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Author Topic: Fencing (and Makashi) concepts  (Read 30360 times)
Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2012, 03:42:58 AM »

It's good to hear you're coming along Ben!  Just let me know if you have any questions or anything, I'm trying to pass on my knowledge as best I can (though it isn't always easy via forum).

Just to help out in that regard, here is a little video I made to try and demonstrate some of the Makashi parries.  I kinda break it down to five main zones, to keep it nice and simple.  Hope it helps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws

Also, keep in mind this was made at a very early hour of the morning...

Artorius made one as well, he put it in the Soresu thread here if you're interested:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg104043#msg104043
I have been meaning to comment on this for a while. Very nice video and quality concepts for Makashi users. I have been thinking about guards a lot recently and these look like they fit in to a guard system or something like it. Are there connections between the stuff you are doing and guards? Do you use guards that much in your sport?

Again, nicely done. We need more material like this that is simple for folks to follow.
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2012, 03:57:04 AM »

I have been meaning to comment on this for a while. Very nice video and quality concepts for Makashi users. I have been thinking about guards a lot recently and these look like they fit in to a guard system or something like it. Are there connections between the stuff you are doing and guards? Do you use guards that much in your sport?

Again, nicely done. We need more material like this that is simple for folks to follow.

Thanks, Master Nonymous.  I really do try to offer what I can for instruction, so that people can pick up some basics they can work on.  It's definitely not to the level of your vids, but I'm trying to get them out as much as I can!

I hate to ask for clarification again, but what do you mean by a guard system?  The one annoying thing I find about meshing fencing and other martial arts is that despite all their similarities, the nomenclature still trips me up from time to time.  I'm working on becoming familiar with the more common terms, but every so often I need a bit of help  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2012, 04:37:49 AM »

Thanks, Master Nonymous.  I really do try to offer what I can for instruction, so that people can pick up some basics they can work on.  It's definitely not to the level of your vids, but I'm trying to get them out as much as I can!

I hate to ask for clarification again, but what do you mean by a guard system?  The one annoying thing I find about meshing fencing and other martial arts is that despite all their similarities, the nomenclature still trips me up from time to time.  I'm working on becoming familiar with the more common terms, but every so often I need a bit of help  Roll Eyes
Well, like in many historical fencing styles they set up different guards  as templates of a sort. I hope VorNach will chime in on this as this is not my main area.

Example's I know of are like Agrippa's four guards, or "wards":



They often correspond to parries and attacks but also ripostes. From what I gather they are used to varying degrees depending on the school. I was wondering if sport fencing placed a lot of emphasis on them. The video reminds me of a series of guards.
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2012, 05:27:12 AM »

What you're referring to may well be in line with the video... based on what I saw of VorNach's guards in his latest Djem So video, I think we're talking about the same thing.  I'll be interested to see if he has any input here, as I don't have as much experience in the classical fencing styles.

I will elaborate a bit on the parries themselves though.

Each zone has a corresponding parry designed to close that particular area of target off.  For instance, an attack to the head is thwarted with a parry 5 (taken from saber).  This is what I take as the "guard" concept, the closing of a section of target as opposed to the deflection of an attack in progress.  I suppose in this way it would help to differentiate - perhaps call the former a "guard" while the latter could be called a "parry."  The guard would be more useful against cutting attacks, but is rigid and therefore takes the full force of the attack.  A parry, being executed by deflecting an attack away, would be more suitable for thrusts... but would hold the advantage of not meeting the attack head on.

To emphasize (and hopefully explain more clearly) this point, I'll use a Star Wars example.  The Revenge of the Sith novelization describes in great detail the fight between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Dooku.  Once Obi-Wan is taken out of commission, Anakin allows his rage to slip somewhat, giving him the strength to overcome Dooku's careful defense.  This is described in the following quote, courtesy of Wookieepedia:

"However, despite Dooku's absolute mastery of Form II, he was still prone to one of the style's weaknesses; the lack of kinetic power. Perhaps the most notable demonstration of this was during Dooku's fateful duel with Anakin Skywalker; Dooku was simply unable to generate the necessary power to evenly match Skywalker's preferred form, Djem So. The sheer, raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power."

It's getting a bit off topic, but the point I'm making with this particular example is that in some cases it is more beneficial for the Makashi stylist to deflect strikes in order to prevent being overwhelmed.  In fact, this approach can be useful in unbalancing a more "wild" opponent, especially a less experienced one.
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2012, 08:28:44 AM »

Well, like in many historical fencing styles they set up different guards  as templates of a sort. I hope VorNach will chime in on this as this is not my main area.

What you're referring to may well be in line with the video... based on what I saw of VorNach's guards in his latest Djem So video, I think we're talking about the same thing.  I'll be interested to see if he has any input here, as I don't have as much experience in the classical fencing styles.
You rang?


I will elaborate a bit on the parries themselves though.
Each zone has a corresponding parry designed to close that particular area of target off.  For instance, an attack to the head is thwarted with a parry 5 (taken from saber).  This is what I take as the "guard" concept, the closing of a section of target as opposed to the deflection of an attack in progress.  I suppose in this way it would help to differentiate - perhaps call the former a "guard" while the latter could be called a "parry."  The guard would be more useful against cutting attacks, but is rigid and therefore takes the full force of the attack.  A parry, being executed by deflecting an attack away, would be more suitable for thrusts... but would hold the advantage of not meeting the attack head on.


I would like to expand on the ideas you are presenting Master Nero by adding some elaboration. Maybe I’m just making it more complex but I’d like to unpack the ideas a bit more. The major distinction is the guards are positions offering a sort of passive defense while parrying and blocking are actions you take when contending with an opponent. Attacks, parries and blocks will all start, finish and / or pass through one or more guard positions in the course of the encounter. They form a sort of framework to attach the various techniques of the style to.

Since I’m using some terminology a little differently than how it has been presented so far I’m going to define the nomenclature, based on my background and experience, as I go along. These may not line up with everyone else’s definitions; this is just so there are no misunderstandings in what I am referring to.

“Guard” refers to a transitory body (and weapon) position, used to protect a specific area. As Master Nero said this has the effect of closing off a target zone. Because this area is mostly blocked off it leaves open other areas, inviting the opponent to attack somewhere that you are, hopefully, using as a way to open them up for your own attack.
The protection a guard offers comes from simply being in that position. As with Master Nero’s “parry 5” example simply by holding that position downward strikes to the head and shoulders are unlikely to work, thus an opponent is unlikely to try such an attack while you are in that position.
Guard positions thus change as the relative positions between the combatants change; each person may change the distance and guard position to entice the other to either take an action or change their own guard, perhaps opening up too much in the transition. This could be an entire conversation on its own.
Guard positions also change as a result of launching attacks. Attacks are normally launched from, sometimes pass through and finish in guard positions, unless (and sometimes when) your weapon is embedded in your opponent.
An example of this is in Master Nero’s video at about 01:06. He moves from a high side cut up into position 5 from which he launches his own downward cut to his opponents head.

“Parry” is an action that prevents an incoming attack from landing, preferably without dead stopping the full force of the blow. A parry will typically pass through or finish in a guard position in the process of being performed.
Going back to the diagram below if you are in Guard position 4 and your opponent lunges or cuts to your right shoulder/pectoral area you bring your blade across towards Guard 3. As you come into that position you intersect the incoming blade, deflecting it past you or perhaps beating it out of line.

“Block” is an action that stops an incoming attack by interposing something between you and the attack; this typically results in stopping it by absorbing the full force of the hit. A block sometimes ends in one of the guard positions.
The most straightforward example is going back to the 5 position. A downward cut to your head is intercepted by raising your blade above your head, stopping the blow. Not necessarily elegant but if it’s that or the worst (and last) headache of your life do what you need to survive.

“Empty parry” is a defensive move (it could also be an “empty block”) that only defends; it does not threaten the opponent. These sometimes end in Guard positions.




…in some cases it is more beneficial for the Makashi stylist to deflect strikes in order to prevent being overwhelmed.  In fact, this approach can be useful in unbalancing a more "wild" opponent, especially a less experienced one.


Absolutely. I would further offer that it’s always beneficial to deflect an attack rather than block it, when possible. This is a step towards the idea of making all of your deflections a simultaneous attack. When you stop your opponents attack without threatening them in some fashion at the same time (the empty parry) you have given them another, free opportunity to attack you. If your defense also is an offensive or threatening technique you put yourself in a stronger position in the encounter.
The classic example of this from foil fencing occurs when an opponent lunges at the left side of your chest. You parry into 4, extending out at the same time so while you are deflecting your opponent’s blade out of line to your left, your own point is extending towards them. In effect the riposte is part of the defense.

The German longsword version of this is a downward cut starting from the high guard, traveling into the longpoint guard and hopefully at that point your opponents head. While it is targeting the opponents head your blade is between your upper target areas and the opponent’s blade. You’ll see this in most of the longsword videos that have been posted in various threads.

Alright, now that my novel here is done I’ll stop. I hope this answers the questions people had. Hopefully it generates some new ones as well.
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2012, 08:57:37 PM »

As it so happens, your novel was most interesting VorNach!  Thanks a lot for you input.

I'll see if I can discuss some of the points you brought up.

First off, I appreciate you elaborating a bit on my discussion of parries vs guards.  I began to understand the concept Master Nonymous was referring to when he brought up guard systems, and your explanation has further solidified my view of it.  In sport fencing (foil at least) there isn't as much use of a stationary guard in the way you describe, apart from the standard en garde position.  In this position, the fencer keeps his or her blade in the 6 (or 3 for saber) position, effectively closing off that target.  This of course leaves positions like 4 and 7 wide open, though 8 is partially blocked off by the sword arm, but makes defense much more manageable.

Of course, I have made some use of such concepts in epee, but in a less than orthodox way.  I realize that my style of fencing inherently gives away my background in foil, so I take full advantage of this by pretending to make standard foilist mistakes - such as keeping my blade too high.  I have actually gotten quite a few touches by readying a low parry for when an opponent takes advantage of this, and this kind of preparation aspect is what I find quite fun about epee in particular.  IMO foil and saber are a bit too fast to frequently setup situations like that, but epee definitely appears to give fencing its nickname of "physical chess."

I digress.

Absolutely. I would further offer that it’s always beneficial to deflect an attack rather than block it, when possible. This is a step towards the idea of making all of your deflections a simultaneous attack. When you stop your opponents attack without threatening them in some fashion at the same time (the empty parry) you have given them another, free opportunity to attack you. If your defense also is an offensive or threatening technique you put yourself in a stronger position in the encounter.
The classic example of this from foil fencing occurs when an opponent lunges at the left side of your chest. You parry into 4, extending out at the same time so while you are deflecting your opponent’s blade out of line to your left, your own point is extending towards them. In effect the riposte is part of the defense.

Another great topic.  This is one of the places where I see the parallels between the little bit of longsword technique I've witnessed (much of it courtesy of your videos) and the fencing experience I have.  This is something my coach used to call "opposition", where you parry with the blade angled in such a way where the opponent's target is threatened.  It's difficult to execute in foil, but if done correctly can be a great way to score a touch while keeping the opponent's point in a safe place.

Actually, I see some of the ideas you've expressed about Djem So coming forth, which makes even more sense.  As Djem So and Makashi seem to be inspired by longsword and fencing respectively, the fact that they have the same kinds of parallels makes sense to me - since it is said in universe that Djem So takes offensive aspects from Makashi.
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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2012, 04:20:18 AM »

As it so happens, your novel was most interesting VorNach!
Thank you!

Quote
In sport fencing (foil at least) there isn't as much use of a stationary guard in the way you describe, apart from the standard en garde position.  In this position, the fencer keeps his or her blade in the 6 (or 3 for saber) position, effectively closing off that target.  This of course leaves positions like 4 and 7 wide open, though 8 is partially blocked off by the sword arm, but makes defense much more manageable.
I see this is part of the distillation process which led from actual fighting styles to the development of sport fencing. As rules to control safety and scoring came about the need for the dynamic movements used in actual combat were reduced. Small, very light representative weapons, a confined area for play and (in foil and saber) limited targeting meant the full range of techniques could be pared down to only what was needed to function within the rule set.


Quote
IMO foil and saber are a bit too fast to frequently setup situations like that, but epee definitely appears to give fencing its nickname of "physical chess."
I’ve heard (and used) the phrase that foil is like chess at the speed of thought.

Quote
This is something my coach used to call "opposition", where you parry with the blade angled in such a way where the opponent's target is threatened.  It's difficult to execute in foil, but if done correctly can be a great way to score a touch while keeping the opponent's point in a safe place.
Yes, we’re talking about the same concept here. In retrospect I have found it odd that of all of the martial arts I’ve studied it was the Western longsword traditions that put emphasis on this concept of attacks are your defenses from the beginning. Pretty much everything else I’d studied up to that point left that concept as something to be studied only at advanced levels and you started of learning defense and attack as 2 separate processes.


Quote
Actually, I see some of the ideas you've expressed about Djem So coming forth, which makes even more sense.  As Djem So and Makashi seem to be inspired by longsword and fencing respectively, the fact that they have the same kinds of parallels makes sense to me - since it is said in universe that Djem So takes offensive aspects from Makashi.
I hope it becomes even more apparent when I have an opportunity to present some Djem So concepts using single handed saber techniques.
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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2012, 04:25:36 AM »

I hope it becomes even more apparent when I have an opportunity to present some Djem So concepts using single handed saber techniques.

I look forward to seeing that!  As you can probably guess by my background, single handed wielding is my preferred method... I can use two hands, but it doesn't feel as natural.  I hope to implement some Djem So ideas into my style, and from this conversation it's seeming more and more like a practical idea.
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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2012, 07:58:33 PM »

Masters Nonymous and Attoru:

I am awed by your knowledge of fencing; I have only one piece of information to offer about why the focus of the Makashi duelists is on the opponent's sword arm (in fact, that is a bit misleading).

The Jedi try not to kill unless they must. As Makashi is a form focused on precision, the strike a Makashi practitioner is attempting to land is called a sun djem[\i], which destroys an opponent's weapon without actually injuring them. As such, Form II could be envisioned almost as an extension of Form Zero, the Jedi precept of nonviolence.

A skilled opponent will be able to protect his weapon, however; if the Makashi duelist cannot destroy the weapon, he is encouraged to cut off the opponent's sword hand at the wrist (a cho mai[\i], again disarming without injuring too badly) or by stabbing him through the heart (called shiak[\i], the Jedi method of killing, as it is quick, clean, and demonstrates superior skill).

While this focus might not be the best in terms of survival - a Makashi practitioner may focus more on skill than survival. Survival is for Soresu duelists.
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2012, 09:52:26 PM »

Starswirl, welcome to the forum...and welcome to the fold...the purists here are fair to rare, most tend to lean the direction of do what they want to do rather than serve as a Jedi.

Good luck with your style/training search and practice!

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A point for you for towing the line.
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2012, 10:29:04 PM »

I suppose you can brand me as a "traditionalist" then.

(P.S. Sorry about all the italics, I apparently didn't end the italicized paragraph properly).
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2012, 03:56:45 PM »

I just want to say thanks to Nero for creating this thread. Huge help, especially to a beginning fencer like me.
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 04:35:28 PM »

I just want to say thanks to Nero for creating this thread. Huge help, especially to a beginning fencer like me.

I'm always glad to know that my little discussions help people!  I'm all about passing on whatever knowledge I have, as well as spouting my own point of view on these things... differing perspectives on these topics is what I find so fascinating about this forum.

Let me know if you have any questions, thoughts, or requests and I will be sure to address them!  I hope to put some more up here soon.
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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2012, 02:29:10 AM »

As my natural motion and mental methods lead me to a one handed style, Makashi seems to be a great way to start.

I want to thank the Masters and Vornach for content in this thread. It is going to make my training a lot easier to manage.

Knowing that a lot of the Makashi style was based off of fencing I went youtube foraging and found some videos.

some motion counter and drills in the spanish fencing style.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2_h4mn9dk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2_h4mn9dk</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gQji0K76N0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gQji0K76N0</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLEvUr9hVU4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLEvUr9hVU4</a>


it is an interesting mix of avoidance and attack, more fluid than my old Katana/bokken parry/slide style, but still super useful for creating the opportunity and saving your own hide at the same time.
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2012, 02:31:57 AM »

As my natural motion and mental methods lead me to a one handed style, Makashi seems to be a great way to start.

I want to thank the Masters and Vornach for content in this thread. It is going to make my training a lot easier to manage.

Knowing that a lot of the Makashi style was based off of fencing I went youtube foraging and found some videos.

some motion counter and drills in the spanish fencing style.


I've only relatively recently become very interested in the Spanish school of fencing (La Destreza) and I think has a lot of potential for adaptation to the games we play here. As with other historic styles we've look at adapting there's going to be some complications in not having a cross or bell guard but applications are still possible.
Here's a nice website with some good research on the style:
http://destreza.us/
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