Form I: Shii-Cho

[Darth Ravenloft]

Wow, this is all beautiful.

Someone had mentioned that Sun's Shii Cho is slow, almost meditative. This is correct. This is a Kata, a sword form that is used as both an instructional and meditative tool.

For the Form in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0OLlYLB2fA#

Sun is very impressive in his movements, I like his technique. HOWEVER, I noticed he tends to overextend himself to the point of almost falling forward. Something my teacher taught me when I began learning how
to use a sword, and something I ingrain into my students, is while you want to commit to a strike you don't want to over extend yourself and leave yourself open like that. Now I realize with saber combat it's a little
different than using a katana in my regards, but overextending one's self into any technique can and usually does have dangerous consequences. Other than that I think his skills are impressive...MOST impressive.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Thanks for that video Uilos, it was great to see the other side of his form - the application!  Something I noticed about General Sun's kata was that it was very, VERY deliberate and clean.  I'm sure in his development of it he practiced the moves quite a bit, so I'm not terribly surprised, but it was neat to see that kind of technique.  I like how basic but effective that form is... my only issue with it is the squaring of the shoulders during the thrust.  I've never really seen the practical sense in that, especially being as bringing one's feet together gives the opportunity for imbalance, but that's just me.

The salute is just something you throw in there for extra flair... it was done in the movie by Dooku to emphasize his aristocratic, duelist style of combat.  It's something that would likely be implemented if this were to be made into a sport (as it is in fencing - where you salute your opponent, the director, and the audience).  For "real" saber combat (in the SW universe), however, it's not exactly practical.

[Kannik]

Opening
General Sun starts with the saber on and holds it close to his face. I don't think that is a good way to handle a light saber at all! In my opinion he should hold the saber in front in a 45 degree angle... and then activate it!

Lucien does a more powerfull opening. But even though it is perfect for any sword... it doesn't fit the danger a light saber energy blade gives. He also doesn't active it. It is a great greeting but I don't think I like it in a form that is using a light saber.

Great discussion... and as with everything, it is perfect to begin at the beginning, with the first step... 

I concur that neither of these greetings are quite appropriate for either lightsabre usage/training, or for the monastic way Jedi are portrayed.  General Sun’s greeting blocks line of sight, an odd way to start a form (or a duel, for that matter), and then there’s that “I cut my nose off in a training accident” thing.   Lucien’s is pretty formal, which I do prefer, yet is not quite reverent enough (of course, that’s our human culture speaking... )

Overall I think the salute should/would be performed with the blade off.  The salute is a formal part of the training, both for readying yourself, as well as for showing respect to your dueling partner and to the Jedi lineage who has trained you to this point.  Secondly, activating your blade is a key component in actual combat usage.  Learning to handle the activation while making a movement would be crucial should harm come suddenly your way.  Therefore I say that the salute is done weapon off, you would ready yourself, and then as part of the opening movement of the form activate the blade, likely going into a ready or guard position.

Two potential salutes I think work well for this would be traditional Shaolin and martial salutes.  One is simply holding the weapon at your side, while saluting one handedly: 



(insert great story about the Jedi master who had lost and arm and the salute became one handed in his honour...)

Or with both hands:



I like this second one more.  Begin at loose attention.  You salute, displaying the weapon.  Return the weapon to your side, feet together at the ready, and then start the form with a burst of motion and activation of the blade.   It would have a nice coupling at the end of the form, deactivating the blade into the salute, then back to attention. 

More in a moment...

peace,

Kannik

[Kannik]

Thank you Stephen for starting this topic!  It’s very timely as I am beginning to put together various things to develop a training regimen with the potential of starting up a Sabre Club/Jedi Academy in my area.    Delving into things is just perfect.  Love what everyone’s been saying here so far, hopefully I can add something to this. 

I don’t know where to start. 

If Shii-Cho is intended to teach beginners, I would think that it may actually have several sections, each one getting progressively more involved and build on the previous sections.  This would  allow the initiate to learn the basics of any martial style (balance, movement, stances, basic techniques), adding to it as  they progressed and were ready for the next section.  Form I may be one of the longest forms just because of this reason -- though only the masters of the style may know the entire form.  It may start two handed to help teach precision and control, yet switch to single handed later on as those are mastered.

Also, Shii-cho is a combat style, primarily suited to (if I read everything correctly) be used on non-sabre equipped adversaries.  Hmm, a quick aside:

(As a weapon with, effectively, an infinitely sharp blade, lightsabres are interesting in that they don’t need much power behind contact to cause damage, unless you are against one of the few materials/objects that are resistant to the blade.  Thus I see sabre forms (or specific moves within a form) being split into three categories in their purpose/intention:  for use against unarmoured targets, for use against other sabre weilders, and for use against shielded/armoured targets.)

Here, what’s the most important is big, sweeping and, most importantly, continuous motion.  The sabre should swing in wide, covering arcs, momentum carried through each strike into the next unless returning to a guard position.  (later, this concept is applied to blaster bolt deflections, and modified into more aggressive sabre-on-sabre fighting styles). 

Taking the above all together, Shii-Cho I think would start off with some very basic accuracy and coordination based drills, coupled with some basic movements from stance to stance, and things to train balance.  Quickly, though, the concepts of continuous striking would be added in, and momentum maintained.  What is shown on the linked videos I think would only be similar to the first section of Shii-Cho.... not the whole form.     

As another aside, about spins:  while they may seem flashy they are actually quite effective low-strike deflection moves, especially when your weapon can cut everyone else’s.    Spinning, besides looking cool, is way to train weapon control and especially comfort, so I see it as valid being in the form.

As a third aside, and for transparency’s sake so you know where I’m coming from I’ve been training traditional Chinese martial arts for about 11.5 years now, so my thoughts will come from the principles of those styles, and thus have a distinctly Chinese accent to them...

Gotta run for the moment, looking forward to more,

Peace,

Kannik

[Stephen Strange]

Two potential salutes I think work well for this would be traditional Shaolin and martial salutes.  One is simply holding the weapon at your side, while saluting one handedly: 


Or with both hands:

I myself come from the chinese Kung-fu training... but as Lucas described the Jedi as a combination of Samurai and western monks I would steer away from the chinese greetings/salutes and place a japanese one here. I do agree on the weapon off in greeting for all reasons you give.

Japanese would be...

- hilt emitter pointed down on the left hip hold there by left hand. Right hand on right hip...
- bow keeping eye contact...
- grab hilt in 45 degrees in front of you...
- Activate...

[Ander]

For what is worth, the guard in Shii-Cho as it is taught here is more or less like this: sword in both hands in front of the pelvis, right hand on saber pivot, left hand behind; tip of the blade toward opponent's face; legs slightly bent, left foot forward, right foot backward tilted 45° (feet can be inverted). There is also a guard with the saber held at eye level and pointed forward, but that's more of a stance that you can assume after trading blows than a starting position.

The style resembles kendo, but the feet move differently and but low attacks are used much more frequently; there are NO thrusts which are strictly forbidden.

[Master Nero Attoru]

For what is worth, the guard in Shii-Cho as it is taught here is more or less like this: sword in both hands in front of the pelvis, right hand on saber pivot, left hand behind; tip of the blade toward opponent's face; legs slightly bent, left foot forward, right foot backward tilted 45° (feet can be inverted). There is also a guard with the saber held at eye level and pointed forward, but that's more of a stance that you can assume after trading blows than a starting position.

The style resembles kendo, but the feet move differently and but low attacks are used much more frequently; there are NO thrusts which are strictly forbidden.

That guard stance sounds much like the guard stance I use in Shii-Cho as well... the standard center stance of kendo.  It's a perfect "middle of the road" position, where both parries and attacks can be executed easily.

The thrusts make total sense too, since they can be VERY dangerous with these sabers.  That's a topic that's been discussed a couple times around here, and even a fencer like myself tries to cut back (forgive the pun) on my thrusting.

[ZequarX]

Just got my saber in yesterday, and went ahead and practiced the 1st part of Shii-Cho. I just watched General Sun's 1st video and went and practiced it. Then I made it more of a challenge by going up and down a hill with uneven spots all around. I also would run about 15ft then go straight into the move set! After about 45 minutes I was feeling really good with a nice sweat going on lol. Lots of fun, and look forward to other 6 forms!

[Stephen Strange]

So... what would you think of doing this part like this?

- feet together
- hilt emitter pointed down on the left hip hold there by left hand. Right hand on right hip...
- bow keeping eye contact...
- grab hilt in 45 degrees in front of you...
- Activate...

- right foot to the right forming a comfortable solid stance
- knees slightly bend
- blade 45 degrees in front pointed to opponents face

- left foot foreward
- straight trust to target (not horizontal but in the direction of the blade)

- right arm bends holding the saber straight up to the right shoulder (check Yoda)

- right foot foreward
- strike top right to lower left
- stop blade controlled on 'almost' straight right arm (don't over reach)
- bring blade straight up to left shoulder, left arm bend

- left foot foreward
- strike top left to lower right
- stop blade controlled on 'almost' straight right arm (don't over reach)
- bring blade straight up to right shoulder, right arm bend

- lower the blade turning on the right hand to 45 degrees pointing down
- right foot foreward
- strike lower right to top left
- bring blade straight up to left shoulder, left arm bend

- lower the blade turning on the left hand to 45 degrees pointing down
- left foot foreward
- strike lower left to top right
- bring blade straight up to right shoulder, right arm bend

[Kannik]

I myself come from the chinese Kung-fu training... but as Lucas described the Jedi as a combination of Samurai and western monks I would steer away from the chinese greetings/salutes and place a japanese one here.

Probably true (though I’ve heard he also took inspiration from Tibetan Buddhism), albeit as the films progressed he began to borrow (or at least his stunt coordinators did) more and more differing styles to distinguish different Jedi (each with their own flair and style) so it may not be out of the realm to expand the traditions from which we can draw from.    At the same time, the style he was aiming for in the original trilogy was very samurai...

I do agree on the weapon off in greeting for all reasons you give.

Cool.   

So... what would you think of doing this part like this?

- feet together
- hilt emitter pointed down on the left hip hold there by left hand. Right hand on right hip...
- bow keeping eye contact...
- grab hilt in 45 degrees in front of you...
- Activate...

- right foot to the right forming a comfortable solid stance
- knees slightly bend
- blade 45 degrees in front pointed to opponents face

After I’ve paced this out weapon in hand, narrowly avoiding hitting everything in my room...

Interesting that you have the activation and the stepping out into the stance separate – say more about the idea behind keeping them separate? 

Otherwise it feels to me much like I would imagine a beginner kendo form would feel like (note, I’ve never taken Kendo).  A jab, two diagonal up/down cuts, two of the reverse...

peace,

Kannik

[Master Lucien Kane]

The cool thing about lightsaber combat is, there is a lot of room for interpretation. There's no reason NY Jedi can't have forms, and I can't make my own forms. The differences are really small, and there would be more than one sequence for each form anyways. This has always been the problem with martial arts. This school won't accept this other school's kata ergo that school is stupid.

It's called martial arts, so it's subjective. Some people look at my interpretation of Shii Cho and see an awesome piece of work. Others see it and say "man that looks like crap!" Are either of them wrong? Not really, it's all up for interpretation. Since there's little to no guidance on the forms. We have almost free range with how we make them look.

I mean we can always go back to the old ways and I can just challenge other form practitioners to duels until my way is most widely accepted! lol 

Anyways I love this discussion, and it's making me want to get back on my development of the seven forms again. This whole having a newborn thing has really thrown me off track.

[Stephen Strange]

Interesting that you have the activation and the stepping out into the stance separate – say more about the idea behind keeping them separate? 

I split the thing in moves for easy learning/reading. Up to the 45 degrees and finally activate we are still in the 'greet' part. Then the forwards stab... and the separate strikes.

And yes... for me Shii-Cho feels like a beginner Kendo too. It has to be... if it teaches a new practitioner all the basic moves.

@Lucien... The duel part is not really something that makes the form better. As all forms at the moment can be split into 'almost' the same strikes and blocks both practitioners would use the same style still. The better trained one will win the duel and it says nothing about the better form. But wouldn't it be nice if we could make one smooth and flowing form through discussion and standarise it? Not that any amount of teachers etc can ever change anything in the NYJedi way. He has already way too many students who he taught his way to change what he done. It would be losing face... Doesn't stop us all from viewing his form critically and maybe come to an agreed one between us. The more people/teachers do this... the fewer the variations exist.

[Master Lucien Kane]

@Lucien... The duel part is not really something that makes the form better. As all forms at the moment can be split into 'almost' the same strikes and blocks both practitioners would use the same style still. The better trained one will win the duel and it says nothing about the better form. But wouldn't it be nice if we could make one smooth and flowing form through discussion and standarise it? Not that any amount of teachers etc can ever change anything in the NYJedi way. He has already way too many students who he taught his way to change what he done. It would be losing face... Doesn't stop us all from viewing his form critically and maybe come to an agreed one between us. The more people/teachers do this... the fewer the variations exist.

lol I'm merely jesting. What I am saying is, that if you look at any martial arts style... there are always more than one kata. Shii Cho is not made up of one sequence. My sequence has it's place just as much as NY Jedi's does. Not saying you are suggesting otherwise, I'm just saying the form as a whole needs A LOT of development. There should be multiple sequences (an in universe name for kata) going from absolutely basic, to advanced... There are a lot of aspects of Shii Cho that are not noticed. Look at Kit Fisto, he managed to last longer than any of the other council members against Sidious utilizing Shii Cho. So the form can be mastered and used quite effectively. Meaning it's more than just a form to be taught to younglings.


My plan is for this to be done with every form, not just myself working on them but all of you in saberland, from all the communities submitting sequences and velocities you would like to see included into the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

[Duff Man]

Going to throw 2 cents in (ohh shiny pennies!).  I find the idea of a people fighting over a form for a made up style rather amusing. Unless all us dorks get together and vote on a international standard there are going to be multiple interpretation .  As long as you follow the guide line for the style laid out by the SW universe( HERE THEY ARE http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_I:_Shii-Cho) what ever you come up with should be fine.  As for Shii-Cho being a beginner form, like Lucien mentioned above. There are a lot of aspects not noticed.  Once you get the movements down GREAT, But how many applications can you find for each  movement?  It is not the form that is beginner or Advanced it is the person doing the form and what they can see in it.  Lets take look at the first section of the NYjedi version:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk</a>

    How many different applications can you think of for each movement?.   Lets just take the first  two moves, how many can you see for those? Do you just see a Salutation and a Thrust or do you see much more?  Are you learning yet?

[ZequarX]

The cool thing about lightsaber combat is, there is a lot of room for interpretation.

Absouletely, and totally agree. When I went out and practiced the 1st sequence of moves, I found things I didn't like when I was flowing through each move. SO, becasue I know my body better then anyone, and what I am capable of, I tweaked certain aspects of the moves. At 100% movement, you would hardly be able to tell the difference in my sequence 1 compared to Sun's sequence 1.

I like Stephen's list of movements all the way through, and putting them down as a Shii-Cho creed is a good start. But in my personal experience, if you need to tweak a move to be more comfortable, then do it. You think every basketball player has the same jump shot? Heck no. Same with Shii-Cho. The basic principles are in place to learn the correct way to shoot a basketball or perform Shii-Cho but sometimes you need to make it your own.

So in saying, Each form needs a standard Creed to follow, and then individuals can customize it to fit their needs. This discussion has been great and I think we've made a lot of progess. Lets keep up the good work, guys!

Z