Shii-Cho freestyling

[Darth_Arkanus]

Hi everyone!

Just a quick vid showing off some off-the-cuff sabering in the Shii-Cho style (mostly, I think) with nothing worked out ahead of time. There's some forwards and backwards movements too.

Just tracking my progress really.

Any comments/observations most welcome.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MjJ70EYQmA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MjJ70EYQmA</a>

[GrumpyBadger]

what I can see of your saber work looks promising, however all I can see is the "hovering saber."  I can't see your hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders.  I can't see how your torso reacts to the movements you place in your arms.  Most importantly I can't follow your hips and footwork as that should be the foundation that everything else is built upon.

What would be great, is if you have someone recording these for you, I know you ordered your Dad an ultrasaber as well, so maybe he can assist.  Basically, do work in the dark, especially if it helps you because you can follow and see the blade.  however, half-way through, have someone turn the lights on so then you and we can see the rest of everything going on.

There are certain pitfalls I know of when it comes to someone training in a two-handed style, especially if they are on their own and don't have someone there to spot it right off the bat.  All of these are just minor errors in technique that can turn into serious bad habits, and at worst can cause even serious injuries. 

In my WMA contact sport, we use shinai at full speed.  We also use glaives, warhammers, double bit battle axes, and some of us, myself included, use 32" long bladed single hand crusader swords with a kit shield.  If one does these bad techniques in an environment like that, seriously bad things can happen. 

One of which I know of is "over-extending and locking" the wrists.  Basically gripping the hilt too tightly in your bottom/support hand.  If one throws a shot too deep and their opponent recognizes it, it's an instant disarm at the very least.  At the worst, it can be even a sprained or broken wrist because the practitioner is basically putting their arms into gooseneck.  Luckily there isn't a whole lot of weight behind the blade of a lightsaber, and it isn't in a succinct section, like the 2mm flats on our blades.  But still, it'll zing ya if it happens.  A lot of my friends started doing it and I had to call them out on it.  When they didn't understand, I made a video about it and also showed them in practical sense how the counter and disarm works.

here's the video if you wish to check it out:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1a8Pf38To" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1a8Pf38To</a>

and yes, I'm being an uber nerd wearing a UNSC shirt while discussing lightsaber techniques
there are multiple ways to avoid this hazard too, I only pointed out a few.  My hilt is fairly short, 9.5 inches of grip length on that hilt.  So it's more a hand-and-a-half.  If it was more like a katana or warsword or claymore, the spacing between the hands would prevent this from happening.

Another problem is "baseball batting" where both hands are close together and the practitioner looks like they're swinging for the fences.  It's why I like to teach things slowly, and I'm really happy to see everyone else here using that theory and technique as well. 

Now, I haven't seen that in your videos yet, or else I would point it out, but there is a possibility that or other things like it could be happening when you are in the dark and we can't see. 

[Darth_Arkanus]

what I can see of your saber work looks promising, however all I can see is the "hovering saber."  I can't see your hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders.  I can't see how your torso reacts to the movements you place in your arms.  Most importantly I can't follow your hips and footwork as that should be the foundation that everything else is built upon.

What would be great, is if you have someone recording these for you, I know you ordered your Dad an ultrasaber as well, so maybe he can assist.  Basically, do work in the dark, especially if it helps you because you can follow and see the blade.  however, half-way through, have someone turn the lights on so then you and we can see the rest of everything going on.

There are certain pitfalls I know of when it comes to someone training in a two-handed style, especially if they are on their own and don't have someone there to spot it right off the bat.  All of these are just minor errors in technique that can turn into serious bad habits, and at worst can cause even serious injuries. 

In my WMA contact sport, we use shinai at full speed.  We also use glaives, warhammers, double bit battle axes, and some of us, myself included, use 32" long bladed single hand crusader swords with a kit shield.  If one does these bad techniques in an environment like that, seriously bad things can happen. 

One of which I know of is "over-extending and locking" the wrists.  Basically gripping the hilt too tightly in your bottom/support hand.  If one throws a shot too deep and their opponent recognizes it, it's an instant disarm at the very least.  At the worst, it can be even a sprained or broken wrist because the practitioner is basically putting their arms into gooseneck.  Luckily there isn't a whole lot of weight behind the blade of a lightsaber, and it isn't in a succinct section, like the 2mm flats on our blades.  But still, it'll zing ya if it happens.  A lot of my friends started doing it and I had to call them out on it.  When they didn't understand, I made a video about it and also showed them in practical sense how the counter and disarm works.

here's the video if you wish to check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1a8Pf38To
and yes, I'm being an uber nerd wearing a UNSC shirt while discussing lightsaber techniques
there are multiple ways to avoid this hazard too, I only pointed out a few.  My hilt is fairly short, 9.5 inches of grip length on that hilt.  So it's more a hand-and-a-half.  If it was more like a katana or warsword or claymore, the spacing between the hands would prevent this from happening.

Another problem is "baseball batting" where both hands are close together and the practitioner looks like they're swinging for the fences.  It's why I like to teach things slowly, and I'm really happy to see everyone else here using that theory and technique as well. 

Now, I haven't seen that in your videos yet, or else I would point it out, but there is a possibility that or other things like it could be happening when you are in the dark and we can't see. 

Thanks! I'll do a quick video now (it's dust here, so I should be pretty visible) and edit it and get it up, then add it to this thread. *gulp* I only really record at night cos' it's quieter, and I like the "glowing stick" effect. hehe I know for actual critique it's not that much use. (Master Nonymous has pointed this out to me before, many times lol)

[Darth Nonymous]

There are certain pitfalls I know of when it comes to someone training in a two-handed style, especially if they are on their own and don't have someone there to spot it right off the bat.  All of these are just minor errors in technique that can turn into serious bad habits, and at worst can cause even serious injuries. 

In my WMA contact sport, we use shinai at full speed.  We also use glaives, warhammers, double bit battle axes, and some of us, myself included, use 32" long bladed single hand crusader swords with a kit shield.  If one does these bad techniques in an environment like that, seriously bad things can happen. 

One of which I know of is "over-extending and locking" the wrists.  Basically gripping the hilt too tightly in your bottom/support hand.  If one throws a shot too deep and their opponent recognizes it, it's an instant disarm at the very least.  At the worst, it can be even a sprained or broken wrist because the practitioner is basically putting their arms into gooseneck.  Luckily there isn't a whole lot of weight behind the blade of a lightsaber, and it isn't in a succinct section, like the 2mm flats on our blades.  But still, it'll zing ya if it happens.  A lot of my friends started doing it and I had to call them out on it.  When they didn't understand, I made a video about it and also showed them in practical sense how the counter and disarm works.

here's the video if you wish to check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1a8Pf38To
and yes, I'm being an uber nerd wearing a UNSC shirt while discussing lightsaber techniques
there are multiple ways to avoid this hazard too, I only pointed out a few.  My hilt is fairly short, 9.5 inches of grip length on that hilt.  So it's more a hand-and-a-half.  If it was more like a katana or warsword or claymore, the spacing between the hands would prevent this from happening.

I can't say I agree with this. I find the position you describe as "locked" extremely mobile and use it frequently. There is much ore torque and range of motion produced by it. Whereas the "correct" technique you describe in the video is actually limiting your range of motion by a huge degree.

One of the common guards used in many types of sword school (Eastern and Western) is a "crossed" guard. Here are Myers':



This position sets up great potential fast and powerful ripostes.

[Darth_Arkanus]

OK, I know it's late, but here's the video I promised. These were not pre-worked out, they were improvised while stood in front of the camera and I attempted to throw pretty much every trick I know and really "go for it".

I hope it's all right.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTPI3yDU90" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTPI3yDU90</a>

[GrumpyBadger]

I can't say I agree with this. I find the position you describe as "locked" extremely mobile and use it frequently. There is much ore torque and range of motion produced by it. Whereas the "correct" technique you describe in the video is actually limiting your range of motion by a huge degree.

One of the common guards used in many types of sword school (Eastern and Western) is a "crossed" guard. Here are Myers':



This position sets up great potential fast and powerful ripostes.

And believe it or not, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Given the hilts that are described in those texts.  For example, when I use a claymore, I often cross my wrists, however, then never lock because I have about 4 inches or more between them, which combined with a loose grip on the hilt like in your second illumination, allows that very shot.  

However, on the shorter hilts like hand-and-a-halves, I've personally seen the injuries I describe.  And lets face it, US Prophecy, which is based heavily on the first lightsaber hilt we all know and love, is a hand and a half and doesn't have that space.  This is also why for me personally, I LOVE a full 14" grip space, then pommel and hilt when it comes to heavier styles and dueling like Form V and IV.

In my video, I'm describing that specific spacing of hands, and I was just showing my friends other alternatives for a shorter hilt since they're all still death gripping the hilt like amateurs instead of having a loose grip.

Sorry for the confusion.  I should have worded that better.  Of course, I'm also now awake for over 40 hours, so that may have something to do with it as well

I'll make a video as soon as I'm able again... having issues with my phone at the moment it took a whole day to post that simple one
Basically, I just did some simple cuts with one of my cheapo claymores, not my good one.  It's almost impossible for me to get my wrists to do what I'm afraid of, and I'm sure once I show it on the claymore hilt, and then transfer it to the lightsaber, it'll help.  I think really it boils down to proper sword handling technique and application, rather than just baseball gripping it literally backwards and white knuckling it.

Again, thank you for the counter, it helps clarify where I need to better describe and show what I'm seeing to my friends and hopefully it'll help shed light on it as well for all of us

also, in my video at 0:16 I'm trying to show what I'm seeing wrong.  I noticed looking at it, I'm not white-knuckling it like I should be to properly show what I'm seeing my friends do, and what causes the "lock" and basically gooseneck that can transfer to the arm-bar if applied well.  Yeah, again, that's my mistake.

Hopefully tomorrow, I'll be able to get even some video footage of me and my Knight Instructor showing it from a distance, that'll help too.  Trust me, what I'm seeing isn't normal, and not what you and I are talking about is okay.  What I'm seeing puts the shoulders and back all in a twist as well.

[Master Lucien Kane]

OK, I know it's late, but here's the video I promised. These were not pre-worked out, they were improvised while stood in front of the camera and I attempted to throw pretty much every trick I know and really "go for it".

I hope it's all right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTPI3yDU90#ws

First off, dude you're looking good! Looks like you're getting in better shape.

Your techniques are looking more fluid and crisp. I like it, keep up the good work.

And believe it or not, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Given the hilts that are described in those texts.  For example, when I use a claymore, I often cross my wrists, however, then never lock because I have about 4 inches or more between them, which combined with a loose grip on the hilt like in your second illumination, allows that very shot. 

However, on the shorter hilts like hand-and-a-halves, I've personally seen the injuries I describe.  And lets face it, US Prophecy, which is based heavily on the first lightsaber hilt we all know and love, is a hand and a half and doesn't have that space.  This is also why for me personally, I LOVE a full 14" grip space, then pommel and hilt when it comes to heavier styles and dueling like Form V and IV.

In my video, I'm describing that specific spacing of hands, and I was just showing my friends other alternatives for a shorter hilt since they're all still death gripping the hilt like amateurs instead of having a loose grip.

Sorry for the confusion.  I should have worded that better.  Of course, I'm also now awake for over 40 hours, so that may have something to do with it as well

I'll make a video as soon as I'm able again... having issues with my phone at the moment it took a whole day to post that simple one
Basically, I just did some simple cuts with one of my cheapo claymores, not my good one.  It's almost impossible for me to get my wrists to do what I'm afraid of, and I'm sure once I show it on the claymore hilt, and then transfer it to the lightsaber, it'll help.  I think really it boils down to proper sword handling technique and application, rather than just baseball gripping it literally backwards and white knuckling it.

Again, thank you for the counter, it helps clarify where I need to better describe and show what I'm seeing to my friends and hopefully it'll help shed light on it as well for all of us

also, in my video at 0:16 I'm trying to show what I'm seeing wrong.  I noticed looking at it, I'm not white-knuckling it like I should be to properly show what I'm seeing my friends do, and what causes the "lock" and basically gooseneck that can transfer to the arm-bar if applied well.  Yeah, again, that's my mistake.

Hopefully tomorrow, I'll be able to get even some video footage of me and my Knight Instructor showing it from a distance, that'll help too.  Trust me, what I'm seeing isn't normal, and not what you and I are talking about is okay.  What I'm seeing puts the shoulders and back all in a twist as well.

I disagree, I primarily use hilts that are hand and a half. I can do the techniques described with a prophecy no problem, if you're hurting your wrists from crossing them, that is the equivalent of hyperextending your elbow with a punch the flaw does not lie in the weapon but in its wielder.

I do not mean this as an insult, I've definitely hyperextended my elbow, and made mistakes while practicing with weapons. My point is these techniques do work with most standard size hilts which are anywhere from 10 to 12" in length.

[Darth_Arkanus]

First off, dude you're looking good! Looks like you're getting in better shape.

Your techniques are looking more fluid and crisp. I like it, keep up the good work.

Thanks Master, I am definitely FEELING better in Shii-Cho, and am wondering how I can progress that form forward now. Are their any other strikes or parries that I can learn, or different footwork to kind of like a "level 2" to work on? I noticed Master Nonymous "Advanced Dulon" which is described, I believe, as a self-created flow of techniques that are not worked out ahead of time? But from what I saw, they follow the same idea as Dulon, i.e. they are a formal "style" of performance, rather than the informal "shadow boxing" that I did here.

Any suggestions or advice would be most welcome.

On the hilt thing, my Dominix LE is 12.5 inches and does the whole double hand thing really comfortably. I'm not sure whether I'm crossing wrists here at all, but I do not think so, because it doesn't actually feel necessary (it's not a conscious decision one way or the other) Correct me if I'm wrong though but don't some positions REQUIRE crossed wrists? Examples would be a zone 1 (z.2 side) high block, zone 2 side Krayt's eye, zone 6 trailing guard, the Horizontal Jedi guard (see below), Shiim strikes to your opponent's z.1.2 side (right side of their head), upward Sai and Cho strikes z.5-3, and the two handed version of a Makashi Full Moon guard. (just off the top of my head)

Here's the guard stance I mentioned.



Surely there are times when you HAVE to cross wrists?

[Master Lucien Kane]

Thanks Master, I am definitely FEELING better in Shii-Cho, and am wondering how I can progress that form forward now. Are their any other strikes or parries that I can learn, or different footwork to kind of like a "level 2" to work on? I noticed Master Nonymous "Advanced Dulon" which is described, I believe, as a self-created flow of techniques that are not worked out ahead of time? But from what I saw, they follow the same idea as Dulon, i.e. they are a formal "style" of performance, rather than the informal "shadow boxing" that I did here.

Any suggestions or advice would be most welcome.

On the hilt thing, my Dominix LE is 12.5 inches and does the whole double hand thing really comfortably. I'm not sure whether I'm crossing wrists here at all, but I do not think so, because it doesn't actually feel necessary (it's not a conscious decision one way or the other) Correct me if I'm wrong though but don't some positions REQUIRE crossed wrists? Examples would be a zone 1 (z.2 side) high block, zone 2 side Krayt's eye, zone 6 trailing guard, the Horizontal Jedi guard (see below), Shiim strikes to your opponent's z.1.2 side (right side of their head), upward Sai and Cho strikes z.5-3, and the two handed version of a Makashi Full Moon guard. (just off the top of my head)

Here's the guard stance I mentioned.



Surely there are times when you HAVE to cross wrists?

Footwork and perfecting your striking is what I'd recommend. Turn your practice space into a battlefield, where there are many foes, so when you have dealt with one, you must turn and deal with another. By perfecting your strikes I mean target a mark of contact when you strike, don't just run through strikes aimlessly, you are in a duel, your opponent has made a move, now you must counter, where are they open, where are you open, where are you aiming? Push and pull, when you cut, push with the top hand, pull with the bottom. Don't hyperextend, but let your strike flow naturally.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Footwork and perfecting your striking is what I'd recommend. Turn your practice space into a battlefield, where there are many foes, so when you have dealt with one, you must turn and deal with another. By perfecting your strikes I mean target a mark of contact when you strike, don't just run through strikes aimlessly, you are in a duel, your opponent has made a move, now you must counter, where are they open, where are you open, where are you aiming? Push and pull, when you cut, push with the top hand, pull with the bottom. Don't hyperextend, but let your strike flow naturally.

Plenty to work on then! lol

Thank you, I shall get busy with those suggestions. FWIW, I did have in mind what I was trying to accomplish with each combination in the above video, though I admit that there are times when I'm less than successful. hehe

On footwork, one thing I've noticed is a tendency to cross my feet, which does appear in the Shii-Cho Dulon, but is not mentioned as a core "step", as it were. Do you have any thoughts on this, and whether in fact the Dulon formality should and CAN translate into a more free, combat oriented routine. What I mean is, you'll probably be aware that a lot of traditional Martial Arts have "forms" that you learn, and then completely throw away when you spar (this was certainly true of TKD)

I'm wondering if sabering is any different.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Hmm, form work should lead to similar techniques being used in sparring or combat. Now often the way you employ these techniques vary on the battlefield from training.

For instance, I practiced how to get out of a wrist hold and place someone in an armbar, I also learned how to react if someone bends their elbow while you're going for an armbar, I also learned a reversal of that into what we affectionately called a gooseneck. (The attacker's arm looks like the shape of a goose's neck) now we practiced most of these techniques independently of each other, when a situation came up and I used the armbar technique I found myself reversing the technique when my assailant bent his elbow. Now by appearance I threw out the form. However in actuality I was staying more true to the form than I realized.

Now this is merely a theoretical incidence to prove a point. My point being, the techniques that you learn are the form. Now when sparring occurs you get the spontaneity and unpredictability of simulated combat. The form trains you for that simulated combat, develops patterns in your brain that re teach you how to react to stimuli. Because I don't know about you but my first instinct as a child to someone swinging at me, was to ball up and hope for the best. Now my innate reaction is different, because I trained my body to be different.

That form that I did, only gets thrown out in sequence. The techniques remain the same, the reactions remain the same, the only difference is your inflection is pure when you are forced to react. When you spar it is truly Arkanus' interpretation of Shii Cho. How well you represent that form depends on your ability to adapt that form to work for you.

To answer what I believe was your question, there is nothing wrong with crossing your feet, as long as you are working on your footwork it should be fine. If you notice you aren't sure footed I would work on not crossing your feet, but as long as you are confident and able to do so, jive on my friend.

[GrumpyBadger]

as for crossing your feet,

I think it depends on the circumstance and the given application that you are choosing to use it with.

for example, generally I don't cross my feet in Destreza with my rapier, for the most part it is frowned upon even.  However, Pacheco - a skilled period master of Destreza - (at least I think it was Pacheco) says it's a good idea to cross the left heel a bit behind the right foot when fighting against another rapier swordsman that uses a strong Italian stance.  It helps ground us and anchors our position against a forward attack.  It also leaves us blindingly off-balance if we don't move against an outside attack on our left side.  

that's at least my two cents on it, take it or leave it

I really like what you've been doing and your practice and dedication are showing.

as for crossing the wrists... that definitely opened up a can of worms and I'm debating on starting a new thread.  For example, the way you are crossing your wrists in that guard, looks excellent and isn't what I'm describing as a thing "not to do."

[Master Lucien Kane]

I'd say go for it, the way of the saber section is designed for us all to discuss the ins and outs of lightsaber combat. As long as it isn't breaking any rules, I.E. not giving formal instruction or being a jerk in general (which you are not) The opinions and thoughts of others are welcome here!

and to mimic what GB has said, you are looking pretty good Arkanus, we need to do a google hangout my friend.

[Darth_Arkanus]

I'd say go for it, the way of the saber section is designed for us all to discuss the ins and outs of lightsaber combat. As long as it isn't breaking any rules, I.E. not giving formal instruction or being a jerk in general (which you are not) The opinions and thoughts of others are welcome here!

and to mimic what GB has said, you are looking pretty good Arkanus, we need to do a google hangout my friend.

PLEASE Master Lucien! I'd love to do a hangout! I have some time available in the evenings here, if you can let me know when you might be available, and we can convert it to UK Summer time (UCT+1 I believe)

[Master Lucien Kane]

PLEASE Master Lucien! I'd love to do a hangout! I have some time available in the evenings here, if you can let me know when you might be available, and we can convert it to UK Summer time (UCT+1 I believe)

Lol okay, give me specific times, I can make just about anything work, I just need heads up.