Sith or Jedi?

[Master Bluespike74]

You could learn from the Aing Tii monks.  They will teach everything employed by both the light and dark sides of the Force.  They are beings that seek knowledge for knowledge sake and believe that it is the user of that knowledge that determines whether it will be used for good or evil. 

Their only hatred is toward those that practice slavery.  If you are a slaver (especially of children) the Aing Tii show no mercy.

[Kitra]

From the Canon: Only a sith thinks in absolutes...


Try to avoid extremes and look out for whatever appeals to you.
No one here should be able to help you to a great extend since the once that made up theyr believes have a long way behind them to perceive this believes as his.

When you are still on your search and torn between two dogmas then try to experience them by dwelling in them.
Find your path by knowing thyself and be dilligent to perceive this little nuances that try to pull you to your path which you still shall learn on your little time here in this jorney.

There is no better path but only your path.
You must find it yourself since no one can point exactly in that direction through the medium of a forum.
Experience and learn.

[Tsurabisu]

A mostly female group of followers of the White Current, specializing in illusions.

Here's the thing about Sith - nothing is wrong with power and self-improvement. Murdering and torturing innocent people is wrong. Using the Dark Side is essentially selling your soul for power. Their lives are miserable and painful because they're never satisfied and using the Dark Side corrupts their bodies. They think only of themselves and care nothing for others.

I have no sympathy for sadistic, narcissistic, psychopathic mass-murderers.

If you're just going by ideals... remember, the ideals are what lead them to slaughter everybody in their paths. The ideals themselves sound cool and a edgy, but they're pretty deplorable too.

Oh, and there's the fact that they're obviously meant to be viewed as the bad guys.

Question... Where does it say anywhere that using the Dark side is like selling your soul for power? There are lots of other groups who use the Dark side, besides the Sith, and they don't have the same philosophies as the Sith. From everything we've seen, the Force is supposed to be ballanced, one side not stronger than the other. Yes, using the Dark side can damage a body physically, but so can using the Light side. For example, I give Dorsk 81. He drew too much on the Force and was incinerated from the inside out.  

As for their lives being "miserable and painful"... I can't really agree with this choice of words. I'd say that early on, they have a hard life as they go through the academy. With Jedi, the students start off pretty lax when it comes to rules and restrictions and gain more restrictions as their training progresses. Sith are the opposite. They start off extremely strict in order to weed out the weak students, leaving only the stronger, more promising students to move up the ranks. The farther they get with their training, the more freedoms they have.

As for caring nothing for others, this is not true, either. Love is a very powerful emotion, and Sith do use it. They love their partner fiercely and would do anything to protect them (Not being able to protect them would prove their weakness. That's not an option for them.)

I beg the differ...
Theyr quest for the perfection of themselves are equal since there are champions on both sides. But the morale compass that the Jedi use to GET there is one that seems to take a bit longer but will not consume theyr body and soull in the process.
The dark side is a quick and easy way to power but most dark side users are stuck on that first huge bump through theyr emotions relabeled in forcepower while the jedi dribble step by step on the way growing healthily to the level that the Sith reached before.
When you really only look for power levels of the charackters than it will result after some time of reading/studying in a tie of both.

As for the Dark side being a quick and easy way to power, this couldn't be farther from the truth. The Sith academy was a very harsh place and it demanded a lot from students. It's in no way easy or quick to learn the ways of the Sith.  

From the Canon: Only a sith thinks in absolutes...

Spoken by a Jedi, but the statement itself is an absolute, and since it's being said by a Jedi, it makes the statement false

[Oramac]

I am currently trying to work out exactly which side of The Force I'm on.

I feel a very strong pull towards the Dark side, because they embrace their passion, their feelings, their emotions, and distil them into a razor-sharp intent. Granted, that intent is almost exclusively evil, and I don't particularly hold with destroying planets, enslaving races and things of that type. But there is most certainly power and control in that path.

You sounds quite a bit like me in this regard.  I disagree with a lot of what the Jedi teach, but that's not to say I agree with the Sith on everything either.

I view myself (and by extension the character I've created) as a sort of Sith Admiral Thrawn.  He believes fully in his cause, but he's not going to slaughter billions or destroy planets to get what he wants.  He even specifically states that wasting troops in futile battle is unwise.  He's not so arrogant that he can't admit defeat, but he's cunning enough that he doesn't often have to.    

From the Canon: Only a sith thinks in absolutes...

Which is, in itself, and absolute.  And said by multiple Jedi.  So by that definition, most Jedi are also Sith.  Not a terribly good argument, unfortunately.

[Luna]

Question... Where does it say anywhere that using the Dark side is like selling your soul for power?

It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon.

There are lots of other groups who use the Dark side, besides the Sith, and they don't have the same philosophies as the Sith. From everything we've seen, the Force is supposed to be ballanced, one side not stronger than the other. Yes, using the Dark side can damage a body physically, but so can using the Light side. For example, I give Dorsk 81. He drew too much on the Force and was incinerated from the inside out.

The Light Side doesn't generally harm your body. Extreme circumstances like the one you listed are... well, extreme. They're certainly not the norm, whereas the Dark Side harming the body is an almost universal rule.

As for their lives being "miserable and painful"... I can't really agree with this choice of words. I'd say that early on, they have a hard life as they go through the academy. With Jedi, the students start off pretty lax when it comes to rules and restrictions and gain more restrictions as their training progresses. Sith are the opposite. They start off extremely strict in order to weed out the weak students, leaving only the stronger, more promising students to move up the ranks. The farther they get with their training, the more freedoms they have.

I wasn't referring to their training. I was referring to their lives in general and the bodily decay caused by use of the Dark Side. The abusive training is pretty miserable too, but I'm talking about all Sith, not just the ones who went through the same training.

As for caring nothing for others, this is not true, either. Love is a very powerful emotion, and Sith do use it. They love their partner fiercely and would do anything to protect them (Not being able to protect them would prove their weakness. That's not an option for them.)

Again, you're referring to a very small time period or group. I'm speaking of Sith universally. Yes, they do love their partner (if they have one, which is unlikely). Yes, they would do anything to prevent the death of their partner. The needs of the few, however, should not outweigh the needs of the many. They would kill thousands to save a single life (Vader, anyone?).

As for the Dark side being a quick and easy way to power, this couldn't be farther from the truth. The Sith academy was a very harsh place and it demanded a lot from students. It's in no way easy or quick to learn the ways of the Sith.

Again. I don't think anyone but you is talking about one period or group.

Spoken by a Jedi, but the statement itself is an absolute, and since it's being said by a Jedi, it makes the statement false

That always bugged me I suppose it's just bad writing.

This is becoming a very entertaining discussion

[Darth_Arkanus]

A mostly female group of followers of the White Current, specializing in illusions.

Here's the thing about Sith - nothing is wrong with power and self-improvement. Murdering and torturing innocent people is wrong. Using the Dark Side is essentially selling your soul for power. Their lives are miserable and painful because they're never satisfied and using the Dark Side corrupts their bodies. They think only of themselves and care nothing for others.

I have no sympathy for sadistic, narcissistic, psychopathic mass-murderers.

If you're just going by ideals... remember, the ideals are what lead them to slaughter everybody in their paths. The ideals themselves sound cool and a edgy, but they're pretty deplorable too.

Oh, and there's the fact that they're obviously meant to be viewed as the bad guys.

I can't really argue with that; so I'll just hack you to pieces! hehe

Seriously though, you make a good point.

[Darth_Arkanus]

You could learn from the Aing Tii monks.  They will teach everything employed by both the light and dark sides of the Force.  They are beings that seek knowledge for knowledge sake and believe that it is the user of that knowledge that determines whether it will be used for good or evil. 

Their only hatred is toward those that practice slavery.  If you are a slaver (especially of children) the Aing Tii show no mercy.

Well they sound like a good possibility then, character-wise.

No, slavery (of any kind) is not something I see my character engaging in.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Question... Where does it say anywhere that using the Dark side is like selling your soul for power? There are lots of other groups who use the Dark side, besides the Sith, and they don't have the same philosophies as the Sith. From everything we've seen, the Force is supposed to be ballanced, one side not stronger than the other. Yes, using the Dark side can damage a body physically, but so can using the Light side. For example, I give Dorsk 81. He drew too much on the Force and was incinerated from the inside out.

It's a Jedi "take" on the purpose of the Sith; as such it is bias.  

As for their lives being "miserable and painful"... I can't really agree with this choice of words. I'd say that early on, they have a hard life as they go through the academy. With Jedi, the students start off pretty lax when it comes to rules and restrictions and gain more restrictions as their training progresses. Sith are the opposite. They start off extremely strict in order to weed out the weak students, leaving only the stronger, more promising students to move up the ranks. The farther they get with their training, the more freedoms they have.

At the risk of sounding like Anakin Skywalker, more lies of the Jedi. Telling younglings that the Dark side makes life "miserable and painful" is a great deterrent; or is thought to be. Darth Sidious was neither in pain, nor miserable prior to his fight with Mace Windu. In fact, his disfigurement was the result of coming into contact with both force lightning and the Hurrikane energies of Mace's lightsaber.

As for caring nothing for others, this is not true, either. Love is a very powerful emotion, and Sith do use it. They love their partner fiercely and would do anything to protect them (Not being able to protect them would prove their weakness. That's not an option for them.)

Indeed, and this care extends beyond romantic relationships too. Darth Sidious sense that his apprentice was in danger, and all he could think of was to go to him and help. He had no need to; he had already won!

Spoken by a Jedi, but the statement itself is an absolute, and since it's being said by a Jedi, it makes the statement false

The Jedi seem very good at stating "fact", yet accusing others of dealing in absolutes. Also, isn't the Jedi code FULL of absolutes?

"There is no emotion, there is Peace" etc. Every tenet of the code is an absolute, from a Jedi perspective.

[Darth_Arkanus]

You sounds quite a bit like me in this regard.  I disagree with a lot of what the Jedi teach, but that's not to say I agree with the Sith on everything either.

I view myself (and by extension the character I've created) as a sort of Sith Admiral Thrawn.  He believes fully in his cause, but he's not going to slaughter billions or destroy planets to get what he wants.  He even specifically states that wasting troops in futile battle is unwise.  He's not so arrogant that he can't admit defeat, but he's cunning enough that he doesn't often have to.

Agreed. I feel very much that way too; conflicted, searching, finding some truths on both sides, if I'm totally honest. I still feel a strong pull towards ensuring my own safety first though, and I do agree with one sentiment from (of all places) a Bruce Lee film; "Strength makes all other values possible! How many exquisite wonders have left the world for lack of the strength to survive?"

[BenPass]

I think a lesson in absolutes versus exclusives is needed...

[Darth_Arkanus]

I think a lesson in absolutes versus exclusives is needed...

It should make for interesting and edifying reading, if nothing else.

[Oramac]

I think a lesson in absolutes versus exclusives is needed...

Possibly, but the phrase "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is absolutely an absolute.  (yes I phrased it that way on purpose  )

[Tsurabisu]

It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon.

The Light Side doesn't generally harm your body. Extreme circumstances like the one you listed are... well, extreme. They're certainly not the norm, whereas the Dark Side harming the body is an almost universal rule.

I wasn't referring to their training. I was referring to their lives in general and the bodily decay caused by use of the Dark Side. The abusive training is pretty miserable too, but I'm talking about all Sith, not just the ones who went through the same training.

Again, you're referring to a very small time period or group. I'm speaking of Sith universally. Yes, they do love their partner (if they have one, which is unlikely). Yes, they would do anything to prevent the death of their partner. The needs of the few, however, should not outweigh the needs of the many. They would kill thousands to save a single life (Vader, anyone?).

Again. I don't think anyone but you is talking about one period or group.

That always bugged me I suppose it's just bad writing.

This is becoming a very entertaining discussion

First, it looks like you have a very narrow point of view on the Sith. You say you're talking about "All" Sith. Again. that's generalizing. That would be like saying all Christians are evil or all Pagans are evil. It just doesn't work. I'm not talking about just one time period. I'm talking about pretty much everything before and after the Rule of 2.  As for the Dark side causing people to decay, again, this has no proof. Vergere theorized that the Force was a sentient entity and the damage to the body was caused by negative intent.
Also, Count Dooku used the Dark side for a decade, showing no damage to his body. The Emperor showed no damage to his body until his battle with Windu, and that damage was NOT caused by the Emperor using the Force, but by the attack being reflected back at him. Darth Plagueis plat out says he has no idea if the Dark side power affects people the same way.
I don't understand the first comment you made though. You say that it would be ridiculous to have them flat out say that the Sith are evil because it would be to obvious. That kind of seems backward to me. During all 6 movies, we see the work of 1 main Sith and his apprentice who follows his orders. The Emperor was an evil man., but that doesn't mean his apprentices were evil. Dooku wanted to help oppressed systems that he felt the Jedi had turned their back on. Vader, to save his wife and child. Same with Jacen (Not in the movies, but a Sith Lord). So out of the 5 Sith we see here, 3 of them are not evil. They have good intentions and an evil master. Anakin had my favorite quote regarding this entire discussion. "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"

 The Rule of 2 made it so most the Sith were dead, in hiding, or isolated from the rest of the galaxy. That is why I don't like to include the Rule of 2 era in this. We only get a very narrow view of the Sith during the Rule of 2.
(Yes, this is a very entertaining discussion. Lol)

[Luna]

First, it looks like you have a very narrow point of view on the Sith. You say you're talking about "All" Sith. Again. that's generalizing. That would be like saying all Christians are evil or all Pagans are evil. It just doesn't work. I'm not talking about just one time period. I'm talking about pretty much everything before and after the Rule of 2.

You were only using about Sith Academy students to counter my argument. That certainly isn't everything.

As for the Dark side causing people to decay, again, this has no proof. Vergere theorized that the Force was a sentient entity and the damage to the body was caused by negative intent.
Also, Count Dooku used the Dark side for a decade, showing no damage to his body. The Emperor showed no damage to his body until his battle with Windu, and that damage was NOT caused by the Emperor using the Force, but by the attack being reflected back at him. Darth Plagueis plat out says he has no idea if the Dark side power affects people the same way.

Dark side users became more powerful as their physical bodies slowly decayed. (Taken from Wookieepedia)

Also, Vergere only suggested that because she was saying there aren't actually different sides of the Force, so it isn't applicable in this discussion.

I don't understand the first comment you made though. You say that it would be ridiculous to have them flat out say that the Sith are evil because it would be to obvious.

Please read it again. That's not what I said. Not even close. I said it would be ridiculous for them to compare using the Dark Side to selling your soul in canon, since that would be comparing a canon decision to an out-of-universe concept.

It had nothing to do with the Sith being called evil. I'm honestly not sure where you got that.

That kind of seems backward to me. During all 6 movies, we see the work of 1 main Sith and his apprentice who follows his orders. The Emperor was an evil man., but that doesn't mean his apprentices were evil. Dooku wanted to help oppressed systems that he felt the Jedi had turned their back on. Vader, to save his wife and child. Same with Jacen (Not in the movies, but a Sith Lord). So out of the 5 Sith we see here, 3 of them are not evil. They have good intentions and an evil master. Anakin had my favorite quote regarding this entire discussion. "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant, but it's still pretty wrong. First off, that's only four Sith, not five, but that isn't important.

Dooku wasn't that evil, I'll give you that.

Vader killed thousands to save one (who died anyway).

That's evil.

Caedus did the same.

The Rule of 2 made it so most the Sith were dead, in hiding, or isolated from the rest of the galaxy. That is why I don't like to include the Rule of 2 era in this. We only get a very narrow view of the Sith during the Rule of 2.
(Yes, this is a very entertaining discussion. Lol)

The Rule of Two cannot be ignored. You're also ignoring the Rule of One and probably the Lost Tribe.

[RogueLeader]

I think a lesson in absolutes versus exclusives is needed...

Yes, I would very much enjoy a clarification on this point.

First, it looks like you have a very narrow point of view on the Sith. You say you're talking about "All" Sith. Again. that's generalizing.

The Lost Tribe didn't go around constantly committing genocide.

That would be like saying all Christians are evil or all Pagans are evil.

"All Sith are evil."

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Therefore only evil people deal in absolutes.

Jedi deal in absolutes.

Therefore, Jedi are Sith and all Jedi are evil.

During all 6 movies, we see the work of 1 main Sith and his apprentice who follows his orders. The Emperor was an evil man., but that doesn't mean his apprentices were evil. Dooku wanted to help oppressed systems that he felt the Jedi had turned their back on. Vader, to save his wife and child. Same with Jacen (Not in the movies, but a Sith Lord). So out of the 5 Sith we see here, 3 of them are not evil. They have good intentions and an evil master. Anakin had my favorite quote regarding this entire discussion. "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"

So from your point of view, murdering children is not evil, as long as you do it out of love? That's a really worrisome line of thought.