spinning around in saber combat

[beans22]

my question is why is it that on caines video about spins that he turns around showing his back? I am definitely not criticizing him at all and he makes it look very effective but then why is this when I hear all the sword "experts" on the internet always say never turn your back so my questions are why is it used in  lightsaber sparring and barely any other form of sword fighting? and how can it be used effectively because swinging blind is a very dangerous thing to do.

[navajas]

I've never swung a blade around in a real fight, but I've landed plenty of spinning kicks and back fists. Someone who knows how to do this is not swinging blind! You get momentum, a bit of misdirection and confusion, and a lot of power doing so. It most instances, against a qualified opponent, spinning attacks are not high percentage techniques, but they can work, and contrary to much popular belief do not leave you vulnerable: The outcomes are almost always either a quality strike, or your opponent moving out of the way. Even very, very good fighters, good enough to back up out of the way and let you miss, are either not fast enough to suddenly rush in to the gaping opening most people pretend to be there, or, are enough taken aback to just watch you miss and reset. Watch some K-1 or MMA. Spinning strikes typically miss with no ill effects or land with great power.

I fence and fight, but I don't find a lot applicable that crosses the gap because I fight for real and fence for fun. Fencing's a game and you definitely don't want to be spinning around. And the swords that fencing use are quick and light, not choppy. They don't really benefit from the added momentum of a spin.

As far as real light sabers go, I don't a spinning technique would be very helpful. Leverage and power buy you nothing with a weightless infinitely sharp energy blade. Dig it? My backfist is nasty, and I could whip a sword around with evil velocity, but, why? I'm not holding a lever, I could slice through my opponent by simply dropping the blade on him and letting gravity carry it through. I can see them used for misdirection and surprise, but, I don't know, seems hard to surprise a Jedi.

[Caine]

my question is why is it that on caines video about spins that he turns around showing his back? I am definitely not criticizing him at all and he makes it look very effective but then why is this when I hear all the sword "experts" on the internet always say never turn your back so my questions are why is it used in  lightsaber sparring and barely any other form of sword fighting? and how can it be used effectively because swinging blind is a very dangerous thing to do.

If spinning is dangerous in combat, then why don't the eliminate spinning back kicks, spinning hook kicks and other spin kicks in various martial art styles?

Because as long as the practitioner is skilled enough, the spin can add tremendous power with building momentum.

And remember, saberplay is not the same thing as real sword play. Certain aspects are taken from it, but it also has other attributes added to it. Think of saberplay as a mixed martial art per se. 

[Novastar]

I'm going to have to agree with Caine on this to some extent, considering that you see TONS of spinning hook/wheel kicks in "modern day" TKD bouting--even at high levels (spins add power when executed with great speed).  F=ma.

Now, regarding "actual" swordplay or sport sword combat (i.e. fencing, kendo, etc.)... you're not going to see that as much.  Firstly, in western style fencing (saber, epee, foil), you aren't allowed to turn your back to your opponent.  So that's out.  Secondly, I can tell you that the tempo of fencing (well... advanced/high level fencing) is so quick... you wouldn't be very successful using body spinning actions--they take too much TIME.  Fast as they are.  When executed properly.

You will have better luck using a circular type of strike with the weapon (all while facing the opponent)--since it can accomplish nearly the same thing WITHOUT the body spin.  Most of the reason being--leverage & torque/rotation principle...

If you don't understand what I'm saying... don't worry too much, but just think about and/or try this:  Go get a 7" metal rod, hold it in hand and whack something you can "assess the damage" (safely) on a few times.  Now... get a 36" (3 foot) metal rod, same material & width... and give do the "assess the damage" drill again.

I know it's probably OBVIOUS now, but... really... you cannot manipulate your legs & arms in the more fine-tuned ways that a sword-type weapon can be manipulated.  Just as soon as a SWORD cannot get the crazy angles and wild "whippiness" that a whip-type weapon (or even flexible bamboo lengths!) can.

So it ends up pretty obvious why you see a ton of "spinning hooks" in TKD--which cause some SERIOUS KNOCKOUTS (go look on y-tube if you like??)... and yet you will NOT see a ton of "spinning sword" actions in Kendo, fencing, etc.

Now... I *COULD* be wrong, because I try to be open to learning all the time, but... really.  I mean why doesn't the baseball batter just 360 swing it?    Ball comes in too bloody fast. 

[The_Night]

I think it's all about the realism factor. sword or saber sparring is just that, sparring. if you mess up and get hit not really big deal, wheras in a "real" sword combat of you try a spin and get hit well... its a bit bigger of a deal. I think it's more comfortable in saber sparring because it's more of a game than a fight. same with kumite, it's more playing a game then it is trying to actually fight someone. and (although we rarely do spins in my style) nobody's ever been hurt by one that i can remember. but spin backfists are illeagel in our rules, not kicks though

[navajas]

Just want to emphasize again, and I'm not sure how you are using the term "kumite", but in one vs. one fighting that is not what most would consider a "game", spinning strikes are definitely legitimate techniques. In fact, in some ways, the more removed you are from a game like Olympic TaeKwonDo, the more useful they become. TKD players expect them and know what to do. But I mean, even they get caught off guard sometimes. As you travel on down the fighting spectrum you get to folks less and less familiar with them. In top echelons, championship MMA in the UFC (game or not, your call) you'll see spinning strikes attempted, landed or not, and, regardless, usually met with no counter whatsoever.

The techniques just get a bad rap from watching and listening to people who over utilize, or over emphasize them. Lots of rule sets illegalize spinning strikes. It's not because they don't work, it's because they're dangerous.

[Ultra]

I hear swordsmen quote the "Only turn your back to a corpse" line quite a bit.  They say this primarily because you can't see what's behind you, but they are swordsmen, not Jedi.  A Jedi doesn't need to see his opponent to fight them.  Remember Luke:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owvpRNzoaVU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owvpRNzoaVU</a>

Being able to stretch out with your feelings and being aware of everything around you alleviates one of the the apparent disadvantages of turning your back to an enemy in combat.

[Caine]

Just want to emphasize again, and I'm not sure how you are using the term "kumite", but in one vs. one fighting that is not what most would consider a "game", spinning strikes are definitely legitimate techniques. In fact, in some ways, the more removed you are from a game like Olympic TaeKwonDo, the more useful they become. TKD players expect them and know what to do. But I mean, even they get caught off guard sometimes. As you travel on down the fighting spectrum you get to folks less and less familiar with them. In top echelons, championship MMA in the UFC (game or not, your call) you'll see spinning strikes attempted, landed or not, and, regardless, usually met with no counter whatsoever.

The techniques just get a bad rap from watching and listening to people who over utilize, or over emphasize them. Lots of rule sets illegalize spinning strikes. It's not because they don't work, it's because they're dangerous.

Again, it's all subject to your personal preference.

I say: If you think that spinning strikes are useless in a match, don't use them.
          If you think they are effective and like them, then use them.

It's all about one's skill level and their willingness to do or not do it. One should NOT generalize and say it's ineffective for ANYONE just because of their personal experience.

[navajas]

Again, it's all subject to your personal preference.

I say: If you think that spinning strikes are useless in a match, don't use them.
          If you think they are effective and like them, then use them.

It's all about one's skill level and their willingness to do or not do it. One should NOT generalize and say it's ineffective for ANYONE just because of their personal experience.

I'm not really sure if you think you're disagreeing with me or not. Both your posts seem to be phrased that way, even though I think we're in agreement. You seem to telling me not to generalize and tell people not to use spinning techniques, even though I don't think I am. Am I? I don't think I am. I don't know. I know I have a personal predilection for them. Regardless, I'll just run with it and say, right on, man!  

[ThreadJack]

I spin, because it's fun.

[Caine]

I'm not really sure if you think you're disagreeing with me or not. Both your posts seem to be phrased that way, even though I think we're in agreement. You seem to telling me not to generalize and tell people not to use spinning techniques, even though I don't think I am. Am I? I don't think I am. I don't know. I know I have a personal predilection for them. Regardless, I'll just run with it and say, right on, man!  

No, I wasn't. I was talking in general terms for the masses, lol.

[JdiKnhtJMH]

Being able to stretch out with your feelings and being aware of everything around you alleviates one of the the apparent disadvantages of turning your back to an enemy in combat.

I kept looking for the "like" button til I realized this isnt facebook lol.

Anywho, my combat style rarely involves a spin since I'm usually sticking to Soresu or Makashi. However, once in a while, I'll go Djem So and do that since more intricate movements are a part of that style. However I dont think its fair to say such and such a move is bad because it leaves you open. A strike from high over the head leaves your lower body unprotected, and yet that's a fundamental movement of Djem So. Any heavy attack move is going to have its vulnerabilities and openings for a counter attack. A skilled duelist can help negate those vulnerabilities, and use such moves to the best effect.

So I don't see spins as being a bad idea at all, and for a more theatrical style such as saber combat, I think they have a definite place in Juyo, Ataru, or Djem So.

[Master BStone]

in my experience with some western sword arts theres certainly some footwork actions that translate directly to "spinning" sometimes in place but most certainly in response to a direction change or as a compensation for the opponent's positioning. moving the blade and your body can have some seriously strong benefits, and everyone's mileage will vary of course.

[Gulcasa]

After I tested my Ultrasabers with my brother.. I figured out.. that you can win easily with spins, when the enemy isn't prepared to that.
Spin -> Stab.. right into his heart.. -> WIN

[John-Michael]

If spinning is dangerous in combat, then why don't the eliminate spinning back kicks, spinning hook kicks and other spin kicks in various martial art styles?

Because those martial arts schools teach fancy moves that look cool, even though they aren't very practical. They do this to impress the ignorant into signing up for classes.

Because as long as the practitioner is skilled enough, the spin can add tremendous power with building momentum.

And there's the hook: "Spend more money on martial arts classes and you'll be doing spinning jump outside reap kicks (and maybe throw in some quadruple axels while you're at it)."

In reality, particularly these days where people are learning more about mixed martial arts, spin moves have a low effectiveness to risk ratio.  That is, they RARELY connect, and even then, accuracy is always an issue because you are spinning; your eyes leave your target, and while you spin around, the target has the opportunity to move out of the way and/or do something else besides stand around and wait for you to hit him.  And when you miss, you are usually off-balance and otherwise open to counter-attack.

My humble opinion: spin strikes are not worth the risk.