Musings on Djem So

[Master VorNach]

Parallels to archaic weapons
(medieval longsword/messer fighting (two handed and one handed saber play)).
There have been a variety of discussion about what sorts of martial arts could be adapted for use with lightsaber fighting styles. While I have some history with several East Asian styles of martial arts much of my current training revolves around the ongoing revival of Western martial arts (WMA), specifically material derived from German Fechtmeister (fight master/fencing master) of the 15th and 16th centuries, predominantly Johannes Liechtenauer.

From this information I’ve been reviewing concepts of the medieval longsword and the German messer (literal translation is knife, in practice a single edged, slightly curved one handed sword) and looking to adapt the principles and techniques from traditional sword arts for the Djem So form.

The medieval longsword, and medieval swords in general, despite the presentation in entertainment media, is not a clumsy metal stick best used to batter poor, hapless peasants into a puddle of goo. It is a weapon of considerable grace that requires more than a modicum of finesse in order to employ it to maximum effect. At the outset this may sound more in line with Form II: Makashi and there are indeed some parallel concepts but these are better compared to lighter weight, later period weapons such as the rapier.

I’ll start with some general fighting concept comparisons and in later posts talk about specific principles and techniques.

Concepts:
About Djem So we have information that talks about its aggressive powerful approach with the idea of turning an opponent's energy back against them.

   “Both Shien and Djem So were designed to use an opponent's attack against them, as evidenced by Shien's focus on returning blaster bolts to their origin and Djem So's emphasis on immediately striking back after a blow.”
   “Form V, [...] was created by Form III: Soresu masters who desired a more offensive style, since the defensive nature of Form III often led to prolonged combat...”
   “...a Djem So practitioner was not as passive. Immediately after defending against an opponent's strike, a Djem So stylist followed with an attack of their own, bringing the force of the opponent's own blow against them and seeking to dominate the duel. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack.”

This is one of the few, though significant, differences I’ve come across so far; the idea of a Djem So practitioner waiting for an opponent to strike before wading in to carve them into cutlets, while longsword fencers are taught to attack immediately to gain control of the initiative of the fight.

   Liechtenauer: “If you only strike after, you will have little joy from his art...”
Which basically means if you wait for your opponent to swing first you are starting the bout at a disadvantage. One of the basic lessons from the Liechtenauer tradition is you attack first and then you keep attacking, maintaining the initiative and keeping your opponent on the defensive.

And this is where the styles meet back up. With Djem So once you do begin your offensive process it’s relentless.
   “Some Jedi, noting its dedication to domination and strength, felt that Form V encouraged an inappropriate focus on controlling one's assailants.”
   “Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault...”

Master Liechtenauer has a lot to say on this topic in regards to the longsword too:
    “and then you shall go at him quickly and with speed to the head and to the body.”
     “Be quick and steady without faltering, at once so that he cannot strike.”
   “And always be in motion, this will force the opponent to be on the defence and not be able to come to blows himself. For he who defends against strikes is always in greater danger than the one who strikes, since he must either defend or allow himself to be hit if he is to have a chance to strike a blow himself.”

So what we find so far is a strong similarity in ideas around aggression and situational control of the bout.
In later posts I’ll dig into the idea of turning an opponent's energy back against them while exploring individual techniques, where we’ll find some not very surprising overlaps.


Safe journey.




(Text quotes on German longsword are from an early interpretation of Liechtenauer’s fechtbuch,
Cod.HS.3227a, by Hanko Döbringer with the modern translation and transcription provided by David Lindholm, et. al. , 2005.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Dobringer_A5_sidebyside.pdf)

[Master Nero Attoru]

This is a great post VorNach.  I'm glad to finally see some longsword expertise put to use in examining Form V, since I've read that the two have a great deal of overlap.

The point about pressing the assault is definitely an important one - Djem So thrives on domination.  As you mentioned, the form was developed to adapt the concepts of Soresu in a more aggressive way, in order to avoid prolonging a fight unnecessarily.  I've always pegged Djem So as utilizing Soresu's tight defense in an offensive matter... which compromises the defense somewhat, but GREATLY increases the threat towards the opponent.  In doing this, shifting the momentum towards the opponent, you're basically undermining their ability to attack.  In some ways Djem So personifies the saying "the best defense is a good offense."

I'm a big fan of Djem So, and look forward to more input from you on it!

[Darth Nonymous]

i think you can see pretty clearly on our sparring video, how aggressive the Longsword/Djem So philosophy is. Most of the time, I found myself retreating out of his range. Most of the time it's just trying to parry the attacks coming in leaving you no opportunity to launch a counter attack. Beingon the receiving end sure isn't as fun as being on the giving one.

Tons of knowledge being brought to bear here.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Great post! I think you definitely have the grasp of what Djem So is, and what it isn't... this is a great topic, and you nailed it!

[Master VorNach]

Thanks for the positive feedback folks.
And look, I have more on the way. I wanted to start with some observations about the conceptual similarities after mulling over what I've written so far.

Applying longsword techniques to the lightsaber so far has been a very smooth transition. To date the most significant difference I've been working to sort out is the structure of the tools; there is no cross guard on a lightsaber. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the forums this can present a challenge to some of the techniques with the longsword that rely on cross guard. After some free-play experiments I can say that it is possible to adapt the lightsaber to many of those techniques and, given the rich variety of possible techniques available, this has not had a noticeable negative impact on my application of longsword style to the lightsaber.
I'll likely come back to this when I examine some individual techniques that need tweeking in order to remain effective under these circumstances.


Now today's discussion.

"Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack.
Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault,...."

"you with a good first strike shall close in without fear or hesitation and strike at the openings, to the head and to the body, regardless whether you hit or miss you will confuse the opponent and put fear into him, so that the he does not know what to do against you. Then before the opponent can gather himself and come back, you shall do the after strike so that he will have to defend yet again and not be able to strike himself."

As Djem So is presented as an aggressive Form within the panoply of Lightsaber forms, so to is the longsword an aggressive style. One of the basic concepts of the longsword is to attack first and continue doing so to maintain the initiative, keeping your opponent on the defensive and responding to your techniques. On a side note, this is hard to do! Maintaining the constant flow of attacks, while controlling your opponents weapon takes a lot of focus and a lot of energy. And there's something about a relentless attack that, at least for me at this point in my training, seems to be counter to the ebb and flow of a bout. I think this is predominantly me imposing a perspective on myself that isn't really there but getting past that is a challenge, fun but a challenge.
In any case....


In addition the longsword combatant is not supposed to "just parry", which would surrender the initiative. Rather each movement is an attack or maneuver that breaches the opponent's guard so the motion can continue into an attack. The defensive side of the longsword is this ongoing series of attacks. Each of your attacks is also a defensive posture which may deflect, block, redirect or otherwise foil whatever attack the opponent is throwing out. We have a sample of this in an earlier video:
http://youtu.be/iIf4n5tq4tU. Roll ahead to near the ending;
from 07:44 to 07:48 we are both attacking to each others heads. The idea here is the blades would intersect and negate the initial contact, which in turn leads to further explorations in each others defenses.
Again at 07:51 I throw a strong downward cut to Darth N's head as I pass back. The step back is not very Djem So but the concept of attacking as a defense is demonstrated at that point as I am intersecting Darth N's blade and keeping my blade between us, to discourage an aggressive advance, as I move out of range.
Both styles reflect an aggressive mindset in order to take control of the engagement.


Taking a step in another direction I wanted to briefly discuss footwork.
Footwork is an essential element, a fundamental aspect of martial arts. Sadly in my initial read through much of the available lightsaber combat material I found that while footwork is mentioned in each of the forms it’s given pretty short shrift. I could probably go on about footwork as an entire thread unto itself however Darth Nonymous has already gotten the ball rolling (http://youtu.be/BnaRY-oPuRU).
For the time being I’ll another of Master Liechtenauer’s comments, this time on footwork.
“Also know that when you fence with another you should step with caution and be sure in the steps as if you were standing on a scale and adapt accordingly if you go forward or backward.”

Djem So is said to move very little in comparison to other Forms:
"Whereas a failing of Shien was its weakness against a single opponent Djem So was known for having a lack of mobility."

In longsword we are moving quite a bit. Almost every action involves some kind of step and it’s often quite dynamic:
"When you step or leap in to close with the opponent as soon as you see that you can reach him with step or leap, then you shall close with strikes to the openings...."

However when I looked at this in comparison to the maneuvers that are described as being augmented by the Force for some of the other Forms, the footwork derived from longsword really is fairly sedate and minimal. So from the perspective of storytelling, role play and perhaps some choreographed options Djem So might appear to be using minimal movement. For the real world practitioner, however, expect that the footwork is going to be a significant, vital part of your training. Go do some cardio training. Like saber fighting....

And that is all for today. Next time I'm on I think I'll have some discussion of individual techniques to compare.
Safe journey.

[Master VorNach]

I've been doing a lot of writing without a lot of demonstrating in this thread so far.
I could probably go on writing about this for a long time. However I would also like to actual show some of what I'm talking about.
I'll be putting together some kind of graphics display in the near future, not sure if it will be video or stills yet.
In the meanwhile is there interest in my continuing to be somewhat pedantic in my break down and comparison?
I still have a lot of text material I could cover if there's enough interest.

[Darth Nonymous]

I've been doing a lot of writing without a lot of demonstrating in this thread so far.
I could probably go on writing about this for a long time. However I would also like to actual show some of what I'm talking about.
I'll be putting together some kind of graphics display in the near future, not sure if it will be video or stills yet.
In the meanwhile is there interest in my continuing to be somewhat pedantic in my break down and comparison?
I still have a lot of text material I could cover if there's enough interest.

I for one would love to see what you have down. Extremely detailed research and a wealth of knowledge.

[Veldryne]

This is all really good information. In some of the earliest videos i took and showed to a couple of the masters, they said my bladework looked very much to be a half and half mix of soresu and djem so, while my primary sparring partner looked pure djem so to their eyes. Nice to read a little bit more on the form from someone with actual longsword experience.

[Master VorNach]

A word on aggression.
     “When you have done the first strike then you shall without any delay do the following strike and you should also stay in motion and do one thing after another. If the first attack does not work then the second, the third or the fourth will hit, and you shall not let the opponent come to blows.”

While there is often an assumption, likely based on the text descriptions of Djem So, that the purpose of the aggression and power of the form is to demolish one's opponent. It is quite possible to engage an opponent in this Form using the marks of contact "sun djem" and "shiin" in an aggressive fashion and still win the bout without committing serious harm. Of course the power of the Form also lends itself to some of the more significant Marks quite easily.
Surprise, surprise we can draw some parallels to the longsword here as well. Techniques like the Crooked Strike and the Scalper can be done in a fashion to cause debilitating but non-crippling and non-mortal injuries. I've even found references to these concepts in the literature; the flick (Schnall) and the tag-hit (Zeckrur) are described as small attacks with the tip or flat of the blade.



"The characteristic Djem So attack was dubbed the "Falling Avalanche," an overhand power blow that crashed down upon an opponent with exceptional force."
The classic longsword opening is a high guard very similar to this description, called "Vom Tag" (from the roof), from which a strong downward cut is launched, called zornhau, the wrath cut.

   


One of the basic concepts discussed in longsword is about being "strong or weak" (sterke oder swach) when in the bind at the blade. This is not a value judgement about you or a literal comment on your strength. This is tied into the concept of "feeling" (fühlen) or sensitivity, which I'll come back to when we move on to the "Fluid Riposte".
Being strong in the bind is to have commitment to the action and is usually a part of an over powering cut (durchbrechen) where you have a mechanical/positional advantage allowing you to deliver your cut to the target while driving their blade out of line. It can also be a prelude to a sudden closing motion (einlauffen), which can lead to inside-blade work or grappling.

"Djem So users also employed a tactic known as the "Fluid Riposte," which involved a smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike."
The principle of the "Fluid Riposte" is a very useful concept because it's so practical. Conveniently it's also a great description of a multitude of longsword techniques.
Coming back to the idea of  "feeling" (fühlen) or sensitivity when in the bind, this is one of those concepts that's easy to describe and rather challenging to pull off.

At the time of contact with your opponent you "feel" their level of commitment in the bind. Being strong usually involves overpowering to push through the opposing blade, sweep it aside or otherwise control the opponents blade position and direction from a position of strength (How very Djem So!). Being weak in the bind is not a bad thing, it's just another perspective and is usually a good thing when dealing with someone who is stronger in the bind than you. Weak does not mean you have no commitment to the action or that you are not maintaining solid form or even being strong in the bind. Weak in this case means being fluid enough (Fluid Riposte !) to redirect your opponent and allow their energy to travel off in another direction, taking their blade out of line while yours comes into line and (hopefully for you)  finishes the encounter. This can take a number of forms; redirecting the blades direction of travel to pass above you, slipping under and changing your cut to a thrust, maintaining contact and winding around their blade to attack from the other side, using the energy of their strike to accelerate your own blade around into a counter strike. There are a host of opportunities.

If both combatants are strong or both are weak at the bind you have some decisions to make and not a lot of time to make them. There are a number of other considerations including things like; where the point of contact is on each blade, relative position of your body and strong lines to those of your opponent, the stance and guard position* you are in and what attack you just used.

*(Yes, when throwing an attack you will be in some variation of a guard position, guard stances are points of transition moved through during the engagement. That will be another post, hopefully with video.)

The fun happens when both you and your opponent are practicing these principles and you end up in a flowing flurry of strike-counter-counter-counter-counter-finish.

He who can defend himself with these, he should be praised, his skill rewards him well.
Thereupon we come to the right grounding That is the rollicking fighter’s art!" - J. Liechtenauer 

Many of the interpretations and translations of German terminology I used in this post are courtesy of Dr. Jeffrey L. Forgeng, Jeffrey D. Lord, Mark J. Millman and William R. Short of the Higgens Arms Museum Sword Guild. http://www.higginssword.org

[Master VorNach]

Alright, a unexpected scheduling glitch left me with some time, space, sword and my handy tablet with it's mediocre video camera.
So here is an experiment in video with some of the concepts I've been reviewing in this thread.

Having discussed the similarities between medieval longsword and the Djem So form for a while I have now created a simple demonstration of basic guard positions that (IMO) Djem So practitioners would employ to protect the 6 target zones. I must no admit that I do not yet own an Ultra Saber (sorrow! anguish!) so this was shot with one of my polypropylene longsword wasters. It doesn't glow but the contrast against the white background made for reasonable visibility.

Initially the Djem So student would progress between these various positions, becoming comfortable with transition from one to another until a smooth transition from any point to another point is achieved. Future steps will include (probably as videos in the near future) footwork combined with blade work, learning attacks and techniques that apply to the Djem So principles, learning the transitions between the guard positions with the attacks and techniques that emphasize the Djem So principles of aggression and control.

Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E

This is my first foray into solo video creation and editing so your constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated.

ps- This is an "Unlisted" YouTube video. Thanks to the generous support and assistance of Darth Nonymous I hope to have a cleaner, more elaborate version for a more public presentation.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I like it! Also you look like a younger Clay from Sons of Anarchy... Just saying, it's a good look.

[Darth Nonymous]

Nice stuff. I can't wait to see more of what you have come have come up with Friday!

What I find great about it is it is looking like a natural extension of the parrying theory of Shii-Cho. I think Djem SO fan s will benefit from it.

I also like the names; "Eye of the Krayt". Awesome.

[Master VorNach]

I like it! Also you look like a younger Clay from Sons of Anarchy... Just saying, it's a good look.

That's a new one. Usually I get compared to Chuck Norris (when I have my beard) or John Cougar Mellencamp.

I also like the names; "Eye of the Krayt". Awesome.

Well, you've set the bar (Hutt Slide, Dewback stance....) and it ties it into the setting a bit more than medieval German terminology would.
With that being said since there's so little information about possible techniques and maneuvers available I was liberal in my addition to the lexicon. Some things I'm introducing:

The Volcano, an attack concept like "Falling Avalanche" to provide some additional fighting options.

An additional set of guard positions (some of which have already been mentioned) which are also transition points between different techniques and expand on the Zone guards:

Finishing guard - a low guard and the end of a powerful downward strike.
Waiting Guard - another low guard which is the end of some of the angled strikes used to circumvent an opponents defenses.
Quiescent guard - The typical end point of the Falling Avalanche and the typical starting point for Volcano techniques. Also used to lure in the unwary.
Krayt's eye - Zone 1 High guard protecting you and threatening your opponent with Shiak techniques (stabbing.) Also the end and starting point for Zone 1 cuts from the sides.
Krayt's crest - Zone 1 guard, one of the rare techniques that is not offensive, but it is useful for setting up an opponent for a counter-attack
Krayt's claw - Zone 2 or 3 guard which also threatens with Shiak techniques
Krayt's horn  - Most used as a training transition between attacks from above & below. Also a threatening (physically and psychologically) position. Not the strongest to launch an attack from but it can give you room to maneuver.

Actual demonstrations of these will be forthcoming.

[Darth Nonymous]

Ok, this is some fine longsword tech nique and I think a very good an along for Djem So. I also like the fact that they are using the same protective gloves as we do

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk</a>

[Master Nero Attoru]

Ok, this is some fine longsword tech nique and I think a very good an along for Djem So. I also like the fact that they are using the same protective gloves as we do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk#ws

Fascinating video!  I love seeing this longsword stuff, it really makes me want to get involved in it.