Plot failure between Jedi and Sith?

[Jedi Knight Matatabi]

So the way I believe it is that if a Jedi starts using his anger to control how he fights, he turns to the dark side.....but why.....
I mean why can't Jedi use their emotions to win a fight and just stay good?
Its like the Sith are like:
Sith: "Gooood. You have released your anger. Now, join me and together we can take over the galaxy!"
Jedi: "Why would I do that?"
Sith: "Um...because you used your anger in a fight, and clearly that means you have a lust for power and will do anything to get more."
Jedi: "Nope not really. I just lost it a little. I'm fine now."
Sith: "But...you can't do that. You have to join me now."
Jedi: "Why? Why do people that use their emotions have to start murdering people and stuff?"
Sith: "Because...um...wow that actually makes sense...all these years and I got it all wrong. The hell have I been doin all this time?"
Jedi: "I know right? Why can't you use both sides of the force and just use it for good? You'd be like twice as powerful but don't have to worry about being killed and replaced constantly because of that stupid 'Only two sith; Master and Apprentice' rule."
Sith: "Holy crap...this is groundbreaking. I must tell everyone!!"

No seriously...this is how the confrontation between Luke and the Emperor should have been. Or better yet Anakin and the Emperor when Anakin first turned to the dark side. I mean seriously, he lost control over his anger and now he's TOTALLY fine randomly killing young jedi? What kind of crappy plot twist is that??!!!

By the way don't take this the wrong way. I am a HUGE Star Wars fan, I just ordered my first lightsaber, and I LOVE conversations about it. Its just I really don't see the common sense in this logic...

[Kresnik]

A Jedi does not instantly fall too the dark side for getting angry in a fight ...

Every incident that lead to a jedi falling was philosophical and simply not shown in its duration and entirety in the movie.

Anakin started his turn  events leading up to episode 3 and he was eventually turned once palp convinced him to turn to save his wife ...

I think you over simplified a much more complex concept ...

Tyrannous didn't fall to the dark side after an argument ... He fell after years of frustration and dissent from the Jedi ranks...

Sorry too pop your bubble...

[Jedi Knight Matatabi]

A Jedi does not instantly fall too the dark side for getting angry in a fight ...

Every incident that lead to a jedi falling was philosophical and simply not shown in its duration and entirety in the movie.

Anakin started his turn  events leading up to episode 3 and he was eventually turned once palp convinced him to turn to save his wife ...

I think you over simplified a much more complex concept ...

Tyrannous didn't fall to the dark side after an argument ... He fell after years of frustration and dissent from the Jedi ranks...

Sorry too pop your bubble...

I haven't really followed the books or the other characters back stories as much, so I'm only drawing from the movies. It just seemed like the eventual fall of Anakin was just too easy for him. I mean yeah he wanted to keep the emperor to save his wife but you know he could have simply blocked Mace's sword instead of chopping his hand off. And even after that he's like "oh god what have I done? i killed Mace....looks like im evil now TIME TO KILL ME SOME YOUNGLINGS!!"
And even in Luke's case you could tell he was struggling with his emotions when he was fighting Vader and straying away from the Light Side. The thing that convinced him otherwise was seeing Vader's arm and seeing how he was similar to him. He didn't want to end up that way. That entire time the emperor was trying to convince Luke to use his anger and join him....just because he was getting angry. I mean its like the ONLY reason the emperor was using to try and get him to fall to the dark side. You're not really busting my bubble, I'm mainly refering to those two cases, NOT any of the other cases like Dooku. I'm not really trying to over simplify anything, I just dont understand.

[Darth Obvious]

Agreed that Anakin's fall to the dark side in the movie was idiotic. He went from "what have I done?" to becoming Darth Vader in a few seconds.

I guess we need to see the Clone Wars cartoon for it to make sense. But the bottom line is that the movie shouldn't need a cartoon to explain its glaring flaws.

[Kresnik]

Agreed that Anakin's fall to the dark side in the movie was idiotic. He went from "what have I done?" to becoming Darth Vader in a few seconds.

I guess we need to see the Clone Wars cartoon for it to make sense. But the bottom line is that the movie shouldn't need a cartoon to explain its glaring flaws.

Lol a cartoon, comics, books etc either ... They basically skipped a lot of character development ... I mean really the first major thing was cutting down all the tuskens

[Frizzenflyer]

lets also put forward the notion that some people are sociopaths or psychopaths, I don't want to turn this into a nature Vs. nurture debate because I think it's a mix of the two, but suppose Anakin had latent psychological disorders and the confusion coupled with the feeling of betrayal from the Jedi council with the stress of killing a Jedi Knight that he respected and not knowing whether it was the right thing or not may have led to him experiencing a psychotic breakdown. the movies do not explain it well at all but I think that is a likely scenario.

by the way I do not have a degree in psychology so don't quote me.

[Kresnik]

Overall I would not call it a plot hole, it was just poor writing ... Really the fall of Anakin was seen in several ways

His irritation with the council in ep 2 and 3

His relationship with Amidala against the Jedi code

His misguided hatred towards "corruption" when he was being lead by corruption "

His slaying of the Tusken camp was the biggest catalyst he was pretty much turned

Being shown that the corruption of the Jedi by Mace Windu someone that was always there to question Anakin from the beginning / Anakin didn't trust him and seeing him with a saber to his leader throat was enough to let it go

The be-heading of Dooku

Now that I think about it ... Thu did a lot to show his descent to the dark side it was just quickly done that is all

[Jedi Knight Matatabi]

Overall I would not call it a plot hole, it was just poor writing ... Really the fall of Anakin was seen in several ways

His irritation with the council in ep 2 and 3

His relationship with Amidala against the Jedi code

His misguided hatred towards "corruption" when he was being lead by corruption "

His slaying of the Tusken camp was the biggest catalyst he was pretty much turned

Being shown that the corruption of the Jedi by Mace Windu someone that was always there to question Anakin from the beginning / Anakin didn't trust him and seeing him with a saber to his leader throat was enough to let it go

The be-heading of Dooku

Now that I think about it ... Thu did a lot to show his descent to the dark side it was just quickly done that is all

I agree there were signs but nothing to trigger the actual turn to the dark side.
The Tusken camp was caused due to extreme anger and revenge, but he just lost it. He didn't become an evil person bent on destroying the world, he just simply lost it at that moment. And the Tuskens were always considered bad guys (again, going by the movies. idk anything outside of them) so no1 really felt sorry for them...well except when he mentioned that he killed the young ones too.
The beheading was also another thing that people attribute to his turn but the fact is that Jedi kill in war all the time. Sure Dooku was too dangerous to live but even Mace Windu pulled the same stunt when he was fighting the emperor. Hell even Anakin said "he should face trial" on BOTH accounts. I'll be it the latter of the two he only did because he needed him but even after he killed Dooku he regretted it. And yes I know Mace Windu was known to be in a somewhat grey area when it came to the light and dark side, but his intentions were always good and he never let himself stray away from the light. If Anakin had simply realized all he did was just lose it due to his anger issues he could have avoided this entire conflict. Although after he inadvertently assisted in killing Mace he pretty much had no choice but to leave the Jedi, he didn't have to join the dark side. But pretty much after the death of Mace his fate was sealed. He couldnt go back because if he did he would probably be executed for killing Mace, even if he did apprehend the emperor afterwards. However killing everyone because of his blind hate for the Jedi (btw what exactly did the Jedi to him to deserve being slaughtered? NOTHING. he was just frustrated with their rulings and ethics. they never once betrayed him. he was just being a cry baby. i mean seriously, become a Jedi and then leave the temple after the babies were born.) was just plain stupid on the screenwriters part.

[Master Rel]

I simple consideration of a complex situation.

How about a real world consideration...a pair of students going to law school.

Jed and Sid.

Jed wants to end up with a degree, pass the bar, practice law!

Sid wants to end up with a degree, pass the bar, practice law!

Jed takes the advice of mentors and studies hard and long.

Sid takes the advice of a powerful lawyer acquaintance, he wants what that guy has but wants it now, so he starts working while at school which hurts his studies...he cheats, pays others to do his work, take his tests, etc.

Jed gets what he wants.

Sid gets what he wants.

Jed is a lawyer.

Sid is a living a lie, when it catches up with him, he will be in jail.  If he gets caught.

Hard to compare exactly, but it is in there.

Jedi do not avoid emotions, that would be Vulcans my friend.  Jedi avoid being led by their emotions, because when you wield a power that could cause harm they believe that this requires focus and attention to being calm.

The sith are selfish and do not care what the cost, they want power and they want it now.  Playing with emotional outlet gives them access to more raw power, but the stories you do not hear are about the 99% of sith students that crash and burn due to emotional outlet overload.

Though I did enjoy the initial example, made me laugh a bit 

[Darth Scorpious]

While all methods of Sith training had the same goal of crafting the initiate into a powerful, dark side-fueled weapon, there were many different methods and traditions for doing so, as a result of the frequent reformist actions undertaken by the various Sith regimes. However, many aspects remained constant.

Firstly, as the Sith were possessed of considerably higher standards than the Jedi, their training was a great deal more intensive and much more exclusive. As it was geared towards weeding out the weak, it was quite often potentially lethal.[1] Sith adepts were taught to draw upon their rage and use the Force as a weapon and a tool for personal advancement. Overt displays of power, such as advanced Force techniques and martial prowess, were focused on.[2]



"Choosing an apprentice can be a strenuous endeavor. The most important thing to remember is that the apprentice's purpose is to serve the master." ―Darth Sidious[src]

Entering Sith training depended heavily on which organization was dominant. The Sith Empires relied on academic institutions for teaching prospective Sith, while the Rule of Two Sith Lords relied on a much more exclusive system of scouting out prospective students and recruiting them.[2] The primary difference between the two is that the academy system was applied during periods when the Sith were massed together into a political and military force, which required large numbers,[2] while the Rule of Two system was applied because the Sith limited their numbers to two, so a much higher standard was needed.

Entry into the Sith academies was again dependent on the rules of the dominant organization. Under Darth Revan's empire, prospective students had to be sponsored by one of the academy instructors,[1] while under Lord Kaan, the only requirement appeared to be Force sensitivity, and the rigorous training regimes themselves were relied upon to weed out unfit candidates.[2]


"…Taking the life of an innocent is always harder even than taking your own, if you're sincere. This is the ultimate test of selflessness—whether you're ready to face unending emotional pain, true agony, to gain the power to create peace and order for billions of total strangers. That is the sacrifice. To be vilified by others, by people you know and care for, and for your personal sacrifice to be totally unknown to those billions you save, to do your duty as a Sith. To do your duty for the good of the galaxy. It's easy to be a clean-cut hero slaying monsters. There's always a little bit of vanity in it. There can be no room for vanity or pride in being despised.


Its much more than just being angry or selfish the same as Jedi it takes dedication and sacrifice to become truly Sith. The fall of Anakin was not shown well in the movie. The story its self was a very emotional rollercoaster that was not done the justice it deserved.

[Jedi Knight Matatabi]

I simple consideration of a complex situation.

How about a real world consideration...a pair of students going to law school.

Jed and Sid.

Jed wants to end up with a degree, pass the bar, practice law!

Sid wants to end up with a degree, pass the bar, practice law!

Jed takes the advice of mentors and studies hard and long.

Sid takes the advice of a powerful lawyer acquaintance, he wants what that guy has but wants it now, so he starts working while at school which hurts his studies...he cheats, pays others to do his work, take his tests, etc.

Jed gets what he wants.

Sid gets what he wants.

Jed is a lawyer.

Sid is a living a lie, when it catches up with him, he will be in jail.  If he gets caught.

Hard to compare exactly, but it is in there.

Jedi do not avoid emotions, that would be Vulcans my friend.  Jedi avoid being led by their emotions, because when you wield a power that could cause harm they believe that this requires focus and attention to being calm.

The sith are selfish and do not care what the cost, they want power and they want it now.  Playing with emotional outlet gives them access to more raw power, but the stories you do not hear are about the 99% of sith students that crash and burn due to emotional outlet overload.

Though I did enjoy the initial example, made me laugh a bit 

I like your analogy. But in Anakin's case....

Anakin wants to be a lawyer.

Anakin takes the advice of his mentors but gets frustrated at some of the rules involved.

Crooked lawyer promises him money and power.

Anakin wants it but wants to do the right thing. He reports the crooked lawyer.

Crooked lawyer is found out and is being sent to jail by bad ass detective.

Anakin chops off bad ass detective's hand and crooked lawyer force lightnings his face and....wait a minute.....

I agree with you 100% that what you said is normally how the Sith are. But again Anakin is a special case. He over reacted. He did the right thing by reporting him but he shouldn't have over reacted.

You know now that I think about it, this is all Mace's fault. He was going against the Jedi code by trying to kill the Emperor after he had disabled him. And come on, YOU DON'T TAKE ONLY 3 PEOPLE AS BACKUP TO ARREST ONE OF THE BIGGEST DARK LORDS IN HISTORY!!! You bring an entire team of Jedi for that crap. Although I was dissapointed Kit Fisto didn't last longer. But I guess he was just a background character in the movie so thats to be expected.

[Jedi Knight Matatabi]

While all methods of Sith training had the same goal of crafting the initiate into a powerful, dark side-fueled weapon, there were many different methods and traditions for doing so, as a result of the frequent reformist actions undertaken by the various Sith regimes. However, many aspects remained constant.

Firstly, as the Sith were possessed of considerably higher standards than the Jedi, their training was a great deal more intensive and much more exclusive. As it was geared towards weeding out the weak, it was quite often potentially lethal.[1] Sith adepts were taught to draw upon their rage and use the Force as a weapon and a tool for personal advancement. Overt displays of power, such as advanced Force techniques and martial prowess, were focused on.[2]



"Choosing an apprentice can be a strenuous endeavor. The most important thing to remember is that the apprentice's purpose is to serve the master." ―Darth Sidious[src]

Entering Sith training depended heavily on which organization was dominant. The Sith Empires relied on academic institutions for teaching prospective Sith, while the Rule of Two Sith Lords relied on a much more exclusive system of scouting out prospective students and recruiting them.[2] The primary difference between the two is that the academy system was applied during periods when the Sith were massed together into a political and military force, which required large numbers,[2] while the Rule of Two system was applied because the Sith limited their numbers to two, so a much higher standard was needed.

Entry into the Sith academies was again dependent on the rules of the dominant organization. Under Darth Revan's empire, prospective students had to be sponsored by one of the academy instructors,[1] while under Lord Kaan, the only requirement appeared to be Force sensitivity, and the rigorous training regimes themselves were relied upon to weed out unfit candidates.[2]


"…Taking the life of an innocent is always harder even than taking your own, if you're sincere. This is the ultimate test of selflessness—whether you're ready to face unending emotional pain, true agony, to gain the power to create peace and order for billions of total strangers. That is the sacrifice. To be vilified by others, by people you know and care for, and for your personal sacrifice to be totally unknown to those billions you save, to do your duty as a Sith. To do your duty for the good of the galaxy. It's easy to be a clean-cut hero slaying monsters. There's always a little bit of vanity in it. There can be no room for vanity or pride in being despised.


Its much more than just being angry or selfish the same as Jedi it takes dedication and sacrifice to become truly Sith. The fall of Anakin was not shown well in the movie. The story its self was a very emotional rollercoaster that was not done the justice it deserved.

I appreciate the backstory of sith training alot. I'm always trying to learn new things about the star wars franchise outside of the movies. And I figured it would be something like that. But I guess what I'm mainly trying to point out is the conversion of the noble Jedi to the dark Sith. Do you have any detailed examples of Jedi turning bad and having good reasons to throw away their morals?

[Xaeyon]

I appreciate the backstory of sith training alot. I'm always trying to learn new things about the star wars franchise outside of the movies. And I figured it would be something like that. But I guess what I'm mainly trying to point out is the conversion of the noble Jedi to the dark Sith. Do you have any detailed examples of Jedi turning bad and having good reasons to throw away their morals?

Here let me rewrite your lawyer analogy to better fit Anakin:


Anakin wants to be a lawyer.

Anakin takes the advice of his mentors but gets frustrated at some of the rules involved.

Crooked lawyer promises him power to save his wife, also revealing his true intentions.

Anakin wants it but wants to do the right thing. He reports the crooked lawyer to a superior that is supposed to uphold the integrity of the Jedi Order.

Crooked lawyer is confronted by bad ass detective.

BAMF is seen being a hypocrite by Anakin (i.e. Anni did the right thing but his senior can ignore the rules that they stress he follows)

Anakin now believes that the Jedi are corrupt.

Crooked lawyer offers him power to stop the war and save his wife.

Anakin gives himself heart and soul over to the Sith to bring peace to the galaxy and save Padmé.

Anakin has to completely tear down the corrupt Jedi Order to prevent the corruption of more minds into a fascist regime. What is thousands of lives of a corrupt society in the face of the quadrillion/s of lives in the entire galaxy? 

[Xaeyon]

I also want to point out that using the Dark Side is not like cheating and making others do his work...

it's more like Jed does his studies quietly in the library. It might take a few hours a day, but he will learn, and learn well.

Sid, on the other hand, takes drugs (probably most equatable to some nicotine based dexy) to increase his learning capacity and learns much faster than Jed and does not have to spend so much time with his head in the books; Sid can usually be found cramming the night before the test. Unfortunately, the drugs Sid takes are addictive and he must keep taking them. The DS has been described as "more addictive than spice".

So when the Emperor is telling Luke to use his anger, it's like peer pressure to have a cigarette. You have one, and that's not too bad, but if Luke keeps 'lighting up' (using the DS), he will become addicted and develop a craving that put him at the mercy of the Emperor's suggestion.


Long story short, don't do drugs.

[James Casey]

Ignoring the expanded universe, everything below comes from the three prequel movies.

In Ep1 Anakin is conflicted by leaving his mother. He's a good kid who helps Qui-Gon in a pinch "without thought of reward" but he's clearly intimidated by the Jedi Council, and feels out of place on Coruscant. He misses his mother, and the man who's taken him away from her (at her urging, mind) is killed within days of his leaving Tatooine.

The task of training Anakin falls to Obi-Wan - a colossal misstep on the part of the Jedi Council. Obi-Wan is barely more than a child himself, and nothing in his training can have prepared him for taking on the role of parent to a boy who has to learn, fast, all the control that the Jedi instil in initiate almost from birth. The younglings we see in Eps 2 and 3 are much younger than Anakin was when he began his training, after all.

In Episode 2 we see Anakin chafing at the restrictions placed on him. He's been kept away from Padme and Jar Jar, his only 'friends' outside of the Order because the Order avoids attachment (never mind that Obi-Wan is friends with Daxter the diner owner, I think it's clear that the Jedi teach against forming deep, dependent attachements on other people - for why, we're about to see...). Anakin talks about his potential, about being more powerful than the other Jedi, and it should also be noted that he boasts about having Obi-Wan as his mentor, "as wise as Master Windu, as powerful as Master Yoda" or however he puts it. Not only does he think he's way above where he actually is, he thinks that Obi-Wan is even more powerful yet – raising himself up by his being the only pupil Obi-Wan has taken. Seeing Obi-Wan brought down (and easily!) by Dooku in the final battle must have been a shock to his system. And, along the way, he falls in angsty teenage love with Padme, who really ought to have known better, not least because Anakin is a mass murderer, having slaughtered all those Tuskens after his mother died at their hands. Anakin’s first big test... and he fails it. Interestingly, Yoda seems to know something happened on Tatooine, but the subject is never brought up on screen. What can we infer from that? Was the Dark Side clouding the perception and judgment of the Jedi even then? It would seem so.

By Episode 3 Anakin's a fully-fledged Jedi, no longer Obi-Wan's padawan. His marriage to Padme is secret, their relationship probably one of brief moments of deep intimacy and long periods of separation - Anakin is a General in the army, and no doubt required to be out on long deployments. Only Palpatine knows the truth on the matter, and between Anakin's secret love and secret mentor, he's already keeping a lot from the Jedi Council. For a start, he doesn’t mention that he killed Dooku, contrary to his wishes to bring the Sith into custody, but entirely in line with Palpatine’s promptings. That distrust is fostered by Palpatine, who arranges for him to become a member of the Council, but the Jedi react by refusing Anakin promotion to the rank of Master that usually accompanies a seat on the Council. The rift between Anakin and the Jedi widens.

Anakin begins to be plagued by visions of the future, visions of Padme’s death. In Episode 2 it was his mother’s death – a situation he reacted to by slaughtering the whole tribe of Tuskens, even the innocents. He couldn’t save his mother, but he will save Padme, no matter what. However, having never admitted the truth of his relationship to Pademe to the Jedi, the only person he can talk to is Palpatine... who spins the tale of Plagueis the Wise. Anakin comes to realise that Palpatine is the Sith the Jedi have been hunting for, and he does the right thing, reporting him to the Jedi Council, even after all the distrust that has grown between them.

Then Anakin walks in on the final moments of the duel between Windu and Palpatine. Windu is set to kill the Sith, who appears helpless. That is not justice, that is not the Jedi way, Windu is supposed to be better than this...

Years of frustration, anger, hatred, disappointment... They all boil over at once. Windu loses his hand, Palpatine shocks him out of the window, Anakin has just helped kill a Jedi. Everything is undone, everything is gone, everything... but Padme.

“Join me, and together we’ll save her... but first, I need you to do something...”

Anakin’s only hope is to turn to the Dark Side. Palpatine will only help him save Padme if he gives in to the Dark Side.

Torn by anger the Jedi, wracked by fear for Padme, shattered by his hatred for what he’s become... Anakin falls. The only thing he has left is Padme... for now.