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Author Topic: New to Dueling with a Double-Bladed Lightsaber  (Read 9205 times)
Keevaro
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« on: March 15, 2020, 06:24:12 PM »

So I'm pretty new to Lightsaber dueling as it is, but now I have a Double-Bladed Lightsaber, and it certainly is different. I have already found a technique that I like after just one 30 minute dueling session, and that is deflecting a sweeping attack by my opponent using one end of my saber, and then coming around with the other end cutting them in half. I'm still working on the move, but it sure has been efficient. However, for the most part, I feel like I am too exposed, and my opponent keeps taking advantage of the gap presented by the hilts, as I can't really maneuver the blades to easily protect my hands/hilts.

Does anyone have any good tips for Double-Bladed Lightsabers?
Also, I'm 6'1, and I'm currently using 32" blades. I'm thinking I should get longer blades. Should I go 36" or 40"?

Also, anyone in the Boulder County area of Colorado that might like to spar sometimes?
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Racona Nova
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2020, 07:12:58 PM »

You may want to check TPLA's YouTube channel, they have much material about double-bladed saber combat....not to mention single-bladed or dual wielding saber combat.

As for the blade lengths, that depends on the hilts and the overall length of the staff. It should not exceed your height. What hilts do you have and how long is the current staff? I almost think the 32" blades should be enough for you...
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Keevaro
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2020, 11:09:06 PM »

You may want to check TPLA's YouTube channel, they have much material about double-bladed saber combat....not to mention single-bladed or dual wielding saber combat.

As for the blade lengths, that depends on the hilts and the overall length of the staff. It should not exceed your height. What hilts do you have and how long is the current staff? I almost think the 32" blades should be enough for you...

I will check them out. Thanks!

The staff consists of two Menace CE's with a quick-release coupler. The staff with the blades is already taller than I am, but I still feel like I'm not getting a good reach with it. I'm not entirely sure if this is normal. I do actually have a couple of Ultraedge Midgrade 36" blades, so I'll try those and see how it feels.
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Current Sabers:
Azure Fallen stunt, Sun Rider's Destiny, Combat Ready.
The Butcher w/Obsidian V4, Adegan Silver.
Shock LE w/Obsidian V4, Bane's Heart w/Silver FoC (Fiancé's).
Menace CE w/Diamond Controller and Recharge.
Second Menace CE w/Diamond Controller and Recharge.
(Raffle!) Guardian stunt, Fire Orange.
Crimson Empress w/Diamond Controller, Etching, and Recharge (Fiancé's).
(Ordered 5/8, Shipped 5/18) Azure Grand Master w/Obsidian V4, Recharge Port, Guardian Blue w/Arctic Blue FoC - A special B-Day present for my dad for all that he's done for me.

Sakura No Kaze
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 12:04:04 AM »

I wouldn't go longer than 36" blades (and at 6' tall, I don't go longer than 36" blades). Longer tends to limit your angles of attack since you end up hitting the ground a lot.

First tip to using a double bladed saber is to always keep it moving. Otherwise your opponent can more easily take advantage of the holes in your defense. Like where the hilt and your hands are.

First thing to remember about using a double bladed saber is that you're only using a single bladed saber with another blade on the other end. In other words, unlike using a saber in each hand, you can only attack with one blade at a time. Which means your opponent only has to know where one blade is, and he automatically knows where your other blade is. You're only real advantage here is that the human brain normally tries to track both blades even though it doesn't have to.

And once again I second what Racona says, check out the TPLA YouTube channel and site. They are not the only lightsaber group out there, but they are very good and very organized, and they have videos on everything from single saber use to double bladed saber use to safety gear to philosophies of combat.

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2020, 01:38:27 PM »

I agree with Sakura. 36" is the absolute maximum. I understand your feeling about the limited reach, but that's exactly what happens with a double-bladed saber - even with a single-bladed saber, you can have this: when you're fighting with the reverse grip. And most staffs are held with some kind of reverse grip if you analyze it in detail (look at one blade at a time and wield it - you'll clearly notice that you're using a reverse grip to move the blade). It's a totally different fighting style, and you have to adapt to it. A longer blade doesn't really compensate that.
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witcher8285
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2020, 07:46:24 PM »

Do you have any prior staff or bo training?


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Keevaro
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 02:29:15 AM »

So I've decided to stick with the 32". I would like a little more reach, but I would be compromising maneuverability with the staff if I do. I am slowly getting used to my staff, currently practicing spin-stab techniques.
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Current Sabers:
Azure Fallen stunt, Sun Rider's Destiny, Combat Ready.
The Butcher w/Obsidian V4, Adegan Silver.
Shock LE w/Obsidian V4, Bane's Heart w/Silver FoC (Fiancé's).
Menace CE w/Diamond Controller and Recharge.
Second Menace CE w/Diamond Controller and Recharge.
(Raffle!) Guardian stunt, Fire Orange.
Crimson Empress w/Diamond Controller, Etching, and Recharge (Fiancé's).
(Ordered 5/8, Shipped 5/18) Azure Grand Master w/Obsidian V4, Recharge Port, Guardian Blue w/Arctic Blue FoC - A special B-Day present for my dad for all that he's done for me.

DarthProdigal
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2020, 09:58:02 AM »

It's so easy droids will soon be able to, if they can do it then you've got this.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

TheCharlax
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2020, 07:42:47 AM »

Someone with more double-bladed experience will probably give better advice, but from what I've seen, one of the better strategies for using such a weapon is to press forward with rapid-alternating attacks: telegraph a strike with one end and when your opponent blocks it, use the other end of your weapon to strike at the area they have left exposed.  Even if they are fast enough to react and block again, your first blade will now once again be in a position to attack from an alternate angle.  Either you wear them down, or you get your hit in.  If they opt to dodge your initial attack, use the opening to follow through with a thrust (although as I understand, stabbing attacks are considered illegal in organized tournament).

Sooner or later, your opponent may wise up and begin to see the pattern in your attacks, at which point you can use feints to throw them off and trick them into leaving themselves open.
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Seclareon
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 02:57:57 AM »

So I'm pretty new to Lightsaber dueling as it is, but now I have a Double-Bladed Lightsaber, and it certainly is different. I have already found a technique that I like after just one 30 minute dueling session, and that is deflecting a sweeping attack by my opponent using one end of my saber, and then coming around with the other end cutting them in half. I'm still working on the move, but it sure has been efficient. However, for the most part, I feel like I am too exposed, and my opponent keeps taking advantage of the gap presented by the hilts, as I can't really maneuver the blades to easily protect my hands/hilts.

Does anyone have any good tips for Double-Bladed Lightsabers?
Also, I'm 6'1, and I'm currently using 32" blades. I'm thinking I should get longer blades. Should I go 36" or 40"?

Also, anyone in the Boulder County area of Colorado that might like to spar sometimes?

Im 6 2, I use 32 inch blades. I also use 2 Phantom Initiate V4 hilts with a normal coupler.

One of the things with a saber staff is using leverage, speed, and physical capacity to best your opponent. The hilt doesnt present an efficient target if its not in front of you, without your opponent committing to one side. If you have a proper stance, your opponent having committed to striking the area where your hilt is, will leave most of their body completely open. If you've ever taken martial arts, you learn to not present yourself to your opponent while standing in a normal posture. You put your dominant food forward, turn, and put your supporting foot in a comfortable position. Start with the saber staff in a traditional grip, with your hands spaced apart enough that you can leverage and quickly move the blades for attacking or defending. Have the saber angled so the blade that is closer to the opponent is able to quickly guard the upper body. You can guard the lower body with a quick rotation of the saber and wrists/arms to place the saber in the path of their strike. Use footwork and positioning to aid in your offense and defense. You have more than a saber in that situation. You have your body, and your combat area. Use those to your advantage as much as you can.

Diversion, deflection, and counter attacking are very strong suits of a saber staff. You dont have to attack first. You can let your opponent attack, let them commit to a movement, and deal with their saber and take advantage of their positioning and posture when you are comfortable doing so. You dont have to be aggressive with any saber type, if you dont want to. Your opponent will want to win, so you can use that against them where possible.

For aggressive approaches, try not to present the hilt to your opponent. Keep it off center, keep it more to the side than directly in front of you, as much as possible. Utilize leverage when blades come into contact, to throw their defense off.

Regarding the hilt issue, if the opponent aims for the hilt, then they are going to have to commit. Be faster than your opponent. Angle your blades, rotate your body, keep your footing and posture solid and try to get their blade off track, and out of range to be used to defend against a quick counter slash or thrust. Importance should be placed on efficient movements, using leverage, and allowing your opponent to extend into your part of the field, to try and attack your hilt in that case. While the hilt can be an easy target, its also a target that only occupies a small overall area. Its obvious where theyd have to strike to hit the hilt. You can control where that target is, and you can make sure its in areas you are most able to defend. Do your best to use those facts against your opponent.

It is possible you might lose to a hilt strike. Noones perfect. But practice speaks louder than words. No matter what anyone says for or against a saber staff VS a single saber, practice, find what works best for you.

First thing to remember about using a double bladed saber is that you're only using a single bladed saber with another blade on the other end. In other words, unlike using a saber in each hand, you can only attack with one blade at a time. Which means your opponent only has to know where one blade is, and he automatically knows where your other blade is. You're only real advantage here is that the human brain normally tries to track both blades even though it doesn't have to.

You can effective use both blades in the process of an attack, even if only one is going to be scoring the point. For example, you can block a strike, use that blade to leverage their blade off track, and use the other blade to score the point while they are recovering their saber and posture. I wouldnt suggest using a saber staff against someone who is dual wielding. A saber staff cannot commit to two entirely different areas at one time. So dual wielding is a clear advantage if used properly in that context.
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DarthProdigal
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 03:53:19 PM »

Someone with more double-bladed experience will probably give better advice, but from what I've seen, one of the better strategies for using such a weapon is to press forward with rapid-alternating attacks: telegraph a strike with one end and when your opponent blocks it, use the other end of your weapon to strike at the area they have left exposed.  Even if they are fast enough to react and block again, your first blade will now once again be in a position to attack from an alternate angle.  Either you wear them down, or you get your hit in.  If they opt to dodge your initial attack, use the opening to follow through with a thrust (although as I understand, stabbing attacks are considered illegal in organized tournament).

Sooner or later, your opponent may wise up and begin to see the pattern in your attacks, at which point you can use feints to throw them off and trick them into leaving themselves open.

Im 6 2, I use 32 inch blades. I also use 2 Phantom Initiate V4 hilts with a normal coupler.

One of the things with a saber staff is using leverage, speed, and physical capacity to best your opponent. The hilt doesnt present an efficient target if its not in front of you, without your opponent committing to one side. If you have a proper stance, your opponent having committed to striking the area where your hilt is, will leave most of their body completely open. If you've ever taken martial arts, you learn to not present yourself to your opponent while standing in a normal posture. You put your dominant food forward, turn, and put your supporting foot in a comfortable position. Start with the saber staff in a traditional grip, with your hands spaced apart enough that you can leverage and quickly move the blades for attacking or defending. Have the saber angled so the blade that is closer to the opponent is able to quickly guard the upper body. You can guard the lower body with a quick rotation of the saber and wrists/arms to place the saber in the path of their strike. Use footwork and positioning to aid in your offense and defense. You have more than a saber in that situation. You have your body, and your combat area. Use those to your advantage as much as you can.

Diversion, deflection, and counter attacking are very strong suits of a saber staff. You dont have to attack first. You can let your opponent attack, let them commit to a movement, and deal with their saber and take advantage of their positioning and posture when you are comfortable doing so. You dont have to be aggressive with any saber type, if you dont want to. Your opponent will want to win, so you can use that against them where possible.

For aggressive approaches, try not to present the hilt to your opponent. Keep it off center, keep it more to the side than directly in front of you, as much as possible. Utilize leverage when blades come into contact, to throw their defense off.

Regarding the hilt issue, if the opponent aims for the hilt, then they are going to have to commit. Be faster than your opponent. Angle your blades, rotate your body, keep your footing and posture solid and try to get their blade off track, and out of range to be used to defend against a quick counter slash or thrust. Importance should be placed on efficient movements, using leverage, and allowing your opponent to extend into your part of the field, to try and attack your hilt in that case. While the hilt can be an easy target, its also a target that only occupies a small overall area. Its obvious where theyd have to strike to hit the hilt. You can control where that target is, and you can make sure its in areas you are most able to defend. Do your best to use those facts against your opponent.

It is possible you might lose to a hilt strike. Noones perfect. But practice speaks louder than words. No matter what anyone says for or against a saber staff VS a single saber, practice, find what works best for you.

You can effective use both blades in the process of an attack, even if only one is going to be scoring the point. For example, you can block a strike, use that blade to leverage their blade off track, and use the other blade to score the point while they are recovering their saber and posture. I wouldnt suggest using a saber staff against someone who is dual wielding. A saber staff cannot commit to two entirely different areas at one time. So dual wielding is a clear advantage if used properly in that context.


That's all some pretty interesting and well said advice on potential tactics and strategy. IMO it's all pretty sound advice and things I think about or employ regularly, I also like that Seclareon is in my relative height to blade ratio so I can not only see where they are coming from technically but also physically/literally in execution. I also have 32" blades in a Dark Apprentice v4 staff, which I've become comfortable wielding (more or less, it is a heavy beast to use for more than 45min-hour straight but I'm working on it). I have to say what both of these speakers mentioned about reactionary blocks, parries, and counter strikes had formed much of the basis of my thought process. I'd found myself drawing on my prior training ideology and sparring experiences to be very offensive based. More flurries of attacks (as Charlax mentions), Djem So style "manhandling" in parries/redirects of an opponents blade for swift retaliation (as Seclareon highlights), or my own ways of clearing a single blade out of the way to go for quick openings. Sadly I realized that I had grown accustomed to "offense, attack tempo, and 'momentum of varied attacks' being my defense" primarily. By momentum I don't mean like the inertia or force of said attacks, so much as the "momentum of battle" like when you set the pace of combat or relentlessly break through openings without giving an opponent time to breathe/regain stability.

I took myself back to thinking more seriously on pure defense options. Practicing fundamentals of blocking all over again, even reconsidering how to achieve successive blocks while managing resulting openings better. I noticed I'd taken for granted a lot of the defensive options including many of their positive and negative attributes. Since as I mentioned, I was only blocking as necessary in the moment, on instinct, or to achieve a secondary result. More cause and effect, my opponent attacks I block/parry and counterstrike type of actions in one light. Now instead I moved more toward thoughts of "what if I don't have the ability to fight just one person at a time on only one side, or if I'm forced into a more defensive retreat by a savage or skilled nemesis?" I won't lie in saying I hadn't been thinking toward fighting multiple foes, but to be pushed on full defense was something I felt needed more serious consideration/training. Even surviving 20-30 seconds of a vicious onslaught till you can make or find a true opening can be a necessity in a vigorous spar (although in reality if you're purely defensive that long you're likely outmatched or committed to letting your opponent tire themselves out/become open).

My whole point being, Thinking which blade I'd defend with in any given moment, mixed with following options for movements with the saberstaff became intriguing in ways previously overlooked. Namely that an almost pure vertical staff block on either side of the body covers that high side and low side from attack (with this blade length) simultaneously. Though as mentioned, your hilt being open is a consideration at all times (especially if it's considered a valid target, in addition to just worrying about your fingers). Overhead blocks became the most interesting now in execution. I delved into how faulty some of the staff orientations and "hand tie ups" could become in hastily defending. In essence I'm glad I spent the time going back and readdressing basics since it cast a light on some areas for improvement and different flows through the movements.

Truly I really do want to find a great sparring partner who uses dual wielding (Jar' Kai) and a few who also use saberstaffs. To train at a full strategic disadvantage in terms of available options and more against someone who has the same options but can/will use them differently. I just find this so necessary for my own growth curve. Being pressed or backed into a corner produces greater and faster results for me more often, pure survival mentality mixed with heightened instincts in those situations I suppose. At any rate, it was a pleasure to read these postings and simply contribute my own view/experience. It's wholly that, and should be taken as such. The quest for mastery is a long and trying road, I simply seek to evolve as much as possible walking the path before my own end. For I find nothing quite like wielding a weapon with purpose. May the Force serve you well in your pursuit of excellence.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

SirLiftaLot
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 04:49:34 PM »

Some great thoughts and considerations here. I do think that the staff has the potential for offensive and defensive minded strategy. On the defensive side, in addition to having two blades to better block more attacks, you can transition from blocking to striking quickly when done right, as you don’t have to bring the lead blade all the way around again like you would have to with a single blade, but can instead only do half a rotation to strike with the back end, and then carry that momentum to bring the initial lead blade back to the lead position if necessary. I suppose as it has been said, one can take this to a more offensive approach and draw the opponent to block your lead blade with their only blade and then follow up with the trail blade. I do agree that one has to be careful at times when the hands cross each other with a staff, as a skilled opponent could try to capitalize on that opening, particularly if the transitions are done slow or predictably. Going back and looking at some of my earlier spin techniques, such as figure eights, and other people’s as well, I noted a lot of people seem to do all the spinning on the sides of the body, and then sort of drag/rotate the blade across the body, which means that when facing an opponent, none of the strikes in the spin (as a good spin can be a series of strikes building momentum, not just fancy intimidation and exhibition) can really even pose a threat to an opponent directly in front of them. So I’m making sure to bring the lead blade during the spin across the body to the front while spinning, so it essentially means that for every full cycle of movement, you have many strikes of the blades that can actually pose a threat to an opponent in front of me, essentially a series of strikes at roughly 45 degrees repeated into spins. I’m taking time to make sure that I don’t try to get too flashy in terms of speed spins and flourishes that I end up losing functionality in my movements.
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DarthProdigal
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 05:42:58 PM »

Some great thoughts and considerations here. I do think that the staff has the potential for offensive and defensive minded strategy. On the defensive side, in addition to having two blades to better block more attacks, you can transition from blocking to striking quickly when done right, as you don’t have to bring the lead blade all the way around again like you would have to with a single blade, but can instead only do half a rotation to strike with the back end, and then carry that momentum to bring the initial lead blade back to the lead position if necessary. I suppose as it has been said, one can take this to a more offensive approach and draw the opponent to block your lead blade with their only blade and then follow up with the trail blade. I do agree that one has to be careful at times when the hands cross each other with a staff, as a skilled opponent could try to capitalize on that opening, particularly if the transitions are done slow or predictably. Going back and looking at some of my earlier spin techniques, such as figure eights, and other people’s as well, I noted a lot of people seem to do all the spinning on the sides of the body, and then sort of drag/rotate the blade across the body, which means that when facing an opponent, none of the strikes in the spin (as a good spin can be a series of strikes building momentum, not just fancy intimidation and exhibition) can really even pose a threat to an opponent directly in front of them. So I’m making sure to bring the lead blade during the spin across the body to the front while spinning, so it essentially means that for every full cycle of movement, you have many strikes of the blades that can actually pose a threat to an opponent in front of me, essentially a series of strikes at roughly 45 degrees repeated into spins. I’m taking time to make sure that I don’t try to get too flashy in terms of speed spins and flourishes that I end up losing functionality in my movements.

I feel your truth in the point made toward spinning. I always viewed it from a more offensive or defensive capability than pure show. A staff just "brings more hurt" to the table with spinning potentially. That propeller blade cycle, and alternating side to side is truly a flurry of repeated attacks. I've been watching my own movements through these spins for openings an opponent might try for and trying to address gaps produced too. Repetition and predictability of movement are always their own problems, but developing a quick and shifting momentum with these "attacks" is exhilarating. It reminds me heavily of SW books about using one sequence, then breaking it off and instantly initiating a different one. Simply shifting fluidly from kata to various spins and relatively well integrated defense or attack as necessary is a fun goal. Trying to eliminate any "stopping points" and becoming like water is always a joy. Though easier said than done. I agree so whole heartedly that the simple angle shift and staff position makes what was purely visual into a full on combat motion. But I feel like trying to time which blade impacts when during these rotations will also make a lot of difference in beneficial VS potentially disastrous openings/subsequent moves. It just seems paramount that the next movement or few movements should always be in the back of your mind when using a saber staff especially. I love the challenge of it all, being so limited in gripping options and not impacting my own body throughout techniques adds such a fun undercurrent of danger/excitement. Often times I'll stop just short of "cutting a leg off" or "partial decapitation" and reorient, redirect, or alter my body position and make mental notes. Safe to say this is one of the most enjoyable weapons I've trained with ever due to that "glow stick of death" aspect. As always it's good to see your input Sir.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

Seclareon
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 11:32:47 PM »

I feel your truth in the point made toward spinning. I always viewed it from a more offensive or defensive capability than pure show. A staff just "brings more hurt" to the table with spinning potentially. That propeller blade cycle, and alternating side to side is truly a flurry of repeated attacks. I've been watching my own movements through these spins for openings an opponent might try for and trying to address gaps produced too. Repetition and predictability of movement are always their own problems, but developing a quick and shifting momentum with these "attacks" is exhilarating.

I try to keep a blade in position to defend against an attempted attack, through the process of a rotation. I tend to rotate the staff with my body and positioning in addition to the staff, rather than relying on moving the staff by itself. The more you shift position, the more the opponent has to keep watch on your movements and blades, to prepare for what you might do. Both sides have the goal to win, both sides have to pay attention. That can be a benefit as well as a liability. It all depends on your practice and skill level. Think of Jar Kai, and how you want a blade in position for defense, even while attacking, to deal with quick counter moves by your opponent. Keep your eyes on as much of your opponents upper body as you can. Watch the angle of their arms, the position of their saber. Dont be afraid to let them try to attack you and just move out of the way if you can. Only defend with your saber if you have to. This will leave both of your blades open to be used against an opponent who will have to deal with the fact they have committed to an attack or movement, without their opponents blade being engaged or in any way inhibited.

For example, when executing a deflection from a strike aimed at my head or upper body, sometimes I will rotate my torso away from the opponent, and in the process pull my back arm in and push my front arm out. Attempting to bring their saber off track, and out of play. Even if only for a split second, while I keep the down force on their blade as much as possible, to keep it out of the way for as long as possible, and turn around to use the other blade to strike at their upper body or head. You have to be quick about this. Even with normal reaction time, your opponent can attempt to free their saber and even an inefficient graze is still a point against you. The opponent is free to flail their saber out of the lock, and to attempt to score a hit even without use of any formal techniques.



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Hulk10
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2021, 10:57:59 PM »

I thought Savage using his lightsaber like a hammer was interesting.
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The old Jedi ban on marriage is unreasonable and foolish. The old dogma of both Sith and Jedi is foolish
There is no Emotion; There is Peace
There is no Ignorance; There is Knowledge
There is no Passion; There is Serenity
There is no Death; There is The FORCE

Light Side Favored.

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