Saber Forum

i like the idea of a pure defense saber combat. any ideas what the main focus is? what the salute would be? stances?
any ideas would be great. oh, and i did look for a topic on this, but couldn't find one.

my freind is very agressive with a saber, i would like to be able to counter him every time and leave him stunned...

I am not yet done with 1/3 of the Shii-Cho, Will disect what we have when I finish Shii-Cho..

I'm sure this thread will blow up with discussion when you do!

I'll point Master Artorius to this thread... he's our Soresu guy ;)

learning to read attacks is important. Also learning to read openings is really important. People think that Soresu means you never attack, which is true to an extent, but a true Soresu practitioner should never make first contact, but always make score a hit after the opponents first technique.

For instance, watch Kenobi's duel with Grievous, that is the perfect example of a master of Soresu. Grievous makes a move, Kenobi takes a hand. Look how fast Kenobi was able to quite literally disarm Grievous.

Also his duel with Anakin, he was so patient and waited for the very last moment possible to cleave Anakin into pieces.

So a sequence from Soresu would compose of this according to my interpretation, which I drew from the eye of the storm description from The Jedi Path. Fighting multiple opponents, you would block and then counter downing each opponent calmly and efficiently.

Now the difference between Soresu and Djem So is this... Soresu waits for an opening... Djem So creates an opening by powering through the enemies defense, or by redirecting the enemies energy at them.

Watch the film like Lucien said. It's the best starting place.

Cheers.

Excellent point, Lucien, as always. So would a combination of the two forms make you damn near impossible to beat? Well I guess if you mastered both...

Well in theory yes, but you have to consider that they're two opposing philosophies.  Trying to use them both at once would be impossible, and would result in disaster.

Of course if you were skilled in both and utilized them alternately, to fit the situation, that's different.  That would be a useful idea indeed ;)

Problem with looking at the movies...

NO ONE is using Soreso or Shii-Cho or any style at all. The stunt men picked what was the best for that particular scene. And we only have a description of what Soreso should be like. So it has to be build up as a style and then we can slightly resemble it to what is used in the movies. But that is only a direction to take.

A few things are sure...

- Soreso is mentioned as a defensive style.
- It is an advance Light Saber form... so it will not copy many (if any) techniques from Shii-Cho.
- It is effective against blasters.
- The style relies on the clarevoyance part that started in Shii-Cho... to know where the strike is coming from before it happens...

Reading these lines I gather a lot of twirls can have a place in this form. Especially the ones that will cover the back area. I gather the Jedi twirl Obi-wan does in Ep I should be insterted somewhere here. And the simple close to body performed 8 twirl... as we saw Conan (Arnie) perform many many times. And all short to the body blocks would fit in here too... In this it might copy some Makashi blocks I gather.
I didn't have much time to go on further on Shii-Cho atm. But this is far future for me still.

ps. How is Makashi coming along Nero?
pps. Can you change the title to include a capital 'F'.. so all topics have the same naming system?
ppps. I like Lucien his take on this... Maybe the two forms should be created at the same time.

Lol, yea definitely! That would take hardcore skill, though because they are 2 different philosophies. Could be a fun challenge though lol

My own thoughts:

- Soresu itself isn't inherently "advanced" - its simplicity is its strength, after all.  Mastery of it (as with any form) is what I would consider an advanced version of it.  In my mind, the only inherently "advanced" form would be VII (Juyo or Vaapad), due to its tendency to "walk the line" by utilizing darker emotions.
- It is indeed based on that clairvoyance principle as seen in Shii-Cho.  It uses a calm center and an "empty" mind to react to any strike without hesitation, allowing the opponent to tire.
- The use of Soresu by Obi-Wan in ROTS is a pretty fair example of it.  Granted the technique may be off (it's a cinematic fight, after all), but the concepts are right... you can see his vigilant defense in his fights against Grievous and Anakin very clearly.

Makashi actually isn't progressing much ATM... unfortunately I haven't had a whole lot of time (travel for work this week once again).  However, I'd love to put some more work into it, as well as talk to Artorius about putting together something for Soresu when he gets time (once again, probably won't be anytime soon lol)

Of course, Lucien's input is always appreciated as well!

There aren't advanced forms, except maybe Juyo/Vapaad, and that's only advanced for Jedi because a Jedi has to learn how to utilize anger without falling to the dark side. That being said there are advanced levels of each form. The more you practice the higher level you get. I.E. the difference between a padawan executing basic levels of Shii Cho... and Kit Fisto's Shii Cho. Two different animals.

Think of each form as it's own style of martial arts... I.E. Soresu is Chinese sword while Shii Cho is Kendo. I'm not saying either of those forms represents either style of martial arts. I'm just trying to explain that each form is it's own entity. Djem So was developed from Soresu for Jedi who don't want to engage in prolonged battles. Djem So is really just a more aggressive variant of Soresu. It's different enough that it became it's own style though. Look at Anakin and Obi Wan's duel, they fight pretty similarly, but Anakin's techniques are clearly more offensive while Kenobi's are more defensive.

Forgive me for blatantly disagreeing... but Watching the movies for the forms works really well really... If you watch Maul's duel, he is clearly using Juyo, while Kenobi and Qui Gon are clearly using Ataru, both very physically demanding forms, but with different objectives.

Kenobi clearly makes a switch to Soresu in AotC and RotS you can see a visual difference between his fighting styles. We have the wonderful Nick Gilard to thank for that.

I just watched RotS, and you're right, Anakin is way more offensive. Their duel is a blast to watch... it's sad in its own way too. But Its definitely one of my favorite fights of the entire series. Kenobi made Soresu look so easy too, cuz Anakin was swinging at him hard and fast!

It is an interesting topic.

When one tries to describe a thing or a process in simple terms the details, finer elements, and most of the core of a thing is usually lost.

"Big, grey, and has a trunk"

But an elephant is so much more.

Soresu is a basic form that I would assume everyone would be expected to study at some length, after all there must be a balance to the basic foundation of skill or the house you build on it will fall.

To master any form would lend special advantage in some aspect.

Soresu mastery would be more than just "pure defense", I suspect it would be pure patience, pure counter-attack, pure focus.

In martial arts this fundamental approach is referred to as the shadow form/technique.

A flexible defense that is actually quite aggressive once engaged because it is one of glue, once you get stuck it is difficult to get it off, no matter what you do.

And once panic or frustration kicks in, then off comes a hand or a head and the Soresu user continues on.

Very true, that's what I was trying to express as well... a form, apart from Juyo, is only as "advanced" as its practitioner.


They address this in literature, stating that Form V was developed from Form III users who wished to have a more decisive end to a fight, creating openings rather than waiting for them.


I agree!  You can totally state that the movies have exaggerated fights, because we're talking film combat, but the concepts are all there.  Since the Forms were designed around specific characters, each one is intricately linked to that person's attitude and personality.  Obi-Wan is brash in his youth, using Form IV, and later is much more patient and pacifistic, which naturally fits with his Form III.  Anakin is a brute, and rather impatient, hence his use of the aggressive and forceful Form V.  Yoda's great strength in the Force allows him to propel himself at great speeds, hence his Form IV usage.  The list goes on!


This whole post is fantastic Relmeob, IMO that is one of the truest descriptions of Soresu I've ever heard.

Thank you  :)

As a fencing guy Nero Attoru, it must be hard to take when people without any fencing experience base their opinions from TV/movies.

When comparing sport fencing to what Errol Flynn did on film it is going to be a poor reference...with one being filled with flourishes and grand theatrics and the straight down the line/lane action.

It is easy to say that the Errol Flynn style is better for so many reasons...the only reason that counts is that it was scripted.

I wonder what style people would choose if they first had to experience pain from actual training and duels.

I have experienced enough weapon to flesh pain to know that I do not prefer being hit  lol.

Through the years I have found that I favor a calm and focused style, be it with grappling or shinai.

That does not make it better than another style or approach, just the one that best fits me from experience.

If we are talking about using the force and the potential to push and fly around the room, well my opinion might be different  :)

Jumping in from the Form I thread to concur with LK here -- I think that they used the word "Form" was used to describe the seven types of lightsabre combat styles was unfortunate, as it has a meaning in martial practices to usually mean one specific set/form/kata/etc.  The seven arts of combat may have been better, for each is a martial art unto its own, informed by the others and complete in its own right, with its own concepts and foundations that include the philosophical and mental (and super physical, in the case of jedi acrobatics) aspects.  So you may see different jedi doing the same 'form' rather differently, based on their exploration of that art/style.

Incidentally LK, I’ve been thinking that Chinese Straight/Scholar sword techniques would fit well for Form II, while Form IV is a great match to Chinese Broadsword.  :)

peace,

Kannik

Thanks Kannik... this has been the product of over 5 years of research and development on the lightsaber forms.

Here is what I have been able to define....

Form= style of martial arts

Sequence= kata

Velocity= sparring drill.

I am very fortunate that so much information has already been gathered by friends like you, allowing me to explore the world of SW martial arts with reams of info available to me here, on wookiepedia, and others, and merge it with my 11.5 years of martial experience.  Once I started looking at them all it seemed incongruous to me that "form" was being used the same way.  Even better for me is that it seems even richer to have each Form to be a whole school or style of martial and even philosophical arts.  :)   Plus it can mirror the way some temples worked in ancient times here on our own world. 

Now Velocity was a term I hadn't been able to pin down yet... so thank you again for these definitions, it'll definitively help me in my SW explorations.

peace,

Kannik

Form III: Soresu

I have been giving this a fair amount of thought this week.

When I first made my new light naginata, the feel of it, the natural facing, and the way that it balanced in my hands...it all fits the whole of my preferred weapon training techniques...I was born into Soresu.

I am a chess player through and through...not the read the books and follow certain moves with learned patterns...I have been an instinct player since before I won my first tournament when I was 9.

I use the basics of chess when I play pool, poker, soccer, debates, giving training, etc.

I see Soresu as chess.

Yes the basics of chess are quite easy to grasp...just about anyone can remember the moves of the pieces, the basics of get the king.

It is the extending the game out when you are on the ropes, stretching out the middle game to find that moment so the end game would be mine.

So yes the basics of Soresu is useful for just about anyone, especially in defense...but to say that Soresu is purely defense is like saying chess is a simple game.

Meet a proper player using Soresu and you will most likely be drawn into a trap...you will think all is going your way...pushing, attacking, advancing...and then the stinky strands of the web become clear...too late...your fate is no longer yours to control.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

Soresu is sticky hands, it is shadowing, it is bending, it is graceful, and it uses the myth that it is just for defense...with a sly grin, "well you are in a bit of a mess my friend...what shall I do with you now, the choice is yours...lay down your weapon or I will take it from you"

Your best bet against a strong Soresu player would be to hope for a fast match...the longer it stretches out the more he will know about you and your tells...best to get in and get out...or most likely you wont get out, unless he lets you out.

Soresu equals calm confidence in my eyes...most likely fits a mature player, because it does require patience and a clear head...but if you can stay on the path, it would be difficult to beat this level of focus IMO.

I've been playing with a light naginata... and it just screams Djem So to me... But that's the cool thing, any weapon can be utilized for any of the seven forms. Some may be more suitable than others, but that can depend on the practitioner involved.

I intend to do a video for each lightsaber variant with the Seven forms sequences. I.E. Shii Cho will have a double bladed variant, and a spear variant, etcetera.

I've thought about those ideas as well, and I do try to keep an open mind in that regard.  For instance, dual wielding and saberstaff have always struck me as more befitting of an aggressive style, since their use of two blades is very effective in overwhelming an opponent.  However, they can just as easily be used in Soresu, as Artorius has demonstrated to me on more than one occasion.

Depending on how you utilize the naginata, I'd say Djem So is a good fit - followed closely by Makashi and Shii-Cho.  As you said though, it could be used in a number of ways!

All valid points and it could be used by any style...extra reach, leverage, and the ability to create space...all welcome elements.

I am looking at it from the big man syndrome...when you are tall and large you can afford a certain measure of restraint and calmness.

The opposite could be said though...big strong guy rrrrrrraaaaaaarrrrr hulk smash!

But I am comfortable with the reach, the dual hands, and just about everything about this type of weapon...putting a light blade at the ruin just makes it that much better.

The advantages of a dual saber staff compared to a light naginata single blade is an interesting consideration.

The dual saber has always struck me as awkward due to the potential for grabbing the light blade portion...you are extremely limited it contact space...and even though you get the dual strike potential, you are still essentially fighting within the range of a normal light saber...the wrist to elbow arc is the same...surely it has advantages over a single blade is some aspects but not a single blade like a naginata.

Here is the most simple plan for dealing with a dual saber...take him out of his/her game...they will want to normally press the action with their dual striking and the constant movement partial spin...there is a central point of focus for the strike, the hands.   If the dual saber meets the light naginata end to end, the light naginata has the range and thrust advantage, having a full length to work with and not a handful of ouch at the other end...I am picturing fencing with an extra 2-3' of range.

I am over here, I strike or move or defend...my choice because I have distance...you spin or attack and close the gap...I block while taking a step to the side or back and i have distance again and you have a taste of disappointment...Soresu...stretching the middle game out...create a sense of ineffectiveness...control the situation with range and position.

Certainly the same could be used to create space, to develop attacks, etc.

Just saying my approach to the weapon and Soresu style is one of focused calm and observation...keeping the advantage of range while choosing my targets of opportunity...there are three form positions that I favor and two of them mean that the opponents thighs, shins, and hips are in grave danger...this will instinctively cause them to drop there guard for a lower protective nature, taking them out of their game, pulling them into mine...one it becomes clear that I can strike high or low without acrobatics or blinding body speed, just a simple shift of the anchor hand and or a shoulder/elbow drop...that is what I am talking about...that oh frak moment when it settles in...when their face gets that certain look...much like Judo when we roll with other styles and when they get hip tossed or shoulder thrown the first time...oh the sweet sweet panic...the wide eyed deer in the headlights expression...that is when you know they are done...their confidence is laying smashed on the floor like some much broken glass that they are afraid to step on.

That is my Soresu.

Allowing for movement and controlling the range to create the opportunity to break the opponents game plan, strategy, rhythm, and confidence...leaving them to realize they are trapped...that look when the realization sets in...when the color in their face drops a shade or two...that's when you know...what I already knew...

...the fight was over before we begun...

Soresu, I am seeing this as a spider's technique, the more I think about it...build a web or set the trap, strike when the opportunity presents itself, wrap them up, end the fight on your terms.

Hmmmm fun times  :)

Relmeob, I love that idea so much... because it shares so much of what Makashi is as well.

As I've stressed before, Makashi is so influenced by fencing it's ridiculous.  As a dueling form, it focuses on one-on-one combat, and the ability to outsmart your opponent.  Each bit of footwork and each blade movement is carefully measured and executed to bring about a master plan of sorts.  You set up the opponent as you would in chess (or Soresu), and close the trap with great speed and lethality when ready.

Let's use an example!  Good fencing requires patience and thinking several steps ahead of your opponent.  I'm a big fan of an active defense - attack in preparation being one of my favorite moves.  I retreat, feinting counterattacks and searching for the blade, while subtly altering my distance to where I want to be.  As the distance closes, the attacker gets within striking distance and often decides that his moment has come... only to run into my extended blade as I close the distance.

Now to clarify, this is only an attack in preparation if the opponent does something to give up right of way (searches for the blade, parries, hesitates), but nevertheless I maintain that a well-executed counterattack is an EXTREMELY valuable tactic.

This is only one example, and I may have digressed a bit, but the point I'm trying to make is that Soresu and Makashi both have that common base of setting up a trap... and springing it.

 ;D


There are going to be many examples of commonalities with saber styles, because as your example shows, there are a finite set of moves to work with...much like moves on the chess board.

Only so many strikes, blocks, counters, parries, etc.

It is how you chain these together.

It is how you approach the application.

Good stuff all in all. This sort of subject is one of those that catches people off guard when it finally sinks in...that saying that you heard as a kid from people a generation above yours..."the more you learn, you realize how much more there is to know" and "ignorance is bliss".

It is easy to swing a light saber with the bro's and develop a false sense of confidence, like the guy who took karate at the YMCA for 3 months when he was 12yrs old...comfortable in his knowledge that the fists of fury were his to use when ever he wanted to...then...a Poindexter beats him into next week with a protractor and a bad attitude.  

A little bit of knowledge can open a door to learn so much more or it can provide a false sense of confidence to not need any more.

If you do not have a thirst for knowledge then your cup is too full.

Soresu FTW!   lol

So, I have decided to skip ahead a little in the videos and do a little more involved Spinning tutorial for Soresu and thought I would include it here.

Our Soresu builds on Shii-Cho and Makashi philosophy. By taking the Zones from Shii-Cho and the basic ideas of Makashi ranging and blade wielding we get our "Circle of Protection" concept. It essentially boils down to being able to cover all your zones while positioning yourself with steps.

We also look at the dynamics between arcs and lines/angles. For instance, in the exercises from the vid, the steps go in a line while the blade moves in an arc. Or, you move forward while turning in a circle, straight vs. curved.

Anyhoot, here is my submission to the conversation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTZm9ydasoA#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTZm9ydasoA#ws)

Clean and well defined spins and flourishes.

Good stuff.

You can ask the masters, soresu us really what I have been going for, and your new saber video was like Christmas for me.

The slowing down on the video with the spinning and foist work combined were just incredible. I have really been working on that behind the back spin, and seeing the movement of your hand and wrists doing it. It was art, pure and simple. I cannot wait for you to do more videos. I truly wish I could go to that saber camp you have planned.

Someday I think a small con or get together for all the combat saber enthusiasts needs to be done so we can all work on these ideas and students get a chance to learn these things directly.


Points for you , I can't give you enough of them. Your videos are turning into a massive asset for everyone on these forums.

Excellent stuff guys. I'm glad to see this back at the top of the thread!! I love all the insights and JR's take on Soresu comparing it to a spider web and chess with all its glory. The video is awesome as well, can't wait to go back later today and REALLY watch it, lol. (Being at work can hender your concentration when you have to look over your shoulder haha)

What about you JR? Do you have any video's you can feed our hunger with? Darth Nonymous is taking over with the vid's these days lol. And, DN, Please keep it up bro, everything you have posted has been great!


I agree fully with this. I know reading the 2nd book on Darth Bane, Bane puts emphasis' with his apprentice the use of a saberstaff and Soresu in combination. I thought this was a really cool way to use Form III. And I know its a cartoon, but watching the 1st season of the Clone Wars was another cool way to see how they animate Obi-Wan's techniques and moves...since he is the Master of Soresu :)

Thank you. It's nice to hear everyone's benefiting from them. I is also nice to have one's work appreciated.

I'll try to get the Soresu basics up soon, but I',m finishing up the Shii-Cho Dulon for the summer camp kids. It might be a bit. But you never know.

I would love to see other folks interpretations as well.

MAN! Thats even better when you really get to watch the video! DN, you never dissappoint brotha!

The slow down on this is gonna really help me achieve that back swing/spin that me and countless others want to learn or have attempted to learn by trying to disloacte the wrist for such a move... KIDDING :) but seeing it done fast for the 1st time tripped me out lol.

I wish you had lightsaber academy's everywhere, DN :( I know there is a decent space for rent over by me, and all that screams at me is PARKOUR and LIGHTSABERS...maybe even a healthy mix of both. I really want to bring something like this into the community and establish myself like any other martial arts gym... *sigh* Maybe one day lol.

Back to Soresu...

Besides Makashi, which is a really comfortable and easy form for me, Soresu lands right up there for fav's. I've always had a passion for spins and florishes and look foward to later days when I'm tearing it up, Soresu style! Reading about JR's spider web analogy and talking about how Soresu is about setting traps and letting your opponent walk right into it... it really is a breath of fresh air isn't it? Seeing your opponent take the bate and have the fight be over that quickly... beauty at work.

My cousin and I were practicing Soresu techniques the other day where we would make one attack, and the other defend/counter and create an opening for a strike; we eventually got up to where you had to defend 10 random strikes and on the 10th strike, counter and go in the finisher. I thought this was a good drill to get more defensively sound and then there's the whole counter attack move that could be done on the 4th strike..the 7th...the 25th strike...whatever or whenever you saw fit. Besides this, I'd like to see if anyone else has drills or unorthodox ways to train that would pertain to Form III. And I know you said you were busy finishing up the Shii-Cho stuff Darth Nonymous, but anytime you can post some more drills/spins/florishes for Form III, we would greatly appreciate it :)

Again, I am in tota, jaw dropping, awe! Thank you DN for this video.

I started my lightsaber training using the videos posted by DN on Shii-Cho basics. I knew that I needed some basic foundations and a place to start, and Shii-Cho is a great place. But I also knew that I would eventually move on to a different form. I never really could figure out which way I wanted to go. Makashi, while such a big topic here and (it seems) a favorite among you, is not for me. Djem So is too aggressive and, honestly, I couldnt find too many things on it. The other forms such as Shien, Vaapad, and Ataru seem to really be out of my reach at the moment.

So I have decided, with help from this topic, that I will be moving into Soresu as my main form. I still have a lot to learn from Shii-Cho, but at least now I know which direction I would like to move into when it's time.

Again, awesome video. This is awesome!!

Darth Nonymous demonstrating advanced Soresu techiniques.

(http://i.imgur.com/VKTVr.jpg) (http://imgur.com/VKTVr)



Force enhanced speed allows him to avoid projectiles simply by side stepping them, seemingly without traveling through the intervening space.

(http://i.imgur.com/bnX8U.jpg) (http://imgur.com/bnX8U)

Ah yes, it's very acrobatic.
Ataru with a hint of Soresu then.

I like this. I want to be able to do this.. but first I need to master Shii-Cho. :)

It's been a while since anyone contributed here. So, Nero and I when last we got together decided to make a pair of videos. He'll upload his and I'll upload mine. Here is a basic video on the concept of the Eye of the Storm. Everything is done slowly so that maximum mimicry can be derived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hcJcCIrg0k#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hcJcCIrg0k#ws)

And you did it in purple! Point to you!

Great job! That is an awesome moveset. This is why I like Soresu!

Excellent Master Vindyl! It has been some time side we have seen anything for you guys, I can't wait to see Nero's video.

The lighting in the video is pretty nice. The white garage contrasts nicely and gives a backlit effect.

Again, very nice performance.

I agree, he really pulled it off nicely.  He was trying to keep it a bit slower this time for the sake of instruction, and I think it turned out well.  Nice job Master Artorius!

And the backlighting was just us having some fun with a bit of artistic flair... we figured it gave a mysterious look  ;D

I posted my own vid in my Makashi thread here if anyone is interested:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7347.msg104248#msg104248 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7347.msg104248#msg104248)

The lighting was fun and making the videos even more so. A shame that we can't get together more often to actually form a curriculum and film more. Thanks for the support!

A curriculum?? That would be stellar. Something like.. you post an instructional video and within 7 days, we all should post our own, demonstrating the technique. I could go for that! Unfortunately, I don't have a filming partner except my kids, and most times we are just out and about doing things. But still, that sort of system is something that I personally could get behind!

Well done Master Artorius! That's gonna be a nightmare to illustrate... I can't wait!  ;D

Got another Soresu video up. Paired with the Shien form here: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7696.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7696.0)