Sith or Jedi?

[Luna]

I am currently trying to work out exactly which side of The Force I'm on.

I feel a very strong pull towards the Dark side, because they embrace their passion, their feelings, their emotions, and distil them into a razor-sharp intent. Granted, that intent is almost exclusively evil, and I don't particularly hold with destroying planets, enslaving races and things of that type. But there is most certainly power and control in that path.

 HOWEVER, nor am I a poster-boy for the Jedi. I do identify with Qui-gon Jinn in particular, a Noble, brave, peaceful but POWERFUL man who had a calm and commanding bearing about him before he even drew a lightsaber. He was also an excellent duellist and very strong with The Force.

But the Jedi have their flaws; their arrogance, their dogma, they cold, dispassionate and stifling rigidity. To my mind, the Jedi Order was every bit the dictatorship that the Sith rule of two is; and if you need proof, read the "Jedi Path". Case in point; The council can nullify a victory in the trials if they feel The Force is "Inadequately" with a candidate, or they can pass a candidate who has shown little or no aptitude at all; because they feel The Force has a "greater plan". Appeals of any kind are also forbidden!

As I said, I am still waiting to be "turned" one way or the other.

Go with the Fallanassi. We have pie, cake, cookies, and peace.

[RogueLeader]

I am currently trying to work out exactly which side of The Force I'm on.

I feel a very strong pull towards the Dark side, because they embrace their passion, their feelings, their emotions, and distil them into a razor-sharp intent. Granted, that intent is almost exclusively evil, and I don't particularly hold with destroying planets, enslaving races and things of that type. But there is most certainly power and control in that path.

 HOWEVER, nor am I a poster-boy for the Jedi. I do identify with Qui-gon Jinn in particular, a Noble, brave, peaceful but POWERFUL man who had a calm and commanding bearing about him before he even drew a lightsaber. He was also an excellent duellist and very strong with The Force.

But the Jedi have their flaws; their arrogance, their dogma, they cold, dispassionate and stifling rigidity. To my mind, the Jedi Order was every bit the dictatorship that the Sith rule of two is; and if you need proof, read the "Jedi Path". Case in point; The council can nullify a victory in the trials if they feel The Force is "Inadequately" with a candidate, or they can pass a candidate who has shown little or no aptitude at all; because they feel The Force has a "greater plan". Appeals of any kind are also forbidden!

As I said, I am still waiting to be "turned" one way or the other.

Incredibly well said. I would give you a thousand points if I could.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Incredibly well said. I would give you a thousand points if I could.

I am greatly honoured by your praise.

[Tsurabisu]

Hi guys.

Sorry for posting so many topics I guess I am just overwhelmed by this forum and all the nice people in here. 

I was just wondering.... All of you have a preference when it comes to the light or the dark side. So why do you prefer one over the other?

I myself like the dark side due to the following:

Black is my favorite colour(I know - black is not really a colour).
DARTH VADER, need I say more?
The elegance of the sith, they are not like bullies who just want to kick you around, they are pure evil and this is depicted in a very elegant and cold way. They mess with your mind - not because they can, because YOU know they can.
Red lightsabers look really good! 

I would really like to know why you dig one side over the other?
Remember; people are a lot like lightsabers, they can brighten your day - they are colourful - and they are really fun to wield. (Joking). So tacky, but had to do it.

Cheers.

For me, I'm 100% Sith. I'd like to point out that Sith are not inherently evil. The Sith philosophy is to further your own power by any means depending on one's own definition of power whether that's total control over the galaxy, killing the most powerful enemies, etc. Lords Vader and Caedus became Sith to gain more power to protect the ones they loved.  Me, personally, I would crush my enemies and make my family the most powerful around. Behind the scenes, anyways. If I acted out in the open, those accursed Jedi would make an attempt on my life... 

[Master Rel]

For me, I'm 100% Sith. I'd like to point out that Sith are not inherently evil. The Sith philosophy is to further your own power by any means depending on one's own definition of power whether that's total control over the galaxy, killing the most powerful enemies, etc. Lords Vader and Caedus became Sith to gain more power to protect the ones they loved.  Me, personally, I would crush my enemies and make my family the most powerful around. Behind the scenes, anyways. If I acted out in the open, those accursed Jedi would make an attempt on my life...  

(clipped)

Evil is profound immorality. In certain religious contexts evil has been described as a supernatural force. Definitions of evil vary, as does the analysis of its root motives and causes. However elements that are commonly associated with evil involve unbalanced behavior involving expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect.

In cultures with Manichaean and Abrahamic religious influence, evil is usually perceived as the dualistic antagonistic opposite of good, in which good should prevail and evil should be defeated. In cultures with Buddhist spiritual influence, both good and evil are perceived as part of an antagonistic duality that itself must be overcome through achieving Śūnyatā meaning emptiness in the sense of recognition of good and evil being two opposing principles but not a reality, emptying the duality of them, and achieving a oneness.

The philosophical question of whether morality is absolute or relative leads to questions about the nature of evil, with views falling into one of four opposed camps: moral absolutism, amoralism, moral relativism, and moral universalism.

*****

This argument knows no beginning or ending...it is a continuous mobius...a constant cycle.

You, on the other side of the interweb, you will believe, support, and say whatever you want to...I can not convince you other wise.

If you like sith, then great!

If you like Jedi, then great!

But there are a few simple aspects that are set in stone...Uncle Lucas followed a handful of established cultural and historical points of interest.  

The Jedi represent good, justice, and selflessness.

The sith represent evil, corruption, and selfishness.

But the full range of humanity is still possible within these guidelines, hence those that fall from the light into darkness and those who find the path in the darkness walking back into the light.

Are all Jedi the pinnacle of what the Council set as the bar? No  There are those who skirt the guidelines, why...because they are human (or aliens with humanity) and as such have strengths and weaknesses.

To be Jedi is to seek the light, to pursue justice, and to give more than you take.

Are all sith the perfection of what is demanded by their order? No  There are those who skirt the guidelines, why...because they are human (or aliens with humanity) and as such have strengths and weaknesses.

To be sith is to accept corruption in exchange for power, to take all that you can get...ever reaching for more.


But to pick apart any one thought out of a statement always leads to failure, it defeats the flow of the whole.

A will defy what I just said because there was a comment that makes a statement that I feel requires to be addressed...


I'd like to point out that Sith are not inherently evil


I must adamantly disagree.  By the very nature of accepting corruption, for any reason, is to invite evil and in equal measure release humanity in kind.  Thus the very act is evil.

We are talking about philosophy and those types of arguments will continue to wage on forever, because it is in our nature to challenge everything and anything.

Looking at the grand scheme...not picking and choosing high and low points, not hand picking examples to offer as debate fodder...Jedi are good and sith are evil...Jedi are light and sith are dark...ebb and flow...push and pull...etc.

And that is ok.

It does not make a real person evil for liking the sith.

It is fantasy and for fun.

But I must stand up and offer counterpoint...not to start a fight but rather to make sure that those who are on the fence are not taken in without hearing both sides with the same degree of enthusiasm.

A vacuum sucks.

Water is wet.

And sith are most assuredly inherently evil.

 

[Tsurabisu]

(clipped)

Evil is profound immorality. In certain religious contexts evil has been described as a supernatural force. Definitions of evil vary, as does the analysis of its root motives and causes. However elements that are commonly associated with evil involve unbalanced behavior involving expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect.

In cultures with Manichaean and Abrahamic religious influence, evil is usually perceived as the dualistic antagonistic opposite of good, in which good should prevail and evil should be defeated. In cultures with Buddhist spiritual influence, both good and evil are perceived as part of an antagonistic duality that itself must be overcome through achieving Śūnyatā meaning emptiness in the sense of recognition of good and evil being two opposing principles but not a reality, emptying the duality of them, and achieving a oneness.

The philosophical question of whether morality is absolute or relative leads to questions about the nature of evil, with views falling into one of four opposed camps: moral absolutism, amoralism, moral relativism, and moral universalism.

*****

This argument knows no beginning or ending...it is a continuous mobius...a constant cycle.

You, on the other side of the interweb, you will believe, support, and say whatever you want to...I can not convince you other wise.

If you like sith, then great!

If you like Jedi, then great!

But there are a few simple aspects that are set in stone...Uncle Lucas followed a handful of established cultural and historical points of interest.  

The Jedi represent good, justice, and selflessness.

The sith represent evil, corruption, and selfishness.

But the full range of humanity is still possible within these guidelines, hence those that fall from the light into darkness and those who find the path in the darkness walking back into the light.

Are all Jedi the pinnacle of what the Council set as the bar? No  There are those who skirt the guidelines, why...because they are human (or aliens with humanity) and as such have strengths and weaknesses.

To be Jedi is to seek the light, to pursue justice, and to give more than you take.

Are all sith the perfection of what is demanded by their order? No  There are those who skirt the guidelines, why...because they are human (or aliens with humanity) and as such have strengths and weaknesses.

To be sith is to accept corruption in exchange for power, to take all that you can get...ever reaching for more.


But to pick apart any one thought out of a statement always leads to failure, it defeats the flow of the whole.

A will defy what I just said because there was a comment that makes a statement that I feel requires to be addressed...


I'd like to point out that Sith are not inherently evil


I must adamantly disagree.  By the very nature of accepting corruption, for any reason, is to invite evil and in equal measure release humanity in kind.  Thus the very act is evil.

We are talking about philosophy and those types of arguments will continue to wage on forever, because it is in our nature to challenge everything and anything.

Looking at the grand scheme...not picking and choosing high and low points, not hand picking examples to offer as debate fodder...Jedi are good and sith are evil...Jedi are light and sith are dark...ebb and flow...push and pull...etc.

And that is ok.

It does not make a real person evil for liking the sith.

It is fantasy and for fun.

But I must stand up and offer counterpoint...not to start a fight but rather to make sure that those who are on the fence are not taken in without hearing both sides with the same degree of enthusiasm.

A vacuum sucks.

Water is wet.

And sith are most assuredly inherently evil.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on the grounds of what makes a Sith a Sith. The difference between the Jedi, a Dark Jedi, and a Sith is philosophy and the choice to follow that philosophy. Jedi are a group of Force users who follow the Jedi code, refusing to use the Dark side, believing it to be unnatural.
Dark Jedi are a group of Force users who have turned away from the Jedi code. They may use both sides of the Force, but have a reputation of being a tad mentally unstable.
Sith are a group of Force users who follow the Sith Code and use the Dark side.
Let's look at the difference between the Jedi and Sith codes.

There is no emotion, there is peace. Vs Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

The Jedi believe its best to avoid any conflict if possible and if conflict is unavoidable, to keep emotion out of it, white Sith believe that conflict helps further them personally and as a culture, weeding out the weak. Survival of the fittest and all that. Also, as we know, a Sith uses their emotions to fuel their power.

The Jedi code reiterates the importance of enlightening ones self and to avoid conflict.

The Sith code says that the stronger you are, the better you are, the further you will go in life.


Also, one thing I would like to make clear. True Sith do not believe in winning at any cost. In fact, cheating is strongly discouraged because it doesn't prove that you're better than your opponent. It makes the win hollow. Not a true victory.

The Jedi live a very strict lifestyle, living by many rules and regulations, making sure everything was nice and ordered. To quote Darth Bane, "The Jedi shackle themselves in chains of obedience: obedience to the Jedi Council; obedience to their Masters; obedience to the Republic. Those who follow the light side even believe they must submit themselves to the Force. They are merely instruments of its will, slaves to a greater good."

Sith on the other hand, believed that to reach their full potential, they needed to make it so they had nothing to hold them back. Very few Sith ever made it to that stage, but it was something to strive for.

Yeah, I know I went on a little rant here, but I guess my main point is that what it all comes down to is choice and what you believe in. Jedi and Sith are both religions with different points of view about what to do with their strength.  The teaching of the Sith (Or Jedi) are not evil. But that does not mean an evil individual can't use them.

[Kitra]

One doesnt work without the other. They balance each other out on a large scale through time like a heartbeat sensor in the hospital. This "pulse" is the natural order and with that no one is really right both are as they are to become whole through each other, to give each other meaning.

I am a big fan of the egyptian principle of Maat i prefer the balance of anything with that i am very observing and calculate as well as feel emotionally so that i might get the most out of my perceptions.

With that i would consider myself grey as well even when all my actions are fuelled with compassion it comes with a fiting angle to the situation present.

[Darth_Arkanus]

This is fascinating, and is helping me in my quest no end!

I don't see the Sith as inherently "evil" either. To say that makes them a one-dimensional, card-board cut-out villains. They are far, far more complex than that.

The Jedi classify the Sith as "evil" because of their search for greater personal power and self-improvement. It is, to my mind, a failing of the Jedi that they focus so much on others that they actually neglect themselves. Take the saber duels (this list is ONLY from the films, not the extended universe);

Qui-gon Jinn vs Darth Maul
Qui-gon Jinn & Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul
Obi-wan Kenobi & Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Tyranus
Yoda vs Darth Tyranus
Mace Windu & the Council members vs Darth Sidious
Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious
Yoda vs Darth Sidious
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (as Anakin)
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (proper)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (bespin)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Death Star II)

In most of these battles the Jedi "win" in one of two ways, greater numbers, or skirting very, very close to the darkside. (in particular Masters Skywalker and Windu)

What you have to as is why the Sith are so easily able to outmatch the Jedi, & the answer is their focus on themselves. The are important, they MATTER, so the train to be the best that possibly can be; but this is an attitude denied the Jedi. At least, that's how it appears from where I'm sitting.

[Tsurabisu]

This is fascinating, and is helping me in my quest no end!

I don't see the Sith as inherently "evil" either. To say that makes them a one-dimensional, card-board cut-out villains. They are far, far more complex than that.

The Jedi classify the Sith as "evil" because of their search for greater personal power and self-improvement. It is, to my mind, a failing of the Jedi that they focus so much on others that they actually neglect themselves. Take the saber duels (this list is ONLY from the films, not the extended universe);

Qui-gon Jinn vs Darth Maul
Qui-gon Jinn & Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul
Obi-wan Kenobi & Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Tyranus
Yoda vs Darth Tyranus
Mace Windu & the Council members vs Darth Sidious
Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious
Yoda vs Darth Sidious
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (as Anakin)
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (proper)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (bespin)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Death Star II)

In most of these battles the Jedi "win" in one of two ways, greater numbers, or skirting very, very close to the darkside. (in particular Masters Skywalker and Windu)

What you have to as is why the Sith are so easily able to outmatch the Jedi, & the answer is their focus on themselves. The are important, they MATTER, so the train to be the best that possibly can be; but this is an attitude denied the Jedi. At least, that's how it appears from where I'm sitting.

Also, something that's kinda funny to point out. In the 11 duels that you mentioned, the Jedi activated their sabers first in all but 3 (Darth Maul in both of his and Vader against Obi-wan in Ep 4.) So much for them wanting to take the peaceful route, eh?

[Darth_Arkanus]

Also, something that's kinda funny to point out. In the 11 duels that you mentioned, the Jedi activated their sabers first in all but 3 (Darth Maul in both of his and Vader against Obi-wan in Ep 4.) So much for them wanting to take the peaceful route, eh?

Yes indeed, but is that more because the Jedi fear the Sith?

[Darth_Arkanus]

Go with the Fallanassi. We have pie, cake, cookies, and peace.

I never did ask, WHO or WHAT are the Fallanassi? lol

[Tsurabisu]

I never did ask, WHO or WHAT are the Fallanassi? lol

A group of female Force users. Jacen learned from them on his trip around the galaxy to understand the Force.

[Kitra]

This is fascinating, and is helping me in my quest no end!

I don't see the Sith as inherently "evil" either. To say that makes them a one-dimensional, card-board cut-out villains. They are far, far more complex than that.

The Jedi classify the Sith as "evil" because of their search for greater personal power and self-improvement. It is, to my mind, a failing of the Jedi that they focus so much on others that they actually neglect themselves. Take the saber duels (this list is ONLY from the films, not the extended universe);

Qui-gon Jinn vs Darth Maul
Qui-gon Jinn & Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul
Obi-wan Kenobi & Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Tyranus
Yoda vs Darth Tyranus
Mace Windu & the Council members vs Darth Sidious
Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious
Yoda vs Darth Sidious
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (as Anakin)
Obi-wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (proper)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (bespin)
Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Death Star II)

In most of these battles the Jedi "win" in one of two ways, greater numbers, or skirting very, very close to the darkside. (in particular Masters Skywalker and Windu)

What you have to as is why the Sith are so easily able to outmatch the Jedi, & the answer is their focus on themselves. The are important, they MATTER, so the train to be the best that possibly can be; but this is an attitude denied the Jedi. At least, that's how it appears from where I'm sitting.

I beg the differ...
Theyr quest for the perfection of themselves are equal since there are champions on both sides. But the morale compass that the Jedi use to GET there is one that seems to take a bit longer but will not consume theyr body and soull in the process.
The dark side is a quick and easy way to power but most dark side users are stuck on that first huge bump through theyr emotions relabeled in forcepower while the jedi dribble step by step on the way growing healthily to the level that the Sith reached before.
When you really only look for power levels of the charackters than it will result after some time of reading/studying in a tie of both.

[Darth_Arkanus]

I beg the differ...
Theyr quest for the perfection of themselves are equal since there are champions on both sides. But the morale compass that the Jedi use to GET there is one that seems to take a bit longer but will not consume theyr body and soull in the process.
The dark side is a quick and easy way to power but most dark side users are stuck on that first huge bump through theyr emotions relabeled in forcepower while the jedi dribble step by step on the way growing healthily to the level that the Sith reached before.
When you really only look for power levels of the charackters than it will result after some time of reading/studying in a tie of both.

Yes, it would seem that the Jedi path is considerably slower. Whether it is a more "natural" approach, I haven't made my own mind up on yet. Anakin was a prodigy, a natural, and the Jedi didn't trust him. Darth Maul was also a prodigy, being that he was able to match TWO Jedi; one of whom was a recognised Master. Anakin at that age could not stand up to ONE Sith Lord, let alone two.

Prodigy-ism is an issue for Jedi, because they have a natural mistrust of abilities that are that innate in a student; precisely because they expect it to be a slow journey. Take the story of Mace Windu's lightsaber. It was the product of months of having the same visions, and the Jedi Masters were concerned. They didn't know how to handle that; but his mission to Hurrikane saw a satisfactory conclusion at least.

As for ultimate power levels, I agree, The Dark Side is not stronger, nor is the Light. Yoda could not beat Sidious, but nor could Sidious defeat Yoda. Sure, Sidious' force lightning was strong, but so was Yoda's Tutaminis skill. As duellists they were well matched too, so neither really had an edge. In fact, were the fight conducted on level ground, it could have gone on indefinitely.

[Luna]

I never did ask, WHO or WHAT are the Fallanassi? lol

A mostly female group of followers of the White Current, specializing in illusions.

Here's the thing about Sith - nothing is wrong with power and self-improvement. Murdering and torturing innocent people is wrong. Using the Dark Side is essentially selling your soul for power. Their lives are miserable and painful because they're never satisfied and using the Dark Side corrupts their bodies. They think only of themselves and care nothing for others.

I have no sympathy for sadistic, narcissistic, psychopathic mass-murderers.

If you're just going by ideals... remember, the ideals are what lead them to slaughter everybody in their paths. The ideals themselves sound cool and a edgy, but they're pretty deplorable too.

Oh, and there's the fact that they're obviously meant to be viewed as the bad guys.