Sith or Jedi?

[Tsurabisu]

You were only using about Sith Academy students to counter my argument. That certainly isn't everything.

Dark side users became more powerful as their physical bodies slowly decayed. (Taken from Wookieepedia)

Please read it again. That's not what I said. Not even close. I said it would be ridiculous for them to compare using the Dark Side to selling your soul in canon, since that would be comparing a canon decision to an out-of-universe concept.

It had nothing to do with the Sith being called evil. I'm honestly not sure where you got that.

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant, but it's still pretty wrong. First off, that's only four Sith, not five, but that isn't important.

Dooku wasn't that evil, I'll give you that.

Vader killed thousands to save one (who died anyway).

That's evil.

Caedus did the same.

The Rule of Two cannot be ignored. You're also ignoring the Rule of One and probably the Lost Tribe.

First, I re-read "It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon." and I admit I read it wrong the first time.
Second, "Only those that devoted almost all of their being to the dark side, such as Darth Sidious, would have their appearance radically altered.[9] It should be noted that Sidious's most drastic physical alterations occurred during the lightsaber duel with Jedi Master Mace Windu; Windu having used his own lightsaber to deflect Sidious's Force lightning causing the uncontrolled energy to radically alter Sidious's physical features" (Like yours, also taken from Wookieepedia)
Third, you say Vader was evil because he killed thousands out of love. Kyp Durron killed BILLIONS out of revenge and he is a Jedi Master, and not considered evil.
Fourth, Talking about the Sith academy is not really limiting the amount of Sith I'm talking about. The Sith Academy was running more than 6,000 years before the Rule of 2. (That's a lot of Sith)
Fifth, 5 Sith. The Emperor, Maul, Dooku, Anakin, and Jacen. The last 3 I can't call evil. They may have done some bad things, but they are not evil.

[Luna]

First, I re-read "It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon." and I admit I read it wrong the first time.
Second, "Only those that devoted almost all of their being to the dark side, such as Darth Sidious, would have their appearance radically altered.[9] It should be noted that Sidious's most drastic physical alterations occurred during the lightsaber duel with Jedi Master Mace Windu; Windu having used his own lightsaber to deflect Sidious's Force lightning causing the uncontrolled energy to radically alter Sidious's physical features" (Like yours, also taken from Wookieepedia)

Fair enough, although it still says that their appearances would be radically altered.

Third, you say Vader was evil because he killed thousands out of love. Kyp Durron killed BILLIONS out of revenge and he is a Jedi Master, and not considered evil.

He was evil at the time, and people (in-universe) still hate him for it. He will never redeem himself.

Vader's actions and commands led to deaths of billions as well, if not trillions. I was only referring to his actions in ROTS.

Also, I never implied that the Jedi aren't evil. I hate them too.

Fourth, Talking about the Sith academy is not really limiting the amount of Sith I'm talking about. The Sith Academy was running more than 6,000 years before the Rule of 2. (That's a lot of Sith)

Talking about one group/time instead of all groups/times is limiting. There is absolutely no way that it isn't limiting.

Fifth, 5 Sith. The Emperor, Maul, Dooku, Anakin, and Jacen. The last 3 I can't call evil. They may have done some bad things, but they are not evil.

I see now. When you said "out of the 5 Sith we see here", it made me think that "here" was your post, which only mentioned four Sith.

During all 6 movies, we see the work of 1 main Sith and his apprentice who follows his orders. The Emperor was an evil man., but that doesn't mean his apprentices were evil. Dooku wanted to help oppressed systems that he felt the Jedi had turned their back on. Vader, to save his wife and child. Same with Jacen (Not in the movies, but a Sith Lord). So out of the 5 Sith we see here, 3 of them are not evil. They have good intentions and an evil master. Anakin had my favorite quote regarding this entire discussion. "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"

Let's see.

Dooku was pretty cool, for a Sith.

Vader killed billions of people, some to try to save one person and the rest because she died.

Caedus did almost the same to ensure that his daughter wouldn't become a Sith.

I can't see how you don't view that as evil. If that's truly your moral standpoint then this discussion is pointless because you won't view anyone as evil.

On that note, I think we're just going in circles (or triangles? Whichever you prefer) so it's becoming pointless.

Have a nice day.

[Tsurabisu]

Fair enough, although it still says that their appearances would be radically altered.

He was evil at the time, and people (in-universe) still hate him for it. He will never redeem himself.

Vader's actions and commands led to deaths of billions as well, if not trillions. I was only referring to his actions in ROTS.

Also, I never implied that the Jedi aren't evil. I hate them too.

Talking about one group/time instead of all groups/times is limiting. There is absolutely no way that it isn't limiting.

I see now. When you said "out of the 5 Sith we see here", it made me think that "here" was your post, which only mentioned four Sith.

Let's see.

Dooku was pretty cool, for a Sith.

Vader killed billions of people, some to try to save one person and the rest because she died.

Caedus did almost the same to ensure that his daughter wouldn't become a Sith.

I can't see how you don't view that as evil. If that's truly your moral standpoint then this discussion is pointless because you won't view anyone as evil.

On that note, I think we're just going in circles (or triangles? Whichever you prefer) so it's becoming pointless.

Have a nice day.

Evil at the time?  Honestly, that sound like a cop out to me. You are saying Vader was evil, yet he had a change of heart before he died, but you're not making the same argument for him. As I've said. I believe the Emperor was an evil person. Vader, Dooku, and Jacen are not evil, but they did evil things with good intentions. (Maul had a hatred of Jedi and was following orders. I'd say he'd be more chaotic neutral than anything) As you can see, there are individual "People" I think are evil. But to say the entire group of people are evil is just wrong (And dealing in absolutes, something that we've already talked about. Heh.)

[TheHobbitofDune]

Evil at the time?  Honestly, that sound like a cop out to me. You are saying Vader was evil, yet he had a change of heart before he died

How is that a cop out? Also, having a change of heart doesn't magically erase all of your past sins. He couldn't redeem himself because scars run deep, and people aren't likely to forget about his path of destruction. He will always be evil in the eyes of most people, even if he wasn't technically evil in his final moments.

[James Casey]

The whole 'Only a Sith...' thing can just be recognition that, well, only Sith deal in absolutes. Consider that Obi-Wan was "The Negotiator", while Anakin killed dozens of Jedi and younglings to save one woman, and then when that didn't work out...

Sith are not known for compromises. Everything they do, they seek to turn to their advantage in some way. Everything is used to serve their ultimate goal. Are all Sith genocidal maniacs? No. Are all Sith ruthless and willing to sacrifice anything to further their goals? The evidence certainly points towards yes.

[Aurentis]

Your argument that Vader isn't/wasn't evil would be solid if it weren't for the fact that after his love, the person he was trying to save, had died, he continued to do awful things and make people suffer.  It took watching his son give in to the Dark Side during their final duel for him to realize just what his original rationalization had turned him into.  Justifying it by saying "I'm only using the Dark Side to protect someone" doesn't make it intrinsically better, nor does it make him "not evil."  The mere notion of murdering children for any reason is universally considered evil, and the fact that he did so without hesitation is a valid moral reason to condemn him.

I can agree that Dooku wasn't necessarily evil, but I would call him somewhat misguided, personally.
I have to disagree with people calling the Jedi evil.  Then again, I don't see the Jedi the way a lot of people on the internet do -- my interpretation is more of a parellel to Zen ideals, as opposed to the wildly-differing presentations throughout the various Star Wars media.

Also, points to both James and THoD.  Both good posts.

P.S. I'm just going to keep calling you Thod. 

[TheHobbitofDune]

Your argument that Vader isn't/wasn't evil would be solid if it weren't for the fact that after his love, the person he was trying to save, had died, he continued to do awful things and make people suffer. 

That is a really good point. Point!

Also, points to both James and THoD.  Both good posts.

P.S. I'm just going to keep calling you Thod. 

Thank you

Haha, sounds good to me. I've been given a ton of nicknames here.

[Luna]

Evil at the time?  Honestly, that sound like a cop out to me. You are saying Vader was evil, yet he had a change of heart before he died, but you're not making the same argument for him.

How the hell is that a cop out?

Forgive the outburst, but that's ridiculous.

Both he and Vader were evil while they were doing evil things, but later turned back to the Light. That doesn't erase anything and I never said it did.

As I've said. I believe the Emperor was an evil person. Vader, Dooku, and Jacen are not evil, but they did evil things with good intentions. (Maul had a hatred of Jedi and was following orders. I'd say he'd be more chaotic neutral than anything) As you can see, there are individual "People" I think are evil. But to say the entire group of people are evil is just wrong (And dealing in absolutes, something that we've already talked about. Heh.)

Doing evil things makes one evil.

Simple as that.

Vader wanted to save his wife. Cool.

He killed thousands and later killed billions. Evil.

Caedus wanted to prevent a dark vision from coming true. Cool.

Caedus killed millions. Evil.

Hitler wanted his country to thrive. Cool.

I think you get the point.

Evil actions make you evil. The End.

[BenPass]

Exclusives vs. Absolutes
Do Sith Deal in Absolutes or Exclusives?

Absolutes can be defined in part as being:

complete; not mixed; outright; free from restriction or limitation; not limited in any way: absolute command; unrestrained; viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic; something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc.; something that is free from any restriction or condition.

I think that the main points that leap out at me are these: something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc.; something that is free from any restriction or condition.

So first, is the statement, “Only Sith deal in absolutes,” an absolute statement? Is the statement dependent on ANYTHING for its specific nature? Or is it free from any restriction or condition?

Looking at the broader definition, is the statement free from restriction and unlimited? It seems to me that the statement is, by its very nature, restrictive.

Keep in mind that it states that “ONLY Sith deal in absolutes”. The fact that it is ONLY Sith means that there is a restriction to the statement; that you must be Sith to deal in absolutes.

In order for the statement to be an absolute statement, Obi-Wan would have had to say, “Everyone deals in absolutes,” or even, “Sith deal in absolutes”. That way, no restriction is put on who is dealing with absolutes, and it produces an absolute statement.



Now, with Absolutes defined, let’s move on to Exclusives.

Exclusives can be defined in part as:

not admitting of something else; incompatible: mutually exclusive plans of action. Omitting from consideration or account; limited to the object or objects designated; shutting out all others from a part or share
So, an exclusive statement is something that is not admitting of anything else, is limited to what is designated, and shuts out all others. In order for something to be exclusive, by nature, it must be restrictive.

Basically, if something is exclusive, it is very narrow and there is no room for an alternate option.

The statement, “ONLY Sith deal in absolutes,” is exclusive by that definition. The reason is that it is a very restrictive, narrow statement. Rather than absolutes being something used by all people, or even several groups of people, it is restricted to the Sith (in Obi-Wan’s statement).



Now, before any final note is made, let us examine Anakin’s statement that led to Obi-Wan’s Exclusive statement.

Anakin said, “If you're not with me, then you are my enemy.”

When we look at that statement by the same rules as we used for Obi-Wan’s, we have to ask:

Is it an Absolute Statement? Is the statement something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc.?

Or is it an Exclusive Statement? Is it something that is not admitting of anything else, is limited to what is designated, and shuts out all others; something that is restrictive; very narrow with no room for an alternate option?

It seems to me that Anakin’s statement is dependent upon Obi-Wan’s decision. Basically, the young Vader gives Obi-Wan a choice; there IS room for an alternate option. That means that his statement is NOT Exclusive in nature. It also cannot be an Absolute Statement because it is dependent upon Obi-Wan’s choice.



Where does that leave us? Obi-Wan’s statement was not an Absolute…then again, neither was Anakin’s. Neither of the statements fit what is needed to be called an Absolute Statement.

Now, before anyone starts asking, “But why did Obi-Wan call it an Absolute if it wasn’t,” I have one, simple answer for you.

You ready for it?

Are you sure?

Brace yourself.

Here it comes.

BAD WRITING!!

That’s all that this exchange is according to the English language. Neither statement is an Absolute and one of them isn’t even Exclusive. Good ol’ Uncle George screwed up there, and that’s all there is.

If you still want to argue the merits of the Sith vs. the Jedi, that’s another thing entirely. You can’t use the above statement as anything other than an example of bad writing, and not understanding the English language.


I am still of the opinion that (by and large) the Sith are evil and the Jedi are good. There will always be exceptions, reasons for actions, bad (or good) choices, and the option for redemption or falling. That’s what makes good storytelling.

With all that said though, keep in mind the terms used for the two acts…Jedi who become Sith “fall to the Dark Side”…Sith who become Jedi “are redeemed”. Though you may not agree with what is written, or my thoughts, the simple fact of the matter is that the Jedi are intended to be the “good guys” and the Sith are intended to be the “bad guys”.

Nothing changes what Uncle George originally intended other than Uncle George himself.


I hope that this has been helpful and interesting to anyone who bothered to read it all the way through.

TL;DR version, BAD WRITING! NEITHER ARE ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS! EAT PIE!

[TheHobbitofDune]

All my points are belong to you. Great post, Ben, very insightful too.

[Kitra]

First, I re-read "It doesn't need to be mentioned in canon for the parallels to be obvious. In fact, it would be completely ridiculous for them to say that in canon." and I admit I read it wrong the first time.
Second, "Only those that devoted almost all of their being to the dark side, such as Darth Sidious, would have their appearance radically altered.[9] It should be noted that Sidious's most drastic physical alterations occurred during the lightsaber duel with Jedi Master Mace Windu; Windu having used his own lightsaber to deflect Sidious's Force lightning causing the uncontrolled energy to radically alter Sidious's physical features" (Like yours, also taken from Wookieepedia)
Third, you say Vader was evil because he killed thousands out of love. Kyp Durron killed BILLIONS out of revenge and he is a Jedi Master, and not considered evil.
Fourth, Talking about the Sith academy is not really limiting the amount of Sith I'm talking about. The Sith Academy was running more than 6,000 years before the Rule of 2. (That's a lot of Sith)
Fifth, 5 Sith. The Emperor, Maul, Dooku, Anakin, and Jacen. The last 3 I can't call evil. They may have done some bad things, but they are not evil.

DARTH sidious didnt receive his Deformation s during the fight.
He used a old sithalchemy camouflage to hide his powerful dark side aura from the jedis rjght before him as well as his hixeous face. DDuring his excessive use of lightning this cloak was dispelled and hjs true face was shown.
He got hurt during the process of course but the deformations begin immediately after giving in completely to the  dark side. Tyrannus was on the edge while you could see mauls foul teeth in most of his scenes.
ASsaj wasnt powerful enough for deformations yet.

[Darth_Arkanus]

DARTH sidious didnt receive his Deformation s during the fight.
He used a old sithalchemy camouflage to hide his powerful dark side aura from the jedis rjght before him as well as his hixeous face. DDuring his excessive use of lightning this cloak was dispelled and hjs true face was shown.
He got hurt during the process of course but the deformations begin immediately after giving in completely to the  dark side. Tyrannus was on the edge while you could see mauls foul teeth in most of his scenes.
ASsaj wasnt powerful enough for deformations yet.

I'm sorry but from where did you get the idea that Sidious was deformed and cloaking himself, and that excessive effort plus injury caused him to "decloak"? I'm afraid that is the most ludicrous idea I've yet heard. If you watch the scene carefully you can see the lightning licking around his face and deforming him as it goes.

Now OK, if "Uncle George" says otherwise, we have to accept it, albeit grudgingly in this case as I think it's a dumb explanation where a far more sensible explanation is readily at hand.

As for Tyranus, again, I don't really see what you are doing. He was in his 80s, arthritic, but still stronger than Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, until Anakin allowed hate and rage to flow through him.

As we have got into the territory of crazy non-canon explanations of things, are you ready for another one?

Ready?

Here goes!

"In the final fight between Tyranus and Vader, Sidious (who is sat a few feet away) uses his ability to channel the Dark Side to artificially increase Vader's reflexes and destructive potential as a way to get rid of Tyranus; whom Sidious sees as warn-out, past his best and a stop-gap apprentice."

[Master Rel]

As noted this is an angry loop...the most difficult thing in reference to this topic is to convince the opposing side that they are wrong and you are right.

Again pulling up specific examples to make point without looking at the whole is watching the world go by through a microscope...difficult to see the big picture.

Just for grins I looked up Kyp Durron as I had no idea who he was.  Yes he committed the atrocities as noted but...and it is a big butt...he was corrupted by the spirit of the Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun.

It is often thrown up as a Jedi are evil and unjust because Mace was willing to cut down prune face but where is the same consideration for Order 66?

In the end in the grand scheme, looking at the whole, the idea of defending sith beyond being interesting villains...and they are villains, by design...the idea of hero worship to those who do more harm and good for whatever initial reason is odd at the least.

Now I appreciate an evil character, sith included...certainly more now than a couple years ago...they are colorful and powerful...in a video game that sounds great.  

I did not grow up playing star wars video games that allowed players to be the bad guys, sith and dark jedi, slicing and dicing for power ups...so this is an aspect that is lost on me.

I grew up with Vader torturing his daughter, cutting off his son's hand in an effort to give him to the guy who enslaved him in turn, and later (earlier) we see Annie behaving shall we say...badly...slaughtering children, women and kids in the desert, force choking his pregnant wife, and trying to kill his best friend and father figure.

I like Vader...he makes a great villain...iconic.  Darth Vader : sith : villain : evil

If you like the sith then stand up and be counted!  But there is no reason to candy coat their actions and attitudes, let them shine for the reasons they should shine for...being powerful, intriguing, tortured, and whatever other related reason you like...but there is no need to pretend they are nice, decent, or heroic.  

Jedi are patterned after feudal Samurai.  This is clear.  Later Uncle Lucas added the Monk aspect also.  Does this mean that all samurai were always honorable, just, and knightly...absolutely not.  There are many tales of evil deeds, injustice, cruelty, and layers of corruption...which is the foundation of sith.  

A story I read years ago, translated from Japanese, a story of a young samurai of clan Honda...the head of the clan had been poisoned, the family was fleeing from an assault to the main house, Yoshida leads the wife and children away through a back gate across a small bridge, they are overtaken by a large force and the young samurai stand his ground on the bridge...not for any reason other than it was his duty and honor to serve others...he stood and died, but not before turning away dozens and leaving the others terrified that he was still alive on the bridge...later to find that he kept standing due to the arrows and spears pinning him up...he slew a handful that tried to cross through the process of the event.

This is Jedi.

Uncle Lucas read stories like this and developed a foundation.  He took the hard nosed culture with a serious outlook towards just about everything...tradition and honor.  

Nearly any story or character can be related to out of context and spun how ever you like.

The most famous Earth villain was a decent painter with real potential for fine art...still an evil bass'tard no matter how you look at it.

Pruneface was a villain...no other way to look at it...evil...power hungry...black hearted.

So rather than beat a dead horse in an effort to debate a subject that can not ever be won, may I offer that we just appreciate the characters we like for whatever reason and not look to defend them with a hard candy shell?

[Kitra]

I'm sorry but from where did you get the idea that Sidious was deformed and cloaking himself, and that excessive effort plus injury caused him to "decloak"? I'm afraid that is the most ludicrous idea I've yet heard. If you watch the scene carefully you can see the lightning licking around his face and deforming him as it goes.

Now OK, if "Uncle George" says otherwise, we have to accept it, albeit grudgingly in this case as I think it's a dumb explanation where a far more sensible explanation is readily at hand.

As for Tyranus, again, I don't really see what you are doing. He was in his 80s, arthritic, but still stronger than Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, until Anakin allowed hate and rage to flow through him.

As we have got into the territory of crazy non-canon explanations of things, are you ready for another one?

Ready?

Here goes!

"In the final fight between Tyranus and Vader, Sidious (who is sat a few feet away) uses his ability to channel the Dark Side to artificially increase Vader's reflexes and destructive potential as a way to get rid of Tyranus; whom Sidious sees as warn-out, past his best and a stop-gap apprentice."

Hello Sir!
Please dont apologize for your eagerness to gather up information to match up your own. I think that is a very good attitude. A learner by heart you may say.
I have this information from the official Star Wars Roleplaying game which is sanctioned by GL and there is a old force technique in the Alchemy pass that say so. As well as pointed this exact moment out where sidious was fighting mace.
This is the same technique that he used to alter his force appeareance to powerhouses like the perceptive Yoda himself while standing merely 2 meters away from him.
Deception is the greatest asset of the dark Side Sidious sayed once.
I can gather more details but im sure it is in the Dark Side Source Book.

My best wishes.

[Kitra]

As we have got into the territory of crazy non-canon explanations of things, are you ready for another one?

Ready?

Here goes!

"In the final fight between Tyranus and Vader, Sidious (who is sat a few feet away) uses his ability to channel the Dark Side to artificially increase Vader's reflexes and destructive potential as a way to get rid of Tyranus; whom Sidious sees as warn-out, past his best and a stop-gap apprentice."

Was that a kind of sarcasm or do you really read that somewhere Darth Arkanus?

So i finally found the first part of what i was reffering before and i write it down word for word so that you may benefit from that intel. :

"While the Dark Side offers a quick path to power for those who feel the flow of the force, it also extracts a high price from those who dipinto the well too frequently. This price takes the form of a long term withering of the charackters physical attributes. Early in a darksiders career, the ratio of power to negative effect runs in favor to the power the dark side provides. Each time a force-sensitive charackter calls on the dark side, however the urge to again feel the electric flow of power grows stronger. It becomes easier to gain Dark Side Points, to fall deeper and deeper into the darkness . In the middle stages of a charackters career as the charackter becomes first tainted and then dark in nature, the power the dark side provides begins to collect what is owed to it. With great effort, a balance can be attained for a while. As a charackter reaches higher levels the long term effects of dark side use begin to show. The charackter grows weaker in body, all the while growing stronger and stronger in the dark side of the force. Eventually, the darksiders body begins to fail as it is corrupted and rotted away by the darkness and evil flowing through it."

The Dark Side Soucebook Page 39