The ending stages of a duel

[boldfullmetal]

for me whenever i start a duel i always keep my distance and let the opponent make the first move and then try to judge skill based on movements, and if i know that they are way more skilled then me. i make a tactical  retreat aka running away. then try to find terrain that gives me an advantage.  

[Master VorNach]

Adrenaline helps us deal with threats, so there's a few things that happen. Debateably, Your reflexes are heightened, and your cognitive skills speed up. This makes things seem to happen in slow motion. Your body increases muscle respiration, increasing strength. Your body also releases dopamine and endorphins that can help mitigate pain. I have an amateur understanding mind you, I'm sure Master Nonymous could expand on this. Anyways learning to react in a desirable manner when faced with an adrenaline rush goes back to my first post about muscle memory and training your body to react the way you want to react.

[Pedantic]
Adrenaline (epinephrine) is released during times of danger or other high stress events.
There are a host of other hormones that are released during times like these and they produce a variety of effects physically and cognitively; reduced fine motor control, impaired long term memory processing, increased blood flow to major muscle groups, changes in perception, turning down digestion, the immune system and reproductive system, among others.  You don't actually get any stronger and changes in the perception of time are not happening the way we usually think about it (see my previous post**). However your body is ready to move in some fashion (fight or flight) and more resources are available than when you're sitting in your easy chair eating chips.

These responses vary based on how significant the stressor is to the person being subjected to the situation. Experience/exposure can change how strong the impact is and some people are more resilient to the effects than others. High levels of stress or even moderate levels, where the situation is not resolved can lead to longer term problems. If the problem is resolved (charging lion is shot, car misses hitting you, you miss hitting the other car, you don't forget your lines, you don't fail the test, etc) means everything goes back to normal.

I think what we here are going to deal with more often in our pursuit is a lower level of stress, often a level that is sometimes called "healthy stress". It's the kind of thing people experience when the danger is minimal but the situation is still exciting (watching a really good horror film, sky diving, sword fighting, double overtime in the finals and you have the ball). At this level you get some of the effects that heighten/focus your senses, provide you with extra energy, etc; all the feelings that make you "feel alive". And when the event is over you weren't in any real danger (you did have a spare chute right? You're wearing proper safety gear for sparring, correct?) and the come down from the event.



http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/190049/epinephrine-and-norepinephrine
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Zebras-Dont-Ulcers-Third/dp/0805073698
**http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001295
[/Pedantic][/b]

As a side note I'll be talking about more of this sort of thing when TPLA begins the roll out of our information and training for Form "0".

To get back on topic...
And as Master Lucian said. if you're subjecting yourself to the "healthy stress" level activities (sparring, rehearsing your speech, taking drivers ed) as part of a regular training program you can then also train yourself to respond more in the way you want to when the stress is real (tournament, presentation, first time on I-94).

[Bluesky]

Excellent post Master VorNach

Can you give yourself a point? Your last TPLA upload was for me one of your very best, covering grounding, posture, balance and many other fundamental mechanics. Looking forward to Form 0 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g25d7_Afmc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g25d7_Afmc</a>

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[Darth Nonymous]

Adrenaline helps us deal with threats, so there's a few things that happen. Debateably, Your reflexes are heightened, and your cognitive skills speed up. This makes things seem to happen in slow motion. Your body increases muscle respiration, increasing strength. Your body also releases dopamine and endorphins that can help mitigate pain. I have an amateur understanding mind you, I'm sure Master Nonymous could expand on this. Anyways learning to react in a desirable manner when faced with an adrenaline rush goes back to my first post about muscle memory and training your body to react the way you want to react.

Master VorNach did a good job of explaining this so I will just add some commentary.

Things like "muscle memory", "adrenaline" and the like are really lay persons terms that are terribly over simplistic. There is far more that goes into our experience of stress than one thing.

Another thing to remember is that while the time slowing is a function of recall, almost everything is. Different people will find differnt situations easier or harder. When something seems to happen very fast when we look back on it, it usually means were did not recall most of the details of the event. Our memory snips these pieces together so when you think back you say "It all happened so fast". Panic is the biggest culprit and it can have contradictory effects. If the panic and confusion set in and the event is traumatic enough, many will have the experience of "freezing". Their perception of the event is clear,  (a mugging attack lets say) it was short and traumatic. Panic sets in and you cannot act, it is happening to fast. But when you look back on it, time seems to slow down and you remember how you couldn't move for what seems like a long time. IT wasn't but the outcome of the event will shade how you view it.
 
We all have speeds at which feel feel comfortable doing things. It frustrates us when other people have different speeds and we have to work with them. Sam goes for the experience of stress. Fighter pilots have nerves of steel at mach 3, but will be helpless babies at the speed of hand to hand combat. Often it is because it is too slow for their processing, more often it's because there is another person hitting them. All factors.

And with recall, that feeling of hyper awareness and energy is only experienced after the encounter as your body down regulates your physical processes. The feeling it's self (if you were to experience it while not involved in some action) is very displeasing. Dizziness, loss of motor control, nausea, and feelings of anxiety are all hallmarks. The reason you dont feel them when they are going on is because your body is using the added hormones and stuff durning the encounter. Afterward, the sense of relief and well being over comes you as your heart rate and blood pressure start to drop and your mind calms down knowing you are out of danger. Hooray!

People with anxiety disorders have the physiological effects of stress without external stressors. They go in to fight or flight for no apparent reason. This is a debilitating condition. And anyone who has had an anxiety or panic attack can tell you, you do not feel like an invincible warrior during them.

[Ander]

We were discussing this a few weeks ago during a lesson, and I suggested that a possible reason of the different perception is that the opponent's swings go through a larger portion of your field of vision if you are fighting than if you are looking from the outside at a distance of several meters. Therefore, because the time of the actual movement remains the same, but the movement itself goes through what appears to you a longer path, it seems slower. Of course this wouldn't be true for a lunge, but I can't really tell, my last time fencing foil being in Secondary school. Comments?

[Darth Nonymous]

We were discussing this a few weeks ago during a lesson, and I suggested that a possible reason of the different perception is that the opponent's swings go through a larger portion of your field of vision if you are fighting than if you are looking from the outside at a distance of several meters. Therefore, because the time of the actual movement remains the same, but the movement itself goes through what appears to you a longer path, it seems slower. Of course this wouldn't be true for a lunge, but I can't really tell, my last time fencing foil being in Secondary school. Comments?

Well, my first comment is that it never seems to move slower in combat. Actually the opposite. Most of my students find it moves way faster and they are far slower than they thought. From the outside it is far easier to see what is happening and it looks slower.

 Also, the dynamic for the field of vision would  have the opposite effect on perceived speed. The closer you are and the more field of vison the blade takes up, the faster it will apear to move. this is why you have to scale movement when making big monster movies like Godzilla. The bigger and further away you are from an action the slower it appears to move.

 I think it is pretty well established that the time slowing effect is a function of memory as VorNach pointed out.  As we recall events, we can pick out more detail and we remember it being slowed down.

[eerockk]

Well, my first comment is that it never seems to move slower in combat. Actually the opposite. Most of my students find it moves way faster and they are far slower than they thought. From the outside it is far easier to see what is happening and it looks slower.

I rarely ever saw the strike that hit me... and I was amazed at the speed every time. +1 to the above.

[Oramac]

I'd like to echo/add a few thoughts if I may.

One major thing that people in general seem to always overlook about the Fight/Flight Response is the loss of fine motor control.   This is one area where my study of firearms actually has helped a lot.  In a stressful situation you lose the ability to manipulate fine controls (like an external firearm safety) in favor of being able to readily use large movements (like sprinting away, or kicking an attacker).   One of the best (if not the best) ways to allow for this is the muscle memory concept.  People who carry 1911 pistols every day, for example, train themselves to flick the safety off during their draw and presentation of the pistol.  This allows them to still perform that action in a high stress situation, even though they may have loss of other fine motor skills.    The same is presumably true in saber-based combat. 

The slowing effect Master Nonymous points out is more of a memory effect.  I would think it's similar to how the brain pieces together frames in a movie or video game to form a complete picture.  The brain can piece together widely separated images.  This is why Flip-books work.  The brain fills in the missing frames to form a complete motion.  But it works in similar ways to slow or fast motion film capture.  In film, a low framerate played at normal speed appears to play much faster and, conversely, a film with high a framerate played at normal speed appears to be in slow motion.  I'm no expert, but it seems possible that our brains may function in a similar manner during times of high stress.

[dhenwood]

In my experience and knowledge duels are over quickly, whenever i did reenactment fights would last 10 secs average. This is also consistent with what we know of the duration of battles given the number of men at them etc. That is the realistic approach anyhow, the realism relies on two things however a lack of wanting to enjoy the duel or showing off and the want to genuinely hurt your opponent to an extent and to disable them from continuing the match (or more likely kill them).

In terms of a friendly duel with your mates then it wont last for over two minutes imo even with messing around and gauging each other etc due to you knowing each others tactics, going light etc. this imo rules out winning on cardio - without trying to be rude if your cardio can not get you through 2 minutes of sword duelling then its something that needs to be worked on. average people used to swinging a sword or weapon of any type will not tire that fast.

Lots of drilling for muscle response will help you end a duel quickly too, exchange blocks n blows back and forth in a scripted manner (right to left down the body will do) to train yourself as other have said to react and move intuitively, this is the same for any apsect of any martial art or choreography, make it instinct.

The final moments of a duel specifically im trying to say should be every moment of the duel, the intent to win is already there you may give ground you may have a laugh with your friends but if your duelling in a serious (but still safe manner) the emphasis should be to win so train till your muscle memory takes over and it wont really be important.

[Bluesky]

Hi there from Australia

Very interesting posts which I all agree with in principle; memory can play tricks. What I am talking about is a perception event in combat/sport/surfing where your perception alters in that moment. I think the video I posted is correct; adrenaline heightens senses, focus, reflex, and thought processes most of all. Elite athletes seem to be able to switch on this ability at will; I require certain pressures of intense sparring.

For me one of the biggest factors is resting heart rate; like a tennis player lowering their heart rate rapidly in between serves, experienced swordsmen are able to recover quicker then the average swordsmen. Exchanges are often over in seconds and they don't always win out over them or they over yourself. When I used to teach I would have all young people, stop and bounce a ball, take deep breathes, imagine standing under a waterfall. Anything to activate their imagination in between exchanges and lower their heart rate.

I put allot of weight on the one who can:

1/ Learn from the exchange and their opponent.
2/ Recover and lower heart rate.
3/ Stay calm and focused.
4/ Creativity
5/ Training/Technique

There are strategies for each of these factors but really it takes time to learn them. Looking at other sports where time seems to distort here's a good clip and its explanation from utube:

As skydivers, our perception of time doesn't always adhere to "real time." Sometimes it feels like we're floating instead of falling, and a mere 60 seconds can feel like a lifetime. So we decided to slow things down a little. With the help of Fabio at Ragna Films and Fly Factory in Boituva, Brazil, here's our take on time distortion.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfGzwXOm8Ck" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfGzwXOm8Ck</a>

Interesting point about your firearm experience Oramac. I believe the heightened thought processes developed in us to survive extreme events and some people can use it at will. It is definitely a real brain phenomena, as far as I have experienced, studied by many sports scientists but I am open for more info. As for resting heart rates I read somewhere that certain navy seals and others have this ability to not be affected and over react in stressful situations, a calm under fire ability that they were born with. Anyone hear anything about that?

Perhaps what you mean by memory is that in that heightened event more memories are being stored in that moment? Time isn't slowing in that moment; our brains are just opening the lens of reality - What we see is only a fraction of what is. Obviously time doesn't change but in that state when time does seem to slow everything comes together...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q58BIIN8r7s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q58BIIN8r7s</a>

Excellent posts I have learnt allot

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[Master VorNach]

One major thing that people in general seem to always overlook about the Fight/Flight Response is the loss of fine motor control.   This is one area where my study of firearms actually has helped a lot.  In a stressful situation you lose the ability to manipulate fine controls (like an external firearm safety) in favor of being able to readily use large movements (like sprinting away, or kicking an attacker).   One of the best (if not the best) ways to allow for this is the muscle memory concept.  People who carry 1911 pistols every day, for example, train themselves to flick the safety off during their draw and presentation of the pistol.  This allows them to still perform that action in a high stress situation, even though they may have loss of other fine motor skills.    The same is presumably true in saber-based combat. 

Yes, this is one of the major points we're making. While high stress events can impact your physical functioning (among other things) it's possible to train for specific responses under stressful circumstances. This is where you see apparently amazing responses from professionals in circumstances where others are just standing still, or running away.

[Krebz]

You guys do an absolutley amazing job of teaching


Well done guys

[Master VorNach]

Very interesting posts which I all agree with in principle; memory can play tricks. What I am talking about is a perception event in combat/sport/surfing where your perception alters in that moment. I think the video I posted is correct; adrenaline heightens senses, focus, reflex, and thought processes most of all.

To an extent there is some heightening of the senses and improved processing however there can come a point where cognitive skills become impaired and the magnified sensory input can contribute to problems further down the road; PTSD has some of it's beginnings in this process.
It's worth noting that when we're talking about various traits being heightened or enhanced we're not talking about superhuman levels. You cannot go beyond what your body is physically capable of doing; you're not going to lift a car that has rolled on top of your schnauzer. You could be performing at a higher level than what you're used to but it's not super powers.

Interesting point about your firearm experience Oramac. I believe the heightened thought processes developed in us to survive extreme events and some people can use it at will. It is definitely a real brain phenomena, as far as I have experienced, studied by many sports scientists but I am open for more info. As for resting heart rates I read somewhere that certain navy seals and others have this ability to not be affected and over react in stressful situations, a calm under fire ability that they were born with. Anyone hear anything about that?

This is one of the points we've been talking about, you can train to change your responses during times of stress. Some people have higher tolerances to stressful situations so they may have an easier time of adapting and could seem, especially to someone who is not as resilient, to be amazingly adaptive.

Perhaps what you mean by memory is that in that heightened event more memories are being stored in that moment? Time isn't slowing in that moment; our brains are just opening the lens of reality - What we see is only a fraction of what is. Obviously time doesn't change but in that state when time does seem to slow everything comes together...

We can only remember what we perceive, what we pay attention to. During stressful events we're paying a great deal of attention to some things. Novel experiences also can take more of our attention and after the fact, as we process what we just saw/heard/touched/etc. our perception of the time involved will likely be skewed simply from the effects of stress. Add to this other factors such as cognitive biases and distortions and it's not wonder that we get some quite varied retelling and remembrances  of events.


I just realized I've gone way off the original posters question. Sorry for continuing the derailment.

[Bluesky]

All excellent points; much of what goes on to end a duel is internal.

Great ideas all round

Kind Regards
Bluesky

[Jammo]

I'm also going to chime in with this little bit about the perception of speed thing that some have spoken of. Anticipation beats reaction. I had a fencer score a couple early hits on me one time, but I got a feel for his rhythm and got ahead of him as he started to move a couple times. He thought I had gotten faster physically, but my mush was the only thing that had sped up. I suppose my lesson was to press a bit more and not sit back and wait against a pretty fast opponent.