Form III: Soresu

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

i like the idea of a pure defense saber combat. any ideas what the main focus is? what the salute would be? stances?
any ideas would be great. oh, and i did look for a topic on this, but couldn't find one.

my freind is very agressive with a saber, i would like to be able to counter him every time and leave him stunned...

[Stephen Strange]

I am not yet done with 1/3 of the Shii-Cho, Will disect what we have when I finish Shii-Cho..

[Master Nero Attoru]

I am not yet done with 1/3 of the Shii-Cho, Will disect what we have when I finish Shii-Cho..

I'm sure this thread will blow up with discussion when you do!

I'll point Master Artorius to this thread... he's our Soresu guy

[Master Lucien Kane]

learning to read attacks is important. Also learning to read openings is really important. People think that Soresu means you never attack, which is true to an extent, but a true Soresu practitioner should never make first contact, but always make score a hit after the opponents first technique.

For instance, watch Kenobi's duel with Grievous, that is the perfect example of a master of Soresu. Grievous makes a move, Kenobi takes a hand. Look how fast Kenobi was able to quite literally disarm Grievous.

Also his duel with Anakin, he was so patient and waited for the very last moment possible to cleave Anakin into pieces.

So a sequence from Soresu would compose of this according to my interpretation, which I drew from the eye of the storm description from The Jedi Path. Fighting multiple opponents, you would block and then counter downing each opponent calmly and efficiently.

Now the difference between Soresu and Djem So is this... Soresu waits for an opening... Djem So creates an opening by powering through the enemies defense, or by redirecting the enemies energy at them.

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

Watch the film like Lucien said. It's the best starting place.

Cheers.

[ZequarX]

Now the difference between Soresu and Djem So is this... Soresu waits for an opening... Djem So creates an opening by powering through the enemies defense, or by redirecting the enemies energy at them.

Excellent point, Lucien, as always. So would a combination of the two forms make you damn near impossible to beat? Well I guess if you mastered both...

[Master Nero Attoru]

Excellent point, Lucien, as always. So would a combination of the two forms make you damn near impossible to beat? Well I guess if you mastered both...

Well in theory yes, but you have to consider that they're two opposing philosophies.  Trying to use them both at once would be impossible, and would result in disaster.

Of course if you were skilled in both and utilized them alternately, to fit the situation, that's different.  That would be a useful idea indeed

[Stephen Strange]

Problem with looking at the movies...

NO ONE is using Soreso or Shii-Cho or any style at all. The stunt men picked what was the best for that particular scene. And we only have a description of what Soreso should be like. So it has to be build up as a style and then we can slightly resemble it to what is used in the movies. But that is only a direction to take.

A few things are sure...

- Soreso is mentioned as a defensive style.
- It is an advance Light Saber form... so it will not copy many (if any) techniques from Shii-Cho.
- It is effective against blasters.
- The style relies on the clarevoyance part that started in Shii-Cho... to know where the strike is coming from before it happens...

Reading these lines I gather a lot of twirls can have a place in this form. Especially the ones that will cover the back area. I gather the Jedi twirl Obi-wan does in Ep I should be insterted somewhere here. And the simple close to body performed 8 twirl... as we saw Conan (Arnie) perform many many times. And all short to the body blocks would fit in here too... In this it might copy some Makashi blocks I gather.
I didn't have much time to go on further on Shii-Cho atm. But this is far future for me still.

ps. How is Makashi coming along Nero?
pps. Can you change the title to include a capital 'F'.. so all topics have the same naming system?
ppps. I like Lucien his take on this... Maybe the two forms should be created at the same time.

[ZequarX]

Of course if you were skilled in both and utilized them alternately, to fit the situation, that's different.  That would be a useful idea indeed

Lol, yea definitely! That would take hardcore skill, though because they are 2 different philosophies. Could be a fun challenge though lol

[Master Nero Attoru]

Problem with looking at the movies...

NO ONE is using Soreso or Shii-Cho or any style at all. The stunt men picked what was the best for that particular scene. And we only have a description of what Soreso should be like. So it has to be build up as a style and then we can slightly resemble it to what is used in the movies. But that is only a direction to take.

A few things are sure...

- Soreso is mentioned as a defensive style.
- It is an advance Light Saber form... so it will not copy many (if any) techniques from Shii-Cho.
- It is effective against blasters.
- The style relies on the clarevoyance part that started in Shii-Cho... to know where the strike is coming from before it happens...

Reading these lines I gather a lot of twirls can have a place in this form. Especially the ones that will cover the back area. I gather the Jedi twirl Obi-wan does in Ep I should be insterted somewhere here. And the simple close to body performed 8 twirl... as we saw Conan (Arnie) perform many many times. And all short to the body blocks would fit in here too... In this it might copy some Makashi blocks I gather.
I didn't have much time to go on further on Shii-Cho atm. But this is far future for me still.

ps. How is Makashi coming along Nero?
pps. Can you change the title to include a capital 'F'.. so all topics have the same naming system?
ppps. I like Lucien his take on this... Maybe the two forms should be created at the same time.

My own thoughts:

- Soresu itself isn't inherently "advanced" - its simplicity is its strength, after all.  Mastery of it (as with any form) is what I would consider an advanced version of it.  In my mind, the only inherently "advanced" form would be VII (Juyo or Vaapad), due to its tendency to "walk the line" by utilizing darker emotions.
- It is indeed based on that clairvoyance principle as seen in Shii-Cho.  It uses a calm center and an "empty" mind to react to any strike without hesitation, allowing the opponent to tire.
- The use of Soresu by Obi-Wan in ROTS is a pretty fair example of it.  Granted the technique may be off (it's a cinematic fight, after all), but the concepts are right... you can see his vigilant defense in his fights against Grievous and Anakin very clearly.

Makashi actually isn't progressing much ATM... unfortunately I haven't had a whole lot of time (travel for work this week once again).  However, I'd love to put some more work into it, as well as talk to Artorius about putting together something for Soresu when he gets time (once again, probably won't be anytime soon lol)

Of course, Lucien's input is always appreciated as well!

[Master Lucien Kane]

There aren't advanced forms, except maybe Juyo/Vapaad, and that's only advanced for Jedi because a Jedi has to learn how to utilize anger without falling to the dark side. That being said there are advanced levels of each form. The more you practice the higher level you get. I.E. the difference between a padawan executing basic levels of Shii Cho... and Kit Fisto's Shii Cho. Two different animals.

Think of each form as it's own style of martial arts... I.E. Soresu is Chinese sword while Shii Cho is Kendo. I'm not saying either of those forms represents either style of martial arts. I'm just trying to explain that each form is it's own entity. Djem So was developed from Soresu for Jedi who don't want to engage in prolonged battles. Djem So is really just a more aggressive variant of Soresu. It's different enough that it became it's own style though. Look at Anakin and Obi Wan's duel, they fight pretty similarly, but Anakin's techniques are clearly more offensive while Kenobi's are more defensive.

Forgive me for blatantly disagreeing... but Watching the movies for the forms works really well really... If you watch Maul's duel, he is clearly using Juyo, while Kenobi and Qui Gon are clearly using Ataru, both very physically demanding forms, but with different objectives.

Kenobi clearly makes a switch to Soresu in AotC and RotS you can see a visual difference between his fighting styles. We have the wonderful Nick Gilard to thank for that.

[ZequarX]

Djem So was developed from Soresu for Jedi who don't want to engage in prolonged battles. Djem So is really just a more aggressive variant of Soresu. It's different enough that it became it's own style though. Look at Anakin and Obi Wan's duel, they fight pretty similarly, but Anakin's techniques are clearly more offensive while Kenobi's are more defensive.

I just watched RotS, and you're right, Anakin is way more offensive. Their duel is a blast to watch... it's sad in its own way too. But Its definitely one of my favorite fights of the entire series. Kenobi made Soresu look so easy too, cuz Anakin was swinging at him hard and fast!

[Master Rel]

It is an interesting topic.

When one tries to describe a thing or a process in simple terms the details, finer elements, and most of the core of a thing is usually lost.

"Big, grey, and has a trunk"

But an elephant is so much more.

Soresu is a basic form that I would assume everyone would be expected to study at some length, after all there must be a balance to the basic foundation of skill or the house you build on it will fall.

To master any form would lend special advantage in some aspect.

Soresu mastery would be more than just "pure defense", I suspect it would be pure patience, pure counter-attack, pure focus.

In martial arts this fundamental approach is referred to as the shadow form/technique.

A flexible defense that is actually quite aggressive once engaged because it is one of glue, once you get stuck it is difficult to get it off, no matter what you do.

And once panic or frustration kicks in, then off comes a hand or a head and the Soresu user continues on.

[Master Nero Attoru]

There aren't advanced forms, except maybe Juyo/Vapaad, and that's only advanced for Jedi because a Jedi has to learn how to utilize anger without falling to the dark side. That being said there are advanced levels of each form. The more you practice the higher level you get. I.E. the difference between a padawan executing basic levels of Shii Cho... and Kit Fisto's Shii Cho. Two different animals.

Very true, that's what I was trying to express as well... a form, apart from Juyo, is only as "advanced" as its practitioner.

Think of each form as it's own style of martial arts... I.E. Soresu is Chinese sword while Shii Cho is Kendo. I'm not saying either of those forms represents either style of martial arts. I'm just trying to explain that each form is it's own entity. Djem So was developed from Soresu for Jedi who don't want to engage in prolonged battles. Djem So is really just a more aggressive variant of Soresu. It's different enough that it became it's own style though. Look at Anakin and Obi Wan's duel, they fight pretty similarly, but Anakin's techniques are clearly more offensive while Kenobi's are more defensive.

They address this in literature, stating that Form V was developed from Form III users who wished to have a more decisive end to a fight, creating openings rather than waiting for them.

Forgive me for blatantly disagreeing... but Watching the movies for the forms works really well really... If you watch Maul's duel, he is clearly using Juyo, while Kenobi and Qui Gon are clearly using Ataru, both very physically demanding forms, but with different objectives.

Kenobi clearly makes a switch to Soresu in AotC and RotS you can see a visual difference between his fighting styles. We have the wonderful Nick Gilard to thank for that.

I agree!  You can totally state that the movies have exaggerated fights, because we're talking film combat, but the concepts are all there.  Since the Forms were designed around specific characters, each one is intricately linked to that person's attitude and personality.  Obi-Wan is brash in his youth, using Form IV, and later is much more patient and pacifistic, which naturally fits with his Form III.  Anakin is a brute, and rather impatient, hence his use of the aggressive and forceful Form V.  Yoda's great strength in the Force allows him to propel himself at great speeds, hence his Form IV usage.  The list goes on!

It is an interesting topic.

When one tries to describe a thing or a process in simple terms the details, finer elements, and most of the core of a thing is usually lost.

"Big, grey, and has a trunk"

But an elephant is so much more.

Soresu is a basic form that I would assume everyone would be expected to study at some length, after all there must be a balance to the basic foundation of skill or the house you build on it will fall.

To master any form would lend special advantage in some aspect.

Soresu mastery would be more than just "pure defense", I suspect it would be pure patience, pure counter-attack, pure focus.

In martial arts this fundamental approach is referred to as the shadow form/technique.

A flexible defense that is actually quite aggressive once engaged because it is one of glue, once you get stuck it is difficult to get it off, no matter what you do.

And once panic or frustration kicks in, then off comes a hand or a head and the Soresu user continues on.

This whole post is fantastic Relmeob, IMO that is one of the truest descriptions of Soresu I've ever heard.

[Master Rel]

Thank you 

As a fencing guy Nero Attoru, it must be hard to take when people without any fencing experience base their opinions from TV/movies.

When comparing sport fencing to what Errol Flynn did on film it is going to be a poor reference...with one being filled with flourishes and grand theatrics and the straight down the line/lane action.

It is easy to say that the Errol Flynn style is better for so many reasons...the only reason that counts is that it was scripted.

I wonder what style people would choose if they first had to experience pain from actual training and duels.

I have experienced enough weapon to flesh pain to know that I do not prefer being hit  lol.

Through the years I have found that I favor a calm and focused style, be it with grappling or shinai.

That does not make it better than another style or approach, just the one that best fits me from experience.

If we are talking about using the force and the potential to push and fly around the room, well my opinion might be different