LED Saber Safety

[Solinus]

Hey everyone... I wanted to start a topic on being safe while practicing or sparring with your saber and a partner. This can be a place where you list so many different aspects of being safe. Feel free to talk about things like:

-Protective gear that you own or recommend
-Tips on stretching to prevent injury
-What to do in case of an accident

Stuff like that. I personally do most of my practicing on my own, with the exception of my son, whom I only practice with seldomly. Many of you have posted pictures, and other references throughout the threads, and I thought this might be a great place to consolidate them!

Please post your recommendations for safety and any tips you have regarding gear, exercise, or anything else you think might help someone out. This is a great community with a wealth of knowledge and resources. Let's put it to use and help keep each other safe!!

[ice]

Before I spar, I slip a cut to length pool noodle over the end of my blade.  I found one's that fit quite snugly over a 1" thick walled blade, and don't add to much weight or slow you down to much while swinging them.  Works great.

[Manroon]

May seem obvious, but choose your marks of contact. Never aim for a place on the body that will seriously hurt your opponent, such as the head, knee, neck, etc, and only hit as hard as you need to. A hard hit on the arm or hand will hurt, but it likely won't do any lasting damage. If your opponent spins and his back is left wide open.... it's probably best to let that go just to be safe, but if you do go for the opening just hit him with a light tap. Let him know he's yours, but don't make his spine pop.

Also, don't fight in sandals. They will betray you...

[Jammo]

As Yoda says, you must learn control. I've had a number situations where I could have REALLY nailed someone, recognized it, and pulled the shot. Still stings, but I've never sent a duelist to the hospital.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Pool noodles work great. I'd love to find some translucent foam noodles.... That would be epic.

Some important places to protect

1. The eyes.
Even if you don't do face contact, it will happen eventually and it sucks. You need shatter proof glasses or goggles. Paintball masks would work really well, but they are not going to protect you from hard face shots. They will just keep your eyes from getting gouged out.

2. The fingers hands and wrists.
The most struck target in lightsaber combat. Fingers aren't hard to break, and if you catch the right nerves in the wrist, you can have a tingly wrist for weeks. Motorcycle gloves or combat gloves from any tactical provider seem to be a very good solution for this at the time. While expensive, both Motorcycle gloves, and tactical gloves are designed to protect your hands, and still allow you to grip either a handlebar, or a rifle.

Optional recommended gear

A cup... may seem like overkill, but better to air on the side of safety. Most martial arts that spar require a cup, and since we target the legs and lower body, I've seen groin shots happen, I've had them happen. A cup will prevent this from being a huge problem.

Kendo mask... Seems to be the best option out there for head protection right now. Still not rated for full force sparring with a heavy grade blade. It will protect your face pretty well from moderate dueling. An expensive purchase, to keep your face pretty.

Fencing mask, seems to be the next best thing. You can get fencing gear cheap if you get certain types. Master Nero Attoru has elaborated on this in other threads.



Mind you, none of this gear is designed for lightsaber combat. It's simply what members here and elsewhere have found to kind of work for what we're doing. This is the equivalent of using a screwdriver and a hammer as a chisel, sure it can work, but you need to be extra careful because you're using a tool outside of it's designed perimeters. If you duel the chance of injury goes up, if you're not an experienced martial artist; light contact is the best way to go. No more than 40%, and even then accidents will likely happen. You will just not be as likely to get severe injuries from dueling at this speed.

I'm not saying this to rain on any parades, I'm just saying that safety is paramount. The safest way to keep from getting injured while dueling is to not duel, or only do staged combat matches. Sparring is unpredictable and by nature, a contact sport. Football players wear a ton of safety equipment, and they still get injured.

Now some of this would be solved by training gear that is specifically designed for what we do. Which is on my table right now.

[Master Bluespike74]

I try to incorporate the rules of Kempo Sparring:

1.  If you are a beginner:  No strikes above the neck or below the waist.  No hitting to the back and no spins.
2.  If you are an intermediate:  Same as above but you can spin.
3.  If you are advanced:  Same as above but you are allowed to strike toward but never make contact with the head or neck.
4.  If you are a master:  Anything goes.

As always, wear head protection, hand protection, foot and shin protection.  Men should always wear groin protection and women should wear chest protection. 

If you feel you are getting angry or frustrated, bow out and return when you have calmed down.  If the other person is getting angry or frustrated, bow out and return when they have calmed down.

Start off slow and progress to fast.  The motto is slow leads to steady and steady leads to fast.  Accidents do happen but always take the time to prepare to protect yourself from getting hurt.

If any equipment becomes broken, replace it before proceeding.

If you are not willing to do it right, then don't.

About all that I have to add.

Blue(bacca)

[Jammo]

Weirdest thing I've ever seen was a guy take a shot to a nipple piercing...

[Manroon]

And THAT is why I am not a fan of male piercings. 

[Master Bluespike74]

Weirdest thing I've ever seen was a guy take a shot to a nipple piercing...

First, ouch on the nipple piercing.  Second, double ouch for taking a shot there.  Third, I bet it was funny to watch!

[Jammo]

Yeah, he was also rather undisciplined and broke a couple heavy grade blades that he never replaced. He's the sole person on my ban list.

[Darth Nonymous]

Thank you Solinus for this incredibly important thread.

I have to echo what Master Kane has said.

I am not a fan of foaming out the weapon, it changes the dynamics and can actually cause more mishaps than it prevents. When we used to do weapons sparing with foam swords or the like, we had way more people getting eye shots groin shots and throat shots. This is because the foam give the ILLUSION of safety. That foam can break, letting the hard thing underneath through.

The best option hands down is to armor yourself. This is how it is done in battle, this is how it is done in most military training of the past. The LED sabers do not have enough density to do huge damage to a place like your body or arm, but it still can leave a nasty bruise. The fencing mask I have been using are easily up to full contact sparring with  these weapons. I play pretty hard, and I broke a blade over my partners head last weekend. He didn't even notice until we saw the diffuser coming out the end.

I also warn people about paintball and airsoft face protection. That is really not intended for this type of use. The physics involved are way different and the hard plastic, while it won't shatter, if you use a cheaper one the mask can ride up into your face and cause some nasty cuts. This has happened to a friend of mine who decided to use that type of gear. He needed 10 stitches.

Fending or kendo masks are great. Both can easily withstand full contact with the heavy grade blades and VorNach and I have found out through use.  We are going to post a video on the gear we use soon.

HAd protection is pretty important especially when starting out. There are tons of affordable options out there, from used lacrosse or hockey gloves, armored historical fencing gloves, various armored gloves from other stick sports. Motor cross and bike gloves as well as MMA gloves I don't find helpful at all as there is no protection for direct impact with a stick. The fingers is the primary concern wit these options.

The street hock gloves we are using now are ideal. They provide great protection and are sold for under 30 bucks. I have other gloves but they are constantly out performed by these.

Pizza is here. must go eat.  I'm sure there is more to say on this topic.

[Manroon]

Master Nonymous just reminded me of a most useful trick for foam coated weapons! We did this when we used to spar with NERF swords for a short time, and it saved us from many potential injuries as well as from breaking and buying weapons all the time. Take your foam blade or blade cover, and wind it all over with clear packing tape. This prevents any tearing or ripping of the foam, and makes a sturdier, soft, barrier against any hard object within the foam (IE your blade) from coming through during prolonged use. You can still wear out your swords this way, but it will take a lot longer and I think you'll be more likely to notice before someone gets hurt rather than after. Which brings me to another great tip....

ALWAYS check your weapon over before and after you duel! This prevents injury, and on occasion may save you from losing a blade tip, having a loose blade fly off, or the lesser problems of dead batteries and such.

[Darth Nonymous]

Master Nonymous just reminded me of a most useful trick for foam coated weapons! We did this when we used to spar with NERF swords for a short time, and it saved us from many potential injuries as well as from breaking and buying weapons all the time. Take your foam blade or blade cover, and wind it all over with clear packing tape. This prevents any tearing or ripping of the foam, and makes a sturdier, soft, barrier against any hard object within the foam (IE your blade) from coming through during prolonged use. You can still wear out your swords this way, but it will take a lot longer and I think you'll be more likely to notice before someone gets hurt rather than after. Which brings me to another great tip....

ALWAYS check your weapon over before and after you duel! This prevents injury, and on occasion may save you from losing a blade tip, having a loose blade fly off, or the lesser problems of dead batteries and such.

Yes, but unfortunately it does not solve the problem of people, especially starting out, accidentally hitting someone in an unprotected face. Also packing tape will burn skin if it is dragged across the skin with sufficient force. The foam sword we used were covered in nylon to stop the hard core underneath from protruding. I have lots of friend who do Dagohir (which plays with foam padded weapons ADN  armor) and they have so many injuries, I can't even believe it. They certainly will not be playing that into their 40's

Foam also wears out and looses it's cushioning effect. I have found it to be too much trouble padding the weapon when it's cheaper easier and safer to pad yourself up. A good pad set can last you a long time, you will have to replace the foam every two or three time of full contact sparring.

Also the limiting targets, while useful, is NOT an adequate  safety measure. This is a training technique who main value is in the limiting of ones target areas for precision. Beginners do not have the control to hit specific targets and children must be carefully brought into that type of training as they do not even posses the motor skill do do it. Again, if you pad yourself, you can use many real steel or aluminum weapons without fear of debilitating injury.

 For around 100$ you can get a mask/helmet and a pair of gloves and be set. I have not found ANYTHING superior or even close to wearing protective gear. Soft weapon have been tried, the LED sabers are great because they have the same feel as metal and same flex, but no edge and less density so as not to be too dangerous.  You an then concentrate on your weapon and technique without having to alter them because you are now carrying a fat sausage instead of a saber.

We pad the kids up and have them target only the head and hands. No one get hurt and these are two targets that are day to hit without getting into trouble. As long as they have adequate head protection, they do great. When they are given more targets, or harder targets, they end up making more mistakes and thus the risk of injury is greater.

Injury prevention is my forte. I am a Corrective exercise and post rehab specialist so I get to see some pretty crazy injuries and the long term effects they have on people.

[Solinus]

The LED sabers do not have enough density to do huge damage to a place like your body or arm, but it still can leave a nasty bruise.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading once that it only take 9 lbs of pressure per square inch to break bone. I'm sure with a heavy grade blade, and enough force, you could easily break a bone.

I also believe that, for reference, nunchaku generate 90 pounds of pressure if used correctly. Imagine a heavy grade being swung and control being lost and coming in contact with your face or neck.... ouch!! 

[Manroon]

I dunno, I'm no science major or biologist, doctor, martial master, or anything like that.... and I don't weigh much either, but I've had a guy hit me hard enough to knock me 4 feet sideways and he didn't manage to break my arm. He did say if he hit me any harder he would have though, so there's that, but still. If I can be knocked that far with one punch.... not saying a blade won't break my bones, but I'm betting it would take a serious hit with some intent behind it to manage it. Again, this should not be taken as any kind of expert opinion. I dunno hardly anything about this stuff, that's just all IMHO and experience there.