The 27 pushup Jedi challenge

[Master Lucien Kane]

Sorry to say i was excited for this challenge so i could buff up, but havent done a single pushup since reading this post. Guess the pressure has me more cautious subconciously.

Lol up the anty then... 27 push ups every time you turn your lightsaber on.... Ooh am I going to do that? .... Maybe... and then a set of ten pull ups for each time I turned it on at the end of the day.

Oooh the possibilities are endless.

[Ander]

In our school, you do 5 push-ups if:

- you drop the saber (not if your opponent is using a technique to that purpose, of course)
- you enter the combat field (and you are not a combatant)
- you execute a technique in a dangerous way (even if there is no harm to the other combatant)
- when using a mostly defensive style (e.g. Shii-Cho), you and your opponent "kill" each other

Also, when we are doing the final "winner stays in, loser gets out" fight, and one of the two combatants "dies", everybody does push-ups if there is no new opponent for the winner within five seconds.

[Darth Nonymous]

We primarily do push ups as exercise though, not punishment.

[Master Rel]

If you practice with lightsabers as much as I do, then you probably drop lightsabers as much as I do.

So I started doing this when I drop my lightsaber... I do 20 standard push ups for the Lost 20, and then I do 7 diamond push ups for the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

I call out the seven forms as I get to the diamonds.

Haven't figured out what to do for Sith yet.

Hmmm, sneak up on a Jedi and stab him in the back?

 

[Kaiden Shardsbane]

I'll accept this challenge.  I'm gonna expand it to "every time I lose control of my saber" instead, because I rarely drop them.

However, it's much more common for me to hit the ground accidentally.  Or disembowel myself occasionally.

[Master VorNach]

Folks might be better off just doing their push ups and pull ups, etc. at the start and/or finish of their practice.
If you're "punishing" yourself or your students with these things some will stop dropping their sabers and then be doing less exercise.
Some people will get burned out/frustrated and we certainly don't want to drive people away from this game.
I get that it's all in good fun but if you take the time you'd be spending on pushups and use it to examine why you dropped your weapon and what you can change to avoid that in the future it might be more productive.

[Master Rel]

If you practice with lightsabers as much as I do, then you probably drop lightsabers as much as I do.

So I started doing this when I drop my lightsaber... I do 20 standard push ups for the Lost 20, and then I do 7 diamond push ups for the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

I call out the seven forms as I get to the diamonds.

Haven't figured out what to do for Sith yet.

I am pretty sure he meant this is what he does for himself...a reason to focus more and workout at the same time...I do not think he was suggesting that others be punished...it is a Marine thing...physical effort to build behavior.

[Solinus]

I am pretty sure he meant this is what he does for himself...a reason to focus more and workout at the same time...I do not think he was suggesting that others be punished...it is a Marine thing...physical effort to build behavior.

I second this. It's not just a Marine thing. I'm Army, and I do the same thing. But I do it to myself. I certainly don't make my son drop and do push ups... though... maybe I should..

Anyhow, yeah, it's definitely a military thing. It comes from the fact that when you are holding your weapon (most commonly an M16A2/M4 Carbine), if you drop it for whatever reason, you do 10 push ups. If multiple weapons were dropped, you did 10 per weapon. It's part respect to the weapon, and a mental note.

I do agree though that if we keep doing push ups whenever we drop our sabers, our arms will get more and more tired, resulting in improper forms and techniques and possibly creating bad habits.

[Darth Nonymous]

I second this. It's not just a Marine thing. I'm Army, and I do the same thing. But I do it to myself. I certainly don't make my son drop and do push ups... though... maybe I should..

Anyhow, yeah, it's definitely a military thing. It comes from the fact that when you are holding your weapon (most commonly an M16A2/M4 Carbine), if you drop it for whatever reason, you do 10 push ups. If multiple weapons were dropped, you did 10 per weapon. It's part respect to the weapon, and a mental note.

I do agree though that if we keep doing push ups whenever we drop our sabers, our arms will get more and more tired, resulting in improper forms and techniques and possibly creating bad habits.

Hate to break it to everyone, but it's not a military thing, it a guy thing. It looks like it is carried on the "Y" chromosome. Working in the fitness industry I can say without fear of contradiction that every athlete that uses a racquet or stick has told me they do this. Hockey, lacrosse, tennis, baseball, etc. all of them are represented.

We have not gotten that deep into the fitness and movement science stuff yet, but while negative reinforcement is fine and dandy, it can also have a detrimental effect if over used. The exercise being used as the punishment will then be looked at negatively. We do the stance keeping because it's like a time out. You get to think and rest.

The other thing is the push up it's self. I would estimate about 30-40% of people have a good push up (of people who do push-ups), and doing 27 bad push ups is not as good as doing one good one. In fact, there is an argument to  be made that doing 27 bad push ups is actually hurting you and not helping you.

It's a little out of the scope for this thread.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Didn't think this was going to be a hot button issue 

Okay let me address a few things... I like to do these when I drop my saber... Yes it comes from my time in the Marine Corps. If you see it as punitive training and decide not to do it, then fantastic. If you have injuries and cannot perform the exercise then don't do them. Safety is paramount.

I like it though, I'm strong so knocking out 27 pushups doesn't kill me too bad. I have wrist issues, so sometimes I have to take it slow. Once again though if it doesn't sit well with you then don't do them. I like them, and it isn't a negative thing for me.

I make it optional, most of the people I hang out with are prior military, or into any chance to exercise. So they all do it for fun, if it isn't fun for you then don't do it.


If we are dueling and I drop my saber, we finish the duel, and then while I'm on break I'll knock back my pushups. No breaking concentration, no ignoring the reasons you dropped your blade.

So this is being turned into some highly debatable exercise when it was meant to be a fun thing. On the practical side of things, the goal is to drop your lightsaber less. I frequently practice on concrete or other hard surfaces... So when I drop my lightsaber it is usually a really big dent or ding or scratch I get on my saber... If not total destruction when it comes to me.  so for me to do pushups its a reminder that next time I might be buying a new saber instead of doing a few pushups.

If it's fun and safe for you to do the pushups then enjoy the little creative bit I came up with. If it's not fun or safe for you, and you don't enjoy it. Then please PLEASE don't do them.

[Darth Nonymous]

Not a hot button issue per se.

It's just with the popularity of Cross fFt and these over the counter bang-your-head-agianst-the-wall workouts, people think a workout means you need to puke or feel like you were hit by a bus. It should be the opposite, you should feel refreshed afterward. This is front line battle for me so forgive the strong opinion. I just want the counter argument presented.

So this is being turned into some highly debatable exercise when it was meant to be a fun thing. On the practical side of things, the goal is to drop your lightsaber less.

Yes, we get it, no big deal: "I get that it's all in good fun but if you take the time you'd be spending on pushups and use it to examine why you dropped your weapon and what you can change to avoid that in the future it might be more productive." We just want to put that opinion out there.

I totally understand the rationale behind it. And like we said, in fun and all is great, but dropping your weapon may have another reason other than you not thinking about it. Especially if it happens that much. It may be that since VorNach and I are so used to teaching sword classes, ( and this is something we only deal with in younger kids or novices) it strikes us being under emphasized as a problem.  If one of my kids cannot hold his weapon and drops it all the time, we do the stance keeping thing because they can work on discipline. If they still can't ,they put it down and work on stuff without it for a while.

This is just our POV. I get your idea, that why I haven't said anything until now. But it seemed like a good time to bring some different thinking about conditioning for this sport.

[Master Lucien Kane]

/snip

and I totally get it, I do P90X and have done crossfit in the past. The best advice I got was from a Force Recon operator; he told me that training is to strengthen your body, not break it. As Marines we train hard, but if you ever reach the point of diminishing returns you need to stop and take a break. If you break yourself in training you'll be no good in battle. This has been words I live by in my workout routines, and believe me, when I work out, I work hard. However we should all know our bodies well enough to know the difference between working hard, and injuring ourselves.

I'm actually glad you brought another point of view in on this, because it gives us a middle ground to reach. I am totally into working hard and breaking a sweat. I push myself hard because I like the pain. Not everyone is like this, and not everyone should be like this. So the problem we run into is when someone says "this is the way to do it!" because there are many roads to fitness, just as their are many roads to mastering martial arts.

There are few issues in life that I take a my way or the highway stance on. While I will say that there are right and wrong answers to most direct questions, when it comes to fitness and martial arts, they are actually highly subjective, and vary from person to person. Not everyone is as flexible as Jean Claude Van Damme, and not everyone is as fast as Jet Li. We must all find our way in our fitness and martial arts journeys. Inevitably some of us will find that we are similar. Many of us will find that we take different paths. Variety in this case, is the spice of life.

[Solinus]

Like Lucien, I exercise very hard. While exercising, I leave everything I have on that gym floor. This goes for running, lifting, and practicing with my saber. But this is for me and me alone. For my son, well, we haven't exactly started a structured training regimen. Honestly, with my son, he just thinks this is cool but he isn't as into it as I am. I don't want to push him, because he may pull away. So I refrain from "punishment" for doing something wrong or dropping the saber. He does know, however, that to drop it IS bad.

Again, this is something I do for ME. I do not expect anyone else to follow my examples. But I am open to new ways of punishment. I say punishment because I can't quite think of another way to explain it. Maybe... corrective training??

I do like Master Nonymous' example of stance holding. Our stances could all use some work I think. 

[Master Bluespike74]

From a Kempo stand point, our students are required to do some form of physical exercise when they do something they know better than do.  I myself today forgot 3 of the basic moves of lower belts and I was rewarded by being asked to drop and give 25 push ups.  Sometimes it is a gentle reminder that you need to do things better while helping to build your body in a positive way.  Now if you have someone who is clearly not interested in learning, push ups won't help but asking them to sit by the side lines and face the wall is better.  This way, they don't learn the wrong way and it gives them a chance to reflect on what has been done wrong. 

I like the fact that some want to challenge themselves to be better and there is nothing wrong with that.  I don't see this as punishment but a way to build yourself and those you teach into better students of the discipline you desire to master.

[Darth Nonymous]

As you can see, it is not a military thing. It is a guy thing.


And I totally get it. This is the single most common methodology of exercise out there. Give it all you got, no pain no gain. Maximize effort and you will get more effort when you aren't maximizing. I just have lots evidence and experience that this is a very inefficient and problematic way of approaching training.  I have ample evidence that links this type of methodology with increased incidences of injury, poor performance, and bad movement mechanics.

But, I also know all the evidence in the world doesn't sway anyone. But It think we have all had and have our plateaus. to overcome them, there are far better ways.

So, I wouldn't say this stuff is subjective as much as I would say it is personal. No human has the same issue, which is why I am against one size fits all programs (and they all are, don't let the adds fool you).

Much of what we "knew" 10 years ago is wrong now. Take volume loading: the act of starting out strength training by finding a weight the person can lift a certain amount of times (10-20) and increasing the weight or the reps when that becomes easy. Sounds good. Problem, it only works for a certain % of the population. others bodies do not respond in the same way. The effect is thousands of people working out and "feeling" they have had a good workout, when all they have done is exhaust themselves and slowly injure their joints and connective tissue.

As I said, this is my profession, so I have a bit of a highhanded stance with it. I also base it in science which gives it a certain confidence.

We can all do the training where we "leave it on the floor" when we are relatively young and strong, but as we get older (like myself) we simply can't do it without risking pretty big injuries. It horrifying how many 'fit' people get multiple back surges and knee replacements before the age of 60. Arthritis and other overuse injuries common in advanced age are starting to show up in young athletes in their prime. The US military did a huge thing (which one of my mentors was a part of) examining the high incidents of debilitating back pain in veterans: the conclusion after examining the Armies training methods? Overtraining; sit ups, crunches, just making them do stuff until they drop. It was all contributing to problems after their service. They were essentially injuring our forces BEFORE combat.

Since I am doing this mainly to get inactive people active, I want to make sure everyone is safe. And since the bog target is kids, I want to make sure this information is at least floating around. One perfect rep a is more valuable then all the crappy ones ever performed.