Every training organization is different. In comparing my training with those from Naval, Marine, Coastie, and Flyboy, only the very basics are similar. However, since we each perform different functions, then the more advanced stuff is specific for a reason. However, it all lends itself to the same general function: Physical Fitness.
True but are we talking about novices or experts? And do we simply ignore the advances in human movement science and medical health science and treat it all as the same?
You say, Master Nonymous, that it sounds like every other workout derived from Martial Arts, but are not all workouts derived from the same general focus? Whether it is Martial Arts, Wrestling, throwing a javelin, or just running, each is designed to perform a function. The Forza workout is no different. However, it is very different from other forms of workout in that the focus in on the fitness aspect rather than the martial aspect.
Let me clarify: It is no different in that it is a workout that is simplified and put into a format where folks can follow along in a group and produce specific metabolic and medical changes that are expected of a group fitness class. The expectation is not that people do it for martial arts or technique but for exercise and fun. It is presumed to be fun because most people don't work out with swords. I do not think we can say that of this group. Like Tae Bo is to kick boxing, this is to swordplay and fitness. It is mixed for people who don't have the need for the details of the art. and Therefore will sacrifice certain things. That mauy be acceptable to any one person, but as a general rule I cannot endorse such a class for people just starting out in swordplay just as I would not recommend Tae Bo to those just starting out in kick boxing. You are getting more out of the actual practice than the popular one.
You say that muscle memory has little to do with what we are talking about here, but I disagree. Even if Forza is a fitness aspect training, it still demonstrates sound forms of movement and control. Above all else, control is the primary aspect of training when it comes to martial arts, especially when it comes to arts involving a tool such as a bokken. From personal experience, the Forza movements nearly mirror those taught in Suburi (the Aiki-ken kata).
Ok If we want to elevate the discussion to this level I can.
The issue of neuromuscular plasticity and patterning deal with far more metrics than simply the global kinematic of the joints (what it looks like). While I cannot speak to the specifics of what the woman teaches or cues in her class, I can speak well to the biomechanics involved. Meaning that the external movements of the martial arts are merely the beginning of that process. There is a repetitive nature to such methods due to the group dynamic. The technique developed for sword play and the like has relatively little to do with the type of strength and NM patterning built in these types of training. While that is great for people who need something different, or something to catch their attention, it is counterproductive to what most people who are training for swordplay want to achieve. Since the focus is on creating a challenge for the body it will necessitate a distinct neuromuscular rhythm in addition to the co-activation patterns that create those forces.
in short, the patterning "muscle memory" while being superficially similar is actually very different.
You bring up that the benefits would most benefit an “unfit and untrained individual,” but I must disagree. I must also disagree that they would get similar benefits from other workouts on the market. I have looked at about six weapon-specific sword or bokken workout routines and this one is the best, in my opinion. I am neither unfit nor untrained, but am experienced in calisthenics, resistance workouts, and weapons practice.
I of course cannot argue with your subjective experience, but statistically speaking the group this would most benefit from it and the one that is most likely being targeted is folks who don't have sword play background and just think it's a good work out.
You have background. You have technique. You have the necessary patters that can allow you to gain some benefits physically. But for those who don't doing it over and over will only strengthen the improper patterns or "muscle memory" and will inevitably bleed into the over all pattering of the body under stress.
Your categorization of the P90X program is also unfair. Anyone who has trained extensively in calisthenics knows that an hour is about the optimal timing for a workout of any kind. Any more and you become too fatigued to gain benefit (and could damage yourself), and less and you lose the endurance aspect of the training.
I need some sources on that one. I have never heard that proposed or followed in any professional setting that I have been in. There are a couple of problem I have with that assessment:
1. I does not include intensity or relative challenge. Times will differ on that alone.
2. It does not differentiate between type of work out: endurance, cardio, burst, conditioning, strength. Relative times of the work out will fluctuate based on each of those goals.
3. It does not account for recovery times. Recovery times are the most important part of fitness regimens and often ignored. Some of the strongest people in the world dont look it and will pull maybe 10 lifts in an hour. They are HUGE lifts, but not that much of them. But sometimes it lasts 15 minutes.
The fatigue that sets in is from muscle exhaustion. The soreness is from the micro tears that happen in muscles when they build. The exhaustion is from lack of endurance as it is building. The sweat is just the body cooling itself. You are correct, though, that P90X includes anti-adaptation syndrome routines by keeping things mixed up to a certain degree (muscle confusion is their name for it).
Well, this stuff actually help me show my point.
Muscle fatigue is the muscle tiring, running out of fuel components and needing to recover them. But, that does not even approach what is happening at the individual fibers let alone the sarcomeres. You are correct that as you fatigue your risk of injury rises (why recovery times are so important). But it can also be because it is being improperly loaded, isolated, or injured. It is a lot of things but none of them are good. So, when people judge workouts on their level of fatigue, it get problematic. There are so many factors that go into your experience of fatigue it is impossible to root out any one vector.
Muscle soreness: Are you talking about acute or delayed onset? There has never been a single vector identified to my knowledge. And I have looked. But one thing is for sure, the soreness is not an indication of a "good workout" or even a seemingly challenging one. It's kind of mysterious actually. My brother and I talk about that all the time.
Sweat: Yes, sweat is cooling your off or getting rid of something through the skin. It is not a good indicator of relative intensity or difficulty. Some sweat more than others, if it's hot, your sick or whatever. It just is not that great an indicator.
As for your comment that it is “effective in short bursts separated by periods of long more technical training,” I must ask what you mean. Daily training for an hour is far from a short burst. As for the long technical training, I do not know what you mean. Are you suggesting that the training should continue longer than an hour? All of my training suggests than the most you should do is no more than three hours of intense fitness training in a single day… usually separated by three to four times the amount of training time (i.e. if you work out for an hour then you should wait three to four between workouts). Then again, if you are going for contained fitness (not general fitness), you could do more, but should be under the supervision of a trained professional at all times.
What does the year look like? Does your periodization in your training go all year or week by week?
A month of including lots of intense workouts (sparring, long cycle kettle bell, and big lifts) separated by more measured training an punctuate by regular lay offs (not doing anything much). That is what I mean. If you are training for a competition or something obviously that will have an effect on the periodization.
I would also like to know what you meant by “less experienced individuals enter[ing] the market?” Tony Horton is a fully qualified personal trainer for twenty years. If you mean that the routines are set up wrongly, then I would half agree with you. A person who is unfit should not jump straight into the P90X program. I have instructed others to this effect. That is why there are other programs designed for the basic, then intermediate (I mentioned the Slim Series, then Power 90 programs).
Soccer moms, seniors, people who have never worked out in their life, people coming out of rehab, special populations, etc.
The fitness business end of things is consumer based. That's what I am reffering to.
You may see no benefit in the P90X video or others except for a regiment, but that might be all some people need. Also, your professional opinion may count to some, but not to others. Not everyone can afford a personal trainer or to attend a gym regularly at the same time (for fitness programs). My professional opinion of the material presented in Forza and P90X is very high. So high, that I often recommend P90X (or others depending on fitness level) to high school students seeking to enter the military. Not to mention, my schedule is very erratic, so much so that I use a cardio routing in the mornings, Forza in the afternoons, and P90X in the evenings (time depending, but I get at least one in a day).
Well even if my professional opinion means little to you (and it clearly does) facts are facts. And the problems I have with the program are shared by most of my colleagues who are far more schooled i these subjects than I am. And I have a lot of colleagues that swear by it. Hell I have friends that work at Beachbody who I say the same things to. Please don't take this personally, it is merely a professional opinion which is independent in it's value to on lookers.
I am a real martial artist, and I get real benefit from the Forza program. Again, you must look at your definition of what a “real martial artist” truly is. Sumo, Aikido, Gung Fu, Karate, and Boxing, are all real martial arts and gain differing benefits from differing training styles. Someone in Sumo would not get the benefit of running as a boxer might. Someone in Aikido would not get the benefit of weighted jumping training that a person in Gung Fu might. A kicking martial art would not get the same benefit in upper body training that a person with a striking art might. Just as every body is different, every art is different, as well.
Granted, but the audience here already has a sword analog to work out with. If you like it great. I still can't recommend it as a core building workout.
You are correct, that classes such as Forza are not meant to teach things. It is meant as a workout. I would no more suggest that you learn martial arts from a video as I would that you learn running from a book. So, we agree that this workout should not be used in place of forms training. You are correct that strength building and drill training are two separate things. The Forza video is not meant to replace drills, only to allow you to use your tool (saber or bokken) in building strength.
So here is where I loose you. On one hand you say the movement are almost identical in technique and form and then point to the fact they are not used to teach technique and are for a workout only. My question is, if the point of technique is to use as little energy and effort as possible, how do you accomplish that technique by trying to get the muscles to burn and all that jazz?
As a swordsman, I am impressed that a bokken can be used as a resistance tool. My Sensei’s are also impressed by it. (Is Sensei’s the proper plural?) Whether you are jaded or not, it does not negate the fitness benefits of using a resistance tool in training.
Again, I thought that why we were playing with lightsabers.
Now few things: P90X and this bokken routine are not exercises for the core. They are activities that require core and so doing them will give you some benefit. They are methods and are prepackaged. Fitness is personal (but does not require a personal trainer) nor does it require all the things that people have been told they should.
Methods are only as good as the people practicing them. I am speaking to the objective facts about how the body work only.
Yet, you have not attempted to practice with it as I have with about half-a-dozen other videos. Your opinion comes from personal bias that you have against the training style. Before passing judgment on a routine, you should at least attempt it. Without attempting it, you cannot know if it actually works or not. It is akin to turning your nose up to a new dish because you do not think it will taste good. Sampling it is the only way to find out.
Ok now you are making assumption about me and making some off handed accusations. I can support everything I say with fact and reason. I do not resort appeals to authority or bring up anecdotes. I understand that you find the systems valuable and thats great. But my personal bias does not come into it.
You do not know how many methods I have seen and tried out. We get hundreds of DVDs from all over with TONS of new workouts from all over. Most never see more than a local following, but they are plentiful and they are often very much the same. That why people buy them at such a rate.
I am sorry you think I am being biased without researching or thinking about what I say. If you can't tell that I am speaking with a little more thought then that, I don't know what more I can say.
And if you do not know kendo? If you are practicing with a lightsaber as a hobby to show off while in costume you might be unfamiliar with martial arts sword use in general. Most martial arts I know of don’t even allow weapon training until at least the third belt, so going into one to practice with their weapon drills is not very feasible. As a martial arts instructor, you may have the knowledge to perform those drills, but others do not. Personally, I do not have the slightest knowledge of Kendo drills, and I am trained in the Aikido variant of bokken use.
And these are the people I think are going to not benefit from working out in that manner before they have technique. The goals and methods are distinct and different. Again, just like Tae Bo is better for no experience and lots, people who are kind of in-between, it might create bad patterns or create new compensations.
Were you familiar with Army training and deployment training, you would know that the average PT score drops during a deployment because the tested regiment is not trained. When you are in combat, you don’t have a lot of time to do pushups, situps, and run. So the score jump of 100 points is a big deal.
So, I would respectfully ask for an apology for your statement, Master Nonymous. Thank you.
I apologize for the misunderstanding, but I do know a bit about Armed Forces training and the issues with it. I was pointing out that the example you gave is anecdotal in nature because it was not in a controlled setting. Raw scores can be changed during testing time with the use of drugs. The effects are temporary and often harmful, but the score will improve.
