Vaapad

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

i found the thread on this, and when i tried to reply, i got this messege:

'Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.'

so i'm starting a new one.

mace windu's form. Vaapad.

named after a creature that moved and attacked with such speed and unpredictabilty that no-one could count its legs until it was dead.
largest one ever killed had 21.

now reading through the last thread, i noticed that people were not sure on the difference between Vaapad and Juyo.

in the novel 'shatterpoint' (great book, BTW) i noted that Master Windu stated that one of his weaknesses was 'that he liked to fight.'

it also states that to truly utilise Vaapad, you had to enjoy the battle. this, to me, is the difference in the forms.

in Juyo, you use your Anger, hatred and fear to strike at your opponent.
In Vaaped, you have to lose yourself to the enjoyment of battle.

the difference is that with juyo, you are already utilising dark emotions. in Vaapad, enjoying the battle is not nesserily a bad thing, but you must be careful to not let your anger and fear get in the way. enjoying the battle makes you very suceptible to these emotions - hence why you can turn to the dark side through continous use of Vaapad. mace himself seemed to have to use all his mental power (which is considerable) to stop himself, sometimes.

anyone wanna stick in your two cents? go for it.

[Darth Nonymous]

The enjoyment of battle is common to both.

Also, as we get ready to release our Juyo material, I will say that striking out with your fear anger and hatred will not make you stronger, it will make you weaker. Juyo is not merely becoming a rabid animal.

Artorious will have to chime in about where Vaapad may go.

[Master Nero Attoru]

The enjoyment of battle is common to both.

Also, as we get ready to release our Juyo material, I will say that striking out with your fear anger and hatred will not make you stronger, it will make you weaker. Juyo is not merely becoming a rabid animal.

Artorious will have to chime in about where Vaapad may go.

Indeed, there's a great deal of overlap between the two styles.  However, being as they came from different roots, the philosophy behind them is fundamentally different.  Mace Windu created Vaapad as his own personal style, while Juyo was a millenia-old Form which was commonly used by the Sith.  I'm greatly looking forward to TPLA releases of both Forms, by Masters Nonymous and Artorius...

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

The enjoyment of battle is common to both.

Also, as we get ready to release our Juyo material, I will say that striking out with your fear anger and hatred will not make you stronger, it will make you weaker. Juyo is not merely becoming a rabid animal.

Artorious will have to chime in about where Vaapad may go.

i kinda take it to mean that you lose yourself to instinct, mixed with joy of the fight. not the same as using your anger! when i duel, if i use my anger, i lose. everytime. when i let go of the worry of being hit or losing, and just enjoy the energy of the battle and give in to my instincts, i am 100% better.  but i do not lose control. that leads to mistakes.

[dhenwood]

mace said that to balance vaapaad correctly(in star wars essential guide to the force -get this book it rocks)  one had to learn to let the anger flow through them without ever touching his heart or mind. mace is one angry dude, so he vents that anger out in vaapaad, he simply gets rid of his rage - think of the nicest guy you know beating a heavy bag in the gym ferociously but controlled. the juyo method in contrast means that rather than use battle to get rid of the anger you let it grow with the battle and become ferocious and unmerciful. mace can direct his anger with vaapad, juyo is losing yourself to that emotion. think of the gym meathead uncontrollably lashing at the bag with haymakers and the like same effect, less controlled but still effective.

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

mace said that to balance vaapaad correctly(in star wars essential guide to the force -get this book it rocks)  one had to learn to let the anger flow through them without ever touching his heart or mind. mace is one angry dude, so he vents that anger out in vaapaad, he simply gets rid of his rage - think of the nicest guy you know beating a heavy bag in the gym ferociously but controlled. the juyo method in contrast means that rather than use battle to get rid of the anger you let it grow with the battle and become ferocious and unmerciful. mace can direct his anger with vaapad, juyo is losing yourself to that emotion. think of the gym meathead uncontrollably lashing at the bag with haymakers and the like same effect, less controlled but still effective.

mmmm, fair point. i, however, try not to use anger at all. everytime i do, my sparring partner always wins within about 10 seconds. i have no refinement and i end up making a mistake far too quickly.
i prefer to just stick with the enjoying it. i think its closer to Vaapad than anything else, and whats more, when i open myself up to the joy of the fight, i tend to win more. im not saying that i lack form or technuiqe, just that im a little free-er with it, which makes it very unpredictable.

[Master VorNach]

I think there is a distinction that is getting lost in some of the conversation.
There is fighting angry and there is being angry while fighting.

Fighting angry leads to a loss of control and, against someone with even a modicum of skill, probably means losing the fight as well.

One can be angry while fighting without letting the emotion get out of hand but instead channel the results. The analogy we often use is of the actor with stage fright who uses the "energy" of that anxiety to add emotion and depth to their performance.

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

I think there is a distinction that is getting lost in some of the conversation.
There is fighting angry and there is being angry while fighting.

Fighting angry leads to a loss of control and, against someone with even a modicum of skill, probably means losing the fight as well.

One can be angry while fighting without letting the emotion get out of hand but instead channel the results. The analogy we often use is of the actor with stage fright who uses the "energy" of that anxiety to add emotion and depth to their performance.

anger in combat is anger in combat, is it not? to me, there is only angry.

[Master VorNach]

anger in combat is anger in combat, is it not? to me, there is only angry.

Anger is a normal emotional state that we all experience.

You can experience anger and react to it without thought: Fighting angry.
You can experience anger and, to varying degrees, control how respond while experiencing it: Fighting while angry.

So yes, you are angry in both instances but the outcome is very different. This is the distinction I commented on, with the hope of clarifying that some people were talking about reacting without any attempt at control while others are acknowledging the emotion but controlling how they acted during that experience.

Here's a good article:
http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx?item=1

[Darth Nonymous]

Perhaps a clearer distinction:

You have two aspects to emotional response, the physical and physiological effects and the subjective and psychological experience of that emotion. So with anger you have the increased blood pressure, fast pulse, sweating, hyper focus and nervous shaking. You then have the way that you make sense of those symptoms (i.e. "i am angry"). Anger has a psychological effect on you. You cannot access all of your information, only that which pertians to the situation. Any one can tell you that fear does that too. The thing about it is is those are the same symptoms and metrics for fear, excitement, anticipation, joy, and almost any other high energy emotion. Those emotions are not often accompanied by the negative psychological effects.

So I agree with you, "Never fight while angry...you will fight very bravely and die very quickly". But What VorNach is talking about is merely re-interpreting the physiological effects as something different. In our case joy and excitement of fighting. So it's using the "anger" but not letting it present as anger per se. You subjective experience does not make you think anger.

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

Perhaps a clearer distinction:

You have two aspects to emotional response, the physical and physiological effects and the subjective and psychological experience of that emotion. So with anger you have the increased blood pressure, fast pulse, sweating, hyper focus and nervous shaking. You then have the way that you make sense of those symptoms (i.e. "i am angry"). Anger has a psychological effect on you. You cannot access all of your information, only that which pertians to the situation. Any one can tell you that fear does that too. The thing about it is is those are the same symptoms and metrics for fear, excitement, anticipation, joy, and almost any other high energy emotion. Those emotions are not often accompanied by the negative psychological effects.

So I agree with you, "Never fight while angry...you will fight very bravely and die very quickly". But What VorNach is talking about is merely re-interpreting the physiological effects as something different. In our case joy and excitement of fighting. So it's using the "anger" but not letting it present as anger per se. You subjective experience does not make you think anger.

so me utilisng the joy of the battle, is, in short, me fighting angry? that makes complete senseel
see? this is why you and Vornach are Masters, and i am but a humble Knight.

how much of your Juyo can be interpreted to be used as Vaapad? or is it purely down to how i use it?
i ask as there is no instructional on Vaapad yet.

and thank you for your input - can we turn this thread into an instructional now?

[Darth Nonymous]

so me utilisng the joy of the battle, is, in short, me fighting angry? that makes complete senseel
see? this is why you and Vornach are Masters, and i am but a humble Knight.

Well, more like fighting while angry. But the emotion changes, you are no longer angry when you have successfully used this principle.

how much of your Juyo can be interpreted to be used as Vaapad? or is it purely down to how i use it?
i ask as there is no instructional on Vaapad yet.

I have no idea. Juyo is where I am putting my energies.

and thank you for your input - can we turn this thread into an instructional now?

How?

You are welcome.

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

 
How do we make this thread into an instuctional one?

i suppose i could always take a vid and pop it up here of the way i personally utilise it, but i would have to be in a battle to do it - you cant really enjoy the thrill of a drill compared to the thrill of a battle!

anyone else care to chime in? some videos of your idea of Vaapad? Maybe someone could convince master Artorius to pop one up.

[Master Nero Attoru]

i suppose i could always take a vid and pop it up here of the way i personally utilise it, but i would have to be in a battle to do it - you cant really enjoy the thrill of a drill compared to the thrill of a battle!

anyone else care to chime in? some videos of your idea of Vaapad? Maybe someone could convince master Artorius to pop one up.

I will chat with him about it, see if he has anything ready for release yet

[Faa-Yal Dragu]

I will chat with him about it, see if he has anything ready for release yet

thank you, master Nero.