard truth after chopping Luke's hand off. It is arguably, the best Star Wars film when it comes to being a fan favorite. (I personally think Return Of The Jedi was the best).
But let's get to my point. During TESB Luke is doing some physical training with Yoda on his back. Yoda tells Luke to run, to use the Force. But then he tells Luke to be wary of something else. Of anger, fear, aggression. They are the Dark Side. Luke asks if the Dark Side is stronger and Yoda quickly tells him it is not, just easier and more seductive.

I think Yoda may have a bit of a biased opinion here. And I'm going to say that the Dark side is only easier and more seductive if you've already been trained in the force (Dooku and Anakin come to mind). But I'm going to say that pretty much no Sith from Darth Bane on through Darth Maul would say that their training was "easy" by any stretch of the imagination. Or if it is "easier," it's because the Sith want power more, and so they work harder to get it.

Also, as far as training time goes, the best estimates I found for how long Luke's training with Yoda lasted is somewhere between 1-3 weeks. The longest estimate I found was 3 months, and that was really pushing it. In any event, still a much shorter amount of training than the lifetime of training, starting at a VERY young age, that most jedi in the Republic era had. (Here's a link to the best answers I found on the Luke/Yoda training question. https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/13776/how-long-was-luke-skywalkers-training-with-yoda )

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Guess who's had the quick and easy path throughout her two movies and collection of comics. Let me spoil it for you. Rey.

She beat Kylo Ren when he tried to find the map in her head. She beat him again when they fought. She taught herself to wield a lightsaber, when her skills in fighting should be limited to fighting talentless thugs.
Her lightsaber skills are abysmal. I'm not sure why anyone is really surprised that she could beat Kylo in combat though, since his skills aren't much better. For that matter, Luke was never really formally trained in lightsaber combat, he merely mirrored his father in combat by instinct. Rey at least has some martial weapons experience beating up talentless thugs.

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She is drawn to the Dark Side within the island yet is never tempted by the Dark Side itself the way Luke was tested when he went into the cave on Dagobah. Luke drew his weapon first, killed Vader, and saw himself as Vader, saw what was a possible future where he becomes what Vader is if he stays on a path of anger towards Vader for killing his father and Obi-Wan, though Luke would not realize this until ROTJ, and later draw a comparison between the vision and the time when he fought C'baoth's Luuke clone.

Good explanation of the scene in the tree, but really Lucas just wanted to foreshadow the relationship between Vader and Luke. That aside, why would she be tempted to the Dark side on the island? The tree was meant to test Luke. If I recall correctly, the traditional Jedi test that it is most similar to is to "Face the Mirror." To confront your own darkness and overcome it. The island just had a hole in it. There's nothing for the Dark side to tempt her with or to.

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Rey is red hot angry at Kylo Ren for killing Han, yet that anger was never played on and instead simmered down within a week while they Force Skyped each other. Rey while in that weird cave, sees nothing but herself. She doesn't learn anything besides the fact that she is alone and has no parents. "She is her own baby mama." in the words of parody Picard.
There's a theory on this that she sees only herself because she's a clone. She literally has no parents.

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She goes back for Ben, thinking there is good in him, when it took a good year for Luke to realize there was good in his father still and made the decision to try to save Anakin. Yet after a week at best, Rey is ready to forgive Kylo for kidnapping and torturing her, killing Han (who by the way is Kylo's father who just wanted Ben to come home) and almost killing her first ever best friend Finn.

Trying to redeem someone, to save them, to prevent them from killing anyone else that you happen to be friends with, does not require you to forgive them for things they've already done. To stay in universe for a moment, I'm pretty sure Revan was not forgiven for the things he did as a Sith, but he was brought back to the light none the less. The jedi wanted him to come back to the light. Leah never forgave Vader for blowing up Aalderan (among other things), but I'm pretty sure she was still happy that Luke managed to bring him back to the light. Saving and forgiving do not necessarily relate.

Quote
She fought off Jedi killing guards when Luke Skywalker never even trained her in the Jedi art of saber combat, she was even able to defeat her opponents while Kylo Ren clumsily struggled through the ending and was almost killed. And then of course, the Force tug of war. And after all that crazy, Rey is fine.

Like I already said, both her and Kylo's lightsaber skills are poor at best. She at least has what I guess are the equivalent of street fighting skills. And she improvises well, probably partially due to not being locked in any type of formal training.

Quote
She's in the Millennium Falcon's gunner position whooping and grinning while shooting down TIE fighters as if the experience with Kylo Ren and Snoke never happened. As if she hadn't just accepted the fact that her parents never loved her and that, according to the guy she just decided to save, called her 'nothing' and 'no one'. That should've been crazy traumatic.

Ok, here I have to take serious exception at your definition of "traumatic." I doubt Kylo has any idea what her parents (if she had any) thought of her, and is merely trying to get her to join him. She refers to herself as "no one" I don't know how many times over the course of the two movies, so telling her that other people see her as she sees herself isn't all that "traumatic." Like she said, she's trying to find her place in everything.

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After Luke's traumatic experience he's broken down, feverish and emotionally numb. Even in the book he gives up hope when the Falcon's hyperdrive doesn't work. He's not helping at all with the escape. He's far too busy being a human being with actual emotional depth.

Yes, having your hand cut off, finding out your father is possibly the greatest monster in the galaxy, and that your mentor lied to you about your father being "dead" might make you broken down, feverish, and emotionally numb. Oh yeah, and hanging upside down with the very real possibility of falling into a gas giant planet that has some really wacked out things living in it's atmosphere might have an effect on your physical and mental wellbeing. Somehow, I think that anyone would be in worse shape after that than just having someone tell you "hey, you're a nobody" and not causing a bit of bodily harm to you. I'm willing to bet Luke would have been pretty much fine if Vader had just pushed him down and called him names too.


Rey, goes on to help the dozen or so Resistance fighters and uses the Force to lift a hundred boulders out of their path. All the while a confused expression morphing into a smile on her face when Finn appears. - Well, she just proved Luke wrong about the Force being used to lift rocks (I don't think there were hundreds of them by any stretch). And her best-est new friend is still alive and she last time she saw him he was in a medical capsule, so yes, she might be a bit happy.

Anakin did not grin and easily tame The Children on Mortis. - How the F can you compare moving rocks to subjugating the living embodiment of the light and Dark sides of the Force? No S he wasn't grinning. That actually took some effort. Like, a lot of effort, especially since the life of your Padawan and best~ish friend hang in the balance.

Yoda struggled to lift a big cylinder that was going to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. - Again, life or death situation after a fairly rough duel with your former apprentice who you're unhappy about losing to the Dark side. But again, solid stone pillar probably a lot more difficult than some rocks. Although I would like to point out that if he had swung the cylinder the other way, he would have hit Dooku's ship and prevented him from escaping.

Galen Marek struggled greatly to get that Star Destroyer's engines killed just so gravity could take the destroyer down. - Don't get me started on the abomination that this is. If I had a time machine, preventing the existence of those games would be on the list of things I'd do.

And let's not forget that in the novels for the Sequels Rey literally downloaded Kylo Ren's training when she pushed him out of her head, and later again downloaded his training when they touched hands during a Force Skype call. - Great. Now she knows... um, … probably not much more than she did before that. Maybe how to Force grab a lightsaber better, and if she had the opportunity, possibly stop a blaster bolt. Not really sure what else Kylo can do... except now she probably is capable of whining more...

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Rey is going down a very quick and easy path to power, yet hasn't been truly tempted to become evil. Even when Kylo Ren offers his hand, Rey doesn't even hesitate to start begging for him to turn away from all that and come with her. And when he refuses, she takes a breath and abruptly goes for the lightsaber.
This isn't a temptation. If Kylo had said, "Join me and I'll spare your friends" that might have worked. But he was going to kill them regardless, and she knew it, so there was really no decision there.

Quote
Maybe The Rise Of Skywalker can fix this problem, but we were already teased with Dark Rey in the TLJ trailer and that was total trickery. So for now and probably forever, Rey does not belong in the Star Wars universe as an accurate character and Force User. She's Kathleen Kennedy's fanfiction character and Mary Sue at best.

May the Force be with you.

Actually, as I thought about my response to this post, it occurred to me that Rey fits perfectly in the Star Wars universe as an accurate character. She's the embodiment of exactly what a jedi is supposed to be and supposed to do. She's let go of her anger, let go of her hate, freed herself from attachment, resisted all attempts to have her join the Dark side, and just generally been a good person. Reading back through the Republic and Old Republic stories you can see it. She's the almost perfect embodiment of what the jedi strove to be. You may not recognize it now, and think she's "too perfect," because we've never really seen the jedi at their best. Only glimpses here and there, mostly though Obi Wan and a few others. But she is exactly the kind of person the jedi meant to be.

The issue with her not being tempted is interesting. It's not that she wasn't tempted, it's that Kylo tried to tempt her with the wrong things. He (as a stereotypical idiot) tried to tempt her with only things that related to her. "I can teach you." "I can help you learn about the Force." "I can help YOU." Palpatine knew how to pull people to the Dark side. "Join me, and I can help you save your wife." "What you did when your mother died was ok." He always related to what the person held as important, namely friends and family, rather than just themselves. Except he failed with Luke, probably because he tempted him with personal power and taunted him with the death of his friends. "Your friends on the forest moon are doomed." "Your fleet is doomed." "Take your father's place at my side and we will rule the galaxy." He strayed from the "let me help you help the ones you care about" message to "hey kid, want some power?" And he failed to turn Luke, just as Kylo has failed with Rey.
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2019, 08:34:21 PM »

Ok, I'm pretty much obligated to take up a contrary position, based on our past discussions. First off, I don't "love" Rey, although apparently I have different issues with her than most other people.
Yay! Debate.

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I think Yoda may have a bit of a biased opinion here. And I'm going to say that the Dark side is only easier and more seductive if you've already been trained in the force (Dooku and Anakin come to mind). But I'm going to say that pretty much no Sith from Darth Bane on through Darth Maul would say that their training was "easy" by any stretch of the imagination. Or if it is "easier," it's because the Sith want power more, and so they work harder to get it.
I think the point being made is that the Dark Side is a means to easy power. Sith training is no easy feat, but the lure to power is. And as depicted in lightly in the prequels, Anakin has always had a draw to power and control.

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Also, as far as training time goes, the best estimates I found for how long Luke's training with Yoda lasted is somewhere between 1-3 weeks. The longest estimate I found was 3 months, and that was really pushing it. In any event, still a much shorter amount of training than the lifetime of training, starting at a VERY young age, that most jedi in the Republic era had. (Here's a link to the best answers I found on the Luke/Yoda training question. https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/13776/how-long-was-luke-skywalkers-training-with-yoda )
Luke still had more training. Plus he actually did make his own saber.

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Her lightsaber skills are abysmal. I'm not sure why anyone is really surprised that she could beat Kylo in combat though, since his skills aren't much better. For that matter, Luke was never really formally trained in lightsaber combat, he merely mirrored his father in combat by instinct. Rey at least has some martial weapons experience beating up talentless thugs.
"Understatement of the millennium." But despite Kyle's shellty fight choreography, he still has more combat experience. And even if Luke wasn't that great of a combat instructor, we don't know what further combat training Emo got from Snoke. I'm fairly certain that swinging a staff around in a feral manner doesn't count as "martial weapons experience".

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Trying to redeem someone, to save them, to prevent them from killing anyone else that you happen to be friends with, does not require you to forgive them for things they've already done. To stay in universe for a moment, I'm pretty sure Revan was not forgiven for the things he did as a Sith, but he was brought back to the light none the less. The jedi wanted him to come back to the light. Leia never forgave Vader for blowing up Aalderan (among other things), but I'm pretty sure she was still happy that Luke managed to bring him back to the light. Saving and forgiving do not necessarily relate.
Correct. When Revan came back "to the light" there were many in the Republic that still feared him. The Jedi Council also highly disapproved of his marriage to Bastilla, but no one had the stones to confront him.

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Like I already said, both her and Kylo's lightsaber skills are poor at best. She at least has what I guess are the equivalent of street fighting skills. And she improvises well, probably partially due to not being locked in any type of formal training.
Or because Girl Power.

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Ok, here I have to take serious exception at your definition of "traumatic." I doubt Kylo has any idea what her parents (if she had any) thought of her, and is merely trying to get her to join him. She refers to herself as "no one" I don't know how many times over the course of the two movies, so telling her that other people see her as she sees herself isn't all that "traumatic." Like she said, she's trying to find her place in everything.

Yes, having your hand cut off, finding out your father is possibly the greatest monster in the galaxy, and that your mentor lied to you about your father being "dead" might make you broken down, feverish, and emotionally numb. Oh yeah, and hanging upside down with the very real possibility of falling into a gas giant planet that has some really wacked out things living in it's atmosphere might have an effect on your physical and mental wellbeing. Somehow, I think that anyone would be in worse shape after that than just having someone tell you "hey, you're a nobody" and not causing a bit of bodily harm to you. I'm willing to bet Luke would have been pretty much fine if Vader had just pushed him down and called him names too.
A "nobody" accepts that they have no place. With this contradiction, she denies that she truly believes she is nobody. So being told even further that she is nothing in universe and unwanted should have an emotional impact. NTM having assholes talk trash about your parents always cuts a little.

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Rey, goes on to help the dozen or so Resistance fighters and uses the Force to lift a hundred boulders out of their path. All the while a confused expression morphing into a smile on her face when Finn appears. - Well, she just proved Luke wrong about the Force being used to lift rocks (I don't think there were hundreds of them by any stretch). And her best-est new friend is still alive and she last time she saw him he was in a medical capsule, so yes, she might be a bit happy.
Luke struggled to lift a droid, a crate, and balance a stone after weeks of training. But then li'l Rey Rey lift (literally) TONS of boulders like it's nothing with her Girl Power.

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Yoda struggled to lift a big cylinder that was going to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. - Again, life or death situation after a fairly rough duel with your former apprentice who you're unhappy about losing to the Dark side. But again, solid stone pillar probably a lot more difficult than some rocks. Although I would like to point out that if he had swung the cylinder the other way, he would have hit Dooku's ship and prevented him from escaping.
The pillar thing wasn't solid or stone, but was already falling. This meant that he wasn't just picking it up, he also had to arrest its falling momentum. An object of that size isn't going to stop on a dime. But even referring to plucking the X-wing out of the muck, Yoda had centuries of training and mastery of his abilities, and it took focus for him to make lifting a ship look easy. Rey is easily moving far more weight than an X-wing, and doing it with ease AND control. It would have been far more believable had she flung them recklessly aside in order to clear the cave entrance. But no. We have to see how much more awesomely powerful she is than all the boys are.

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Galen Marek struggled greatly to get that Star Destroyer's engines killed just so gravity could take the destroyer down. - Don't get me started on the abomination that this is. If I had a time machine, preventing the existence of those games would be on the list of things I'd do.


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Actually, as I thought about my response to this post, it occurred to me that Rey fits perfectly in the Star Wars universe as an accurate character. She's the embodiment of exactly what a jedi is supposed to be and supposed to do. She's let go of her anger, let go of her hate, freed herself from attachment, resisted all attempts to have her join the Dark side, and just generally been a good person. Reading back through the Republic and Old Republic stories you can see it. She's the almost perfect embodiment of what the jedi strove to be. You may not recognize it now, and think she's "too perfect," because we've never really seen the jedi at their best. Only glimpses here and there, mostly though Obi Wan and a few others. But she is exactly the kind of person the jedi meant to be.
You're mistaken on this point. If she were truly separated from attachment, she wouldn't have any friends. But worse yet, she does all this with no training. She just does it like it's something to do. One doesn't grow up in the environment she did and turn out on upstanding person that just wants to help people and make friends and do the right thing. Her caretaker was a POS, her family abandon her, and life was dog-eat-dog. Even the great Anakin had a sore spot when it came to dealing with slavers, due to his past; and he was fully trained. Rey should be preoccupied with what is best for her and her own interests. The First Order isn't her fight, the bowling ball would have fed her well for at least a month....in fact screw that mess. "I have a messed up past and badass Force powers. Guess who's in charge NOW, Unkar Plutt."

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The issue with her not being tempted is interesting. It's not that she wasn't tempted, it's that Kylo tried to tempt her with the wrong things. He (as a stereotypical idiot) tried to tempt her with only things that related to her. "I can teach you." "I can help you learn about the Force." "I can help YOU." Palpatine knew how to pull people to the Dark side. "Join me, and I can help you save your wife." "What you did when your mother died was ok." He always related to what the person held as important, namely friends and family, rather than just themselves. Except he failed with Luke, probably because he tempted him with personal power and taunted him with the death of his friends. "Your friends on the forest moon are doomed." "Your fleet is doomed." "Take your father's place at my side and we will rule the galaxy." He strayed from the "let me help you help the ones you care about" message to "hey kid, want some power?" And he failed to turn Luke, just as Kylo has failed with Rey.
Actually, the undertones of the Emperor's methods (at least with Luke) was "You are about to completely alone. I can teach how to channel that rage into an unstoppable weapon and give you purpose." Vader's tried to persuade him through "Join me. It is the ONLY way you can save your friends."
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2019, 08:41:45 PM »

This is a fantastic debate that I--at least at the moment--don't have to time to properly respond to  Smiley

I have to say: ES, Sakura, Logos have ALL given some great critiques and opinions!

Points!
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2019, 08:55:25 PM »

For me, Rey is an "attempt" at a Star Wars character.  She hits most if not all the same marks of Luke and Anakin...but it feels rushed and hollow.   As to Kylo's Swordsmanship..... in real world terms he's actually the best of all the films.  Crazy huh.   How you ask?  Simple.  From the OT to the Prequels the Choreography has been based around "Sport" combat.  Olympic Fencing, Kendo and Wushu.  These are sports derived from Combat and in some cases utilize the flashiest of moves.  Kylo saber resembles a Longsword and whoever was the choreographer took that into consideration.  Many of Kylo's guards, stances and strikes are from Longsword combat...with flash mixed in of course.  You can easily go look up HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) instructors and almost all are in agreement that his moves looked much more like an actual fight.  This was thrown out for TLJ though.  We've become so used to the over Choreographed fights of the prequels when a bit of realisms is interjected it looks off to some.   

     
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 09:49:44 PM »

For me, Rey is an "attempt" at a Star Wars character.  She hits most if not all the same marks of Luke and Anakin...but it feels rushed and hollow.   As to Kylo's Swordsmanship..... in real world terms he's actually the best of all the films.  Crazy huh.   How you ask?  Simple.  From the OT to the Prequels the Choreography has been based around "Sport" combat.  Olympic Fencing, Kendo and Wushu.  These are sports derived from Combat and in some cases utilize the flashiest of moves.  Kylo saber resembles a Longsword and whoever was the choreographer took that into consideration.  Many of Kylo's guards, stances and strikes are from Longsword combat...with flash mixed in of course.  You can easily go look up HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) instructors and almost all are in agreement that his moves looked much more like an actual fight.  This was thrown out for TLJ though.  We've become so used to the over Choreographed fights of the prequels when a bit of realisms is interjected it looks off to some.   
   
I have the same issue with this as always. It's a weapon from another galaxy. I don't want to see "real world" fighting, I want want something made up.
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 10:27:38 PM »

The pillar thing wasn't solid or stone, but was already falling. This meant that he wasn't just picking it up, he also had to arrest its falling momentum. An object of that size isn't going to stop on a dime. But even referring to plucking the X-wing out of the muck, Yoda had centuries of training and mastery of his abilities, and it took focus for him to make lifting a ship look easy. Rey is easily moving far more weight than an X-wing, and doing it with ease AND control. It would have been far more believable had she flung them recklessly aside in order to clear the cave entrance. But no. We have to see how much more awesomely powerful she is than all the boys are.

Good discussion so far. The only thing I'm going to comment on at the moment is this. I would like to point out something that I have honestly never seen anyone talk about. When Yoda lifted the pillar or the X-Wing, they stayed steady until he let go of them. When Luke was training with Yoda and lifting rocks, they stayed mostly steady until he lost focus and dropped them. When Rey lifts the mountainside (and even before that when she is lifting all the little pebbles), they are rotating and spinning around. Yes, they themselves are not moving location wise, but they are not what I would consider controlled. They are acting as if they are still under the effect of Gravity, even though they are being suspended by the Force. It is just like a swing. While it hangs there, it is not going anywhere, but with the slightest nudge, it can be made to move. That doesn't seem like control. More like brute strength to me, which is something we have seen Rey have from the beginning. "She is untrained but stronger than she knows" - Kylo Ren. I do agree that she should have just blasted them away, but I still do not see it as being very controlled.
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2019, 10:35:21 PM »

I have the same issue with this as always. It's a weapon from another galaxy. I don't want to see "real world" fighting, I want want something made up.

The issue with that though is they are still humanoid... When looking at martial arts from the dizzying variety of cultures on earth there are of course differences..but also MANY similarities.  Because of the similarities people.  Same goes here.  Yes its a weapon from another galaxy...but one that resembles one of ours.  There will be similar usages just based on pure body mechanics.  Force abilities can and should come into play as well as the fact Lightsabers are more like Escrima sticks than swords since there is no edge.  But the over choreographed twirlies isn't the way to go.  The fight Between Malgus, Satele, Kao Cen and Vindican is (imo) the best example of what a Fight should look like.  When slowed down each strike is precise and measured but doesn't look rehearsed  (CGI I know).  Flash and Force Abilities are used but don't break up the fight.  There are a few ways this can be fixed in the films.  I implemented these when I was filming a fan film and the fights turned out great...sadly and enraging...that film never saw the light of day and no longer exists.

1.)  Start the choreography from real world (not sport) combat.  Then work the flash into more naturally....if at all.
2.)   Less cohesion in the fighting style across characters.  All the Jedi and Sith trained almost the same way.... rarely if ever did this happen..at least in Europe.  I know in Japan there were whole schools of Swordsmanship that learned the same but even then there were other schools who fought differently.
3.)    This is cross genre.   Actors need to start training in Stage combat again.  Years ago any actor worth their salt had stage combat training.  When they did a film they already had a basis to build on by the choreographer.  No actors have little to no physical training until they get a part.  Some like Hugh Jackman or Chris Hemsworth that are already very active can take to the training easily.  But other will struggle and since film makers want that famous mug on screen as much as possible. We get over flashy and over done fights that for some of us..take us right out of the film.

4.)  A biggie and again, cross genre.  GET EXPERTS IN THE WEAPON!!  Now this doesn't apply too much to lightsabers, but when I see someone in a film using a saber with rapier techniques, or Katana with King Fu moves.... or an arming sword like a katana...irritating.


Forgive the ranr,  Fight choreography in film is like science for you.
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 11:51:32 PM »

the fact Lightsabers are more like Escrima sticks than swords since there is no edge.
Actually, technically a lightsaber blade is ALL edge, since it can cut in any direction. It's an issue I personally have when practicing with mine, as I tend to rotate them as if there was a single edge that I had to make sure was lined up correctly in order to cut.

Quote
 But the over choreographed twirlies isn't the way to go.  The fight Between Malgus, Satele, Kao Cen and Vindican is (imo) the best example of what a Fight should look like.  When slowed down each strike is precise and measured but doesn't look rehearsed  (CGI I know).  Flash and Force Abilities are used but don't break up the fight.

An excellent fight to be sure, although Malgus' battle with Ven Zallow had some excellent examples of "things not to do in a fight."

Quote
1.)  Start the choreography from real world (not sport) combat.  Then work the flash into more naturally....if at all.
2.)   Less cohesion in the fighting style across characters.  All the Jedi and Sith trained almost the same way.... rarely if ever did this happen..at least in Europe.  I know in Japan there were whole schools of Swordsmanship that learned the same but even then there were other schools who fought differently.
3.)    This is cross genre.   Actors need to start training in Stage combat again.  Years ago any actor worth their salt had stage combat training.  When they did a film they already had a basis to build on by the choreographer.  No actors have little to no physical training until they get a part.  Some like Hugh Jackman or Chris Hemsworth that are already very active can take to the training easily.  But other will struggle and since film makers want that famous mug on screen as much as possible. We get over flashy and over done fights that for some of us..take us right out of the film.
4.)  A biggie and again, cross genre.  GET EXPERTS IN THE WEAPON!!  Now this doesn't apply too much to lightsabers, but when I see someone in a film using a saber with rapier techniques, or Katana with Kung Fu moves.... or an arming sword like a katana...irritating.

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
4) Generally not as big a deal for me, but I can definitely understand it.

One HUGE thing for me in movies is that sooooo much combat is fighting for the sake of fighting, instead of fighting to end the fight (yes, I know why it's this way, so the famous good looking guy can show off his "moves" for fifteen minutes). I'm slightly disturbed to say this, but one of the best movie examples of fighting to end the fight is Blade. A lot of his fights, especially towards the end of the film, are 1-3 strikes meant to incapacitate, break bones, and just generally get his opponent out of the fight, then move on to the next opponent and repeat. Not five minutes with one guy, then five minutes with the next, and so on.

I'm at work, so I'm going to wait until I get home to respond to Logos.

This is a fantastic debate that I--at least at the moment--don't have to time to properly respond to  Smiley

I have to say: ES, Sakura, Logos have ALL given some great critiques and opinions!

Points!

Thanks. For the record, my response took several hours to think through and write out (and for at least an hour of that I was also debating with my stepson whether or not Anakin's fall to the Dark side was rational). There was a lot to respond too and this one was much more difficult than the last couple that ES83 has posted.
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2019, 01:56:30 AM »

Actually, technically a lightsaber blade is ALL edge, since it can cut in any direction. It's an issue I personally have when practicing with mine, as I tend to rotate them as if there was a single edge that I had to make sure was lined up correctly in order to cut.

An excellent fight to be sure, although Malgus' battle with Ven Zallow had some excellent examples of "things not to do in a fight."

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
4) Generally not as big a deal for me, but I can definitely understand it.

One HUGE thing for me in movies is that sooooo much combat is fighting for the sake of fighting, instead of fighting to end the fight (yes, I know why it's this way, so the famous good looking guy can show off his "moves" for fifteen minutes). I'm slightly disturbed to say this, but one of the best movie examples of fighting to end the fight is Blade. A lot of his fights, especially towards the end of the film, are 1-3 strikes meant to incapacitate, break bones, and just generally get his opponent out of the fight, then move on to the next opponent and repeat. Not five minutes with one guy, then five minutes with the next, and so on.

I'm at work, so I'm going to wait until I get home to respond to Logos.

Thanks. For the record, my response took several hours to think through and write out (and for at least an hour of that I was also debating with my stepson whether or not Anakin's fall to the Dark side was rational). There was a lot to respond too and this one was much more difficult than the last couple that ES83 has posted.


That's what I mean when I compared it to an Escrima.  Metal swords have edges and have to be held lined up with the true edge and need friction to cut and a lot of force to chop.  Lightsabers don't have to be line up and require less force to make cuts.  Its an interesting dynamic for a swordsman to think about since a lot of the physical movmenets needed for Swordsmanship are almost nulled.  Escrima is the closest I have found that could be a real world counterpart since its a rounded stick but held at the end like a sword (indeed Escrima I believe was used a practice for the short swords)...the only difference (now I may be wrong as much to my disappointment I haven't trained in escrima) since there is no cutting there is no follow through.




Yea, the fight in the temple with Zallow was a lot more flash...but it didn't irk me as much because it almost had a Wuxia feel to it....  and agreed on Blade.  His longest fight was with Frost and that makes sense because Frost was powered up at the time...
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2019, 02:56:31 AM »

Excellent analysis (first post above).

Rey is a lazy attempt by the new trilogy writers to capitalize on the legacy of Star Wars. Kennedy may be a great film producer over many great films but she will never be recognized as a Star Wars story teller. Star Wars is one that she doesn't get. This is why Rey is becoming more and more unbelievable every time I watch TLJ at home.
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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2019, 05:44:48 PM »

Good discussion so far. The only thing I'm going to comment on at the moment is this. I would like to point out something that I have honestly never seen anyone talk about. When Yoda lifted the pillar or the X-Wing, they stayed steady until he let go of them. When Luke was training with Yoda and lifting rocks, they stayed mostly steady until he lost focus and dropped them. When Rey lifts the mountainside (and even before that when she is lifting all the little pebbles), they are rotating and spinning around. Yes, they themselves are not moving location wise, but they are not what I would consider controlled. They are acting as if they are still under the effect of Gravity, even though they are being suspended by the Force. It is just like a swing. While it hangs there, it is not going anywhere, but with the slightest nudge, it can be made to move. That doesn't seem like control. More like brute strength to me, which is something we have seen Rey have from the beginning. "She is untrained but stronger than she knows" - Kylo Ren. I do agree that she should have just blasted them away, but I still do not see it as being very controlled.

I'm gonna blame that on decisions of the animators, and not get that deep into the meaning. Similar to how I don't believe that EVERY little minute change to a hilt design means the character built a new saber.

The issue with that though is they are still humanoid... When looking at martial arts from the dizzying variety of cultures on earth there are of course differences..but also MANY similarities.  Because of the similarities of people.  Same goes here.  Yes its a weapon from another galaxy...but one that resembles one of ours.  There will be similar usages just based on pure body mechanics.  Force abilities can and should come into play as well as the fact Lightsabers are more like Escrima sticks than swords since there is no edge.  But the over choreographed twirlies isn't the way to go.  The fight Between Malgus, Satele, Kao Cen and Vindican is (imo) the best example of what a Fight should look like.  When slowed down each strike is precise and measured but doesn't look rehearsed  (CGI I know).  Flash and Force Abilities are used but don't break up the fight.  There are a few ways this can be fixed in the films.  I implemented these when I was filming a fan film and the fights turned out great...sadly and enraging...that film never saw the light of day and no longer exists.

1.)  Start the choreography from real world (not sport) combat.  Then work the flash into more naturally....if at all.
2.)   Less cohesion in the fighting style across characters.  All the Jedi and Sith trained almost the same way.... rarely if ever did this happen..at least in Europe.  I know in Japan there were whole schools of Swordsmanship that learned the same but even then there were other schools who fought differently.
3.)    This is cross genre.   Actors need to start training in Stage combat again.  Years ago any actor worth their salt had stage combat training.  When they did a film they already had a basis to build on by the choreographer.  Now actors have little to no physical training until they get a part.  Some like Hugh Jackman or Chris Hemsworth that are already very active can take to the training easily, but others will struggle and since film makers want that famous mug on screen as much as possible. We get over flashy and over done fights that for some of us..take us right out of the film.

4.)  A biggie and again, cross genre.  GET EXPERTS IN THE WEAPON!!  Now this doesn't apply too much to lightsabers, but when I see someone in a film using a saber with rapier techniques, or Katana with King Fu moves.... or an arming sword like a katana...irritating.


Forgive the rant,  Fight choreography in film is like science for you.

See? Small details ARE important.

My problem with this mentality is this. Kyle was trained with a standard saber (1 blade). Then he @#$&s up his crystal utilizing a dumbass Disney technique, and now requires vents to prevent his saber from exploding. I'm dubious that he would learn an entirely different fighting style just because his weapon is messed up.

Also...


All of these are Terran design. All have symmetric double edges for cutting/slashing and tapered points for stabbing. But you can hardly say that their respective fighting styles are similar. This kinda debunks that humans in a galaxy far far away are going to have similar fighting styles just because they have identical physiology.

IMO, I actually haven't seen saber combat to what I would classify as "pinnacle" utilization of the weapon. I would love to see saber technique where the blade is equal parts offense/defense
as well as distraction.

Actually, technically a lightsaber blade is ALL edge, since it can cut in any direction.

All my agrees.

Quote
One HUGE thing for me in movies is that sooooo much combat is fighting for the sake of fighting, instead of fighting to end the fight (yes, I know why it's this way, so the famous good looking guy can show off his "moves" for fifteen minutes). I'm slightly disturbed to say this, but one of the best movie examples of fighting to end the fight is Blade. A lot of his fights, especially towards the end of the film, are 1-3 strikes meant to incapacitate, break bones, and just generally get his opponent out of the fight, then move on to the next opponent and repeat. Not five minutes with one guy, then five minutes with the next, and so on.

I always viewed the drawn out nature of a saber fight to be half flashy choreography and half each side has the ability to sense what the other is about to do. So the real trick to winning is foreseeing what your opponent WON'T see coming.

Quote
I'm at work, so I'm going to wait until I get home to respond to Logos.

Te he he


That's what I mean when I compared it to an Escrima.  Metal swords have edges and have to be held lined up with the true edge and need friction to cut and a lot of force to chop.  Lightsabers don't have to be line up and require less force to make cuts.  Its an interesting dynamic for a swordsman to think about since a lot of the physical movmenets needed for Swordsmanship are almost nulled.  Escrima is the closest I have found that could be a real world counterpart since its a rounded stick but held at the end like a sword (indeed Escrima I believe was used a practice for the short swords)...the only difference (now I may be wrong as much to my disappointment I haven't trained in escrima) since there is no cutting there is no follow through.

Again, this real world style would make a good basis, but would also have to be integrated with other styles in order to fully utilize it with this style weapon. I'm not opposed to real world techniques influencing saber styles, I just don't want to see straight outta the box styles being employed. I want to see styles that resemble something that was developed specifically to use THIS weapon.

Quote
Yea, the fight in the temple with Zallow was a lot more flash...but it didn't irk me as much because it almost had a Wuxia feel to it.... 

I kinda love that feel.

Quote
His longest fight was with Frost and that makes sense because Frost was powered up at the time...

Technically his longest fight was against Lamogra, who was significantly more powerful than the peons.

Excellent analysis (first post above).

Rey is a lazy attempt by the new trilogy writers to capitalize on the legacy of Star Wars. Kennedy may be a great film producer over many great films but she will never be recognized as a Star Wars story teller. Star Wars is one that she doesn't get. This is why Rey is becoming more and more unbelievable every time I watch TLJ at home.

Oh God. You've actually watched it more than twice?
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« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2019, 07:03:39 PM »

Ack! How did I miss THIS discussion!?

Rey is...weird for me. Where I do quite enjoy the new movies, Rey's an odd one.

FIRST i want to say these are my thoughts at the moment and since her arc is incomplete, I reserve any permanent judgements for post-RoS.

So my primary issue with Rey is actually closer to what Elven/No Kaze both touched on - I feel like she hasnt been properly tested yet. Thus far her big encounters have either been moral no-brainers, physical easy wins. In TFA Rey was able to glimpse and partially re-live Kylo's training when he was mucking around in her head, and gave her competency in combat, and ultimately used that to whup Kylo in conjunction with Kylo carrying a grievous wound for the battle. In TLJ we see her take on Praetorian guards mostly one at a time with quite a bit of difficulty, versus Kylo who takes on multiples at once (mostly) struggle free. They win that battle only through teamwork, and immediatley afterward Kylo basically tells her flat he's planning on murdering her friends. Not really an ethical challenge for the girl. Its easy to say she's overpowered or boring when she obtained secondhand training for free vicariously through Kylo, and hasnt really been tested yet. This is what I want RoS to address - I want her to be TEMPTED by the dark, and forced to fight for her life. No help, no freebies. I dont hate her character, and I'm skeptical to call her a Mary Sue since her powers do have some explanation, but her powers admittedly feel cheap on occasion.

I dont dislike Rey, but she's not a highlight for me. Hopefully RoS can give her a deserved moment to shine.
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2019, 09:23:11 PM »

Ack! How did I miss THIS discussion!?

Rey is...weird for me. Where I do quite enjoy the new movies, Rey's an odd one.

FIRST i want to say these are my thoughts at the moment and since her arc is incomplete, I reserve any permanent judgements for post-RoS.

So my primary issue with Rey is actually closer to what Elven/No Kaze both touched on - I feel like she hasnt been properly tested yet. Thus far her big encounters have either been moral no-brainers, physical easy wins. In TFA Rey was able to glimpse and partially re-live Kylo's training when he was mucking around in her head, and gave her competency in combat, and ultimately used that to whup Kylo in conjunction with Kylo carrying a grievous wound for the battle. In TLJ we see her take on Praetorian guards mostly one at a time with quite a bit of difficulty, versus Kylo who takes on multiples at once (mostly) struggle free. They win that battle only through teamwork, and immediatley afterward Kylo basically tells her flat he's planning on murdering her friends. Not really an ethical challenge for the girl. Its easy to say she's overpowered or boring when she obtained secondhand training for free vicariously through Kylo, and hasnt really been tested yet. This is what I want RoS to address - I want her to be TEMPTED by the dark, and forced to fight for her life. No help, no freebies. I dont hate her character, and I'm skeptical to call her a Mary Sue since her powers do have some explanation, but her powers admittedly feel cheap on occasion.

I dont dislike Rey, but she's not a highlight for me. Hopefully RoS can give her a deserved moment to shine.
It was simple weak and detestable story telling that she gleaned ANYTHING from Kyle's failed probe. She has 0 skill, and 0 experience with the Force. So how the hell is she supposed to resist someone who does, steal his learnin', and then instantly put it to use?
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