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Author Topic: Sith or Jedi?  (Read 66619 times)
Tsurabisu
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« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2013, 03:46:08 AM »

Ben...I was being nice Smiley

Thinking that enlightenment could be granted even in measure over an interweb debate lol.


The Dalai Lama stops by a hot dog vendor and says he will be one with everything  Cheesy

 

Whew...I want to leave this one alone because it is your favorite, but on the other hand I just gotta say something.

On the positive side that is a great quote for a villain.

On the negative side that is a crazy quote for a regular person  Sad

I had a full breakdown of the quote but it ended up being a lot meaner than I would have ever intended...so I deleted it.

The quote is perfect for representing the sith...in all that that entails.

Smiley


You don't have to worry about being mean. This is an online discussion and I'm not the type of person to get butthurt over someone else's opinion. So, no worries. And that goes for everyone involved in this topic. What the quote means is that the Jedi call the Sith and the Dark side evil because they don't understand the Dark side and refuse to learn what it's about.  Light and Dark... Good and Evil... You know, what it really comes down to is "They are different than me, they believe something different than what I do, I don't understand them. They should be destroyed." Jedi have hunted down and destroyed the Sith. Sith have hunted down and destroyed Jedi.

"Destroy the Sith, we must." -Yoda
"We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end."
―Palpatine
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Kitra
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Force Alignment: 38
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"Use the force, Harry" -Gandalf


« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2013, 05:02:23 AM »

Wow. I'm gone for a day and there's lots of new good stuff. I like the passages from the books, and I read up on the "Mask" ability, and you're correct about several things about it. The skill was created for the board game.

"The "Mask" ability was proposed by the Star Wars Roleplaying Game as a method of resolving the debate behind Palpatine's transfiguration during his battle with the Jedi Order. Sources had suggested that Palpatine had been hiding his true features until the battle, and when combined with the damage from the lightning, the result was the disfiguration seen on-screen." (Taken from wookieepedia)

The article does go on to say, however that "It is said that Palpatine, a master at Sith alchemy, may have used this technique in order to conceal his appearance from the people of the Republic and present a more appealing facade. If he did, his encounter with Mace Windu and several other Jedi Masters changed that, when Mace reflected Palpatine's lightning blast back at him, disfiguring the Sith Lord's face."

It says "may have" and "If he did" Nothing canon says that he in fact did use it while the comic "Sithisis" says that he was devoured by a Sith Wyrm and that by killing the Wyrm from the inside, he is able to alter his physical form.

On the subject that Dark side corrupts, again, mater of choice. One would have to choose to abuse the Force. Also, as I posted before, rarely is anyone physically changed by the Force.
" Darth Tyranus and Galen Marek, for example, did not suffer any of the physical degeneration of the dark side, and their eyes only assumed the yellow hue during moments of anger.[24][25] Luke Skywalker suffered none of these effects during his brief bout of intense anger that allowed him to disarm Darth Vader, nor did Kyle Katarn during either of the times that he was (at least partially) driven by the dark side against Jerec and later Desann" (Taken from wookieepedia)

"It should be noted that Sidious's most drastic physical alterations occurred during the lightsaber duel with Jedi Master Mace Windu; Windu having used his own lightsaber to deflect Sidious's Force lightning causing the uncontrolled energy to radically alter Sidious's physical features." (Taken from wookieepedia)
"The worst case of this transformation would be Darth Nihilus, who not only was completely consumed by the dark side mentally but also physically. He had become a living entity of the dark side of the Force and uncaring of all life." (Taken from wookieepedia)  What this says to me is that it may break down the body, but what you become after is a physical representation of the Force, so it's not really that your body is destroyed over time, you just become one with the Force.

A theory I have, if you'll allow me. It is said that the Dark side destroys the body of the user over time. I could argue that so does the Light side of the Force. But instead of taking a little piece each time you use it, the Light side waits until you're finished (Dead) and then takes it all at once. And that is why stronger Jedi Masters vanish when they die.

About Sith being evil, the last thing I will say about it is one of my favorite quotes. "Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."
―Darth Zannah

I admit that I really enjoy this conversation as well and I am looking forward to more of this exchanging ideas in the near future as well.
As for this part you got to admit that some kind “Force Mask” was in place or else  yoda as well as every other member of the Jedi Council would have spotted Sidious from the beginning. In a RPG Storyteller Rulebook its always a if and when as well as possibly and maybe since it is a unspoken rule that there are only the rules the gamemaster seems fit so the writers encourage all fantasys with this “maybe´s”.

Even when it may seem differently atm I am not at all someone who likes the idea of unmovable facts of fantasy I love it to play around with them as well as most of the other user enjoy and practice it here. I am just sharing what I was obliged to read in the last decade of Star Wars Roleplaying and I am always very glad to share the “lore” which  has been printed down by Lucas Arts and his Partners.


The theory you have shared is very interesting so I thank you for this idea.
Since the Dark Side is able to kill a practitioner and the light side is able to prolong the life “naturally” I would rather think of it a bit differently.
The absorption into the force is for me more like the total enlightment where the Jedi sheds his mortal shell and becomes a being of pure energy which has the ability to share glimpses of its wisdom to the ones on which destiny heeds a higher purpose to bring peace and harmony, wisdom and friendship as well as the possibility of growth instead of any egocentric actions.

The Dark Side can prolong the life expotentially as well (sorry was that written right? ^^) but only to the ends of the practitioners own sake and lust for power and neverending rulership over his victims since he accepts no equals.


"Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."
―Darth Zannah

Hmpf- I read Rule of the jungle, Eat or get eaten, only rely on yourself, observe everyone who may be a threat.

Nah I don’t want to life like an animal…
For me and my moral compass there are helpful and harmful acts of thought (which most often becomes actions)

BUT!!!!! I believe we are drifting away from fiction into real life and in real life lets face it everyone just wants their peace and freedom with the space compassionately granted by others who are near to express oneself through his individual spleens Wink

Uff that was longer than I thought thank you for bearing with me the whole post!

My best wishes for you!
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Kitra
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Force Alignment: 38
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"Use the force, Harry" -Gandalf


« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2013, 05:09:57 AM »

You don't have to worry about being mean. This is an online discussion and I'm not the type of person to get butthurt over someone else's opinion. So, no worries. And that goes for everyone involved in this topic. What the quote means is that the Jedi call the Sith and the Dark side evil because they don't understand the Dark side and refuse to learn what it's about.  Light and Dark... Good and Evil... You know, what it really comes down to is "They are different than me, they believe something different than what I do, I don't understand them. They should be destroyed." Jedi have hunted down and destroyed the Sith. Sith have hunted down and destroyed Jedi.

"Destroy the Sith, we must." -Yoda
"We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end."
―Palpatine

Hmm i never saw a sith make a good deed to anyone but himself as well as i think that treachery and assassination can not be compared to the will to save innocents and maintain the freedom of the individual on all planets in the Galaxy through protection of the ones who are willing to accept the guardians of light.
The Jedis understand the Sith in what they leave behind them... Slaves, War, suffering, treachery, Hate, Fear and the goal to extiguish the compassion of every individual.
Just for example: Aliens are highly unwelcome in the times of the empire only humans were allowed to hold higher titles of any kind. Reminds me of someone in the german history who wanted to rule everything through superiour warfare to force his understanding of a ruler class species upon others i dare to say. The comparability is frightning... Sad

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Tsurabisu
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« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2013, 05:33:12 AM »

Hmm i never saw a sith make a good deed to anyone but himself as well as i think that treachery and assassination can not be compared to the will to save innocents and maintain the freedom of the individual on all planets in the Galaxy through protection of the ones who are willing to accept the guardians of light.
The Jedis understand the Sith in what they leave behind them... Slaves, War, suffering, treachery, Hate, Fear and the goal to extiguish the compassion of every individual.
Just for example: Aliens are highly unwelcome in the times of the empire only humans were allowed to hold higher titles of any kind. Reminds me of someone in the german history who wanted to rule everything through superiour warfare to force his understanding of a ruler class species upon others i dare to say. The comparability is frightning... Sad


"Yes, The Emperor was a HUGE xenophobe. Not only that, but he was also a sexist. Darth Vectivus, on the other hand, was a good person. Here's a quote from Legacy of the Force: Betrayal   "Never heard of him."
"That's because he did no evil. He didn't attempt to conquer the galaxy, try to wipe out the population of a star system, or start an all-out war with the Jedi. He just existed, learned. Died of old age, surrounded by family and friends."
―Lumiya discusses Darth Vectivus' character with Jacen Solo
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Kitra
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"Use the force, Harry" -Gandalf


« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2013, 05:42:24 AM »

"Yes, The Emperor was a HUGE xenophobe. Not only that, but he was also a sexist. Darth Vectivus, on the other hand, was a good person. Here's a quote from Legacy of the Force: Betrayal   "Never heard of him."
"That's because he did no evil. He didn't attempt to conquer the galaxy, try to wipe out the population of a star system, or start an all-out war with the Jedi. He just existed, learned. Died of old age, surrounded by family and friends."
―Lumiya discusses Darth Vectivus' character with Jacen Solo

This is one exception. Can you count another? Wink
I believe (correct me if im wrong) only 2 individuals are known to be able to resist the dark urges to such an extend.
And both come from the legacy line. Cade Skywalker and Darth Vectivus.
Luke Skywalkers ability to use Dark Side techniques are something different which is stated in the books about that story.
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Master Rel
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« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2013, 05:43:55 AM »

"Yes, The Emperor was a HUGE anorectal malformation. Not only that, but he was also a misogynist.


Fixed that for ya!

Cheesy
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Tsurabisu
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« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2013, 06:33:08 AM »

This is one exception. Can you count another? Wink
I believe (correct me if im wrong) only 2 individuals are known to be able to resist the dark urges to such an extend.
And both come from the legacy line. Cade Skywalker and Darth Vectivus.
Luke Skywalkers ability to use Dark Side techniques are something different which is stated in the books about that story.
One could argue Vestara Khai, but quite frankly, there is just nowhere near the number of Sith that there are Jedi. I could make a much longer list of Jedi who used the Dark side, "redeemed themselves" and continued being Jedi. Many Jedi, it seems, cheat at being a Jedi by giving into the Dark side when it benefits them, but that's okay. They're still Jedi at heart so it doesn't count.
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Kitra
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"Use the force, Harry" -Gandalf


« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2013, 06:56:43 AM »

One could argue Vestara Khai, but quite frankly, there is just nowhere near the number of Sith that there are Jedi. I could make a much longer list of Jedi who used the Dark side, "redeemed themselves" and continued being Jedi. Many Jedi, it seems, cheat at being a Jedi by giving into the Dark side when it benefits them, but that's okay. They're still Jedi at heart so it doesn't count.

Quite so yes. I believe the stories about redeemed former friends sell better... ^^
Tragedy sells... Wink
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Darth_Arkanus
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« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2013, 07:33:39 AM »

Erm, one point about xenophobia and non-humans rising to high rank. Palpatine was from Naboo, so you could argue that his xenophobia is ingrained in his society (that's what causes the problems with the Gungans, until war forces them to get over themselves!) In that respect, the actions of the Sith have unexpected GOOD consequences! lol

But back to Palpatine's xenophobia, explain Grand Admiral Thrawn then. He's got BLUE skin for goodness sake!!! He surely isn't human.
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Venom "Durance of Hate"
Scorpion "Durance of Rage"
Dominix LE "Acolyte of Vengeance"
Phantasm LE "Twins of Tyranny"
Gladius "Acolyte of Agony"

Tsurabisu
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« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2013, 07:40:46 AM »

Erm, one point about xenophobia and non-humans rising to high rank. Palpatine was from Naboo, so you could argue that his xenophobia is ingrained in his society (that's what causes the problems with the Gungans, until war forces them to get over themselves!) In that respect, the actions of the Sith have unexpected GOOD consequences! lol

But back to Palpatine's xenophobia, explain Grand Admiral Thrawn then. He's got BLUE skin for goodness sake!!! He surely isn't human.

"He is also the last Grand Admiral promoted by the Emperor; he earns the rank because of his instrumental role in stopping Grand Admiral Zaarin's attempted coup, receiving the late Zaarin's rank and position as a reward." (Taken from wookieepedia)  Also, he was given his first commission by Captain Parck, not the Emperor.
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Kitra
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« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2013, 08:15:35 AM »

The emperors values a good tool but only to the extend where it is useful to him.
But his overall politic (when you find the time to look into that) is Anti- Alien to the extend of several tryed but failed genocids of Species other than human.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2013, 10:20:35 AM »

"Yes, The Emperor was a HUGE xenophobe. Not only that, but he was also a sexist. Darth Vectivus, on the other hand, was a good person. Here's a quote from Legacy of the Force: Betrayal   "Never heard of him."
"That's because he did no evil. He didn't attempt to conquer the galaxy, try to wipe out the population of a star system, or start an all-out war with the Jedi. He just existed, learned. Died of old age, surrounded by family and friends."
―Lumiya discusses Darth Vectivus' character with Jacen Solo

Yes, I'd very much like to see what Rel says about this guy.
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I have a Sith's opinion of the Jedi and a Jedi's opinion of the Sith.




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Kitra
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"Use the force, Harry" -Gandalf


« Reply #117 on: May 23, 2013, 11:32:57 AM »

Yes, I'd very much like to see what Rel says about this guy.

In your replys I would be more interested in your opinion Rogueleader. Smiley
And who is this Rel you are talking about?

Laters
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Master Rel
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« Reply #118 on: May 23, 2013, 02:22:18 PM »

Yes, I'd very much like to see what Rel says about this guy.

(clipped)

Though a proponent of the dark side, Darth Vectivus' self-discipline and preexisting code of ethics allowed him to remain fair and balanced without succumbing to the lure of power which plagued many of the Sith Lords who preceded him. He eventually returned to the mine and maintained a plentiful existence in the company of friends and loved ones alike.

(clipped)


This is an interesting one for sure.  It goes a long way to consider the basics of humanity and the length and breadth of how we can behave or misbehave.

Some Jedi push the limits by not conforming to all the aspects as the Council would prefer...some sith also push the same limits the other way.

People are people and have the potential for that full range.

Although there is more opportunity to be a bit rough around the edges in the Jedi order then generally found within the sith order to behave in a manner such as Darth Vectivus...one could easily see a calm non-aggressive sith becoming a target of a power hungry underling.

But for sure he is an exception to the rule, keeping the corruption in check...if there were more of his example that would make for an interesting turn in the whole Jedi and sith relations.

Cheesy

PS
I am the Rel in question  Wink
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Kitra
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« Reply #119 on: May 23, 2013, 02:38:52 PM »

Ah i see then Hello Rel! Smiley

I was just hoping for more individual statements except the "what would Mr. X think about that".
May i be assured that you know what i meant?

For a Sith it was the only option to survive with that attitude. In the non Sith environment he was able to hold his balance since he was away from the evil Manipulations of his order.
Yet would he have stayed with the Sith as a whole in an academy or warcenter he would have had no other chance then to indulge in evil or be overthrown within the blink of an eye by an powerhungry "eviler" underling or counterpart in strength to gain his powerbase.

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