Saber Forum

I am starting a topic to discuss and compair all forms as they are published now. Idea's etc. can be put in here. In order to try and determine on which version we can all relate too. The Jedi always shared knowledge... and I feel like we could make this into a new martial art. But as always the style is broken into several masters who not always can relate that well to each other... I am not stating this is my version... it is copied from the whole community... IT IS OUR VERSION!

I know the world of martial arts. As we are basically starting this anew I will do what I can to bring all knowledge together and maybe.. maybe.. we can come with an ultimate version.

This topic is on Shii-Cho only! I will make others the same way for the other forms.



Intro Saber Safety...
What is a light saber?! That is the most important thing before starting to make one art of something build around a fictional weapon. George Lucas originally wanted to call it Laser Sword... and that is what is the basic. A high powered laser beam colored by a crystal that magically stops at the length of a blade. It has been seen melting steel doors... and cuterises wounds instantly. It does not cut everything immediatly.. but most materials like normal metal, flesh, bone, wood is no challenge.

Unlike a real laser the Light Saber is a solid form of energy. And will block other lightsabers which can result in a 'lock up'. Like electro magnetic fields it bounces off. That is also the sound it makes... an electro-magnetic humm...

This is one of the parts that makes Star Wars more a fantasy space fairy-tale then Science-Fiction. Even for Science-Fiction the Light Saber is too far impossible. Almost magic... which is the same as the power the wielder controls. The discribing of 'the Force' is exactly the same as many magicians discribe the energy that binds the universe which can be controled for magic.

Back on topic to Saber Safety... The light Saber is a dangerous object. Accidents can happen with it many times easier then with a gun. A rifle at the shooting range has safety rules all people have to abide too. A real sword has rules the wielder have to keep too in order not to cut himself. So also a light saber. I gather a youngling gets to learn to ALWAYS point the hilt into a safe direction BEFORE activating the saber!Only to activate it when needed... and de-activate it when not needed anymore.

It cannot be that this basic rule isn't implemented as a major factor in the forms! I gather it would be the beginning and the start of each form too. A greet like in fencing is not working as that holds the dangerous beam close to ones face!

A light saber form cannot have any movement incorporated at all that brings the wielder in contact with the dangerous blade.. or even too close!!! Touching the ground seems like a bad idea too. Practice rooms would soon be a mess. And the blade can cut all sides! Unlike for instance a Katana. Now with this esteblished we know what works and what not.




Form I: Shii-Cho, also known as the Determination Form. Roughly every Force User was taught this Form when first handed a lightsaber.

Shii Cho is the First Form. It is referred to as the Determination Form, or the Way of the Sarlaac. It focuses on simplistic, albeit relentless, tactics.

Shii Cho was developed as Force Users began to transition from regular swords to Lightsabers as means of melee combat (at this point, Lightsabers were bulky Siege weapons). As such, its foundations are the basics of all sword fighting, including strike zones, parries and blocks. It was a two handed form, relying on broad, sweeping motions. Masters of Shii Cho were noted as having a distinct, watery flow.

Every Jedi, and arguably every Sith (as there is overlap between the two schools) had to learn Shii Cho when they began training. In A New Hope, when Obi-Wan has Luke training on the Millennium Falcon with the Remote, that is a Shii Cho practice (it gets mirrored with the Youngling training in Episode II). It teaches body movement, where to strike, while getting used to the feeling of the weapon. At the end of the scene in A New Hope, where Luke is blindfolded, it also teaches what separates wielding a lightsaber from holding a blade: Trust in the Force.

Shii Cho was used for crowd control. Its wide, angular motions were ideal for dealing with groups as it was constantly moving forward, like a bulldozer. In this regard, the lightsaber still maintains its use as a Siege weapon. In terms of combat, it has very strong similarities with Niman, in that it covers most of its bases.

(Source: Seven Forms Of Lightsaber Combat: A Discourse By Craig Page)

General Sun of NY Jedi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La7aBRXAuPg# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La7aBRXAuPg#)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-roAXmFNhY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-roAXmFNhY#)

Lucien

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWx6a42pN9k#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWx6a42pN9k#ws)

Opening

Discussion is free.. reply to the right section!

(http://i41.tinypic.com/fthm4g.jpg)

General Sun starts with the saber on and holds it close to his face. I don't think that is a good way to handle a light saber at all! In my opinion he should hold the saber in front in a 45 degree angle... and then activate it!

Lucien does a more powerfull opening. But even though it is perfect for any sword... it doesn't fit the danger a light saber energy blade gives. He also doesn't active it. It is a great greeting but I don't think I like it in a form that is using a light saber.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/33xa8h5.jpg)(http://i41.tinypic.com/30cr9n7.jpg)

One thing I give General Sun here is that according to the canon of Star Wars Shii-Cho should be a beginners form. And I gather it consists of movements wholding the hilt with two hands. What about a greeting as follows...

Saber off...
Hold it in front with two hands at 45 degree angle...
Activate the saber...
Drop it to a straight line...
Lift it again...

Other points on the opening...

- Feet together seems perfect!
- Would a Jedi keep eye contact with oponent or bend his head in regards to the force!?


Lifting the saber again would be back to 45 degrees ofcourse... I really don't like an all-cutting energy blade an inch from my face!

Does anyone has other versions on video that can be shown here. More idea's gives better discussion.

Opening:

Yea feet together look be real nice. I would think Jedi would keep eye contact while bending. As to never loos sight or focus of the opponent. FYI All this is AWESOME Stephen. Lucien's opening looks more fencing like to me, but I like it alot. I swear I've seen Raphael do that on Soul Calibur! And then Lucien resumes a stance similar to a samurai.

But I like Stephens cuz according to the movies and what we've been able to see thus far, the 45 degree angle hold seems fitting.

This is what I would do:
Saber off...
Traditional bow...
Hold it on front at 45 degree angle...
Activate saber...

Simple, yet effective :)

I actually like this... the japanese bow would fit. As they meditate in the same way too. Hold the saber hilt to the side while doing so..?

Proper grip in Shii-Cho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SD5Ee3knco# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SD5Ee3knco#)

It is something that comes natural for most sword fighters or any with some experience. But should be mentioned here for compleness...

This here reminds me of the only good way we can simulate part of 'the force' in light saber combat. The Chi-Quon.. or... Chi-Soa on the Dragon Pole. Something I learned during Wing-Chun. I give a short movie below showing some Chi-Soa in the intro and the dragon pole in the main part of the movie.

It involves the use of the blades touching each other and feeling where the enemy puts the pressure... essentially it allows you to feel the force of the opponents attacks and therefore locate your target blindfolded. Combined with the basic movements and inituative reactions on the way a body is able to move attacks and blocks can be practiced to a level where it seems as if you know where the enemy strikes... before he knows it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ic0TosErc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ic0TosErc#)

A funny thing... Chi sounds the same as Shii... in chinese martial arts it is the energy flow in the body. An energy you can build up and use... And the force is the energy that surrounds us.

You could do this as well. I was thinking of holding your saber about 6 inches from your face, elbows slightly bent out and up, and then a simple bow following.

And to another point, Stephen, the Chi-Soa, my cousin an I practice this every time we fight with bokkens. It establishes striking distance and all the other great points that Stephen has pointed out.

Honestly, I couldn't be putting any of this together better myself :)

Wow... quite a thread you got here!  Well done Stephen.

The funny thing is, while General Sun's form is something of an "industry standard" in this hobby, I kinda like Lucien's version better.  The way he executes it is more reminiscent of kendo forms I've seen (courtesy of MAV), which is what I typically associate with Shii-Cho.

To me, both versions share similar ideas and are very representative of the ideas behind Shii-Cho.  As your quote from Uilos's guide to lightsaber combat indicates, it was developed as a crowd clearer, to address multiple foes.  This explains the wide, powerful cuts.  In addition, due to its status as a beginner's form, I always considered it "neutral" in terms of offense vs defense.  Many of the Forms cling to a specific side - Djem So, Ataru, and Juyo are VERY aggressive, while Soresu and Makashi utilize much more defense - but Shii-Cho to me is neither of these.  The center stance, blade tip pointed towards the opponent, allows for this type of balance (giving the duelist easy access to either strike or parry at a moment's notice).

More thoughts to come...

During my katana lessons we held the katana with the hand to the left hip. Taking the bow japanese fashion keeping eye contact... grabbing the hilt of the katana and holding it in front at 45 degrees.

If we do that and activate the saber... Would work for me.

It is the same as how Yoda draws his saber.. only he uses the force to bring the hilt to his hand.

General Sun is excecuting his movements in an almost meditative way.. slow and low powered. But he works all basic attacks in it.. divided in three parts so beginners can learn it easier. Will break it down to the bone here though. Evaluating every part.

I gather we might end up with a high powered longer version of Lucien's Shii-Cho. Incorporating all important parts.

I like it, and completely forgot Yoda did this! I think with form I, you want your opening to be relatively simple. That way everyone, even those with lack of coordination can follow the step by steps we create.

Can anyone find Yoda's opening stance and post if for our visual learners?  ;D

The big question is.. do we keep the greeting the same on all forms? As the only light saber greeting in the game is the fencing greeting Count Dooku does...

It is the same as Lucien does... but at least four inches away from the face straight up.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/35d3z8w.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/yfaya.jpg)

So Makashi should start like that at least.. I leave Makashi to Nero. But should we standarise the greeting?

Dooku...
- point saber 45 degrees to the side to the floor
- activate saber
- bring it straight up at least 4 inches from face
- swing it in a powerful turn down to the same stance it started

Lucien is not completely straight ... and he bends slightly during the downwards move...

(http://i44.tinypic.com/35jxpvp.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/id6b9l.jpg)

Here you go!

First move...

General Sun starts with a low powered stab forwards... while placing his left foot foreward. This can be done way more powerful though. I am ok with it being in... if we think a stab like that should have a place in Shii-Cho. It would make a good position to follow up to the next move. But it needs more power. I expect the FoC to be activated on the stab!

(http://i42.tinypic.com/zlf21t.jpg)

Lucien excecutes a twirl in here... Although that looks way cool I don't like it really. If it was up to me I would not twirl at all in Shii-Cho. It is a form where you extend your senses.. and feel your oponent. And basic... Not flashy at all.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2lsecsh.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/19xc2r.jpg)

Important note!!! General Sun is standing left foot forewards and Lucien right foot. It is important for the start of the next move...

Very nice, SS. I see what you mean, but then Yoda turns his body into the saber and takes a stance similar to a baseball player, doesn't he??


I would think once form I is established, then you could progress your greeting in a manner that suits you. Obviously we all don't practice the same style or even the same way. But I think for beginner/form I purposes, a unified greeting would be good.

That stance is used a lot in the movie. General Sun has it incorporated in Shii-Cho at one point.

Actually... this is a bit different on second glance. Lucien steps backwards with his left foot. That is why right ends up forward. If we keep teh stab from General Sun here.. I would like to keep the right foot foreward. Most people are right handed and the right foot extents more power in the stab.

Basic top > bottom strikes...

Excecuted from both sides... The big different is the start of teh move. General Sun turns the saber first over his head to bring it behind his shoulder on the other side and steps forewards with his string leg. That is probably the reason why he stabbed with his left. I would like to turn that around and do the other arm first. Lucien strikes it back and does an extra step with his right foot forewards.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/345ouh0.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/347gwzt.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2mxncpl.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/9h3omr.jpg)

The power of the first strike Lucien makes does make his first move less neet though. I am having troubles with the foot work and the start of the move.. Left or right. obviously the move is excecuted on both sides. As all moves should be.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/352i6vs.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/261yw4z.jpg)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/25g6rrm.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/nde8x.jpg)

If i'm thinking about this correctly, then whatever side you end on should be the leg you stepped with. Because stepping into the swing obviously creates more power and makes you much tougher to off-balance.


Start with your more comfortable side until it becomes a natural flow, then progress. Since this is a new process for most, we will have to take baby steps so everyone is on board.

Also...

General Sun's video is nice, but he seems very robotic to me. And I realize he's doing a step by step, but ask anyone who's ever studied some form of martial arts, when they teach you a move, they teach you to stay loose. I know that this can tend to happen when you repeatidly do routines over and over again, but if you relax, the movements will look better and your reaction time will increase.

Wow a really good dissection of both sequences. So you know my lightsaber was incapable of being turned on as it's damaged at the moment lol.

I'm actually going to re do these and make them with full speed versions, and step by step versions.

All in all though I like the critiques.

Also the way I am doing the forms so that each form has its own salute and opening stance

Then can I suggest the japanese salute for Shii-Cho... and the fence salute for Makashi?

I asked Nero to build us a Makashi form... His expertise is the best in that area.

I like your movements, Lucien. Yours weren't as rigid as Sun's. But I like establishing a salute and stance for every form. Only makes perfect sense :)


This is nice and easy to remember. We don't want the stance to look like Goku charging up his kamaya-maya and it takes a whole episode to achieve such a feat lol.

I'm so ready for you to create those vids,  i really need some more info to base my Djem So off of (ive only had Anakin from EpIII as an example)

Wow, this is all beautiful.

Someone had mentioned that Sun's Shii Cho is slow, almost meditative. This is correct. This is a Kata, a sword form that is used as both an instructional and meditative tool.

For the Form in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0OLlYLB2fA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0OLlYLB2fA#)

I had made a comment about it seeming robotic, but this could all be because I mediate at a faster pace. There's nothing wrong with Sun's demonstration by any regards. I guess it all depends on the person. As long as we can get down the basics for form I, that's all that matters.


I am excited for us to get here!

http://lightsaber_combat.webs.com/formishiicho.htm (http://lightsaber_combat.webs.com/formishiicho.htm)

I would recommend this site for another reference in your lightsaber adventures :D

Especially with shii-cho (My preferred form), I really enjoy the writing of the parries and attacks. Really useful!

Enjoy!

-Keiwanis

Sun is very impressive in his movements, I like his technique. HOWEVER, I noticed he tends to overextend himself to the point of almost falling forward. Something my teacher taught me when I began learning how
to use a sword, and something I ingrain into my students, is while you want to commit to a strike you don't want to over extend yourself and leave yourself open like that. Now I realize with saber combat it's a little
different than using a katana in my regards, but overextending one's self into any technique can and usually does have dangerous consequences. Other than that I think his skills are impressive...MOST impressive.

Thanks for that video Uilos, it was great to see the other side of his form - the application!  Something I noticed about General Sun's kata was that it was very, VERY deliberate and clean.  I'm sure in his development of it he practiced the moves quite a bit, so I'm not terribly surprised, but it was neat to see that kind of technique.  I like how basic but effective that form is... my only issue with it is the squaring of the shoulders during the thrust.  I've never really seen the practical sense in that, especially being as bringing one's feet together gives the opportunity for imbalance, but that's just me.

The salute is just something you throw in there for extra flair... it was done in the movie by Dooku to emphasize his aristocratic, duelist style of combat.  It's something that would likely be implemented if this were to be made into a sport (as it is in fencing - where you salute your opponent, the director, and the audience).  For "real" saber combat (in the SW universe), however, it's not exactly practical.

Great discussion... and as with everything, it is perfect to begin at the beginning, with the first step...  :)

I concur that neither of these greetings are quite appropriate for either lightsabre usage/training, or for the monastic way Jedi are portrayed.  General Sun’s greeting blocks line of sight, an odd way to start a form (or a duel, for that matter), and then there’s that “I cut my nose off in a training accident” thing. :P  Lucien’s is pretty formal, which I do prefer, yet is not quite reverent enough (of course, that’s our human culture speaking... )

Overall I think the salute should/would be performed with the blade off.  The salute is a formal part of the training, both for readying yourself, as well as for showing respect to your dueling partner and to the Jedi lineage who has trained you to this point.  Secondly, activating your blade is a key component in actual combat usage.  Learning to handle the activation while making a movement would be crucial should harm come suddenly your way.  Therefore I say that the salute is done weapon off, you would ready yourself, and then as part of the opening movement of the form activate the blade, likely going into a ready or guard position.

Two potential salutes I think work well for this would be traditional Shaolin and martial salutes.  One is simply holding the weapon at your side, while saluting one handedly: 

(https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1psDvwizSnpgKDKOGD-LEbQPzWzxTbWv-mD2-HsNQ0A7WKvd15OiA91hG89zCMyUNZJ3ATAcbwTiP3VmeXfUIoGw/sabre%20salute%201.jpg?psid=1)

(insert great story about the Jedi master who had lost and arm and the salute became one handed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazu_Huike) in his honour...)

Or with both hands:

(https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pZ247H35LM0Pe-CUXWHWq9t2oljyCYEVFVh5FvvX1ZRueibVU32keQlxGY5oId6lOv8lvR5gHSy7FYzAt3N7GuQ/sabre%20salute%202.jpg?psid=1)

I like this second one more.  Begin at loose attention.  You salute, displaying the weapon.  Return the weapon to your side, feet together at the ready, and then start the form with a burst of motion and activation of the blade.   It would have a nice coupling at the end of the form, deactivating the blade into the salute, then back to attention. 

More in a moment...

peace,

Kannik

Thank you Stephen for starting this topic!  It’s very timely as I am beginning to put together various things to develop a training regimen with the potential of starting up a Sabre Club/Jedi Academy in my area.  :D  Delving into things is just perfect.  Love what everyone’s been saying here so far, hopefully I can add something to this. 

I don’t know where to start.  :P

If Shii-Cho is intended to teach beginners, I would think that it may actually have several sections, each one getting progressively more involved and build on the previous sections.  This would  allow the initiate to learn the basics of any martial style (balance, movement, stances, basic techniques), adding to it as  they progressed and were ready for the next section.  Form I may be one of the longest forms just because of this reason -- though only the masters of the style may know the entire form.  It may start two handed to help teach precision and control, yet switch to single handed later on as those are mastered.

Also, Shii-cho is a combat style, primarily suited to (if I read everything correctly) be used on non-sabre equipped adversaries.  Hmm, a quick aside:

(As a weapon with, effectively, an infinitely sharp blade, lightsabres are interesting in that they don’t need much power behind contact to cause damage, unless you are against one of the few materials/objects that are resistant to the blade.  Thus I see sabre forms (or specific moves within a form) being split into three categories in their purpose/intention:  for use against unarmoured targets, for use against other sabre weilders, and for use against shielded/armoured targets.)

Here, what’s the most important is big, sweeping and, most importantly, continuous motion.  The sabre should swing in wide, covering arcs, momentum carried through each strike into the next unless returning to a guard position.  (later, this concept is applied to blaster bolt deflections, and modified into more aggressive sabre-on-sabre fighting styles). 

Taking the above all together, Shii-Cho I think would start off with some very basic accuracy and coordination based drills, coupled with some basic movements from stance to stance, and things to train balance.  Quickly, though, the concepts of continuous striking would be added in, and momentum maintained.  What is shown on the linked videos I think would only be similar to the first section of Shii-Cho.... not the whole form.  :)   

As another aside, about spins:  while they may seem flashy they are actually quite effective low-strike deflection moves, especially when your weapon can cut everyone else’s.  :P  Spinning, besides looking cool, is way to train weapon control and especially comfort, so I see it as valid being in the form.

As a third aside, and for transparency’s sake so you know where I’m coming from I’ve been training traditional Chinese martial arts for about 11.5 years now, so my thoughts will come from the principles of those styles, and thus have a distinctly Chinese accent to them... ;)

Gotta run for the moment, looking forward to more,

Peace,

Kannik

I myself come from the chinese Kung-fu training... but as Lucas described the Jedi as a combination of Samurai and western monks I would steer away from the chinese greetings/salutes and place a japanese one here. I do agree on the weapon off in greeting for all reasons you give.

Japanese would be...

- hilt emitter pointed down on the left hip hold there by left hand. Right hand on right hip...
- bow keeping eye contact...
- grab hilt in 45 degrees in front of you...
- Activate...

For what is worth, the guard in Shii-Cho as it is taught here is more or less like this: sword in both hands in front of the pelvis, right hand on saber pivot, left hand behind; tip of the blade toward opponent's face; legs slightly bent, left foot forward, right foot backward tilted 45° (feet can be inverted). There is also a guard with the saber held at eye level and pointed forward, but that's more of a stance that you can assume after trading blows than a starting position.

The style resembles kendo, but the feet move differently and but low attacks are used much more frequently; there are NO thrusts which are strictly forbidden.

That guard stance sounds much like the guard stance I use in Shii-Cho as well... the standard center stance of kendo.  It's a perfect "middle of the road" position, where both parries and attacks can be executed easily.

The thrusts make total sense too, since they can be VERY dangerous with these sabers.  That's a topic that's been discussed a couple times around here, and even a fencer like myself tries to cut back (forgive the pun) on my thrusting.

Just got my saber in yesterday, and went ahead and practiced the 1st part of Shii-Cho. I just watched General Sun's 1st video and went and practiced it. Then I made it more of a challenge by going up and down a hill with uneven spots all around. I also would run about 15ft then go straight into the move set! After about 45 minutes I was feeling really good with a nice sweat going on lol. Lots of fun, and look forward to other 6 forms!

So... what would you think of doing this part like this?

- feet together
- hilt emitter pointed down on the left hip hold there by left hand. Right hand on right hip...
- bow keeping eye contact...
- grab hilt in 45 degrees in front of you...
- Activate...

- right foot to the right forming a comfortable solid stance
- knees slightly bend
- blade 45 degrees in front pointed to opponents face

- left foot foreward
- straight trust to target (not horizontal but in the direction of the blade)

- right arm bends holding the saber straight up to the right shoulder (check Yoda)

- right foot foreward
- strike top right to lower left
- stop blade controlled on 'almost' straight right arm (don't over reach)
- bring blade straight up to left shoulder, left arm bend

- left foot foreward
- strike top left to lower right
- stop blade controlled on 'almost' straight right arm (don't over reach)
- bring blade straight up to right shoulder, right arm bend

- lower the blade turning on the right hand to 45 degrees pointing down
- right foot foreward
- strike lower right to top left
- bring blade straight up to left shoulder, left arm bend

- lower the blade turning on the left hand to 45 degrees pointing down
- left foot foreward
- strike lower left to top right
- bring blade straight up to right shoulder, right arm bend

Probably true (though I’ve heard he also took inspiration from Tibetan Buddhism), albeit as the films progressed he began to borrow (or at least his stunt coordinators did) more and more differing styles to distinguish different Jedi (each with their own flair and style) so it may not be out of the realm to expand the traditions from which we can draw from.  :)  At the same time, the style he was aiming for in the original trilogy was very samurai...


Cool.  :) 



After I’ve paced this out weapon in hand, narrowly avoiding hitting everything in my room... :P

Interesting that you have the activation and the stepping out into the stance separate – say more about the idea behind keeping them separate? 

Otherwise it feels to me much like I would imagine a beginner kendo form would feel like (note, I’ve never taken Kendo).  A jab, two diagonal up/down cuts, two of the reverse...

peace,

Kannik

The cool thing about lightsaber combat is, there is a lot of room for interpretation. There's no reason NY Jedi can't have forms, and I can't make my own forms. The differences are really small, and there would be more than one sequence for each form anyways. This has always been the problem with martial arts. This school won't accept this other school's kata ergo that school is stupid.

It's called martial arts, so it's subjective. Some people look at my interpretation of Shii Cho and see an awesome piece of work. Others see it and say "man that looks like crap!" Are either of them wrong? Not really, it's all up for interpretation. Since there's little to no guidance on the forms. We have almost free range with how we make them look.

I mean we can always go back to the old ways and I can just challenge other form practitioners to duels until my way is most widely accepted! lol  ;D

Anyways I love this discussion, and it's making me want to get back on my development of the seven forms again. This whole having a newborn thing has really thrown me off track.

I split the thing in moves for easy learning/reading. Up to the 45 degrees and finally activate we are still in the 'greet' part. Then the forwards stab... and the separate strikes.

And yes... for me Shii-Cho feels like a beginner Kendo too. It has to be... if it teaches a new practitioner all the basic moves.

@Lucien... The duel part is not really something that makes the form better. As all forms at the moment can be split into 'almost' the same strikes and blocks both practitioners would use the same style still. The better trained one will win the duel and it says nothing about the better form. But wouldn't it be nice if we could make one smooth and flowing form through discussion and standarise it? Not that any amount of teachers etc can ever change anything in the NYJedi way. He has already way too many students who he taught his way to change what he done. It would be losing face... Doesn't stop us all from viewing his form critically and maybe come to an agreed one between us. The more people/teachers do this... the fewer the variations exist.

lol I'm merely jesting. What I am saying is, that if you look at any martial arts style... there are always more than one kata. Shii Cho is not made up of one sequence. My sequence has it's place just as much as NY Jedi's does. Not saying you are suggesting otherwise, I'm just saying the form as a whole needs A LOT of development. There should be multiple sequences (an in universe name for kata) going from absolutely basic, to advanced... There are a lot of aspects of Shii Cho that are not noticed. Look at Kit Fisto, he managed to last longer than any of the other council members against Sidious utilizing Shii Cho. So the form can be mastered and used quite effectively. Meaning it's more than just a form to be taught to younglings.


My plan is for this to be done with every form, not just myself working on them but all of you in saberland, from all the communities submitting sequences and velocities you would like to see included into the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

Going to throw 2 cents in (ohh shiny pennies!).  I find the idea of a people fighting over a form for a made up style rather amusing. Unless all us dorks get together and vote on a international standard there are going to be multiple interpretation .  As long as you follow the guide line for the style laid out by the SW universe( HERE THEY ARE http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_I:_Shii-Cho (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_I:_Shii-Cho)) what ever you come up with should be fine.  As for Shii-Cho being a beginner form, like Lucien mentioned above. There are a lot of aspects not noticed.  Once you get the movements down GREAT, But how many applications can you find for each  movement?  It is not the form that is beginner or Advanced it is the person doing the form and what they can see in it.  Lets take look at the first section of the NYjedi version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk#)    How many different applications can you think of for each movement?.   Lets just take the first  two moves, how many can you see for those? Do you just see a Salutation and a Thrust or do you see much more?  Are you learning yet?

Absouletely, and totally agree. When I went out and practiced the 1st sequence of moves, I found things I didn't like when I was flowing through each move. SO, becasue I know my body better then anyone, and what I am capable of, I tweaked certain aspects of the moves. At 100% movement, you would hardly be able to tell the difference in my sequence 1 compared to Sun's sequence 1.

I like Stephen's list of movements all the way through, and putting them down as a Shii-Cho creed is a good start. But in my personal experience, if you need to tweak a move to be more comfortable, then do it. You think every basketball player has the same jump shot? Heck no. Same with Shii-Cho. The basic principles are in place to learn the correct way to shoot a basketball or perform Shii-Cho but sometimes you need to make it your own.

So in saying, Each form needs a standard Creed to follow, and then individuals can customize it to fit their needs. This discussion has been great and I think we've made a lot of progess. Lets keep up the good work, guys!

Z

My thoughts exactly.  I like that we're all discussing aspects of this form, but ultimately I believe that the vague description of it leaves MUCH room for interpretation.  You extrapolate based on your own personal experience and perceptions, resulting in a unique version of it.  As I said, the NY Jedi has some cool points just as Lucien's does.

Yeah, I'm of the mind that Katas (and lets be real here folks, this is what we're talking about) should be more about the message than strict adherence to the letter. If you like Sun's shii cho, but feel something should be tweaked. Tweak it. The whole thing reminde dme of the scene in Reservoir Dogs where they're talking about convincing stories and skill, which I find is similar to swordplay and katas (hey, whatever helps)

Look man, just think about it like it’s a joke right? You memorize what’s important. The rest you make your own, alright? You can tell a joke, can’t you?
 
Nope.
 
Pretend your Don Rickles or some f—–’ body and tell a joke, alright? The things you gotta remember are the details. It’s the details that sell your story

The key things I look for when someone puts out a version of the Forms is this:

Is this kata instructional, or is it just demonstrating your skill? The two are connected, but different. Sun's Shii Cho is the former, while I can argue that NY Jedi's version of Soresu is the later. I'm not going to argue the personal demonstration.

If it's instructional, then does it display the strengths and weaknesses of the Form. This is key, as each form had a distinct strength, so too do they have a distinct weakness. It is slightly less evident in performing solo, because these weaknesses are only noticeable when someone spots them. Consider the weakness when developing it. Shii Cho's main weakness is that it's too basic, it doesn't know the concept of "retreat" "riposte". It only knows the concept of Forward, or through.

And that's it. Does it match the Form at it's Core? Does it instruct others to the Form at it's Core?

Well I would hope it hasn't yet gotten to the point where we are "fighting" over it  :P

Lucien Kane, Duff, Zequar and others, I fully concur.  I think we are discussing a form of Shii-Cho, rather than the form of Shii-Cho.  Even amongst a particular style, and a particular form in that style, each practitioner should, as they get familiar with it, alter things to best suit their body, preferences and abilities.  Which is great!  And each person may do their own version of Shii-Cho – which is also great!  And then we can look them over and discuss where we feel they work, and where they may not.

Thinking about it more, if I were to expand on my thoughts a couple of posts ago (with the idea that there’s probably more to the Shii-Cho form) I think it is actually likely more ‘accurate’, and more profound, to consider each of the seven “Forms” not as a literal form/set/kata, but more of separate martial styles.  Every martial style has various concepts at their foundation, and all movements of that style spring from those foundations.  Reading over the seven styles, each seem to have different and sometimes divergent concepts in movement, energy, focus, attitude and techniques.  They can therefore be taken as different martial styles.  Inside each style different practitioners will do things a bit differently, and if we follow martial development of our planet, different lineages will pop up as masters pass on what they do.  Take Tai Chi for example – all five major styles follow the same 13 principles.  However each style has different things they focus on both inside and outside of those principles.  Chen focuses on whipping energy, Yang in suppleness, Sun in small frame connectedness.  Yet they are all Tai Chi at their core, and the principles are there. 

Shii-Cho has its principles (sweeping movements, etc), and so each master would, over time, develop their own style within that style.   Or, within that Form they develop their own interpretations and sequences (to use the language provided in-universe).  One padawan looking at another may not recognize the exact sequence from a different master but would still see the principles and how they are being applied.

And so it is with us (at least within the way I'm seeing how form/style/sequence/kata/etc could actually all be viewed).  :)  Which is what makes this all great.  Tonight I went out back and began to put together the first section of my Shii-Cho sequence, and once I get it down I want to put up a vid for my jedi martial brothers and sisters to comment.   

loving the conversation,

peace,

Kannik

Excellent posts you guys! This is all very exciting to be apart of this!

I too want to create a video for my fellow stargazers :) I know my brother has a nice video camera, so hopefully here soon I can post video's of my interprutation of Shii-Cho. And then put up a video of us going back and forth with the 1st sequence as to show the defensive side of defending against a Shii-Cho combatant  ;D

Horizontal swipes...

(http://i44.tinypic.com/261yw4z.jpg)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/24cfuk2.jpg)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/avlkyq.jpg)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/9r0ncm.jpg)

and from the other side...

(http://i42.tinypic.com/15nlh1h.jpg)

(http://i44.tinypic.com/161hsg8.jpg)

Lucien doesn't do these strikes!

As you can see he steps forewards with his striking leg... But then this form takes a lot of space. Also that step we already had in the first strikes. I would suggest the side step here. On the swipe from right to left place the left foot at 45 degrees outwards... turn place it straight... angle the other foot and swipe from left to right.

More foot work introduced and still keeping the technique in.

*note*

He lounges a bit and bends foreward during the swipes... (and the strikes too). This cannot be right even if the power is greater. The technique should hold the back straight and the spine above middle-centre stance. This for balance. Overstretching is NOT good!

Upward strikes...

(http://i41.tinypic.com/wb729i.jpg)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/317fhgy.jpg)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2pplqx1.jpg)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/aqxds.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2aikeus.jpg)

Lucien does this part too... the strikes go from below right to top left using the right leg again as strike point. And vice-versa... Sun executes this as one solid sequence without a real stop.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/dqlk07.jpg)

(http://i43.tinypic.com/3449zxk.jpg)

(http://i40.tinypic.com/vfxe6v.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/24ffn0p.jpg)

Although Lucien puts some more power in these strikes it is basically the same technique. Watch how Lucien holds his back straight here... he doesn't lounges/overstretches as Sun does.

Keeping your back straight is very, very important. Now this is not the same as staying stiff, just to clear up confusion. With a strong back comes a strong core and with both of these being the focal point for any one person, Lucien is setting a good example. A lot of your power derives from the core and back area so strengthening these parts of your body will also in turn help you better your skills as a duelist or help you master any of the martial forms of lightsaber combat... especially form IV, Ataru.

That being said, with my fighting style. My back goes bendy during a duel, I whip around and bend and suck in my gut and lean back a lot to evade getting hit. When not having a blade swung at your face though I agree the back should stay straight. Just don't lock that in so that you can't ever adapt and move if you need to.

But fighting style and Kata is two different things. The technique in a kata should be perfect... so it can be used to teach and practice. What you do with it afterwards in a fight can be different. But the basics must be trained right.

One, Thank you for this ^^. Two, I would change "perfect" with "precise". If we're looking for perfection, we may as well stop right here and do something constructive with our talents.

Three. Do NOT READ TOO MUCH INTO THE FORM. If you start comparing one practitioner to the other, you have officially missed the point of a kata. It's not about "Well look how this one did that one and that one did this one." Look at their understanding and their technique. Sun, five years after making that Form, has changed significantly, as has his understanding of the form which in turn has changed the form. It's subtle, but it's much improved.

A kata should be precise enough to teach, but free enough to adapt. Everything must have an internal flow, or it is dead

Yes.. that is what we are doing here... Sun and his friends started a new art. Based on the popularity of the FX light sabers, the information in the books... and his own knowledge of martial arts a new swordfighting lesson was born. And it is now still 'under construction'. What I just want to reach is a complete worked out form so it can be practiced without me living in NY or LA and taking classes. And the thrill of seeying this develop is also why I put so much time in this.

It is like all martial arts considered 'real'(I have this discussion with a collegue of mine who doesn't see this as a real martial art development but merely as playing with a toy. The further evolution of a martial arts and/or a dance is by introducing new elements that the current practicioner or the public like to do. Because if that person doesn't like to do it, everything will die out eventually.

Dance is a good comparison... as is music. A dance can be combined with other movements because the dancer likes to be different (maybe from background like 'Shakira' who combines bellydance and latin) or because the public wants to see something different. If there is more public wanting to see the different dance, that means more money coming in for the dancer... which results in the dance becoming more performed... more seen... and eventually copied (Mata Hari). Change must be there for an art to evolve... and the person practicing it stands at the root of that all.

For those that haven't read Uilos718's paper I link it here. http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0)  it is worth a look.

Dunno if this will help anyone else, but I sketched myself some "crib-notes" to refer to when at work.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/shiichosketch.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/shiichosketch2.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/shiichosketch3.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/shiichostepsketch.jpg)

Cestual,  that's really beautiful. Would you mind if I swipe a copy to teach?

Agreed Cestual, well done man. just enough detail for someone to look and learn off of it. This would definitely be a "must" in the Form I, Shii-Cho, martial manual!

-nods-  It is one thing my Sifu has always encouraged us to do, which is to see others' forms and understand what they are going for, then test for ourselves if it is a working expression of the concept of the style or not.  And over time all lineages of even the same style will begin to do things differently, yet if the core fundamentals remain there they are still the same style or form.   Similarly over time each practitioner will have their form alter as they gain greater understanding of their style.  :)


There was a great quote I read by a Shaolin Monk expat in the introduction to a book on Klingon martial arts.  He stated that in times of old, martial artists looked at the animals around them for inspiration, using the essence (as they saw it) of the animal to develop their style, even fantastical creatures such as dragons.  So why not draw inspiration from other fiction as well?  So long as it is developed to a good depth upon solid principles (and usually built off the foundation of existing martial knowledge) then it can be a great development. 

And here we are trying to invent something mostly from whole cloth, or from limited scenes from a Hollywood movie.  So we've got much to do.  ;)  I appreciate the idea of this thread, to create some sort of baseline/idea/foundation/form that those who do want to develop the style has a starting point. 


Nice!  Yoinked!  I'll bring 'em out tonight and try it out...

peace,

Kannik

Thankee, and please do!

I was half a sleep when I posted this and didn't notice that Uilos was actually in the thread.... well I give you props any way man.  ;D

I've been working on my Shii Cho interpretation/instruction banner project for several weeks now and discovered that my computer just couldn't handle so large an image, so I've broken it down into several pages for people to print off. I call it my interpretation as there are 1 or 2 slightly modified moves. I've also come up with a counterpart sequence I've called Shii Co Min ("Min" being Tibetan for "2") which once learned can be used as the other half of a choreographed fight with the Shii Cho kata. I'm still calling this a work in progress as far as the art is concerned, but the moves are presented here. I've gotten the blessing of NYJedis General Sun before posting,

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN1.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN2.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN3.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN4.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN5.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN6.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHOFIN7.jpg)
And the counterpart kata
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHODEF1.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHODEF2.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHODEF3.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHODEF4.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHODEF5.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/SHIICHODEF6.jpg)

I'm rather pleased with the counterpart kata, as I feel like the seeds of the other forms are planted here.

For those who don't know, here is our formulation of form 1. In progress. Check back often for form and velocities.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL89FD30F9F512416E&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL89FD30F9F512416E&feature=plcp)

You've put out a great set of videos there. The issue I was having is that when out in the yard practicing is it's kind of a pain to run back inside to check youtube to recall how a move goes. I wanted something handy I could have on a nearby wall or in a folder or even folded up in my pocket. My memory ain't like it used to be, lol.  ::)

Thanks, I like your drawing of your form.

 I'm just trying to get the word out :D

I subscribed.

Thank you! My hopes is that there's enough interest in the counter form that folks will start to practice it along with Suns Shii Cho as a place to start for a fight choreography. If I ever run across just 1 video of someone trying it, I'll be thrilled, lol.

Quick question to the community, would it be helpful if I drew out the combat in a similar style so everyone can see how they play against each other?

M.J. and I printed them out and are learning the first part side by side.

Since we have no formal training this like you said a really great place to start when you need a foundation.

That's awesome Kham  ;D

We do Shii-Cho a bit differently here.

We use no thrusts (deemed too dangerous for combat, and our school is about combat, not coreography)
We have six basic parries, two low, two mid, two high, and two high finishing parries, plus advanced versions of the first six
We have nine basic strikes, three dealt in the vertical plane (two low, one high), two in the horizontal (two lateral) and four in the diagonal (two down-up, two up-down)
Also, we use no left or right guard, that is something that I see in Soresu, in Shii-Cho we always keep the blade toward the eyes of the opponent.
I apologize that I cannot draw that well, I would love to put together something similar

Keep it up, it's very interesting what you are doing, and I enjoy looking through it.

I look at your website, as I am attempting to devour every bit of information about Shii-cho as I can. Unfortunately, I cannot understand one bit of the information written. Do you guys have any of that information written in English? Or maybe a place where I can find it?

I don't think you can find info about the technique on the school website, I am afraid.

Uh huh.. sure. I bet that's how you guys keep all of the juicy secrets to yourself. "Just write it in another language!"

Haha!! I'm just kidding!

so,.. went ahead and drew it anyways
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/CHOR1.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/CHOR2.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/CHOR3.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/CHOR4.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/darthcestual/CHOR5.jpg)

I have finally read every single post on every single page of this thread, and I am finally caught up! I'd like to offer my interpretations of this discussion for you all to digest. Remember, this is coming from someone with zero experience, who is clumsy, uncoordinated, but is determined to succeed no matter what.

My basic understanding of the form is that it is what is taught to beginners. This form is used to set a basic foundation of weapon strikes and parries with which the practitioner can gain a solid understanding. With this foundation set (you MUST have a solid foundation or else everything built upon it will crumble), the practitioner can further expand their knowledge of the form and become a master, or branch out into one of the other forms.

As stated prior, the form is mainly used for setting the foundation, but practical use would be against more than one opponent. It seems to me that footwork and knowing how to maneuver is also key to the form (this could be key to every form and just something assumed. **Remember.. new guy here!**). Using the wide sweeping moves and controlling the movement, one could force their opponent to concentrate more on, or lose focus of, their environment and make a mistake.

SEQUENCES

My thoughts on sequences is that I am going to just leave this to the more experienced of you. From what I have seen from people like General Sun, Lucien Kane, and the drawings by Darth Cestual, I think you all have a great system set up. I would like to say that conforming to a rigid form would be limiting, considering the infinite possibilities that creating something like this could offer. If ANYTHING about this form should be set in stone, I would say that the basic strikes (Sai, Cho, and Shiim) and parries be the only thing.

For example: "In Shii-Cho, there are three basic strikes and three basic parries. Here are three sequences that incorporate the strikes and parries, but there are infinitely more, waiting to be created." This is just hypothetical. I have NO IDEA if there are just three strike or three parries. I'm just using this as an example.

I think what people like General Sun, Lucien Kane, and Darth Cestual are coming up with are variations of sequences that use established strikes and parries. But I still have no idea what the VERY BASIC FOUNDATION of the form is. I'm learning a few strikes here and there from watching Darth Nonymous and the Terra Prime videos, as well as videos from Lucien Kane, and now the drawings from Darth Cestual.

EXPECTATIONS

As a beginner with zero experience, what I would like to see from an established form of lightsaber combat are the basics of what the rest of the form (sequences and velocities) are built upon. Tell me how many strikes there are. Show me those strikes. Tell me how many parries there are. Show me those parries. Show me a practical application of a strike and parry. Include footwork. Once these basics are learned, I can then feel comfortable moving into a sequence to practice. With some practicing, I can then participate in velocities against other opponents.

I may be TOTALLY off here. But this is my basic understanding of what has transpired in this thread. All of the rest of you are really experienced, which is great! But there are lots of others here that are like me: reading through and attempting to digest and put into a practical application, but maybe too intimidated to speak.

GOALS

My personal goal is to learn as much of Shii-Cho as possible, then eventually move into Soresu. I consider myself extremely lucky that Lucien Kane lives fairly close to me and has extended an invitation to me to join him this weekend. I would like to start and establish my own group here in San Diego as there aren't any at the moment. There are a few people at my work who are interested, but I want to be able to offer them some knowledge as well.

Thank you for this great discussion. Please keep it up. Know that while you are all discussing, I am absorbing and putting this into practical use!

Ok so here is a little video on our Shii-Cho Form. There are some demos and stance clarifications. I also tried to layer it with information about dulon training and such.

Let me know what you think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZEESNVrHYc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZEESNVrHYc#ws)

I think you understand it pretty well. I also think you probably have most of what you need to know already. As some one experienced in the martial arts, I can attest, you don't need a lot to go a long way. You have the right attitude so, if you use your head, I am confident you will attain you desired level of skill.

If all goes as planned, We should have the majority of our Shii-Cho system up for everyone to borrow grab and steal from. Form is finally done so now it's on to Velocities!

Thank you very much Darth Nonymous. I am playing and replaying your videos over and over. I am digesting every stance, placement of the feet, hands and arm movements. This Dulon appears to be fairly simple, just long. I am so very glad that you broke it down into segments. This makes it easy. I have the first trajectory memorized, and am just trying to perfect it before moving onto the next.

What I find that I have a problem with is the turning. I never know which way to turn. Once I do it a few times though, I am sure I'll get it. I want to post a video of me completing the Dulon and hope to hear your feedback, as well as feedback from everyone else.

@Darth Nonymous

Shii-Cho as we do it here is different, but still I can tell that the spirit of the form is the same; for example, the right side low blow is very similar, though we stop it below groin height for safety reasons; on the other hand the left side one is very different. Still, I enjoyed watching the video quite a lot, as it's refreshing to see different interpretations of a form, and it offers a lot of new ideas that one can use to improve, so I applaud you on your initiative.

However, there are a couple of things which I believe are open to criticism.

First, I have noticed several times that the instructor uncovers himself by bringing the sword behind him to charge the blow, such as at 2:01 and especially at 2:03 when he actually stops for a half second. Given the peculiarities of the saber (it cuts everything but a saber, without much effort) I believe this is un-needed and leaves you open to attack. Here, the sword goes behind you only when rotating which is faster than inverting the movement, as there is never a moment where it actually stops behind you. The sword is your only defense, why would you want it behind you when the opponent is in front? That makes sense only when facing more than one opponent, but that's what Soresu is for.

Second, I couldn't help but notice that many of the blows shown in the video have the potential of causing real harm to the opponent; look at 4:23 for example, that can easily hit the throat or the neck with the point, and it's a no-no in my book. We also have no kneeling stance, but that's an interpretation matter, whereas the safety matter is real. Also, there is no real need to extend low blows to the upper body: a hit in the legs or groin is good enough to kill, and not as dangerous in practice.

If this style is only used for mock combats, then I withdraw this observation, but if you want to actually play for points, as we do, it's not something I would want my opponent to use against me.

I hope that didn't come out as too outspoken or aggressive, but I feel really strongly on safety issues.

Andus:  Thanks for the compliment, let me address some of your criticisms:

"First, I have noticed several times that the instructor uncovers himself by bringing the sword behind him to charge the blow, such as at 2:01 and especially at 2:03 when he actually stops for a half second. Given the peculiarities of the saber (it cuts everything but a saber, without much effort) I believe this is un-needed and leaves you open to attack. Here, the sword goes behind you only when rotating which is faster than inverting the movement, as there is never a moment where it actually stops behind you. The sword is your only defense, why would you want it behind you when the opponent is in front? That makes sense only when facing more than one opponent, but that's what Soresu is for."

That is a misunderstanding of technique. When practicing alone, one works on range of motion with the arms and shoulders. Bringing the blade all the way back when doing solo practices patterns correct movement and has been used in the military for centuries to train soldiers. Most of this form comes from real military sets that were taught all the way into WW2 in China. There is also something of a parry that can be performed at the back. It is done two ways: one bring the sword straight back or circle it around the head. Yes, one needs to open one's defenses for a time, but that is true of most swinging attacks.

"Second, I couldn't help but notice that many of the blows shown in the video have the potential of causing real harm to the opponent; look at 4:23 for example, that can easily hit the throat or the neck with the point, and it's a no-no in my book. We also have no kneeling stance, but that's an interpretation matter, whereas the safety matter is real. Also, there is no real need to extend low blows to the upper body: a hit in the legs or groin is good enough to kill, and not as dangerous in practice."

I disagree entirely. This is a martial art and as such the techniques are intended to kill or maim. The techniques used in this form, as I stated, are unaltered from military forms. So , yes, most of the techniques are performed with an intent to hit and (in our minds) kill. Shii-Cho itself is simple and direct. Less experienced fighters must go through large ROM or they will have a hard time creating speed and power in confrontation. We use the 6 target zones and the head is included. Even if you aren't trying to go for thee targets, you can still get hit by them. We protect our necks and heads very well for that reason. We also do not see the need to alter techniques when we have safety gear available to us.

While the saber is technically a toy, it is still a weapon analog. If you take these techniques and apply them to real swords and things, they should work.

"If this style is only used for mock combats, then I withdraw this observation, but if you want to actually play for points, as we do, it's not something I would want my opponent to use against me."

No worries, if we ever meet up we will throw some gear on you and you will be fine ;D

We use the style for forms, choreography, dueling, and all of that. We play for points, but we wear safety gear. I thin if you guy just throw on a fencing mask and some good gloves, you can do all of these techniques safely and at full speed. We wear head gear, pads, gloves, and all of that and we can go full contact with the sabers. Yes we go for the head and neck. Yes, we go for the torso and legs. But we know that we have protection so no one gets hurt.

Even at slow speeds and with beginners, we have them wear head gear and gloves-even if it is just points. We are total safety dictators. The description of how you guy go at it seems a little risky in my book, so I cannot endorse it.I have seen people loose eyes playing tennis. Swinging a stick at someone requires lots of safety measures in my book and we take that VERY seriously.

So far so good.

Again, thanks for the feedback! If you like it,please subscribe, we are putting up more videos all the time. Velocities are coming up next with Shii-Cho.

Hi, thanks for the reply.
I understand that we are simply approaching the "problem" from two different philosophical approaches. One is to reduce danger, and therefore make it more of a sport, even if with a martial background, the other is to go no limits and increase protection, and therefore make it more of a martial art.
I will gladly follow your videos; even if I can't use your moves I believe that there is always something to be learnt from everybody (and I see how much that is true every time I teach somebody).
Regards

Yes, unfortunately, because of the light, i was forced to split it up so you could see what I was doing when feeing the other direction. Otherwise I would have put a split screen or PIP and show the set as performed. I will try to getting around to having VorNach or some one shoot me doing it in it's entirety.

Maybe this will help; The lines go back and forth, one forward turn around go back. So each alter nation is simply headed the opposite direction.

That being said, Most real forms or "kata" develop from simply sticking a bunch of basic lines together. You can practice each trajectory as a small short form. So you T1-reset/rest T2-etc. etc. Building up layers over time, when you get a handle on where your body is in space, you won't even have to think about it.

Totally! post what you have so far and we can have a look see.

How is this any different from performing a bo staff kata or other weapon form in any martial art? Yes, we are all participating in an activity that comes from a fictional work of art, using glowing sticks of light. This activity does incorporate real martial arts and techniques that can seriously hurt someone.

Being prior service military, I do everything the same: I train as I would fight. Will I ever fight for my life with a glowing stick? No. But I put in discipline and maximum effort into my training. It's up to me to know how to control myself when performing with other people or dueling.

Just like in a martial arts class when you spar with your classmates. You use the same techniques that have the ability to kill someone, but you are disciplined enough to control yourself and be safe.

I think I didn't explain myself properly: with "fictional" lightsabers, all of our techniques would be lethal or dismembering. The point is that they are not dangerous for my opponent with "replica" lightsabers. So he still "dies" but he is not at risk of injury. I hope it's a bit clearer now :)

No, I understood you completely. And I am on board with you about safety. It is very important.

My point is that lightsaber combat is just like any other martial art. Take a class and you'll see that the moves employed in sparring are the same moves you would use in real life. The only difference is that you exert a certain amount of control and wear the appropriate protective gear in an attempt to mitigate any potential injuries.

I guess in my mind, having been shaped by combat training by the military, if you train and practice using non-lethal techniques, you will employee non-lethal skills when the time is needed to use them.

I realize this is all staged and not real, but there is an element of realism behind it.

And I applaud your efforts to keep your students safe good sir!

All the good efforts are my Masters', and all the mistakes are mine ;)
I'm just an instructor at the lowest level, but I am learning.

A question to Darth Cestual: did you do all the drawing by hand? It's amazing.

Thankee! Yes, the line work was done by hand, in pencil then inked over with a Micron pen. Most of my drawing these days I do at work when I hit a slow part of the day. Once finished, I bring my sketchbook home from the office and scan it into the computer where I add color and do a lot of cleanup, the same as I do most of my other works I've posted.

Drawing my katas was a habit I'd picked up years ago when I was practicing karate regularly. It helped me to not only learn the form, but I analyzed every move in order to draw it, and therefore gained a better understanding of how each move was supposed to properly function. I find it interesting to see so many variations of Sun's Shii Cho are out there (my own included) that all show their basis in the original version but have had each movement interpreted differently. I imagine much of that comes from the various martial arts backgrounds so many of us have.

One suggestion:  I see that for the solo form you have front view and top view. Then in the two person version you have side view. I might think about making a side view of the solo set so folks could follow along and see how you guys match your set to your two person exercise.

I'd considered that at one point actually, but I guess I was hoping that saberists would learn the single forms 1st and then use the paired form just as a guide to see how the 2 forms interact.

I meant just for the solo set. Then when people are ready, the two person set doesn't look strange. Folks would be able to transfer the techniques a bit better.

I'll see about that once I'm done on my current project, thanks for the tip!

I wanted to resurrect this post. I saved these images when Darth Cestual posted them, and I began to memorize them last night. I'm starting with the Shii-Cho Min form, then will learn the other. I hope to have Shii-Cho Min memorized by this weekend so my son can video me (if he remembers to bring the video camera from his moms... grrr...)

I feel really good about this set of moves. Thanks Darth Cestual!

Thank YOU man for showing an interest in my little contribution to the hobby. I'm even working on a reverse-grip version for both of these as well if anyone would be interested...

Would definitely love to discuss these movesets with you. I have some questions though. I may be misunderstanding some of the moves and directions, but some of them seem kind of awkward to perform and I am having some difficulty with them. Specifically on the Shii-Cho attacks (the blue pages). I think it was the 5th or 6th moves where after you parry to the right and the left, you need to step back into the guard stance, then step forward into the guard stance for the left side. I see the paths on the pictures that indicate what directions the sabers should be taking, but it's been a little difficult.

I hope to have a video this weekend to show what I have down, then maybe you can critique it and maybe assist with some of the moves.

Thanks again!

This is the vid I based my stuff on which is admittedly slightly different. I felt the need for a couple of "defensive" movements in my interpretation of the basic form, but the original might feel better for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk#)

Thanks for posting this.

The reason why I liked your drawings is because I can look at the and not have to pause, rewind, watch, pause, rewind, watch over and over again. It's easier for me to look at the drawings. But comparing the videos to the drawings may help too.

Thank you!!

No prob dude. Yeah, I liked having something handy to refer to when I'd be working on the form at work or outside without having to run back inside every other minute, lol. Besides it helps me learn a form when I draw it all out. Plus, I like having a physical record of this info. I'm weird that way. Well, I'm weird in many ways, but I don't really mind.  ;D

Darth Cestual, the drawing of the form is extremely awesome and just as helpful. You should consider doing it for other forms as well!

Thank you DD! I am planning on drawing the other forms, but 1st I want to explore as much of Shii Cho that I can manage. Reverse grip, dual wielding, and staff version for both of my interpretations of the form.

That is going to be amazing! Can't wait to see them!

As I have said before, I really find his drawings helpful. Where I am having difficulty, I am incorporating some of my own moves in there. And like him, I want to explore as much of Shii-Cho as possible.

I'm glad to hear it! I use them constantly myself. It's great to know that the work I put into making them is getting use by someone other than me, lol.

I'm not too into dual wielding, but I would love to see your variation for saberstaff.  Heck, even the dual wielding might be fun to see with this. (Dual as in two sabers or a saber and a shoto?)

2 sabers is what I'm working on at the moment for the 2 shii cho forms I've drawn up. If I can pull it off, which ever version a person wants to use will work with any of the counter-forms and hopefully build enough of a set of basic moves for most situations. I'm contemplating a reverse grip version for dual wielding as well, perhaps I could work a shoto into that if there'd be interest. Staff will be interesting for me as that was not one of my stronger weapon styles, lol.

Let me be the 1st to say I do NOT have the skills or experience of our resident masters, and I'm a good 8 years out of practice on my martial arts, but I do have a bit of knowledge and a framework to build upon.