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Author Topic: Vaapad/Juyo Questions  (Read 4572 times)
Nethendol
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Hi, I'm Rodney, and I am a Grey Jedi.


« on: July 11, 2020, 09:24:20 AM »

Is Vaapad more about using Djem So with Ataru, Soresu, Makashi, and Shii Cho while maintaing minimal defense and giving a lot more attack? And if so, would Juyo use Shien mainly for the Form V aspect? Plus I heard it's a lot more hybrid and a part of all forms like Form VI Niman.
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Rodney

Nethendol
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Hi, I'm Rodney, and I am a Grey Jedi.


« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2020, 09:12:25 PM »

I also think that form VII alters the moves slightly to make it more effective and seamless. Is there anyone who practices these forms on the saber forums?
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Rodney

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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2020, 09:28:49 PM »

You can ask the resident Masters (for example Master Nero Attoru) from TPLA for an "official" statement, but here's my thought of Juyo/Vapaad:

Vapaad/Juyo as Form VII are relatively new compared to the "early" ages of the Jedi Order. Both are more likely outside the actual progression, as Juyo and Vapaad heavily rely on emotions, making them very dangerous. To enemies and the user itself, as it brings you to the edge of the Dark Side. That's why it's not officially taught by the Jedi Order and that's why it's outside the other six Forms and not really comparable to them.

Form VII is all about attack, but in a different way than Ataru and Djem So/Shien. IIRC, Form VII uses staccato-like attacks, always altering the directions so that the enemy can't work out a strategy how to break through the barrage, it's almost unpredictable. And every strike is fueled by emotions, especially the emotion that is described as "accepting and actually loving the fight". Since this relies on emotions and actively attacking the enemy, you can see why the Jedi are so eager not to teach it - it's actually against the Codex.

Correct me if I'm wrong Smiley
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Sakura No Kaze
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 12:21:02 AM »

There's a great treatise on the seven forms written by one of the resident masters, and unfortunately the link to it doesn't work. I've messaged him and hopefully he will get back to me and get me a copy.

Is Vaapad more about using Djem So with Ataru, Soresu, Makashi, and Shii Cho while maintaing minimal defense and giving a lot more attack? And if so, would Juyo use Shien mainly for the Form V aspect? Plus I heard it's a lot more hybrid and a part of all forms like Form VI Niman.

The answer to all the questions asked here is "No." There's so much wrong/misunderstood here that I'm not even quite sure where to begin...

But I'll start here: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/11/15/form-vii-juyo/
and here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_VII
and here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_VII/Legends

I think the basic misunderstanding here is how the forms work. While they are built on each form before them, they are unique and independent of each other. One form doesn't use the techniques of other forms, they have their own set of unique ones. I guess another way to put it is that, in learning a form, you're learning how to learn the next form. Fundamentals, basics in footwork, movement, mentality, etc. from one form are built on in learning the next one.

You can ask the resident Masters (for example Master Nero Attoru) from TPLA for an "official" statement, but here's my thought of Juyo/Vapaad:

Vapaad/Juyo as Form VII are relatively new compared to the "early" ages of the Jedi Order. Both are more likely outside the actual progression, as Juyo and Vapaad heavily rely on emotions, making them very dangerous. To enemies and the user itself, as it brings you to the edge of the Dark Side. That's why it's not officially taught by the Jedi Order and that's why it's outside the other six Forms and not really comparable to them.

Form VII is all about attack, but in a different way than Ataru and Djem So/Shien. IIRC, Form VII uses staccato-like attacks, always altering the directions so that the enemy can't work out a strategy how to break through the barrage, it's almost unpredictable. And every strike is fueled by emotions, especially the emotion that is described as "accepting and actually loving the fight". Since this relies on emotions and actively attacking the enemy, you can see why the Jedi are so eager not to teach it - it's actually against the Codex.

Correct me if I'm wrong Smiley
That's a pretty decent summation. The only thing I would add is that, while I normally refer to Master Nero as he's probably the most active TPLA member on the site, it is (or at least was) Master Artorius who was working on developing Form VII for TPLA. But contacting Master Nero would probably be better as he's here much more often.

The only Jedi authorized to teach Vaapad was Mace Windu, and he only taught it to one student, who, depending on which lore you're reading, didn't cope too well with it. There were other Jedi with knowledge of Form VII, such as Yoda and Cin Drallig. But, as Yoda said, "Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."
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HesaHeart
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 01:05:25 AM »

In most martial arts systems their related forms are stepping stones to more advance techniques. Not all students go beyond the physical aspect of the art and there are those that embrace the mental aspects any more in this area would break forum rules. In my many years teaching i always looked for student who had a passion for the art i did not care about if they had a high physical skill if they had both that was a rare bonus  I always said " Give me a student with true passion over a passionless athlete any time "
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Nethendol
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 01:43:37 AM »

So Juyo and Vaapad are virtually the same, Vaapad was just Windu's take on the form. So I should just learn Juyo if I really want to know the form? I did find a place to learn a created version of it.
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Rodney

Nethendol
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 01:44:41 AM »

http://thenewjedaiiorder.yolasite.com/resources/lightsaber%20training%20book.pdf
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Rodney

Nethendol
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 01:45:24 AM »

I'd like to know if it is precise enough to compare to the true form.
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Rodney

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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 02:01:49 AM »

So Juyo and Vaapad are virtually the same, Vaapad was just Windu's take on the form. So I should just learn Juyo if I really want to know the form? I did find a place to learn a created version of it.


No, you need to learn Forms I - VI first. Trying to learn it without learning everything before it means that everything else can and will beat you.

If you try to take a shortcut up a mountain, you will fall off a cliff instead of making it to the top.

I'd like to know if it is precise enough to compare to the true form.


That...I....it.... there's so much there that's good entangled with so much there that would get you killed in very short order in a lightsaber/sword duel that I think it would take me months to separate it all.

And more than a few things that are flat out wrong.
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HesaHeart
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 02:14:39 AM »

Nethendol check your in box
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Sakura No Kaze
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2020, 02:15:34 AM »

Woohoo, Master Uilos came through!

Read this: https://www.terraprimelightarmory.com/terra-prime-lightsaber-academy/LightsaberAcademy/7-forms-of-lightsaber-combat-a-discourse
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Racona Nova
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2020, 11:02:05 AM »

^ Definitely this! That's essential reading for anyone who wants to start with lightsaber combat. I'd say a masterpiece of writing Tongue
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AstraVlad
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2020, 12:51:42 PM »

Oh, please. All that "forms" have sence only when discussing the lore of Star Wars Universe, they have absolutely zero sence if we speak about real combat. So if you want to do stage performace and look like some fictional characters you can absolutely read that "manuals" on the "forms of lightsaber combat" but if you want to spar and win tournaments you better froget about that fiction once and for all. Lear kenjutsu, Leightenauer or European military saber and fight.
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Racona Nova
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 09:02:58 PM »

We're not talking about real combat, we're talking about Star Wars lightsaber combat in our universe Wink And in that case, we have actual manifestations of the ideas behind any Form in RL. No one will strictly use one Form or another, it's always a mixture, but you can quickly figure out the "core" Form. But to do so (and counter it) you need to know the advantages and disadvantages of all seven Forms. And for this, Uilos' writing is good stuff for anyone who's interested in that material.
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AstraVlad
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2020, 05:06:11 PM »

We're not talking about real combat, we're talking about Star Wars lightsaber combat in our universe Wink And in that case, we have actual manifestations of the ideas behind any Form in RL. No one will strictly use one Form or another, it's always a mixture, but you can quickly figure out the "core" Form. But to do so (and counter it) you need to know the advantages and disadvantages of all seven Forms. And for this, Uilos' writing is good stuff for anyone who's interested in that material.
When I tell "real" I mean that you really want to hit your opponent with your weapon (for example, one from Ultrasabers) while he actively opposes you and tries to hit you as well. In this circumstances that "Forms" are absolute nonsence. if you'll try to use any of them against me in the tourrnament I would be absolutely happy because it will give me the easiest victory I can hope for.
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