Sith or Jedi story

[Master Rel]

Good videos.

It is interesting to see how the Jedi and sith have evolved or degenerated depending on your view point with the addition of the EU and video game storylines to the whole of the Star Wars universe.

Ask someone about vampires and until recently you would hear stories of horrid blood suckers who slaughter men, women, and children in their endless pursuit of the life essence of human beings...because they were undead creatures and no longer human.  They shunned the light, garlic, and crosses because these were considered pure or purifying.

But with the recent turn of media additions we see 500yr old vampires cruising the high schools for unrequited love in the form of underage girls, vampires that are beautiful and perfect is every way.  Vampires that sparkle in glittery wonder and shimmer with their sensuality and grace.

A whole generation is growing up thinking vampires are the ultimate perfect boyfriend/girlfriend.

What...what just happened?

Tell anyone who had never heard of Twilight's version of vampires, about the Twilight vampires and they would scratch their heads...they sound more like a weird version of fallen angels than vampires.

And then the debates begin...which version of vampires is right or best?

Such is the Jedi and sith issue.

The EU and the video games have taken an established baseline then added sparkle and glitter.

That is a gross and wide sweeping example but it is also true.

Now the same broken flood doors allowed for some interesting stories and they explored the potential of the range of many colors rather than black and white of sith and Jedi.

I freely accept that there would be highs and lows within the potential of humanity and the same could and would reflect on the Jedi and sith, but when the moment came that sith became the heroes of the story...the shark was jumped.

All I am saying is that just like the vampires, the public view of sith and Jedi have quietly changed dramatically.  The video games primarily are to blame for the drive, as noted before by others, to create a more equal choice for gaming characters.  But the EU books also take some of the load.

This is the way it is, not opinion.

Does this mean that it is a bad thing?  That is the question.

Do you want your bloodthirsty monsters to become sparkly sexy superheroes?

I like my vampires as bloodsuckers, undead monsters who are on the fringe of society at best.

I like my sith as villains, striving to gain personal power at any cost.

This thought is not meant to create more of a rift between our camps but rather to relate to why there is a rift.

I was thinking about it earlier and the Twilight example hit me.  I mean seriously if you talk to someone who only watched the Star Wars movies they would scratch their heads if you said the sith were just misunderstood good guys and the Jedi were the overbearing, self righteous, and freedom stealing bad guys.

What happened?

Next thing we will be debating if the Fellowship of the Ring were really evil and poor Sauron, Saruman, and the Orcs were the heroes of the story.

It is an interesting development.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Good videos.

It is interesting to see how the Jedi and sith have evolved or degenerated depending on your view point with the addition of the EU and video game storylines to the whole of the Star Wars universe.

Ask someone about vampires and until recently you would hear stories of horrid blood suckers who slaughter men, women, and children in their endless pursuit of the life essence of human beings...because they were undead creatures and no longer human.  They shunned the light, garlic, and crosses because these were considered pure or purifying.

But with the recent turn of media additions we see 500yr old vampires cruising the high schools for unrequited love in the form of underage girls, vampires that are beautiful and perfect is every way.  Vampires that sparkle in glittery wonder and shimmer with their sensuality and grace.

A whole generation is growing up thinking vampires are the ultimate perfect boyfriend/girlfriend.

What...what just happened?

Tell anyone who had never heard of Twilight's version of vampires, about the Twilight vampires and they would scratch their heads...they sound more like a weird version of fallen angels than vampires.

And then the debates begin...which version of vampires is right or best?

Such is the Jedi and sith issue.

The EU and the video games have taken an established baseline then added sparkle and glitter.

That is a gross and wide sweeping example but it is also true.

Now the same broken flood doors allowed for some interesting stories and they explored the potential of the range of many colors rather than black and white of sith and Jedi.

I freely accept that there would be highs and lows within the potential of humanity and the same could and would reflect on the Jedi and sith, but when the moment came that sith became the heroes of the story...the shark was jumped.

All I am saying is that just like the vampires, the public view of sith and Jedi have quietly changed dramatically.  The video games primarily are to blame for the drive, as noted before by others, to create a more equal choice for gaming characters.  But the EU books also take some of the load.

This is the way it is, not opinion.

Does this mean that it is a bad thing?  That is the question.

Do you want your bloodthirsty monsters to become sparkly sexy superheroes?

I like my vampires as bloodsuckers, undead monsters who are on the fringe of society at best.

I like my sith as villains, striving to gain personal power at any cost.

This thought is not meant to create more of a rift between our camps but rather to relate to why there is a rift.

I was thinking about it earlier and the Twilight example hit me.  I mean seriously if you talk to someone who only watched the Star Wars movies they would scratch their heads if you said the sith were just misunderstood good guys and the Jedi were the overbearing, self righteous, and freedom stealing bad guys.

What happened?

Next thing we will be debating if the Fellowship of the Ring were really evil and poor Sauron, Saruman, and the Orcs were the heroes of the story.

It is an interesting development.

You do have an excellent point here.

I personally think the Sith can be the focus of the story, without being the goodies though. I also think it's possible for the Jedi to be the bad guys. The cold snatching element reminds of Babylon 5's psy-corps.

[BenPass]

Rel, your write-up reminds me of an episode of HIMYM.... Barney talks about how he always roots for the "title character" and laments how sad it was when the Terminator didn't get to kill the people.

Yeah...we live in a day when  people "call good, evil and evil, good." Again, though there are differences in eras, individuals, and sources, the Ideals of each of the two groups are good and evil; Jedi good and Sith evil. I think, for everyone, that we have to remember that these are the IDEALS. I'm not saying that there haven't been "misunderstood Sith", though I  don't see how murder on a huge scale can be misunderstood...and I'm not saying that there haven't been Jedi that made awful choices.

All I am saying is that the ideal Jedi seeks to serve, and the ideal Sith seeks to be served.

[Kitra]

I dont see the twilight case. At least not in a scale where it could be translated to Star Wars as a n example of changing roles.

Vampires to me are indeed driven by an inner beast which cannot be controlled until fed, feasting on anyone near when hungry and the problem is that its always hungry.
Doomed to the existence by night shunning the sun they proceed with their plans to swing vampires as a race to the top of the food chain destroying towns then citys then continents in the process with the human race as its mindless slaves.

Twilight "vamps" are elves on blood in my opinion.

*back to Star Wars* *switch!*

Star Wars is consistend through all 6 movies as well as all other media from books to games to tv-series in the acknowledgement of the roles.
Sith oppose a danger by attacking something or pulling the right strings to further an even more evil end due to masterminding and the Jedi protect the "victims" targeted.
Well normaly themselves.

Jedi are never the aggressor to the innocents no case.
No Jedi is "scary"... Sidious with his molten face. Darth Vader unemotional killer with a military walk and the breathing all in black, not to mention that all Sith which are further developed on the path have red yellow eyes. Come on thats scary! ^^  I would let any jedi hold a baby but none of the Sith.
That is a big thing for me.

Pretend you are a father/mother. would you like a Sith to get a hold of your flesh and blood?
I would defend mine till the end I can say.

[Kitra]

That was very well written Kitra, point for you!
On a side note, I found some videos that were pretty cool dealing with the codes.

And an alternative Jedi Code video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLubOuhVuM#ws

Thank you a lot kind sir.

[Aurentis]

Rel has an excellent point.  By and large, modern society is absolutely in love with the "anti-hero;" the guy who's the loose cannon on the force, the guy who's an insubordinate jerk but is great at what he does, the guy who breaks all the rules but is celebrated in the end.

We love characters that were cultivated through darkness but serve the light, that serve good ends by using questionable or downright evil methods.  But it's all okay, because the end result is that everyone is better off, right?

That ideology rarely works for me.  I'm not saying good guys always need to be paragons of justice or anything like that, because it's simply not true and it would be horribly boring if they were.  What doesn't work for me is the whole "counter-character" obsession we have.  For example, I actually get really tired of hearing the phrase "Dark Jedi" or even "Grey Jedi."  These are characters that, by their nature, defy the tenets of the Jedi because they don't agree with them.  It's fine if you don't want to agree with them, but if you don't follow the lifestyle, you can't really call yourself X or Y.  In the case of Dark Jedi, these characters literally believe they do not need the code and that it is in their way, and will utilize whatever the heck they need to "get the job done."

Newsflash: that's a remarkably Sith mentality.

The reality is that counter-characters don't work.  If you were a police officer, and you did any of the things these "loose cannon" types do in entertainment, you would be thrown off the force before you could blink.  The same is true of a Jedi who violates his oaths, and the same is true of the Sith.  Counter-characters are a romantic notion that we adhere to because we all love the idea of being the "special case," who continually tests the patience and limits of their superiors but keeps their position (or even advances) because the end results are good.

Do we need counter-characters?  Sure.  But the thing is, when everyone adores the counter-character and that's the only character anyone makes, they aren't "counter-characters" anymore.  They're cliché.

[Nhylus]

Rel has an excellent point.  By and large, modern society is absolutely in love with the "anti-hero;" the guy who's the loose cannon on the force, the guy who's an insubordinate jerk but is great at what he does, the guy who breaks all the rules but is celebrated in the end.

We love characters that were cultivated through darkness but serve the light, that serve good ends by using questionable or downright evil methods.  But it's all okay, because the end result is that everyone is better off, right?

That ideology rarely works for me.  I'm not saying good guys always need to be paragons of justice or anything like that, because it's simply not true and it would be horribly boring if they were.  What doesn't work for me is the whole "counter-character" obsession we have.  For example, I actually get really tired of hearing the phrase "Dark Jedi" or even "Grey Jedi."  These are characters that, by their nature, defy the tenets of the Jedi because they don't agree with them.  It's fine if you don't want to agree with them, but if you don't follow the lifestyle, you can't really call yourself X or Y.  In the case of Dark Jedi, these characters literally believe they do not need the code and that it is in their way, and will utilize whatever the heck they need to "get the job done."

Newsflash: that's a remarkably Sith mentality.

The reality is that counter-characters don't work.  If you were a police officer, and you did any of the things these "loose cannon" types do in entertainment, you would be thrown off the force before you could blink.  The same is true of a Jedi who violates his oaths, and the same is true of the Sith.  Counter-characters are a romantic notion that we adhere to because we all love the idea of being the "special case," who continually tests the patience and limits of their superiors but keeps their position (or even advances) because the end results are good.

Do we need counter-characters?  Sure.  But the thing is, when everyone adores the counter-character and that's the only character anyone makes, they aren't "counter-characters" anymore.  They're cliché.

These are excellent points! The only thing I would add is that Dark Jedi were the precursors to the Sith. They were the exiles who brought their teachings to the actual Sith race. But I agree, everyone wants to be the anti-hero. The misunderstood.

[Inquisitor Mana]

Rel has an excellent point.  By and large, modern society is absolutely in love with the "anti-hero;" the guy who's the loose cannon on the force, the guy who's an insubordinate jerk but is great at what he does, the guy who breaks all the rules but is celebrated in the end.

We love characters that were cultivated through darkness but serve the light, that serve good ends by using questionable or downright evil methods.  But it's all okay, because the end result is that everyone is better off, right?

That ideology rarely works for me.  I'm not saying good guys always need to be paragons of justice or anything like that, because it's simply not true and it would be horribly boring if they were.  What doesn't work for me is the whole "counter-character" obsession we have.  For example, I actually get really tired of hearing the phrase "Dark Jedi" or even "Grey Jedi."  These are characters that, by their nature, defy the tenets of the Jedi because they don't agree with them.  It's fine if you don't want to agree with them, but if you don't follow the lifestyle, you can't really call yourself X or Y.  In the case of Dark Jedi, these characters literally believe they do not need the code and that it is in their way, and will utilize whatever the heck they need to "get the job done."

Newsflash: that's a remarkably Sith mentality.

The reality is that counter-characters don't work.  If you were a police officer, and you did any of the things these "loose cannon" types do in entertainment, you would be thrown off the force before you could blink.  The same is true of a Jedi who violates his oaths, and the same is true of the Sith.  Counter-characters are a romantic notion that we adhere to because we all love the idea of being the "special case," who continually tests the patience and limits of their superiors but keeps their position (or even advances) because the end results are good.

Do we need counter-characters?  Sure.  But the thing is, when everyone adores the counter-character and that's the only character anyone makes, they aren't "counter-characters" anymore.  They're cliché.

These are excellent points! The only thing I would add is that Dark Jedi were the precursors to the Sith. They were the exiles who brought their teachings to the actual Sith race. But I agree, everyone wants to be the anti-hero. The misunderstood.

Perhaps the answer for our forum needs and wants at least is a different name for these Force users who do not fit the mold of either sith or Jedi?

How about something that is specific to our forum?

Just let go of the Jedi and sith names completely.

Maybe something like...

Guildsman or Guardsman?

A loose confederation of Force users banded together by their desire to be more independent and to follow the Force without the confines of a restrictive Jedi Order Council or corruptive sith Order.  Many chapters within the Guild or Guard, some with agendas and some without.

Perhaps?

[Master Rel]

Sounds like fun.

Guild of Shadows

Force Guardsmen of "insert"

Hmmm

Point

[Inquisitor Mana]

Ultra Guard and the Guild of the Saber  lol.

[Nhylus]

Im perfectly okay with associating myself as a Jedi. But neat idea anyway!

[Master Rel]

Im perfectly okay with associating myself as a Jedi. But neat idea anyway!

I am also on board with the Jedi as is...though volunteer recruiting of children and relationships would be welcome 

The idea is a good one for the majority of the fence sitters I suspect.

[Nhylus]

I am also on board with the Jedi as is...though volunteer recruiting of children and relationships would be welcome 

The idea is a good one for the majority of the fence sitters I suspect.

Children aren't generally taken by force (no pun intended) by the Jedi. The Jedi show interest in the infant and usually convince the parents that they will live a better life as a Jedi. It strengthens their numbers and provides, in some instances, a better home for the child. Say a baby was born on Nar Shaddaa to a poor family and a Jedi approached them, it would not be hard to convince the parents to let the baby go so it may live a better quality of life. And during some times of war, when the Jedi need to increase their numbers desperately, Jedi are allowed to have children. But no contact and they cannot raise them themselves. Of course in the NJO, marriage is perfectly fine.

[Darth Severus]

Good videos.

It is interesting to see how the Jedi and sith have evolved or degenerated depending on your view point with the addition of the EU and video game storylines to the whole of the Star Wars universe.

Ask someone about vampires and until recently you would hear stories of horrid blood suckers who slaughter men, women, and children in their endless pursuit of the life essence of human beings...because they were undead creatures and no longer human.  They shunned the light, garlic, and crosses because these were considered pure or purifying.

But with the recent turn of media additions we see 500yr old vampires cruising the high schools for unrequited love in the form of underage girls, vampires that are beautiful and perfect is every way.  Vampires that sparkle in glittery wonder and shimmer with their sensuality and grace.

A whole generation is growing up thinking vampires are the ultimate perfect boyfriend/girlfriend.

What...what just happened?

Tell anyone who had never heard of Twilight's version of vampires, about the Twilight vampires and they would scratch their heads...they sound more like a weird version of fallen angels than vampires.

And then the debates begin...which version of vampires is right or best?

Such is the Jedi and sith issue.

The EU and the video games have taken an established baseline then added sparkle and glitter.

That is a gross and wide sweeping example but it is also true.

Now the same broken flood doors allowed for some interesting stories and they explored the potential of the range of many colors rather than black and white of sith and Jedi.

I freely accept that there would be highs and lows within the potential of humanity and the same could and would reflect on the Jedi and sith, but when the moment came that sith became the heroes of the story...the shark was jumped.

All I am saying is that just like the vampires, the public view of sith and Jedi have quietly changed dramatically.  The video games primarily are to blame for the drive, as noted before by others, to create a more equal choice for gaming characters.  But the EU books also take some of the load.

This is the way it is, not opinion.

Does this mean that it is a bad thing?  That is the question.

Do you want your bloodthirsty monsters to become sparkly sexy superheroes?

I like my vampires as bloodsuckers, undead monsters who are on the fringe of society at best.

I like my sith as villains, striving to gain personal power at any cost.

This thought is not meant to create more of a rift between our camps but rather to relate to why there is a rift.

I was thinking about it earlier and the Twilight example hit me.  I mean seriously if you talk to someone who only watched the Star Wars movies they would scratch their heads if you said the sith were just misunderstood good guys and the Jedi were the overbearing, self righteous, and freedom stealing bad guys.

What happened?

Next thing we will be debating if the Fellowship of the Ring were really evil and poor Sauron, Saruman, and the Orcs were the heroes of the story.

It is an interesting development.

A lot of good points, even though comparing what Twilight has done to vampires or rational story telling for that matter to anything is like comparing the hydrogen bomb to a hammer. They both can cause distruction, but aren't exactley in the same class. (I can not explain how much I dislike those books/movies)

I think an important thing to remember is the different times these stories were crafted. The OT was set in cold war times and we were given cold war values from the American prospective. Plucky characters lifting themselves up by the bootstraps and taking on the Evil Empire. Democracy prevailing over the harsh rule of an evil dictator. One side showing off their military might in pressed matching uniforms the other fighting with what ever they had. The fact that it also echos to some effect the themes of the American revolution can not be ignored. If your an American the good vs bad was set in stone it reflected what we were seeing in the war against the communist and echoed through out our history.

Jump forward twenty years to the begining of the PT and the cold war is over, we had been to war with the country we original supported in the Iran/Iraq conflict. We had suffered several smaller scale terrorist attacks, some by our own citizens. There was no great evil empire, the evil was all around us, sometimes within our borders. Some of the actions our government an military took began to be questioned, because with out a singular massive threat tough decisions are examined more closely. And this was all before 9/11.

Now in a post 9/11 world, a world where a small group can strike as much fear if not more then an invading army lines of good and bad get blurred. You add in a 24 hour news industry that profits of turmiol, grief, fear and conflict and you get a world of hard to define values. That fact that these values leach into fiction and fantasy is almost unavoidable. Good and bad in Star Wars has changed because the world has changed or at least our view of it has.

Edit:
On a side note, I have seen the words fact and opinion used incorrectly by multiple people throughout this discussion. If you are making a judgement, or using judgment words, like good, evil, cruel, just, that's an opinion, no matter how right you think you are, or how obvious you believe the statement to be.

[Kitra]

Hmm I guess a very pushing factor for the Sith acceptance is that nealry all Sith girls have a high sex appeal. ^^
When I think of advertising than i know that everything shiny and of course sexy are among the best selling points for anything storys included.

I cant blame anyone on the dark side...