spinning around in saber combat

[Master Nero Attoru]

I don't have the experience in martial arts to say whether or not a spinning technique provides adequate force to compensate for the slower and more uncertain attack, but I can speak from my own experience in fencing.

As was stated, turning your back is against the rules in fencing.  Two reasons spring to mind:

1.  To do so was considered insulting in a duel (back when we used real swords)
2.  To do so was also considered stupid in a duel (exposing your back) as it gave you no real advantage

Fencing (apart from sabre) utilizes thrusting, as it was mostly derived from rapier combat.  This effectively means spinning gives you no real advantage, and instead opens you up to attack.

Naturally my fencing background makes me inclined to avoid such flashy maneuvers in lightsaber combat, but I can see how they could be beneficial.  I do, however, use them in choreography - they're a great way to demonstrate aggression and make the fight look cool.

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

Nero as always is right on the mark.  There are few instances where spinning gives you a real advantage, but some of them might include:

• A single spin to throw off your opponents timing.
• A spin used to redirect an attack that then builds momentum into an attack of your own.

[Master Lucien Kane]

The problem is, you can't generalize about martial arts. Every fighter/martial artist/guy with a light saber is different. Each and every one of us has a different physiological makeup that will give us a predisposition for certain fighting styles. That is not to say someone who isn't flexible can't learn Kung Fu, or someone who is really small can't learn Shodokan. However a big strong guy or gal would be learning how to utilize their strength in styles like Shodokan while limber fast flexible people would do well to learn something like Jeet Kun Do or Kung Fu.


My point is, just because you can't spin in a fight or a duel; that doesn't mean that someone else can't use that to great success. The fact of the matter is that most people just don't train their spinning techniques. I used to use spinning backfists a lot in my early martial arts days. It looked wild and untame, but it worked for me really well. My trick was, I only used the spin if someone tried to off balance me. Then I would be in a prime position for a spin, and I would know where my opponent was.

Flash forward to my lightsaber sparring days, I want my sparring to look a lot like the movies. Heck the movies pretty much blended every sword discipline into one and then added some stylized combat methods so why not? What I ended up learning is that at least for me, spinning and flourishing can accomplish a lot.

1. if you can train to a point where you can flourish and make contact mid flourish without losing your grip... then you now have some interesting avenues of attack.

2. Spinning can do several things if you know how to use them; you can break rhythm, create an opening in someone's defense, or check your surroundings if you are being pushed back.

3. You can gain momentum for an attack.

4. Both spins and flourishes can be highly useful when maneuvering a sparring match involving more than one opponent.

I use a trick to spin without getting hit, it works for me, and it will work if you train with it. I got the idea from both the Star Wars movies, and the movie 300. If you watch the Spartans (I know some of the fight scenes were cheesey) When they turn their backs to one enemy, usually it's to take on another opponent. They always put their shields to their back. If you watch Star Wars, many of the flourishes have a behind the back spin. If you watch Dooku, he almost always catches his opponent's blade before he spins and maintains that control through the spin.

So what I started doing if I spin my saber goes in a behind the back spin, so that I have a guard behind my back. I know I know it's cheating, but it works really well. Also this will still generate roughly the same momentum if not more than a regular spin. Also if you really want to cheat catch your opponents blade and push it down as you spin now you know exactly where your opponent is, and where their blade is. Essentially you can spin without as much risk as a regular spin.

[Jenny]

Human physiology is basically the same.  We all have two eyes that point in the same direction.  We all have a circulatory system. Unless something has happened to them previously, we all have two arms that are oriented to be most effective in front of us.  And so on.

In combat, the most dangerous thing of all is to lose situational awareness. Yes, it is helpful to know if there are other opponents closing in on you from another direction, but it's more helpful to stay aware of what the person you're actually fighting is doing.

All of the situations Mr. Kane references are cinematic, which is to say, choreographed. If I've practiced a fight routine with my theatrical partners and know what they're going to do, I'm not going to be surprised while my back is turned.

On the other hand, as someone who has years of experience in unchoreographed matches with single sword, dual sword, and sword and shield, I can tell you that your opponent will never do what you expect them to.  And putting your shield behind you is a great way to end up with a fabulous bruise, and a "this one time, I was so stupid!" story.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I respectfully disagree, while the shield behind your back example is unrealistic. The principle is the same. I guard my back or disregard my opponent's blade when I spin. It works, you can't tell me something doesn't work when I've used it to great success. As far as physiology goes, I'm meaning subtle differences. Not everyone is as fast, as flexible or as strong as everyone else. It's great to be strong, or fast, or flexible... Heck it's great to be all three, but if you aren't there is still a martial arts style that will work for you.

My point is that everyone is different, while one person may have never had experience with spinning in a fight others have. That is one reason that these forums are awesome, the meeting and exchanging of knowledge.

While I am working on a fanfilm, I have little to no experience in choreographing fights. All of what I do is sparring, and when I decide to learn a new technique I test it to the max. I make sure I get punished for every mistake I make while executing a new technique. That way when I get it down, I know the pitfalls of the technique and when to use it. I'm just saying that we can't be so quick to dismiss things as cinematic, because the influence came from somewhere.

[John-Michael]

Human physiology is basically the same.  We all have two eyes that point in the same direction.  We all have a circulatory system. Unless something has happened to them previously, we all have two arms that are oriented to be most effective in front of us.  And so on.

In combat, the most dangerous thing of all is to lose situational awareness. Yes, it is helpful to know if there are other opponents closing in on you from another direction, but it's more helpful to stay aware of what the person you're actually fighting is doing.

All of the situations Mr. Kane references are cinematic, which is to say, choreographed. If I've practiced a fight routine with my theatrical partners and know what they're going to do, I'm not going to be surprised while my back is turned.

On the other hand, as someone who has years of experience in unchoreographed matches with single sword, dual sword, and sword and shield, I can tell you that your opponent will never do what you expect them to.  And putting your shield behind you is a great way to end up with a fabulous bruise, and a "this one time, I was so stupid!" story.

Yep, what she said.  +1

But to those who feel they can incorporate spin moves in combat (i.e., full speed, full power, with intent to cause serious bodily injury) situations, all I can say is, uh, hey, it's your life so it's your choice.  If it works great, you looked cool for a fraction of a second.  If it ends up in disaster for you, you may have to spend a few months recuperating afterwards (f you're lucky).  If you ask me, that's not a smart bet, bro.

If you're doing it in a choreographed routine, or during light sparring with a friend (where you both use less than 100% speed and power, with no intent to harm), all I have to say is: "be careful and have fun!"

[navajas]

Man, when I was fighting I would love to have had more people think just like you. A trained fighter is not swinging blind, nor are they off balance when they throw a spinning backfist or kick. They / We are just not. Ever seen a ballet dancer? Ever seen K1? Watched MMA? Not only do I "feel" I can throw and land spinning attacks, I've knocked fighters expecting them right the hell out using them. Have I ever missed? Hell yes. But again that lapse of time and manifest vulnerability after that miss that laymen think exists, pretty much just doesn't. So, you miss. OK. Your opponent watches you miss. Occasionally a fighter might stumble. Ok. So? Most often, nothing, that's what so. You are still too dangerous to just suddenly rush like an idiot.

Summary: Low(er) percentage? Yes. High risk? Not really, at least not in the terms usually considered. More at stake in terms of a fight is the energy expenditure. That's more what's being weighed in your mind comparing percentage, risk and reward. Cung Lee might be throwing spinning kicks after 10 minutes. No one I know is, that's for damned sure.

Most of the "kicks don't work, spins don't work" common man wisdom comes from the backlash of people realizing all those stylized mystical martial arts that had received good PR for centuries were applicably impotent. That notion has continued and progressed well past its usefulness to the point that now we have the same people who thought Shoalin Monks could chi slap dudes from across the room and beat up 15 armed soldiers with their bare hands suddenly think I can't break ribs with a spinning side kick or put them to sleep with a backfist.

Bah. I'm repeating myself. Yes, in the end, I agree, nerds twirling around their lightsabers for fun on camera do not exhibit martially relevant techniques. That does not mean they are, by definition, poor attacks. They are not to "look cool" anymore than a superman punch.

[Jenny]

But again that lapse of time and manifest vulnerability after that miss that laymen think exists, pretty much just doesn't.

It's not the time after, it's the time during that makes the technique weak.  It's the sheer mechanics, the physics of it.  It will always take more time for a fighter of a given skill to get their body around in a complete (or even three-quarter) circle than it will take their opponent of the same skill level to move their arms / weapon enough to hit the spinner in the back.

[navajas]

It's not the time after, it's the time during that makes the technique weak.  It's the sheer mechanics, the physics of it.  It will always take more time for a fighter of a given skill to get their body around in a complete (or even three-quarter) circle than it will take their opponent of the same skill level to move their arms / weapon enough to hit the spinner in the back.

Nonsense. What you, or anyone else has time to do while I throw a spinning backfist is either keep your guard up and look to counter, step back, or get caught TRYING to attack and hope I miss. That's it. If you don't know that via experience there's nothing I can do to convince you. Go ahead and try and find a video of a fighter getting hit to effect DURING their backfist. In a fight. Not practicing some form or one step or something. I've never seen it happen. Not once. I've fought a lot, both in pads and not. Never happened. I've watched a LOT of intense full contact fights. Never happened. Not once.

I am not convinced you understand how fast a kick or backfist can happen. Here:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az_2me8pIjQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az_2me8pIjQ</a>

At 0:37 is a pretty decent backfist. It's not the defining backfist in world history, just a pretty good backfist. The entire strike can take less than 1/4 of a second.

In fact, please, PLEASE, go back in time and convince everyone I ever fought to throw a nice big straight right as I spin backfist. Ha!

[Master Nero Attoru]

It's not the time after, it's the time during that makes the technique weak.  It's the sheer mechanics, the physics of it.  It will always take more time for a fighter of a given skill to get their body around in a complete (or even three-quarter) circle than it will take their opponent of the same skill level to move their arms / weapon enough to hit the spinner in the back.

I agree to a certain extent.  Obviously spinning is putting extra motion into your attack and will therefore take up more time and energy - this is the primary argument against such techniques.  However, the question of whether or not this is a significant lapse is very dependent on each fighter's distance, reflexes, reach, etc.  There are a lot of factors which can factor into whether or not such an attack, a spinning hook kick for instance, will be successful or not.

Realize that I did indeed start this discussion on the non-spinning side.  I remain on that side for my own personal combat, but I'm saying that I acknowledge that skilled practitioners can potentially utilize certain techniques which involve spins to great effect.  I've seen Artorius throw spinning kicks that I barely had time to dodge, let alone get a strike in.

I'm not saying I'm super fast or anything, I'm just remarking on the time period.  You're talking a fraction of a second for a skilled martial artist to execute a spin attack, while in the meantime (assuming you're looking to take advantage of this opening) the opponent must:

1.  Recognize the opportunity
2.  Make a decision to act
3.  Carry out their action

Once again, I'm just saying that a spinning attack could potentially have its uses.  I don't use it, and typically neither does Artorius, but I'm not gonna completely disregard its validity.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Here is my point... When I started out in martial arts I considered the hook kick to be about the most useless move in martial arts. For me it was a powerless, telegraphed kick that had no place in martial arts. Until my Sensei delivered a precise hook kick to the back of my head, it was then that I realized it was I not the technique that was flawed. Now I love hook kicks and I employ them to great success.

Fast forward a few years to my Marine Corps days, the hammer fist seemed like the dumbest most stupid easy to read technique I had ever seen, but I trained with it and practiced it because they were teaching it. When I went home and sparred with my old sparring partners. The hammer fist was one of my greatest assets because I had learned how to utilize it properly...

Fast forward a few years to my lightsaber sparring days now. I have been very tempted to write reverse grip off as impractical, yet I have a friend who utilizes it with great success. So the more I study martial arts in all aspects the more I learn, there is no such thing as a useless technique... Merely misused or under trained techniques.

So I have learned through the years any time someone is saying "It can't be done." or "It's a useless technique" or "That only works in movies" They are saying it from their own experience and preference. So I will reiterate... Just because you can't do a certain technique; that doesn't mean that technique is useless or impractical.

[raynefall]

Spin is not the best tactical move, as mentioned above you lose sight of your opponent which can be very detrimental.  Yes the power you can build in a spin is great but if it misses then ouchy,  that power will just keep you rotating.  Now if we take this in the context of the light saber, why do we need more power? they can cut through almost anything...don't really see a need for more power. Personally I think the cost to gain ration is to high....I barely see this work in sparring. ( note when it does it is an ahhhhhhhhh ewwwww moment )

[Jammo]

Its 50/50. I've used them enough to know when you can actually pull the trigger on such a thing, and its not often. That being said, its devastating when you catch someone unaware with a properly set up spin move. Its almost dangerous and you need some practice or you'll take someone's head off.

[BenPass]

IMHO spinning is better to be used for balance training. I've pulled it off before and like others say, it can be devastating, but I personally think that its true use should be in training, sparring for show or just showing off. IF you can do it flawlessly then great, but you definitely need a lot of practice before it can be viably used.

As to the comment earlier about spinning takes your eyes off of your opponent, swordplay is truly deadly dance. A good dancer can spin and keep their orientation and focus in check. Again, practice, practice, practice!

Just my two credits

[Luna]

My style is pretty focused on defense, so I don't spin (using an LED saber, a bokken, or my favorite training gladius. I don't have enough experience with a real blade to tell whether or not it would change my style). Spinning can be useful (and fun), I just don't use it. I know some good martial artists who spin and some who don't. I'm pretty apathetic about the whole thing. It can be good, it can be bad. It's a little like using a swing volley in tennis (for a somewhat competent player. For a beginner, it's a bad idea almost no matter what). It works for me when I use it in the correct circumstance, but others don't use it at all. Anyways, enough of my pointless comparisons, I think there are advantages and disadvantages and oh so many different opinions. I'm no martial arts expert, and I will never claim to be one, but I sincerely doubt that there is a right or wrong answer in this case. I welcome any correction if I am in error, however, this is just my opinion and I will not pretend that it is absolute fact.