The Battle of Hoth

[Vyk]

And on the X-Wing Novels.... I must correct you. Research will show that the Comics were released first, followed by the novels, then the games. The books specifically started hitting shelves in 96, while the first game was not until 98.

That's pretty impressive, then, since X-Wing won the Origins Award for Best Game of 1993.    For that matter, I feel special, since I played X-Wing in 1995, TIE Fighter in 1996 and X-Wing vs TIE Fighter in 1997.    Also, the "The World of Star Wars Novels" teaser sampler in the back of some of the pre-NJO novels released after X-Wing 1-4 leads into the Rogue Squadron teaser with the text "Inspired by X-Wing, the bestselling computer game from LucasArts Entertainment Co., this exciting series chronicles the further adventures of the most feared and fearless fighting force in the galaxy. [etc]"  (The book I used to check that was Planet of Twilight.)

Perhaps you're thinking of the Collector Series, which was released in 1998.

I like your line about Lucas being a Disney freak.    Otherwise, though, there's the problem that aside from Impstars and Executor, and as far as I can find, NO other SW ship (including the Acclamator and Venator classes) has a geodesic dome structure, nor any similar protuberance, as a shield generator.  The closest we find are the dishes on the Millennium Falcon, Corellian Corvettes, Dreadnaughts, and Radiant VII, which both look like and are typically referred to as sensor dishes.  We find no such dishes on Impstars.  (Of course, to be fair, we find no such dishes on Acclamators or Venators, either, and they must have sensors somewhere.)

Incidentally, while double-checking my statement about the Venator, I ran into an interesting comment in Ep 3 Incredible Cross-Sections.  It asserts that the class name was originally Imperator and was later changed to Imperial.  Since, AFAICT, that's the only source that deals with the early Impstars at all, I think we have to conclude that both are valid names.

[Vyk]

And I should really read the X-Wing novels at some point.

Yes, you absolutely should.  (Especially with the name RogueLeader. )  IMO they're some of the best SW novels.  The Stackpole ones are just awesome; the Allston ones are hilarious, both because of dialogue and because they remind me of a roleplaying game with experienced players.  ("You want to try WHAT?!?")

[Manroon]

^ This.

^^ Hmm.... I'll admit my initial research was quick and dirty, but everything I look up right down to the wookiee article says the game was released in 98. WAIT! I have it! You misunderstood! The game I was referring to was ROGUE SQUADRON, not X-Wing, X-Wing VS TIE Fighter, or XWA. I grant you, I've BARELY played any of X-Wing itself, though I do own a copy, I didn't find it till about the time I switched to a comp without Floppy, but I've never heard that the X-Wing novels are based off it. From my experience and research, the X-Wing Comics were released following Wedge and the Rogues. Then Novels were done off those comics, followed by the first Rogue Squadron Game in 98. I never thought about the X-Wing or X-Wing VS TIE Fighter games in my arguments. Though since I just dusted off my copy of XWA, I'll admit I had thought of that a little, but it was more background reference for me. I really lack knowledge on that game series overall. I just haven't played it enough. But I haven't found any reference to a correlation between it and the Novels online.....

Also, in an interesting twist, the dag blasted X-Wing Alliance game DOES call them Imperator Destroyers. Annoyed me to no end when I saw that crop up in game awhile ago, but I figured you'd get a kick out of picturing the look on my face when that scrolled up on my HUD.

[Vyk]

You've played XWA all the way through, correct?  The original X-Wing is good, and I recommend playing it, but XWA and TIE Fighter (preferably the Collector's CD-ROM) are both vastly superior.  If you play through the original X-Wing, re-read the novels afterward, at least 1-4; some references in them will make more sense.  (I don't actually recall if the Kalidor Crescent shows up in XWA, but AFAIK it originates in the first game; it comes up in the books at least once, when Kell Tainer earns it.)  Corran Horn in particular is often mentioned to be doing things that originate in the X-Wing game (most of them are in XWA as well).  For example, adjusting shield power forward or aft, transferring power from lasers to shields, and redirecting power to engines, along with a couple of simulation scenarios and some heroic measures because it would be suicidal for some novice Y-Wings to attack a Lancer frigate.  I think they even have things in the book like flying .3km from a bunch of incoming ships in order to inspect them.  None of those show up in the other novels, IIRC.  (The closest reference I can think of outside the X-Wing series is in one of the Original Trilogy when Han tells Chewie to angle the main deflectors; BTW, wouldn't he have thought to do that already?)

My impression from briefly playing Rogue Squadron is that it's basically X-Wing Lite.  I couldn't really get into it--I kept wanting to adjust shields and transfer power in ways that don't exist.  (Ditto for Starfighter and Jedi Starfighter, although I actually made it through both of those games; I didn't make it far in Rogue Squadron.)

Anyway, while I can't speak about the fourth step of this for sure, evidence seems to point to X-Wing (the game) leading to X-Wing (the comics) leading to X-Wing (the novels) leading to Rogue Squadron (the game).  Thinking about that makes me wish there was a Wraith Squadron game, but I can't imagine an AI amusing enough to pull it off. 

You have no idea how gratified I am to be reminded that XWA calls them Imperators.    I'm picturing you seeing that and going, "Oh, son of a..."  At least you saw it now instead of when we were all in an online game--I would've given you so much crap that we all would have gotten caught up in an argument, forgotten there were TIEs, and gotten killed.    (...and then we'd never hear the end of it from the Imp players.)

Man, we're so far afield of the original topic.  So let's get more afield!  (Hopefully a moderator doesn't wander in and lock the thread. )  I don't know if you've ever played AD&D 2nd Edition, but if you read the Complete Fighter's Handbook, you'll note that there are some surprisingly amusing comments for a game reference book.  The Complete Ninja's Handbook has a few good lines too.  If you look at who wrote them, you'll see they were written by the same person--Aaron Allston.

[Manroon]

Actually, I only played partway through XWA, then my comp crashed, and I shelved it until the conversation came up here. I've been totally addicted to it since the conversation started though, and can't hardly put it down. Last night's session was particularly interesting. My bro was watching season one of the original Dragon Ball for the first time while I was playing, so I'd be looking up in the middle of dogfighting and we'd both be busting up laughing at Roshi or Goku while I was firing at Dupes. lol

I guess it's only natural that some things would be pulled from the games for the books, considering at the time they were written, there was virtually no reference material on X-Wings or Starfighter Command outside of the game at that point. Still, things like adjusting shields fore or aft, redirecting power to lasers.... sort of widely accepted across the sci-fi genre as natural for advanced tech ships. As for some of those things not showing up in any novels outside the series, I'd say that's easy to explain. None of the novels outside the series focus very heavily on starfighters. Even novels with large space battles tend to focus on the Falcon, Luke, or Capital Ships. Take Truce At Bakura, for example. Large space battles in there, but not a lot of detail for what the Rogues are doing. The novel follows Luke, Han, Leia, and others. Sad though it is, our beloved T-65s just don't get the attention they deserve outside that series. They aren't integral enough to most of the stories to be given that level of detail, they're just given a couple quick scenes, the same as in ESB or ROTJ. They're there to accomplish a necessary action for the story. They aren't THE story. X-Wing focuses on the squadrons, so of course, it's logical for those novels to be the only ones that bring up that much detail on the fighters and how they operate.

BTW, your Han reference reminds me, if I recall, I forgot to comment in an earlier post. The Dish on top of the Falcon is supposed to be for Radio purposes, not sensors or shields. Shield generators on the falcon were, I think, in the Mandibles, and though I'm not sure where the sensors were, they were on the front of the ship and had a window to protect them. Courtship went into some detail on that.

See... for me, the reason I love Rogue Squadron so much is really just because it was the first game with X-Wings in it I could get my hands on. It got me a fighter, and that was enough. Of course, once I had that.... I naturally wanted the sequels, and for that style game, RS3 was great. Now that I've gotten a little more of a knack for the real thing, I'm absolutely in love with XWA. My word though a Wraith Squadron game would be awesome. I'd love to run the missions from Iron Fist and play pirate. Seriously, I am always looking at this model Squint on my shelf and contemplating copying a Hawk Bat paint job onto it. lol

Imperators.... yeah.... that was about the sum of my reaction. Best part was just coming in on top of me, and I hit the target select, got the thing oriented above me, and saw the tagline. It was a very annoying moment. lol Luckily, I actually survived that mission so the danged thing didn't get the best of me. You're right though, if that came up in online play, we'd have been arguing about it and gotten vaped. Would have made for epic forum lore though. XD

Mods? Where? We're aren't THAT far off topic though.... Oh, and nope, never played AD&D.

[Vyk]

My bro was watching season one of the original Dragon Ball for the first time while I was playing, so I'd be looking up in the middle of dogfighting and we'd both be busting up laughing at Roshi or Goku while I was firing at Dupes. lol

Dupes make me laugh anyway. 

BTW, your Han reference reminds me, if I recall, I forgot to comment in an earlier post. The Dish on top of the Falcon is supposed to be for Radio purposes, not sensors or shields. Shield generators on the falcon were, I think, in the Mandibles, and though I'm not sure where the sensors were, they were on the front of the ship and had a window to protect them. Courtship went into some detail on that.

I'd be very interested to know your source for that.  I can't seem to find my copy of the ROTJ novelization, but everything from Han Solo at Star's End to Heir to the Empire to both old and new Essential Guides to Vehicles and Vessels calls it a sensor dish.  Incredible Cross-Sections concurs, but also points out passive sensor arrays near the front of the mandibles.  Shield generators are slightly further back in the mandibles, as you said.

Anyway, my point about bringing up the dish is that, when we see a dish that looks like a modern-day dish used for sensors, communications, etc, we assume it's used for sensors, communications, etc.  So, when we see what looks like the radome that covers a modern-day dish used for sensors, communications, etc., it's probably a radome that covers a dish used for sensors, communications, etc., especially when there are no other candidates for that role.  (To be fair, there is what looks like another array between them; on the other hand, real-world warships have multiple arrays as well.)

Seriously, I am always looking at this model Squint on my shelf and contemplating copying a Hawk Bat paint job onto it. lol

I don't recommend the intentionally damaged-looking paint job.    I seem to remember a spider-web one that sounded fun, though.

Mods? Where? We're aren't THAT far off topic though.... Oh, and nope, never played AD&D.

EVERYBODY should play D&D!  I like second edition best, but that's because I'm old school (or just old, your choice).  I guess any table-top RPG would suffice, really.  What matters is when you've been playing with a group for a few months, and you get into a tight situation, and get to see what sort of weird crap you'll all come up with.

[kewlkev360]

Anyway, my point about bringing up the dish is that, when we see a dish that looks like a modern-day dish used for sensors, communications, etc, we assume it's used for sensors, communications, etc.  So, when we see what looks like the radome that covers a modern-day dish used for sensors, communications, etc., it's probably a radome that covers a dish used for sensors, communications, etc., especially when there are no other candidates for that role.  (To be fair, there is what looks like another array between them; on the other hand, real-world warships have multiple arrays as well.)
 

Well, considering that there are three separate theories for the domes' purpose and and evidence for each, I say we split the difference and go with wookieepedia's explanation that they are both sensors and shield generators.

[Manroon]

I could go for Kev's solution. It's as fair an answer as anything else, really, and it somewhat makes sense.

On the Dish though.... I must say drat. I hate running into conflicting canon like that. lol Though I could be completely wrong, and my copy of Courtship is at home so I can't check for certain, but I could swear I recall the passage describing the crash into the frigate as saying it was a radio dish, not something for sensors, and all the other reference to sensor damage in that book talks about the window on the mandibles. I have the New Essential Guide though, and since you mentioned it, I think I remember it being as you say (also at home).


Well, at least no matter what, we can all concur that TIEs suck. XD

[kewlkev360]

I could go for Kev's solution. It's as fair an answer as anything else, really, and it somewhat makes sense.

On the Dish though.... I must say drat. I hate running into conflicting canon like that. lol Though I could be completely wrong, and my copy of Courtship is at home so I can't check for certain, but I could swear I recall the passage describing the crash into the frigate as saying it was a radio dish, not something for sensors, and all the other reference to sensor damage in that book talks about the window on the mandibles. I have the New Essential Guide though, and since you mentioned it, I think I remember it being as you say (also at home).


Well, at least no matter what, we can all concur that TIEs suck. XD

I liked flying the Interceptor in Rogue Squadron...

But yes, overall they suck.  Give me wishbone anyday.

[Manroon]

Well, the Squint is not bad. I like the Squint and the Trip better than any other Imp craft, I can kinda respect them both. The Squint for me is somewhat like a more challenging version of the A-Wing to fly. I prefer the A, but the Squint has all the Imp targeting comps and such which make it more of a challenge, and it's even less shielded. The Trip..... well that's just the Imps learning too late what a real starfighter is. One deadly sonuvasith.

[Vyk]

But yes, overall they suck.  Give me wishbone anyday.

...not sure if serious or sarcastic...

Given the choice, I'd take a wishbone over a dupe.  On the other hand, I might take floating into a dogfight equipped only with a spacesuit and a blaster pistol over either of them.    Of course, my love for the Headhunter is a matter of record, so you should probably take my opinion (and any assertions of my sanity) with a grain of salt.

Actually, do Y-Wings ever actually accomplish anything in any of the movies?  They failed at Yavin, didn't appear in ESB, and weren't apparently involved in any of the most critical actions at Endor.  (Then again, neither were B-Wings.)  They don't fare a whole lot better in EU materials either.  In terms of effectiveness, the Rebel Alliance might as well scrap all of their Y-Wings and replace them with hot-rodded Corellian light freighters. 

I really want them to make another X-Wing-style game that includes all of the G-canon fighters to date.  We've had some prequel ships show up in console games (I recall Naboo N-1s, Delta-7 Aethersprites, and Vulture droids), but none of the new fighters seen in ROTS, and no prequel ships at all in a more "serious" game.  Some of the older X-Wing-series games invented ships to add variety, but you wouldn't even need to--use an ARC-170 instead of an R-41 Starchaser and V-Wings instead of T-Wings.  You could even keep the invented ships (and other C-canon ships) and have just fantastic variety.

I also wish that at least XWA had put in TIE shuttles and TIE boarding craft.  I can see an argument not to do it in the original X-Wing (kind of hard to differentiate one twin-hulled TIE from another when you only have a handful of polygons and no textures), but by XWA they would've been easy to model and a nice touch of movie-canon variety.  (Actually, the TIE boarding craft might've ended up on the cutting room floor--I don't recall if you see any in Devastator's hangar bay.  It's supposed to be what Vader and the 501st board Tantive IV with.)

Likelihood of them making a game like I want?  Only marginally better than my chances of being elected president this year. 

[kewlkev360]

None of fighters really accomplished anything in ANH.  It was more Luke and the Force than the X-Wing.  I always though Y-Wings were pretty cool, with X-wings as my second fave.

[Manroon]

In the Y-Wing's defense, it really isn't shown with it's full capabilities in the films. I'd say the BEST place I've seen a wishbone displayed to it's full potential is actually in Renegade Squadron. You also have to remember that the topside Turret can be swapped for Ion Cannons, which is a nice advantage for some missions. They pack a massive payload compared with the X-Wing, and they can also take one HELL of a beating.

That Tantive IV boarding bit... interesting. I always thought they tractored her into the hangar. I know they can't land something that large in there, but there is a sort of grasping arm crane thing there, and the opening in the bottom of the Destroyer is large enough, or it least it looked like it to me. I'd cite the instance in RSII where they did the same thing, but I know using a game for my source would come back to bite me with Vyk. lol

Oh, and to kinda score back on you for the beating you've been giving my knowledge in this thread.... I must point out that the Y-Wing WAS shown in ESB! It had a VERY brief appearance at the end of the movie, just before the credits, there was a couple of them flying patrol for the Rebel Fleet.

[kewlkev360]

In the Y-Wing's defense, it really isn't shown with it's full capabilities in the films. I'd say the BEST place I've seen a wishbone displayed to it's full potential is actually in Renegade Squadron. You also have to remember that the topside Turret can be swapped for Ion Cannons, which is a nice advantage for some missions. They pack a massive payload compared with the X-Wing, and they can also take one HELL of a beating.

That Tantive IV boarding bit... interesting. I always thought they tractored her into the hangar. I know they can't land something that large in there, but there is a sort of grasping arm crane thing there, and the opening in the bottom of the Destroyer is large enough, or it least it looked like it to me. I'd cite the instance in RSII where they did the same thing, but I know using a game for my source would come back to bite me with Vyk. lol

Oh, and to kinda score back on you for the beating you've been giving my knowledge in this thread.... I must point out that the Y-Wing WAS shown in ESB! It had a VERY brief appearance at the end of the movie, just before the credits, there was a couple of them flying patrol for the Rebel Fleet.

I think of the Y-Wing as the Star Wars equivalent of an A-10 Thunderbolt;  an older craft that can deliver a high payload and take serious beatings.

[Vyk]

That Tantive IV boarding bit... interesting. I always thought they tractored her into the hangar. I know they can't land something that large in there, but there is a sort of grasping arm crane thing there, and the opening in the bottom of the Destroyer is large enough, or it least it looked like it to me. I'd cite the instance in RSII where they did the same thing, but I know using a game for my source would come back to bite me with Vyk. lol

They definitely did pull her into the hangar.  I'll have to see if I can find the info about the TIE boarding craft and how it was actually used.  I feel like the sequence of events was:

• Tantive IV is disabled through some combination of well-aimed shots, luck, and sheer firepower
• Vader and the 501st use a TIE boarding craft to fly over to the starboard docking bay, blast through the hatch, and engage in a one-sided firefight with Tantive IV's crew
• The thoroughly pacified Tantive IV is pulled into Devastator's hangar
  

Wookiepedia agrees with my recollection about that sequence of events, and refers to the novelization, so I'll try to remember to check that.  (Bearing in mind that my Aeon is waiting for me at home and I expect I'm going to be fully occupied this evening. )

Oh, and to kinda score back on you for the beating you've been giving my knowledge in this thread.... I must point out that the Y-Wing WAS shown in ESB! It had a VERY brief appearance at the end of the movie, just before the credits, there was a couple of them flying patrol for the Rebel Fleet.

Son of a...     I forgot all about that scene.  I'd gone through the movie in my head and got up to rescuing Luke from the underside of Cloud City and completely forgot about the actual end of the movie.  Whoops!

One thing that I find interesting about the Y-Wing is how different its original design (in-universe) was from its appearance as the Rebel Alliance used it and as we know it from the Original Trilogy.  As was first shown in Incredible Cross-Sections and later depicted in Clone Wars (I think Anakin even flew one at one point), the Y-Wing originally was all covered up in a nice aerodynamic skin.  Over time, as they got more and more jury-rigged, the Alliance techs started just leaving most of the body panels off, and only the area around the cockpit retains its original appearance.  Add a fully-intact Y-Wing to the list of things I want to see in a new X-Wing game. 

As far as I know, the Y-Wing is the only Clone Wars-era fighter to see wide use during the Rebellion era.  That also gives you some sense of both its strengths and weaknesses.  Obviously, it's durable and versatile, so there's good motivation to keep it around.  The V-Wing and Actis seem to be long gone, presumably because they seem to be relatively high-strung one-trick ponies.  On the other hand, the Y-Wing is old.  Even if (as can be argued) the Star Wars universe is in a state of technological stagnation, 25-year-old fighters that have been deprecated by the Empire are probably not going to be in great states of repair.

Another factor could also be that it's a jack of all trades but a master of none, while TIEs and X- and A-Wings seem heavily geared toward dogfighting--it's just not designed for the Rebellion-era paradigm.  That seems particularly plausible if, as seems to be the case, it was unusual in having its own hyperdrive when it was built, while that's a common feature of Alliance craft during the Rebellion.  During the Clone Wars, just having something that could jump in with no other support, engage in combat in a variety of roles, and jump back out would be notable.  By the time of the Rebellion, it either needs to be able to maneuver like a pointer or slim, or soak up and deal out damage like a cross, and it doesn't quite manage either of those.

That brings me to another idea for a topic of discussion: which prequel-era fighters have built-in hyperdrives?