Saber Forum

John Williams: His final gift to the Star Wars franchise. If you couldnt hear the love in this soundtrack than I pity your cold, dead heart.

Did you spot his cameo?

I did not! Where was he hiding?

In the bar that the trio go to to find the engineer to help C3P0 translate the Sith runes, he was a bartender, with metal over one eye. Very brief screen presence. I doubt many people will catch it on first viewing.

In the bar that the trio go to to find the engineer to help C3P0 translate the Sith runes, he was a bartender, with metal over one eye. Very brief screen presence. I doubt many people will catch it on first viewing.

Also I'd like to mentioned how much appreciate the cinematography of Kylo's redemption scene. Nearly shot-for-shot identical to him killing Han, but with the white background to signify his redemption. That was some excellent fusion of a set piece and symbolism.

Ray's yellow saber though

The real question I'm left with after this movie: whose saber do I get first, Rey or Leia? Leaning Rey because I believe it is a staff

I’mma just leave this here. Names of Sith Trooper detachments, Source “The Rise of Skywalker Visual Dictionary.” Detachmentsnamed after famous Sith Lords.

Ray's yellow saber though

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duIA538F04s#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duIA538F04s#[/url])

The real question I'm left with after this movie: whose saber do I get first, Rey or Leia? Leaning Rey because I believe it is a staff

Rey's new lightsaber actually looks to be made from her staff from the Force Awakens. Gives me that feel. Leia's lightsaber really looks nice to my eyes and if someone goes to make a version of that i'll really have to find a good excuse to buy one.

All in all, great film. Film critics are snoots, I have choice words for them. Ppl who complain, I mean, just seeking attention most times. Have to be the loudest voice in whatever discussion.

I've seen a lot of people complain about the healing based powers. My perspective on it is we've seen force heal in *plenty* of EU properties. It is a powerful technique but cant typically bring people back from the dead. Regarding the last scene there's two big reasons that it doesnt interfere with Anakin's fall:

1) Rey and Kylo are a Force Dyad. It is extremely likely that technique cannot be performed to that extent in normal circumstances.

2) And here's the big one - This technique killed the user. Anakin wasnt looking to sacrifice himself for padme - he wanted to bring her back for himself.

Between these two I really dont think that the essence transfer interferes with Anakin's arc (or as one particularly dramatic person i saw put it) "invalidated episodes 1-6".

Plus only a day before the movie released we had baby Yoda using this in the Mandalorian, meaning it is a well-known / intuitive technique, even if its dangerous.

Well first of,the Best healing, at least the Light side Version, could Do in Legends outside game mechanics was make stuff heal faster than normal. I.e. Letting a Set broken bone heal within a day. Which is a very far cry from healing a hole burned through someones intestines.

As for the wee little yodaling. I might be missremebering here, But that was closer to the Legends 'let the body mend itself faster' rather then the RoS's 'this would need serious medical attention to have a Chance to be survived, But lets handwave that because force'.

As for the 'dyad', unless i am completely missremebering TLJ, their 'force bond' Was something Set up and maintained by snoke. Which makes the dyad either a handwave or a retcon. Neither of which is Really that much of an explanation for any of the stuff they pull with the force in this movie. Of which imo the healing is not nearly the worst as it is an old EU Power dialed up to OP fanfic protag levels.

Kylo Ren's helmet is a metaphor for this trilogy:

The Force Awakens: "Hey I really want to be like the old Star Wars."
The Last Jedi: "Destroy this stupid thing!"
The Rise of Skywalker: "Let's see if I can somehow piece this thing back together..."

No, even in some older games it was an on-the-spot heal.

Same with baby yoda - he pushed venom/poison out of Karga's body in seconds.

The original bond was - however whether the bond caused the dyad to form  - or if Rey and Kylo had a pre-existing latent connection that was fully awakened by the bond is up for debate. Meetra Surik / Darth Traya comes to mind.

Also regarding force heal, I looked up the wiki article for the legends counterpart, and Kylo and Rey's exchange is well within the norm, surprisingly, theres even a couple instances of straight up resurrection.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_healing/Legends

Arguing Snokes "bond" is irrelevant, because the Last Jedi destroys that notion in one of the last scenes. Snoke is already dead, Rey is boarding the Falcon with the remaining survivors, and she's looking down at Kylo from wherever he was at(I forget). They were STILL bonded. How? I don't know, I don't care, if they're a Dyad, cool. Honestly, I don't need an explanation of how, what, why for everything!!! I've seen maybe 3 videos of dudes saying why they hate the Rise of Skywalker, and they'll vent for 10 minutes on what's wrong with the franchise before they start talking about the actual film...

EXPECTATIONS VS REALITY!!!

If you want to make a great film, do it yourself. It's not perfect, but it is was it is. If social media was around at the time of the original trilogy, the original 3 would have never survived!! There'd be outlash about "wait, there's retcon about Luke's father!! Why didn't Leia become a Jedi too?! Blah blah blah!!!" No one wins... You give ppl a voice, unfortunately, you get negativity.

Also Kylo and Rey can bridge their minds at will now? It was specifically stated by Snoke in TLJ that HE was the one bridging their minds.

Well good to know you only skimmed my post.
Because the way most games abstract health, wounds and healing, using them to gauge actual healing abilities is a very poor idea, which is why i explicitly excluded them.  
Which is, if comparing to Legends, either force heal as in accelerating the bodies capabilities of filtering out toxins(which it normaly just can't Do fast enough to matter for lethal ones)
Or, more likely, a delicate Application of telekineses to literaly drag the Toxin out. 

Huh, you sure you mean the article you linked to, because i couldn't find any mention of out right resurection. The closest that gets is 'back from the brink of death'.
And the Part that lines up with what they did is the explicitly darkside use of it, seeing as the Light side one only accelrates healing, where as the dark one out right repairs damage for a price by channeling emotions like Anger and pain.

Glad you can enjoy starwars as a mindless Action Flick.

I actually did thoroughly read the post and where I used games as a mention, I also brought up baby yoda specifically for the reason that we have seen heal work quickly. And no, I dont believe he used telekinesis - where would the toxin go? Only option there is out of his pores which would have been visible.

I did, in fact, mean to post this. If you scroll to the bottom there is a mention of Darth Krayt resurrecting himself with the power which is way more ludicrous than anything in TRoS imo.

As for it only being darkside here is an except from the first paragraph of the article

"Greater levels of attainment were also able to mend far more severe injuries, even major damage to flesh and bone and even going as far as to mend internal damage, such as damage to the heart, lungs, and so forth; even to the point of sustaining functions of lost organs. This was shown in a more perverse form by Darth Vader, but was properly utilized by the most skilled of Jedi."

The article states a multitude of times that even in the EU, Force Heal is a universal power capable of dramatic feats of bodily repair.

If you want to make a great film, do it yourself. It's not perfect, but it is was it is. If social media was around at the time of the original trilogy, the original 3 would have never survived!! There'd be outlash about "wait, there's retcon about Luke's father!! Why didn't Leia become a Jedi too?! Blah blah blah!!!" No one wins... You give ppl a voice, unfortunately, you get negativity.

Arguing Snokes "bond" is irrelevant, because the Last Jedi destroys that notion in one of the last scenes. Snoke is already dead, Rey is boarding the Falcon with the remaining survivors, and she's looking down at Kylo from wherever he was at(I forget). They were STILL bonded. How? I don't know, I don't care, if they're a Dyad, cool. Honestly, I don't need an explanation of how, what, why for everything!!! I've seen maybe 3 videos of dudes saying why they hate the Rise of Skywalker, and they'll vent for 10 minutes on what's wrong with the franchise before they start talking about the actual film...

EXPECTATIONS VS REALITY!!!

If you want to make a great film, do it yourself. It's not perfect, but it is was it is. If social media was around at the time of the original trilogy, the original 3 would have never survived!! There'd be outlash about "wait, there's retcon about Luke's father!! Why didn't Leia become a Jedi too?! Blah blah blah!!!" No one wins... You give ppl a voice, unfortunately, you get negativity.

Ok, here's my question for everyone:
Given that you cannot change anything already done in TFA and TLJ, and you have 2 hours to tell the story, what would your explanation of Rey have been?

Obi-Wan and Satine's grandchild? Direct clone of Palpatine with a few genetic modifications to hide her from the New Republic and Luke? Random girl picked by the Force to balance things out because, hey, she's as good as anybody else? Descendent of a random Force sensitive youngling rescued by Ahsoka and the Phoenix squad? Some weird offspring of the Daughter? Child of protoculture blasted through the Time Vortex by the explosion of the Ori fleet and rescued by John Sheridan during his first deployment on the USS Stargazer?

I'm curious to know how you would have ended the story, keeping it consistent with what's already happened in TFA and TLJ?


Personal Opinion: I know why Disney did what they did with the EU, I just wish they had decided to continue the Skywalker saga with the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. That would have had everything everyone wanted in it. Including Boba Fett  :)

The healing power just can't be justified to me. Why couldn't Obi-Wan save Qui-Gon? He was still alive right up until the end of the fight. Obi-Wan wouldn't have died if he did. Why didn't Anakin try healing his mom?

Ok, here's my question for everyone:
Given that you cannot change anything already done in TFA and TLJ, and you have 2 hours to tell the story, what would your explanation of Rey have been?

Obi-Wan and Satine's grandchild? Direct clone of Palpatine with a few genetic modifications to hide her from the New Republic and Luke? Random girl picked by the Force to balance things out because, hey, she's as good as anybody else? Descendent of a random Force sensitive youngling rescued by Ahsoka and the Phoenix squad? Some weird offspring of the Daughter? Child of protoculture blasted through the Time Vortex by the explosion of the Ori fleet and rescued by John Sheridan during his first deployment on the USS Stargazer?

I'm curious to know how you would have ended the story, keeping it consistent with what's already happened in TFA and TLJ?


Personal Opinion: I know why Disney did what they did with the EU, I just wish they had decided to continue the Skywalker saga with the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. That would have had everything everyone wanted in it. Including Boba Fett  :)

The pacing was atrocious. I understand the JJ had to effectively undo as much of TLJ as possible and then try to put some semblance of plot together. He was effectively working with a stone around his neck. But this is the garbage you get when you let directors write. Especially directors that don't get their subject matter, and try way too hard to be edgy.

The teleportation through their connection: dumb.
The dagger being inscribed with instruction to find the wayfinder: dumb.
The Goonies ripoff of aligning the thing to find an exact location without proper point of reference: dumb.
The wayfinder: dumb.
Quicksand that empties into a cave: dumb.
SDs with kill lasers: dumb. (although not entirely devoid of merit*)

Per usual the list goes on. I will admit that there were brief high points in this film, and the rate of occurrence was significantly greater than its predecessors, but they were exceptionally short lived.  

* The planet killer fleet is not an original idea, however the original concepts were far better. Basically multiple ships would be able to achieve the ends of the Deathstar.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/df/5d/63/df5d6362353d9ccb31b54d059a001d74.jpg)

And then I found this this morning:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d9/Conqueror_superlaser.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100323185310)

My beef with Death Star Destroyers is that they're too small to generate the necessary power to destroy a planet.

The healing power just can't be justified to me. Why couldn't Obi-Wan save Qui-Gon? He was still alive right up until the end of the fight. Obi-Wan wouldn't have died if he did. Why didn't Anakin try healing his mom?

I also love how they decided it was appropriate to end the Skywalker saga by killing off all the blood lineage of the Skywalkers and now we just have Rey calling herself a Skywalker. Great writing.
Can't be her own character. This whole trilogy might as well have just been a reboot at this point.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d9/Conqueror_superlaser.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100323185310)

My beef with Death Star Destroyers is that they're too small to generate the necessary power to destroy a planet.

Watch this at the 12:46 mark onwards. George Lucas confirms that Anakin was the chosen one and he DID bring balance to the force by DESTROYING himself and Palpatine. If Palpatine lived then balance was NOT achieved and this directly contradicts what the creator of Star Wars confirms in this video.

 Rey being the chosen one 2.0 is nothing but bad fanfic that  contradicts pre-established lore.

Just because Anakin balanced the Force doesn't mean it cannot go back out of balance again. Looking strictly at Snoke and Kylo, without Palpatine in the background, or even still being alive at all, Rey could be chosen one 2.0 to restore the balance that Snoke and Kylo were upsetting. I guess it would be better to phrase it as Rey being the next one chosen to bring balance back to the Force. "Chosen One" is not a unique title that can be used only once, and no one else can ever have it.

As much as I rabidly want to disagree with this, that is a very interesting point. We always did assume that the Chosen One meant a particular person and the prophecy supported that, but I suppose there is room for a wider interpretation. I still think the whole new trilogy still struggles with the issue that the Skywalker story was really supposed to end chronologically after Episode 6, but that's a conversation for another time.

This is an idea I've always had floating around but never really toyed with. So we can almost the force acts like an organism here. The Chosen One acting as a sort of "antibody" when the force gets unbalanced. Of course this aaaaaallll ties back to a canon question people have had since the prequels: what does "balance" mean here?

Is "balance" referring to a balance of even light/dark? This seems unlikely since both times we've seen the force "balanced" it involved the light side overtaking the dark. However this is debatable since both of these occasions occurred after a long reign of dark.

The other theory to balance is that it refers to the balance as more of a trapeze wire, the light "balanced" on it to prevent it from falling to the dark. This is certainly closer to the Jedi understanding, but given Luke's dialogue in TLJ "Powerful light, powerful dark." when describing the balance of the force on Ach-To I'm inclined toward the first theory.

As much as I rabidly want to disagree with this, that is a very interesting point. We always did assume that the Chosen One meant a particular person and the prophecy supported that, but I suppose there is room for a wider interpretation.

I still think the whole new trilogy still struggles with the issue that the Skywalker story was really supposed to end chronologically after Episode 6, but that's a conversation for another time.

Watch this at the 12:46 mark onwards. George Lucas confirms that Anakin was the chosen one and he DID bring balance to the force by DESTROYING himself and Palpatine. If Palpatine lived then balance was NOT achieved and this directly contradicts what the creator of Star Wars confirms in this video. I don't care about EU and books. That's the final word as far as I'm concerned.  Rey being the chosen one 2.0 is nothing but bad fanfic that  contradicts pre-established lore.

And another thing... You can not care about the EU and books all you want, the fact remains that all EU materials (prior to the sale to Disney) had to have Lucas's approve of the characters, story, etc. before publication. So like it or not, Lucas did approve the EU story of Palpatine surviving and having to be killed again. You can decide whether or not Lucas saying "yes, I approve this as canon despite the fact that it contradicts what I've said is canon" counts for anything or not. Although it's worth mentioning that the general consensus is that Lucas, while approving the EU materials, didn't always agree with it, and most likely disregarded it when writing Episodes 1-3.

Almost makes you wonder if Lucas had already conceived of "Canon" and "Legends" in his mind long before that became a point of contention with his franchise. That he probably knew that the legions of books and other material created wouldn't exactly fit into his original story but was willing to let them exist just to keep Star Wars active in the hiatus between cinematic movies. Ugh, no other franchise has these kind of issues, I feel like most of the time we're trying to dissect Lucas' brain as to the real answers in Star Wars. Maybe there does come a time when we realize that we're taking it all far too seriously, but it sure is fun to talk about.

Ummm... excuse me?  Either I don’t understand what’s going on here (entirely possible), or you’re forgetting about the Harry Potter franchise, where what’s appearing in the Fantastic Beasts movies (with the screenplays being written by JKR herself) directly contradict what has been written (again, by JKR herself) in the original seven novels and on Pottermore (again, by JKR herself, not the staff of folks currently writing for WizardingWorld).

Sorry, I’ll shut up now, and let this thread stay on topic.  Nobody, including me, wants to take this thread into a discussion of contradictions in the Potterverse.

I also love how they decided it was appropriate to end the Skywalker saga by killing off all the blood lineage of the Skywalkers and now we just have Rey calling herself a Skywalker. Great writing.
Can't be her own character. This whole trilogy might as well have just been a reboot at this point.

Technically every Skywalker after Anakin is a result of Palpatine impregnating Shmi so where its not a blood relation, the Skywalkers and Palpatines are pretty intermixed.

*Although in regards to the original concept needing multiple ships for planetary destruction, I'd bring up with Eclipse. To be fair, that ship is much larger however.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but on the whole, TFA was actually better as a movie than this was. It is making more and more sense why the Mandalorian, R1, and Solo were all better than the sequels: the Disney regime has no #$%&ing clue how the Force works. Think about it.

Rogue 1: mild use of Force from Vader and limited fringe use in Chirrut, but not the focus.
Solo: No use of the Force until Maul grabs the saber.
Mandalorian: Baby Yoda, yes, but it's limited and mostly rudimentary, but also...not the focus.

The sequels wasted way too much effort trying to be edgy with new Force abilities.
Technically the Eclipse was an SSD, and although had a significantly larger reactor, I still think it would lack the power required to take out an entire planet.

I liked it as a movie, as long as you totally forget the great novels that Disney decided to ignore.  I also didn't like that they turned the Sith Holocron into a GPS unit.  I did enjoy the lightsaber combat scenes.

I agree with the Sith Wayfinder looking like a Holocron, but I do actually think that there are two different objects. We see Sith Holocrons on Star Wars Rebels, I guess we'll have to wait and see if they are really different things or not.

I personally liked the whole “every” Jedi bit. Then again I’m familiar with all the other characters so I recognized all the voices. I didn’t hear Ezra’s voice and missed part of the credits so didn’t see if he was listed.

Kylo Ren's helmet is a metaphor for this trilogy:

The Force Awakens: "Hey I really want to be like the old Star Wars."
The Last Jedi: "Destroy this stupid thing!"
The Rise of Skywalker: "Let's see if I can somehow piece this thing back together..."

The Good:
5.  The set design of Exogal.  It was ominous, and reminded me a lot of the designs of Korriban that are seen in Jedi Academy and KOTOR.

The Bad:

1.  Ben's redemption - one good act does not undo a lifetime of atrocity.  I wanted Kylo to go down like the whiny neo-Nazi analogue he was, NOT get a redemption arc. 
2.  Rey somehow loving him/kissing him was vomitous - he intruded into her mind, violating her repeatedly across the trilogy, and yet she's somehow OK with it because he's "a good person deep down".  I might have accepted her forgiving him, but that was too much.
3.  Sidelining Rose - the official explanation that Rose was being used as an anchor for new characters to Leia and that the scenes were cut doesn't help.  Essentially, Rose helped Finn in TLJ realize that fighting the First Order was more than just one person.  Making her be "Leia's anchor" just removes her agency as a character.  Also, Finn immediately seeming to be connecting with Jannah undermines a lot of TLJ.
4.  Palpatine as the villain - much like Star Trek:  Nemesis, TROS seems to draw from elements of a more successful predecessor (Wrath of Khan in the case of Nemesis, RotJ in the case of TROS).  We didn't need Palpatine back as a villain.  We needed to move on.  Let him be dead - the First Order would have been great as a villainous group to rally against.
5.  No reaction at Kajimi getting exploded - Poe gives us no reaction to this planet (upon which he apparently spent some time) getting blown up.
6.  Zorii Bliss - what was the POINT of this character?
7.  So many opening scenes with no apparent explanation of what is going on.
8.  The ending - So, the Final Order fleet was destroyed, but the First Order base would still exist.  Much like with RotJ, there's still a remnant out there, that was powerful enough to build a giant planetkiller weapon, and kidnapped a bunch of kids, and probably has a bunch of systems under its control...
9.  No explanation of how much time has elapsed between TLJ and TROS.

I liked it as a movie, as long as you totally forget the great novels that Disney decided to ignore.  I also didn't like that they turned the Sith Holocron into a GPS unit.  I did enjoy the lightsaber combat scenes.

I agree with the Sith Wayfinder looking like a Holocron, but I do actually think that there are two different objects. We see Sith Holocrons on Star Wars Rebels, I guess we'll have to wait and see if they are really different things or not.

TL;DR
I liked it, despite it's flaws.
Most of it's flaws were a result of the fixes and answers that the fanbase needed after TLJ divided us.
Don't like the sequels? Check your expectations at the door and young up.
Any Star Wars is better than no Star Wars.

---------

Overall I liked it. It was a bit heavy on the fan service stuff, but I thought it had to be after the mess that TLJ created. Regardless of your opinions on that film, it did create a messy divide with the fanbase even more than TFA did. JJ had an impossible task, and the film had plenty of flaws, but I enjoyed it. I mean, JJ had to explain:

- Leia Poppins. How did she do that? Answer: We see her training with Luke.
- Rey's lineage. Like it or not, she most certainly had to come from an incredibly powerful line to be filled with that much raw power without training. At least that's what a big portion of the fanbase expected, demanded, and revolted at about TLJ. Even Rian Johnson hinted that Kylo could have been lying. He gave several interviews where he commented about things "being true from a certain point of view" guiding his decision to go that route, so the door was open for us to get a different answer, and JJ took it to appease the fans.
- Palpatine. I would've preferred him to stay dead, and his resurrection serves as the biggest indicator that these 3 films were not mapped out as a single story. However, in TLJ Snoke was killed off too quickly and easily, so we needed a big baddie string puller for our heroes to battle, because we didn't get that resolution. I'm sure we will get an answer as to how he survived (my money is on a clone that was resurrected with the midichlorians harvested from another Force sensitive being - maybe Baby Yoda), but for now we can simply debate.
- Holdo Maneuver. While it was really, really cool, why hasn't it been done before? What are the chances we see it again? Not good. Like 1 in 100? More like 1 in a million. So you're telling me there's a chance...
- Lightspeed Skipping. TLJ did away with light speed being an escape option, so JJ had to explain how it still was an option, otherwise space battles would become the slow speed chase we saw in TLJ. Again, though, that was something a lot of fans hated. From now on when a ship jumps to lightspeed we will know how they escaped or why they were not even pursued, "Oh, they lightspeed skipped."
- Luke's saber throw away retcon.
- Yoda's lightning tree strike needs to be supported, so Luke catches the lightsaber and raises his X-wing.

I could go on, but this much fan service made it clear that they were trying to right the ship and bring back fans that were irate over TLJ. I have some other thoughts.

Rey's Saber:
- I love the yellow color.
- A few comments earlier on in this thread discussed it, but it is not a staff. However, it is made from the end of her staff. When she is walking around the Lars homestead, you can see it attached to her hip. Looks like it's designed to be primarily a single handed dueler, which is sort of Rey's style.

Force Power Creep:
- Admittedly, I haven't read the books like Jedi Path, but are we getting a bit ridiculous? We are bordering on video game levels here, and it seems to becoming too much of a stretch. There will always need to be an extreme level of suspension of disbelief when it comes to the idea of the Force, and I have no problems with new powers being rolled out as long as they are connections, extensions, or feasible jumps of things we have seen in the past. Or if they things that are rooted in established SW canon. For example, we saw Force jumps in the OT, so why not have Force run in the PT? Sure. Makes sense. Also, we've seen the Force be able to move objects and stop them from moving, so it makes sense that a strong Force user could stop a shot from a blaster or block a saber strike. It's a logical connection. But I think this trilogy ended up taking things too far. I half expected Rey to just lift the Death Star wreckage out of the ocean, or for some random Force sensitive to stop the blast that blew up Kijimi.
- My biggest issues with the Force in this movie were Palp's fleet killing lightning power and the teleporting items (the graflex and the necklace) between Rey and Kylo/Ben. Maybe Palp's power could be explained because it was amplified by being on Exegol, but is the ability to teleport or grab something like they did with the saber and necklace have any basis on what we have as canon? I know Luke's doppelganger from TLJ does, but what about teleporting? Similarly, do we have anything to support that people can duel through visions like Rey and Kylo did while they were separated? Maybe them being a dyad will provide answers, but for now I just ever so slightly shake my head. I am genuinely asking, though.
- I prefer the Force ghosts to be passive watchers and advisers as opposed to being able to physically interact with the world. Just a preference, though, because this is a relatively new discovery of the Jedi.
- Force Heal. Fine with it, because it's not a new ability, but the whole bringing Rey back from the dead needs to be explained. It's probably another one of those dyad things, but I don't have an issue with Force heal being in the saga.

Ben's Redemption:
- I really liked it. It was a series of massive gut punches in only a few seconds. I mean, he senses his mother has passed away, his enemy delivers a killing blow and then saves his life, and then he has a vision of his father. He wants to tell him he loves him (based on Han's famous "I know" quote), but he can't get the words out without losing it. The Dark Side has left him alone and not strong enough to best Rey. It's at least plausible that he would turn back. This was Adam Driver's best scene in the whole trilogy.
- Before that, though, I thought Adam Driver did a great job and the Kylo Ren character was the best written of the entire trilogy. I also liked him after he turned. The cocky shoulder shrug after getting the saber when surrounded by the Knights of Ren - couldn't you just see Han Solo doing something like that? And his fighting style was a good mix of more precise and artistic light side flow that he didn't use before, and it ended with a very powerful flip over, grab, and stab of the last knight. To me it was a good reflection of his overall character arc.

Leia:
- Again, another impossible task to use prerecorded footage of Carrie Fisher and also allow us to say goodbye to her. It was well done, but it was also obvious that entire scenes and the resulting dialogue were built around the handful of lines they had. It wasn't always entirely smooth, but it was good.

Chewie:
- I'm glad he didn't die that way. If he does die, then he deserves a better send off than to die in a Force tug-of-war. Like Luke, Hand, and Leia, I think the fans should be given an opportunity to say goodbye on screen. That being said, because Wookiees can live for a really long time, and the reality of it being a costume, I'm fine with him (along with R2 and 3PO) being the carryovers into a new trilogy if they make one. It would work.
- He didn't need to get the medal. A nice little, but unnecessary, nod. Another fan service moment that is more about pleasing the vocal fans than anything else.

Death Star 2:
- If it was orbiting the Forest Moon, then why did the vast majority of it crash on the Ocean Moon?

Zorii Bliss:
- SW always needs a scoundrel, and she served as one. Shady backstory with shifting allegiances? Yeah, I liked her, even if she did look just a little too much like a Power Ranger.

Babu Frik:
- Yes sir may I have another?!

Wedge:
- Nice, subtle nod to the OT that worked really well. I was glad to see him flying with Lando if we couldn't get him in an X-wing.

Force Sensitive Finn (and Jannah):
- The Force Awakens now seems like an incredibly appropriate title that was hinted at by the broomstick kid from TLJ. The Force has indeed awakened in a lot of beings across the galaxy which gives us a lot of new story options going forward, because I don't think this is the last we will see of these characters. I'm ok with Finn being Force sensitive to explain why he (and Jannah) would suddenly walk away from the First Order as well as his strong bond with Rey.
- That being said, I'm not ok with Finn being Force sensitive as a way of answering the question a lot of people had, "How could Finn wield a lightsaber so well if he wasn't Force sensitive?" First off, he did have some melee weapon training as a FO stormtrooper, so he would have a working knowledge on how to block and strike with a weapon like a lightsaber. Secondly, however, he didn't wield it very well. That stormtrooper in TFA kicked his ass in only a few seconds, and so did Kylo after he stopped toying with him. Finally, you don't need to be Force sensitive to turn on and use a lightsaber. Han proved that on Hoth.

Time:
- Please stop giving us the timestamps of 16 hours, 8 hours, and so on. Let us debate if things would have taken days, weeks, months, etc. to play out. Part of fandom fun is us trying to figure out how long Luke trained with Yoda, while also figuring out how much Han, Leia, and Chewie had to endure on Bespin. Another reason to do away with this is the fact that we are not going to crisscross the galaxy in a matter of minutes, so the whole sequence of events in TLJ and TROS would need more than hours to accomplish.

Music:
- John Williams is the GOAT when it comes to movie scores. I sat there as my wife and sons stood up during the credits. They asked me if there was something at the end. I simply replied, "No. I may never get to here these songs again in a a theater, so I'm going to enjoy it."

My Overall SW Skywalker Saga Closure Thoughts:
Preface: If I get some numbers wrong here, I apologize. I'm going in with no fact checking.

Star Wars will always hold a special place in my heart (as I'm sure most of yours as well), but I think we need to realize that these movies were designed to be attractive to a younger audience, and I wish we would all remember that with each new chapter, movie, series, etc. I grew up with the OT being "my Star Wars." The Special Edition re-release happened when I was in high school, the prequels came out in my late teens to mid 20s, and the sequels came out after I became a father. My sons are currently 8 and 5. I have had a chance to experience this franchise through 3 very distinct phases of my life, and every portion feels different. My sons have seen nearly everything SW except for Episode 3, Star Wars Resistance, and a good portion of TCW series. I've had the chance to experience it through my own and my brothers' young eyes, my wife's eyes when she came to appreciate SW after marrying me, my adult eyes, and through the eyes of my young sons and their friends.

We have all been blessed with 42 years of incredible films and shows (Christmas Special doesn't count! ;) ). When it comes to 9 saga films, 5 stand alone/spinoff films, and 4 spinoff series, there will inevitably be some content that we do not like due to opinions and preferences, but most of all because we have changed over those 42 years. The fans, the creators, the technology, the characters, the actors, the world in which we live - all of us have changed.

When ROTJ came out, I loved the Ewoks, but I was also a child. When TPM came out, I thought (and still do think) that Jar Jar was one of the most annoying things I've ever seen in a movie. My sons? They love him. When I see how they react to him, it's not hard for me to picture my younger self loving Jar Jar too. The sequel trilogy? It's probably their favorite 3 movies in the franchise. These movies will be "their SW." This is what they will grow up with like I did with the OT. When they ask to watch SW, it's almost always TFA, TLJ or TPM. It is rarely Episodes 4-6, which fans my age almost always rate as the strongest part in the whole SW franchise. I doubt I'm the only SW fan/parent who experiences this. Talk to a fan born in the mid 80s to mid 90s, and they would probably rate the prequels as their favorite, because that is what they grew up with.

My point is this. It seems like those of us who dislike the sequels and "what Disney has done" are the ones who are in my boat - the fans who were around at or near the beginning of this wonderful journey and/or those who devoured and still cling to the EU content, but I think we have forgotten something. Star Wars was, and always will be made for the younger crowd, although there is usually enough adult themes that make it relevant in our grown up lives. It's no different than virtually anything else. My wife and her family love Star Trek. Her parents loved the original series and cast. She loves Next Generation. Think about your favorite genre of music. It it as good as it used to be? Probably not. Nothing is hardly ever as good as we remember it when we "discovered it."

And you know what? That's ok.

My hope is that the older fans remember what it was like when there was no new Star Wars content (outside of the books) for nearly 20 years. It sucked. You have every right to your opinion and to agree or disagree with anything and everything I've said in this novelesque post, but please realize that any Star Wars is better than no Star Wars, and try to find that young place in your heart where you can just sit back and enjoy the ride the filmmakers take us on, despite anything that may fall short of our expectations, because that is where the overwhelming majority of disappointment originates - unmet expectations.

MTFBWY. Always.

TL;DR
I liked it, despite it's flaws.
Most of it's flaws were a result of the fixes and answers that the fanbase needed after TLJ divided us.
Don't like the sequels? Check your expectations at the door and young up.
Any Star Wars is better than no Star Wars.

---------

First off, LANDEN!! Great to see you man, been too long!
Second off, I loved your breakdown and seeing your thoughts. Especially your "Closure Thoughts". I feel like you actually hit on something that is very very true.
And finally, just so I'm making sure I'm not confused with something or missing something, you said "5 stand alone/spinnoff films, I can only think of three (not counting Holiday Special), R1, Solo, and The Clone Wars. Are there others that I'm not thinking of or is this your "If I get some of the numbers wrong"?

Hey, TR. Thanks for the feedback. I sent a member a PM about a specific saber part I have my eye on. Hanging out waiting for a reply, or I'll post a new thread asking my question.

As for your question, there were a couple of Ewok movies. I count them as part of the SW family. I didn't really care for them, but they do exist as part of the story.

Well, we don't see the Wayfinder have a Guardian personality in it as we do a Holocron.  It seemed more like a piece of science blended with Sith Alchemy to create something that only a Sith could use.

I read a post where someone said that Leia had Hans medal in her hands when she “died”. That it was her projecting her last bit of energy for Ben to see Han. Which is why her body was still there. Then after she faded away Maz took Hans medal to give to Chewy.

- Palpatine. I would've preferred him to stay dead, and his resurrection serves as the biggest indicator that these 3 films were not mapped out as a single story. However, in TLJ Snoke was killed off too quickly and easily, so we needed a big baddie string puller for our heroes to battle, because we didn't get that resolution. I'm sure we will get an answer as to how he survived (my money is on a clone that was resurrected with the midichlorians harvested from another Force sensitive being - maybe Baby Yoda), but for now we can simply debate.

- Holdo Maneuver. While it was really, really cool, why hasn't it been done before? What are the chances we see it again? Not good. Like 1 in 100? More like 1 in a million. So you're telling me there's a chance...

- Lightspeed Skipping. TLJ did away with light speed being an escape option, so JJ had to explain how it still was an option, otherwise space battles would become the slow speed chase we saw in TLJ. Again, though, that was something a lot of fans hated. From now on when a ship jumps to lightspeed we will know how they escaped or why they were not even pursued, "Oh, they lightspeed skipped."

Force Power Creep:
- Admittedly, I haven't read the books like Jedi Path, but are we getting a bit ridiculous? We are bordering on video game levels here, and it seems to becoming too much of a stretch. There will always need to be an extreme level of suspension of disbelief when it comes to the idea of the Force, and I have no problems with new powers being rolled out as long as they are connections, extensions, or feasible jumps of things we have seen in the past. Or if they things that are rooted in established SW canon. For example, we saw Force jumps in the OT, so why not have Force run in the PT? Sure. Makes sense. Also, we've seen the Force be able to move objects and stop them from moving, so it makes sense that a strong Force user could stop a shot from a blaster or block a saber strike. It's a logical connection. But I think this trilogy ended up taking things too far. I half expected Rey to just lift the Death Star wreckage out of the ocean, or for some random Force sensitive to stop the blast that blew up Kijimi.
- My biggest issues with the Force in this movie were Palp's fleet killing lightning power and the teleporting items (the graflex and the necklace) between Rey and Kylo/Ben. Maybe Palp's power could be explained because it was amplified by being on Exegol, but is the ability to teleport or grab something like they did with the saber and necklace have any basis on what we have as canon? I know Luke's doppelganger from TLJ does, but what about teleporting? Similarly, do we have anything to support that people can duel through visions like Rey and Kylo did while they were separated? Maybe them being a dyad will provide answers, but for now I just ever so slightly shake my head. I am genuinely asking, though.
- I prefer the Force ghosts to be passive watchers and advisers as opposed to being able to physically interact with the world. Just a preference, though, because this is a relatively new discovery of the Jedi.
- Force Heal. Fine with it, because it's not a new ability, but the whole bringing Rey back from the dead needs to be explained. It's probably another one of those dyad things, but I don't have an issue with Force heal being in the saga.

Chewie:
- I'm glad he didn't die that way. If he does die, then he deserves a better send off than to die in a Force tug-of-war. Like Luke, Han, and Leia, I think the fans should be given an opportunity to say goodbye on screen. That being said, because Wookiees can live for a really long time, and the reality of it being a costume, I'm fine with him (along with R2 and 3PO) being the carryovers into a new trilogy if they make one. It would work.
- He didn't need to get the medal. A nice little, but unnecessary, nod. Another fan service moment that is more about pleasing the vocal fans than anything else.

Death Star 2:
- If it was orbiting the Forest Moon, then why did the vast majority of it crash on the Ocean Moon?

Zorii Bliss:
- SW always needs a scoundrel, and she served as one. Shady backstory with shifting allegiances? Yeah, I liked her, even if she did look just a little too much like a Power Ranger.

Babu Frik:
- Yes sir may I have another?!

Force Sensitive Finn (and Jannah):
- The Force Awakens now seems like an incredibly appropriate title that was hinted at by the broomstick kid from TLJ. The Force has indeed awakened in a lot of beings across the galaxy which gives us a lot of new story options going forward, because I don't think this is the last we will see of these characters. I'm ok with Finn being Force sensitive to explain why he (and Jannah) would suddenly walk away from the First Order as well as his strong bond with Rey.
- That being said, I'm not ok with Finn being Force sensitive as a way of answering the question a lot of people had, "How could Finn wield a lightsaber so well if he wasn't Force sensitive?" First off, he did have some melee weapon training as a FO stormtrooper, so he would have a working knowledge on how to block and strike with a weapon like a lightsaber. Secondly, however, he didn't wield it very well. That stormtrooper in TFA kicked his ass in only a few seconds, and so did Kylo after he stopped toying with him. Finally, you don't need to be Force sensitive to turn on and use a lightsaber. Han proved that on Hoth.

Music:
- John Williams is the GOAT when it comes to movie scores. I sat there as my wife and sons stood up during the credits. They asked me if there was something at the end. I simply replied, "No. I may never get to here these songs again in a a theater, so I'm going to enjoy it."

My Overall SW Skywalker Saga Closure Thoughts:
Preface: If I get some numbers wrong here, I apologize. I'm going in with no fact checking.

Star Wars will always hold a special place in my heart (as I'm sure most of yours as well), but I think we need to realize that these movies were designed to be attractive to a younger audience, and I wish we would all remember that with each new chapter, movie, series, etc. I grew up with the OT being "my Star Wars." The Special Edition re-release happened when I was in high school, the prequels came out in my late teens to mid 20s, and the sequels came out after I became a father. My sons are currently 8 and 5. I have had a chance to experience this franchise through 3 very distinct phases of my life, and every portion feels different. My sons have seen nearly everything SW except for Episode 3, Star Wars Resistance, and a good portion of TCW series. I've had the chance to experience it through my own and my brothers' young eyes, my wife's eyes when she came to appreciate SW after marrying me, my adult eyes, and through the eyes of my young sons and their friends.

We have all been blessed with 42 years of incredible films and shows (Christmas Special doesn't count! ;) ). When it comes to 9 saga films, 5 stand alone/spinoff films, and 4 spinoff series, there will inevitably be some content that we do not like due to opinions and preferences, but most of all because we have changed over those 42 years. The fans, the creators, the technology, the characters, the actors, the world in which we live - all of us have changed.

When ROTJ came out, I loved the Ewoks, but I was also a child. When TPM came out, I thought (and still do think) that Jar Jar was one of the most annoying things I've ever seen in a movie. My sons? They love him. When I see how they react to him, it's not hard for me to picture my younger self loving Jar Jar too. The sequel trilogy? It's probably their favorite 3 movies in the franchise. These movies will be "their SW." This is what they will grow up with like I did with the OT. When they ask to watch SW, it's almost always TFA, TLJ or TPM. It is rarely Episodes 4-6, which fans my age almost always rate as the strongest part in the whole SW franchise. I doubt I'm the only SW fan/parent who experiences this. Talk to a fan born in the mid 80s to mid 90s, and they would probably rate the prequels as their favorite, because that is what they grew up with.

My point is this. It seems like those of us who dislike the sequels and "what Disney has done" are the ones who are in my boat - the fans who were around at or near the beginning of this wonderful journey and/or those who devoured and still cling to the EU content, but I think we have forgotten something. Star Wars was, and always will be made for the younger crowd, although there is usually enough adult themes that make it relevant in our grown up lives. It's no different than virtually anything else. My wife and her family love Star Trek. Her parents loved the original series and cast. She loves Next Generation. Think about your favorite genre of music. It it as good as it used to be? Probably not. Nothing is hardly ever as good as we remember it when we "discovered it."

And you know what? That's ok.

My hope is that the older fans remember what it was like when there was no new Star Wars content (outside of the books) for nearly 20 years. It sucked. You have every right to your opinion and to agree or disagree with anything and everything I've said in this novelesque post, but please realize that any Star Wars is better than no Star Wars, and try to find that young place in your heart where you can just sit back and enjoy the ride the filmmakers take us on, despite anything that may fall short of our expectations, because that is where the overwhelming majority of disappointment originates - unmet expectations.

MTFBWY. Always.

After seeing ROS twice, I will say I liked it as a Star Wars movie just as much as I like Episode I and II. There are some killer scenes and some duds, but this is just my opinion.

The major pit fall about directing SW solely to a younger crowd: eventually they grow up and see it for what it really is. If the OT had been directed at young people, would you have treasured it as much as you got older? More so, would you have encouraged others in your family to experience it, and potentially come to love what you loved? Case in point: the Christmas special. It was horrible. IF I've ever seen it, it has long been repressed. The only people I have ever heard recommend it do so with malicious intent to twist, warp, and scar as badly as they have been by it. Another example: Power Rangers. When I was young I watched it. I liked the show original with the original quintet. I liked when the Green Meany showed up. I followed it up even to the first movie. But as I got older (and it wasn't that long of a span) I left it behind because even my taste for ridiculously campy action TV had its limits. Star Wars survived because it appealed to many ages on many levels. I mean hell, who in the English speaking world doesn't know the name Darth Vader? Disregarding major chunks of your fanbase will only spell doom for the franchise.

OK rant over. Thanks for listening.....reading.
After my second viewing, it was easier to enjoy it as a movie more. I still have serious issues with the story though. Maybe now that it's over I'll have to watch them all again and see if I can grow an actual appreciation.

Hey! I'm glad you enjoyed some aspects at least.

I personally like what they did with Rey and the force - it seemed to me it made the force a little more mystical imo; theres not set criteria or checklists to becoming strong with the force. I still appreciate that most force-users do need a lot of formal training to get a hand of it, but she's a special case, and it almost felt like the force took a more *proactive* stance with Rey's attunement. I also really agree with what you said about Star Wars being for dreamers. Its fanciful, to be sure. And maybe it just speaks to me since I'm the kid who never stopped dreaming to fly ;)

UGH! As if lightspeed tracking wasn't hacky enough, they had to do something even more ridiculous. 1) How do you jump that many times without running out of gas? 2) Moving at that speed, he should have Holdoed at least 6 times. And 3) how do you make lightspeed jumps that fast without proper calculations? Han was the best, and even he needed to consult the navi-computer.

Say what you will, but I actually liked that little a-hole.

Agreed. But I started viewing Finn's level of sensitivity to be similar to Chirrut's; enough to sense things, but not enough to control like a Jedi. What totally screwed the pooch on this concept was Jannah's story that an entire company (80-150 troops) had the same instinct at the same time. "This is pure weapons grade baloney-um." My only conceivable thought behind this was that someone in the company may have actually been a greater Force sensitive to a point of permeating the group consciousness. Similar to the way depicted in Path of Destruction, Des' (pre-Sith Darth Bane) anger in the bar spread to everyone that was there, resulting in a bar brawl of epic proportions. Granted he was sensitive enough to wield, but at that point he was yet untrained.  

Star Wars survived because it appealed to many ages on many levels. I mean hell, who in the English speaking world doesn't know the name Darth Vader? Disregarding major chunks of your fanbase will only spell doom for the franchise.

I think Knox will be shocked. ::) As I've said before, I want to like these movies, but they give so damn little to work with. And in all honesty, they could have gone undone. There was no law that said we needed a story about what happened after ROTJ.

The overall story of Rey figuring out who she is, wasn't.......horrible. It just was brutally poor in execution.

Strong in the Force is one thing. Able to effectively wield it? That's something else ;). That takes extensive learning and practice. As any skill does. I refer to one of our resident spin masters: Samhain's angel roll. He didn't just decide "I'm going to do this cool thing" and it instantly worked. He had to practice. He had to FAIL. He had to try again and again and again just to get the first success. Then he had to practice more to iron out what he did right until his muscles remembered exactly what to do every time. Now he makes it effortless. Until this movie, how many times did we get to see Rey fail? How much did we see her practice. Study? Even just learn what kinds of ability will be at her disposal? She just does all this stuff, mostly just fan service that got certain things on the screen. Like she knows how to heal through the Force, but she can't use Force speed when facing down Ren's TIE? Or why would she even have to run at all. Because it gave her a chance to strike a bunch of badass action poses? :-\ They just did way to much in too short a timeframe.

I saw the company (or what's left of it) leaving the FO as more of a mutiny. Someone comes to their senses and is able to convince a group that what they're doing is wrong and their way is better.

I agree with you 100% that SW stands the test of time far more than things like Power Rangers because it does touch on adult themes, but it also has a lot of elements that children to pre/young teens are drawn to, and it's those ages who I see becoming the die hard, lifelong fans in much greater numbers than adults who discovered the films later in life. That is why I say it has a broader appeal to a younger crowd.

TL;DR
I liked it, despite it's flaws.
Most of it's flaws were a result of the fixes and answers that the fanbase needed after TLJ divided us.
Don't like the sequels? Check your expectations at the door and young up.
Any Star Wars is better than no Star Wars.

---------

Overall I liked it. It was a bit heavy on the fan service stuff, but I thought it had to be after the mess that TLJ created. Regardless of your opinions on that film, it did create a messy divide with the fanbase even more than TFA did. JJ had an impossible task, and the film had plenty of flaws, but I enjoyed it. I mean, JJ had to explain:

- Leia Poppins. How did she do that? Answer: We see her training with Luke.
- Rey's lineage. Like it or not, she most certainly had to come from an incredibly powerful line to be filled with that much raw power without training. At least that's what a big portion of the fanbase expected, demanded, and revolted at about TLJ. Even Rian Johnson hinted that Kylo could have been lying. He gave several interviews where he commented about things "being true from a certain point of view" guiding his decision to go that route, so the door was open for us to get a different answer, and JJ took it to appease the fans.
- Palpatine. I would've preferred him to stay dead, and his resurrection serves as the biggest indicator that these 3 films were not mapped out as a single story. However, in TLJ Snoke was killed off too quickly and easily, so we needed a big baddie string puller for our heroes to battle, because we didn't get that resolution. I'm sure we will get an answer as to how he survived (my money is on a clone that was resurrected with the midichlorians harvested from another Force sensitive being - maybe Baby Yoda), but for now we can simply debate.
- Holdo Maneuver. While it was really, really cool, why hasn't it been done before? What are the chances we see it again? Not good. Like 1 in 100? More like 1 in a million. So you're telling me there's a chance...
- Lightspeed Skipping. TLJ did away with light speed being an escape option, so JJ had to explain how it still was an option, otherwise space battles would become the slow speed chase we saw in TLJ. Again, though, that was something a lot of fans hated. From now on when a ship jumps to lightspeed we will know how they escaped or why they were not even pursued, "Oh, they lightspeed skipped."
- Luke's saber throw away retcon.
- Yoda's lightning tree strike needs to be supported, so Luke catches the lightsaber and raises his X-wing.

I could go on, but this much fan service made it clear that they were trying to right the ship and bring back fans that were irate over TLJ. I have some other thoughts.

Rey's Saber:
- I love the yellow color.
- A few comments earlier on in this thread discussed it, but it is not a staff. However, it is made from the end of her staff. When she is walking around the Lars homestead, you can see it attached to her hip. Looks like it's designed to be primarily a single handed dueler, which is sort of Rey's style.

Force Power Creep:
- Admittedly, I haven't read the books like Jedi Path, but are we getting a bit ridiculous? We are bordering on video game levels here, and it seems to becoming too much of a stretch. There will always need to be an extreme level of suspension of disbelief when it comes to the idea of the Force, and I have no problems with new powers being rolled out as long as they are connections, extensions, or feasible jumps of things we have seen in the past. Or if they things that are rooted in established SW canon. For example, we saw Force jumps in the OT, so why not have Force run in the PT? Sure. Makes sense. Also, we've seen the Force be able to move objects and stop them from moving, so it makes sense that a strong Force user could stop a shot from a blaster or block a saber strike. It's a logical connection. But I think this trilogy ended up taking things too far. I half expected Rey to just lift the Death Star wreckage out of the ocean, or for some random Force sensitive to stop the blast that blew up Kijimi.
- My biggest issues with the Force in this movie were Palp's fleet killing lightning power and the teleporting items (the graflex and the necklace) between Rey and Kylo/Ben. Maybe Palp's power could be explained because it was amplified by being on Exegol, but is the ability to teleport or grab something like they did with the saber and necklace have any basis on what we have as canon? I know Luke's doppelganger from TLJ does, but what about teleporting? Similarly, do we have anything to support that people can duel through visions like Rey and Kylo did while they were separated? Maybe them being a dyad will provide answers, but for now I just ever so slightly shake my head. I am genuinely asking, though.
- I prefer the Force ghosts to be passive watchers and advisers as opposed to being able to physically interact with the world. Just a preference, though, because this is a relatively new discovery of the Jedi.
- Force Heal. Fine with it, because it's not a new ability, but the whole bringing Rey back from the dead needs to be explained. It's probably another one of those dyad things, but I don't have an issue with Force heal being in the saga.

Ben's Redemption:
- I really liked it. It was a series of massive gut punches in only a few seconds. I mean, he senses his mother has passed away, his enemy delivers a killing blow and then saves his life, and then he has a vision of his father. He wants to tell him he loves him (based on Han's famous "I know" quote), but he can't get the words out without losing it. The Dark Side has left him alone and not strong enough to best Rey. It's at least plausible that he would turn back. This was Adam Driver's best scene in the whole trilogy.
- Before that, though, I thought Adam Driver did a great job and the Kylo Ren character was the best written of the entire trilogy. I also liked him after he turned. The cocky shoulder shrug after getting the saber when surrounded by the Knights of Ren - couldn't you just see Han Solo doing something like that? And his fighting style was a good mix of more precise and artistic light side flow that he didn't use before, and it ended with a very powerful flip over, grab, and stab of the last knight. To me it was a good reflection of his overall character arc.

Leia:
- Again, another impossible task to use prerecorded footage of Carrie Fisher and also allow us to say goodbye to her. It was well done, but it was also obvious that entire scenes and the resulting dialogue were built around the handful of lines they had. It wasn't always entirely smooth, but it was good.

Chewie:
- I'm glad he didn't die that way. If he does die, then he deserves a better send off than to die in a Force tug-of-war. Like Luke, Han, and Leia, I think the fans should be given an opportunity to say goodbye on screen. That being said, because Wookiees can live for a really long time, and the reality of it being a costume, I'm fine with him (along with R2 and 3PO) being the carryovers into a new trilogy if they make one. It would work.
- He didn't need to get the medal. A nice little, but unnecessary, nod. Another fan service moment that is more about pleasing the vocal fans than anything else.

Death Star 2:
- If it was orbiting the Forest Moon, then why did the vast majority of it crash on the Ocean Moon?

Zorii Bliss:
- SW always needs a scoundrel, and she served as one. Shady backstory with shifting allegiances? Yeah, I liked her, even if she did look just a little too much like a Power Ranger.

Babu Frik:
- Yes sir may I have another?!

Wedge:
- Nice, subtle nod to the OT that worked really well. I was glad to see him flying with Lando if we couldn't get him in an X-wing.

Force Sensitive Finn (and Jannah):
- The Force Awakens now seems like an incredibly appropriate title that was hinted at by the broomstick kid from TLJ. The Force has indeed awakened in a lot of beings across the galaxy which gives us a lot of new story options going forward, because I don't think this is the last we will see of these characters. I'm ok with Finn being Force sensitive to explain why he (and Jannah) would suddenly walk away from the First Order as well as his strong bond with Rey.
- That being said, I'm not ok with Finn being Force sensitive as a way of answering the question a lot of people had, "How could Finn wield a lightsaber so well if he wasn't Force sensitive?" First off, he did have some melee weapon training as a FO stormtrooper, so he would have a working knowledge on how to block and strike with a weapon like a lightsaber. Secondly, however, he didn't wield it very well. That stormtrooper in TFA kicked his ass in only a few seconds, and so did Kylo after he stopped toying with him. Finally, you don't need to be Force sensitive to turn on and use a lightsaber. Han proved that on Hoth.

Time:
- Please stop giving us the timestamps of 16 hours, 8 hours, and so on. Let us debate if things would have taken days, weeks, months, etc. to play out. Part of fandom fun is us trying to figure out how long Luke trained with Yoda, while also figuring out how much Han, Leia, and Chewie had to endure on Bespin. Another reason to do away with this is the fact that we are not going to crisscross the galaxy in a matter of minutes, so the whole sequence of events in TLJ and TROS would need more than hours to accomplish.

Music:
- John Williams is the GOAT when it comes to movie scores. I sat there as my wife and sons stood up during the credits. They asked me if there was something at the end. I simply replied, "No. I may never get to here these songs again in a a theater, so I'm going to enjoy it."

My Overall SW Skywalker Saga Closure Thoughts:
Preface: If I get some numbers wrong here, I apologize. I'm going in with no fact checking.

Star Wars will always hold a special place in my heart (as I'm sure most of yours as well), but I think we need to realize that these movies were designed to be attractive to a younger audience, and I wish we would all remember that with each new chapter, movie, series, etc. I grew up with the OT being "my Star Wars." The Special Edition re-release happened when I was in high school, the prequels came out in my late teens to mid 20s, and the sequels came out after I became a father. My sons are currently 8 and 5. I have had a chance to experience this franchise through 3 very distinct phases of my life, and every portion feels different. My sons have seen nearly everything SW except for Episode 3, Star Wars Resistance, and a good portion of TCW series. I've had the chance to experience it through my own and my brothers' young eyes, my wife's eyes when she came to appreciate SW after marrying me, my adult eyes, and through the eyes of my young sons and their friends.

We have all been blessed with 42 years of incredible films and shows (Christmas Special doesn't count! ;) ). When it comes to 9 saga films, 5 stand alone/spinoff films, and 4 spinoff series, there will inevitably be some content that we do not like due to opinions and preferences, but most of all because we have changed over those 42 years. The fans, the creators, the technology, the characters, the actors, the world in which we live - all of us have changed.

When ROTJ came out, I loved the Ewoks, but I was also a child. When TPM came out, I thought (and still do think) that Jar Jar was one of the most annoying things I've ever seen in a movie. My sons? They love him. When I see how they react to him, it's not hard for me to picture my younger self loving Jar Jar too. The sequel trilogy? It's probably their favorite 3 movies in the franchise. These movies will be "their SW." This is what they will grow up with like I did with the OT. When they ask to watch SW, it's almost always TFA, TLJ or TPM. It is rarely Episodes 4-6, which fans my age almost always rate as the strongest part in the whole SW franchise. I doubt I'm the only SW fan/parent who experiences this. Talk to a fan born in the mid 80s to mid 90s, and they would probably rate the prequels as their favorite, because that is what they grew up with.

My point is this. It seems like those of us who dislike the sequels and "what Disney has done" are the ones who are in my boat - the fans who were around at or near the beginning of this wonderful journey and/or those who devoured and still cling to the EU content, but I think we have forgotten something. Star Wars was, and always will be made for the younger crowd, although there is usually enough adult themes that make it relevant in our grown up lives. It's no different than virtually anything else. My wife and her family love Star Trek. Her parents loved the original series and cast. She loves Next Generation. Think about your favorite genre of music. It it as good as it used to be? Probably not. Nothing is hardly ever as good as we remember it when we "discovered it."

And you know what? That's ok.

My hope is that the older fans remember what it was like when there was no new Star Wars content (outside of the books) for nearly 20 years. It sucked. You have every right to your opinion and to agree or disagree with anything and everything I've said in this novelesque post, but please realize that any Star Wars is better than no Star Wars, and try to find that young place in your heart where you can just sit back and enjoy the ride the filmmakers take us on, despite anything that may fall short of our expectations, because that is where the overwhelming majority of disappointment originates - unmet expectations.

MTFBWY. Always.

What else to say? One of the most unbiased reviews about TROS I've read so far. No overall bashing of the movies, no glorification, very nicely written. As always, you won't please everybody - I disagree with some aspects as well, but that's my thing to deal with. I would never blame someone for having a different opinion as long as the discussion takes a professional and tolerant way.

Thumbs up for you, Landen and - welcome back!! ;)

After my second viewing, it was easier to enjoy it as a movie more. I still have serious issues with the story though. Maybe now that it's over I'll have to watch them all again and see if I can grow an actual appreciation.

What I want to see........................is what bonus footage they put in from the deleted scenes on blu-ray. From what i'm finding, there's another hour plus of footage that was rejected by Disney. Most of it ideas J.J. really wanted to use.

Oh, in '77 SW no doubt attracted everyone, because no one had seen anything like it. So much of the films we see today owe a lot to the advancements people first saw in '77. We are well beyond that now, though, and they need to draw in the kids to cultivate a new generation of fans. It's like happy meals. Sure, grown ups can find something they'll eat at McDonald's, but they clearly market to kids.

Though I rarely agree with everything you say, I do respect that you are still willing to give the sequels another shot to see if you can find enough in them to make them enjoyable to you. That right there is a sign of a true Star Wars fan. We don't all have to agree on everything always, but we do want the best for our franchise, and that includes finding something good in each contribution.

I read someone that one thing my removed was a details explanation of how and why Palpatine was still alive. Apparently it was taken out because they didn’t want to distract viewers from the story. Part of me wonders if it’s linked to the Mandalorian and they didn’t want give it away yet.

A "better" shot of Rey's lightsaber

(https://i.ibb.co/0B5Rz78/Rey-with-Saber.jpg)

(https://i.etsystatic.com/6357514/d/il/ec9538/2146795973/il_340x270.2146795973_4zgh.jpg?version=0)

Still feel it's too early for main threads. ;D

Point! lol

Hux just looks so......internally screaming

I was rather disappointed by his involvement in the story. And I was exceptionally disgusted by how they built up Phasma to be the ultimate battle-hardened bitch, and a damn explosion takes her out in the last movie. Woohoo, she has a grand total of 6min of screen time in 2 movies. LAME.

He could just about someone the likes of Lucius Malfoy who as evil as they are, are still interesting characters.

The worst part about Hux is he could've been SOOOOO awesome had TLJ not made a fool of him. Even in TFA he seemd to be this loyal, evil, powerful character that we didn't know a lot about, but had the potential to be one of the greatest villains of SW. He could just about someone the likes of Lucius Malfoy who as evil as they are, are still interesting characters.

I still believe that the main loss stems from that those in charge have no interest in telling a good story; only what can be marketed.

I cannot agree more with this assessment^^

While I was generally underwhelmed with TRoS, it WAS an improvement over TLJ and had several good scenes that I enjoyed thoroughly.  But as Logos adroitly pointed out, it ultimately suffered from those in charge neither knowing what they had nor particularly caring outside of financial success.

Still: the BEST part of TRoS (as well as TLJ) is being able to hear/read disparate POVs from fellow Forum members.  Special mention to PsychoSith whose stalwart positivity reminds me why I love Star Wars so much: this Universe is FULL of great ideas, hope, and even better people  :)

Points!

I personally thought they did pretty well with the material they were left with after the disaster that was TLJ. Don’t get me wrong, almost anything that is SW I will watch and get some enjoyment out of, but they really pushed it with that one. With TRoS, I feel they really rushed in the first act to set up everything they were going to do in the second and third. I really feel they would have benefited from an Avengers Endgame strategy and given us a three hour movie to give them time and space to tell the story properly.

Like if they did a KOTOR trilogy that lasted 12-13hrs...

(https://i.imgur.com/YHa0vWk.gif)

I watched a vid last night that revealed some info I found shocking. Namely, the Rian Johnson directed Looper. I LOVED LOOPER. So how could TLJ have gone so wrong? And from what I also heard in this vid, they plan on giving RJ an entire trilogy. I'm scared. Hopefully this idea was contingent on the success of TLJ (and we all know how that turned out.)

The only thing I can see wrong with a 3hr SW movie is if it runs like TLJ, aka the most boring car chase in cinema history. I honestly wish that Hollywood would bring back the Intermission. Give patrons a break midway in 3-4hr long movie. Make them epic in both scale and execution. Tell a story worthy of the name Star Wars. Like if they did a KOTOR trilogy that lasted 12-13hrs...


(https://i.imgflip.com/82hd6.jpg)

Because I enjoyed Looper is why I was initially excited for TLJ, that died quick though after details began coming out.  There is an interview with RJ back when his first film , Brick, was coming out.  In it he states he likes making films that split people and fan bases (paraphrasing).  Which at its core I have no issue with....but (IMO) Star Wars is not the place for that.  When I get home I will find the link to the interview.

I 100% agree on the intermission being brought back.  Everyone is in a hurry to go nowhere and do nothing.

Welcome back. Don't put too much effort into it. I try not to hate people more than is necessary. ;) But I agree, SW is not the fanbase to piss off. Clearly, after the backlash of TLJ, he found out just how "toxic" we were. What I also seem to notice in this current regime is that the muck buckets in charge proclaim to be SW fans for decades, but what it really is is that they only loved the movies, they didn't love Star Wars. One who loved SW would have some semblance of what was done in the books, games, and comics, not just what they knew from the movies and bad kid shows. Like even you with your love of the newer "mystical" aspects, I would trust more to manage a canon because you LOVE Star Wars. I believe you would have spun elements that had greater balance between the old and new. Case in point: my buddy hated the whole rocket trooper bit simply because he's a huge fan of the Battlefront series. Rocket troops aren't new. So the line "They fly now?" infuriated him. And he is one of the most mellow people I think that has ever existed. I don't think I'd ever seen him pissed off. Meanwhile, I hated that scene simply because a caterpillar tread on sand will never be as frictionless as a repulsor field. And don't get me started on the stupid catapult function. But ROTJ had a speeder chase, so TROS had to have a speeder chase. GRRRR

RIGHT?!?

Thanks for the vote of confidence :P     Its what I have mentioned before, we all look at Star Wars differently.   It wasn't nostalgia for the films that kept Star Wars alive between ROTJ and TPM....it was the merchandise, video games and books.   I could and still do Understand disregarding the EU in favor of beginning over...but as usual it was the way it was done.  Mundane retreads of Storylines from the EU, open plots that went nowhere and the biggest issue....making the Expanded Material pivotal to understanding the films.  I keep up with the lore because that is my passion...I love Lore Heavy franchises (Why I love Tolkien above all...even Star Wars).  But not everyone has the time or inclination to do this.  Right now there is a Comic series entitled "The Rise of Kylo Ren".  It is 2 issues in and it begins with right after the destruction of Luke's temple.  We are introduced to 3 other of Luke's students and see a flashback of how Luke and Ben first meet the Knights of Ren...Luke kicks their a**es without breaking a sweat.  ALl this should have been in the films..but now there are going to be whole sections of the fanbase who will never get this info.  It seems there is a slight shift in trying to bring fans back.  The Mandolorian is well received, Revan is canon and Jedi Fallen Order has near perfect reviews.  But we are still at wait and see.
              To be transparent and blunt....I have not seen TROS.  Nor will I until it comes to Redbox.  But I do know the plot and what happened.  I have no doubt the acting is good as well as the set pieces, cinematography, costumes etc.... I'm sure all good.  None of these were ever the issue...Plot was.  I have lurked since I returned from my vacation seeing what others have said.  Work stress (inventory time), lifestyle changes due to a health scare on Christmas eve and other things kept me from umping back in to the convo.  But I think you said something to the effect you struggle now to find a place in the fandom...I too feel the same way. 

In it he states he likes making films that split people and fan bases (paraphrasing).  Which at its core I have no issue with....but (IMO) Star Wars is not the place for that.  When I get home I will find the link to the interview.

Um...  I mean, at the time, and without knowing what comes later...  Empire Strikes Back?  I mean, I imagine that the reveal was pretty dang shocking at the time.

Fans complained that TFA was too much nostalgia and fan-service.

Then people complained that TLJ was too different and didn't meet their expectations.

I'm not saying TROS was a good film - I don't think it was.  But TLJ challenging expectations isn't a bad thing, and I didn't think that TFA moving past the problems of the prequels (being REALLY wooden). 

Fans complained that TFA was too much nostalgia and fan-service.

Then people complained that TLJ was too different and didn't meet their expectations.
 

Um...  I mean, at the time, and without knowing what comes later...  Empire Strikes Back?  I mean, I imagine that the reveal was pretty dang shocking at the time.

Fans complained that TFA was too much nostalgia and fan-service.

Then people complained that TLJ was too different and didn't meet their expectations.

I'm not saying TROS was a good film - I don't think it was.  But TLJ challenging expectations isn't a bad thing, and I didn't think that TFA moving past the problems of the prequels (being REALLY wooden). 

I'm not as negative as Logos is on the state of things in general, and I remain positive about the future of things, but I agree with his point this film seeming to exist for merch, and just not being up to potential.

I thought the same about Infinity War - it was made for spectacle, and didn't give good character moments.

I wanted/expected better.  People had the talent to execute well, but failed to do so.

Context.    ESB was only the second Star Wars film and the fan base was still malleable.  While I wasn't alive to see it I have quite a number friends who were:  Shock, Surprise, Disbelief (in as much that Vader was lying)...these were the common feelings.  But it inspired discussion...not a Split as the new trilogy has done.  Main reason being now there wasn't just a couple of years of expectations...but over 3 decades worth.  Challenging expectations isn't a bad thing....but thats not what Rian did.  He took a crap on peoples expectations.  Again...Star Wars isn't the place for that.

The mistake here is assuming the same people made those complaints....they didn't.   

I will say that I am old fart.. I saw the original SW ANH in the theater in '77. I am a life long hardcore fan of Star Wars. I liked the prequels... so flame me if you want.

I HATED TLJ... HATED IT with a deep passion of a thousand white hot suns. Its the only one I only saw once in the theater, and that includes the release of the animated Clone Wars movie in theaters before the series started on TV. I wont get into the details, they have been debated enough in other threads enough already, Ill just say 8 movies into a 9 movie series is not the time to "change things up"

I have seen TROS 4 times now, and I enjoy it more each time I see it. It  has some issues yes. But they had to basically pretend TLJ didn't happen and fit two movies worth of plot into one movie. I actually went into it expecting to dislike or hate it, but was pleasantly surprised. I wish there would have been a much longer battle with Palpatine, but I can live with it.

Which people and what complaints are you referring to?

1. I really liked the idea that Rey was nobody special.

Those that disliked TFA because it was too much like the Originals and those that disliked TLJ because it was too different.  These are used to attempt to show Star Wars fans as fickle and not knowing what they want.  The assumption being it was the same people saying both.   

I liked TLJ better. ROS was superbly shot, acted, directed. The combat sequences were brutal. The cast came together exactly as I would have hoped for making their third film together.

Some (major) sticking points with me. All just a matter of preference:
1. I really liked the idea that Rey was nobody special.
2. I would have liked a lot more dirt/explanation of Palpatine’s whereabouts/story in the gap between ROTJ and this final reveal. It would be a tremendous Star Wars Story, and one I’d get in line to see.

The epilogue gave it an honest feeling that a saga was ending in some ways, but that the future of Skywalker had plenty of story left in it.

With Rogue One proving that there are some fantastic stories to tell besides the Skywalker saga, they can take us about anywhere from here.

I've seen this quite a bit, and while I personally don't agree, I understand why so many would think this way, and will never bash anyone for it. However, the biggest reason I don't (besides the fact that she is mega powerful), is that between TFA and TLJ, Rey had nothing that was genuinely making her struggle and grow. Abrams started to set something up with her family in TFA, but Johnson threw that away. JJ had to somehow give her an obstacle worthy of her power, and so he went back to Family. Literally the only thing at that point that could have made her think twice was finding out that she still had family, and a family that wanted to be with her at that. In that moment she didn't care if her grandfather was the worst, most evil person in the galaxy, she was excited for a brief moment to have a grandpa. That allowed her to struggle (a little bit) for almost the first time in the entire trilogy. I would have preferred her to be a Skywalker by blood, but the more I think on it, the more I see how after TLJ, this was really the only thing left that they could have done.

I do agree that (as much as I hate saying it) Chewie should've died, as that would have provided an even greater struggle at the end, but that is whatever.

Thought of the day:

(https://i.imgflip.com/wud6d.jpg)

And that's what they get for ASSuming.

1) Genetics prove nothing. Otherwise, why don't we ever hear about more siblings in the Jedi Order? Or more so, why aren't there Jedi families? And as I said earlier, in Darth Plagueis, Palpatine did not come from Force sensitive parents. But, fat chance Jar Jar would have known that when he wrote TROS. Rey is a lame Mary Sue. Plain and simple. But I won't disagree that there is a powerful theme behind this notion: one doesn't have to be special in order to do great things; that nobility is born in the heart, not the genetics of the bloodline. I believe that the idiot idea of genetic legacy is the single greatest #$%& up in human history.

Just because their parents weren't Force Sensitives doesn't mean their Grandparents weren't, or their great grandparents.  Not all Force Sensitives become Jedi/Sith and many Jedi (EU and Current Canon) left the order and had families.  But the knowing anyone from any walk of life or planet could be a Jedi has been known for a long time.  The Skywalkers were just exceptionally powerful because of Anakin being the Chosen One and Leia and Luke being his Children had the potential to carry that same strength.   

Not arguing that it couldn't happen, merely that if genetics played that strong a part in who does/doesn't get the Force, then one would think that there would be more siblings in the order. Also, it would have made cloning a sensitive far easier.

Siblings don't always share the same traits.. plus there might have been siblings in the Order...they just didn't know.

That's just 10 levels of messed up. Plus, how would they get around the eventuality of the siblings sensing the connection between them. I reference Luke figuring out that Leia was his "anonymous" sister.

Luke's power level, insight and his closeness with Leia I think is what allowed him to figure it out...but really had Yoda not gave a death bed confession it probably would have stayed a secret.

But, this sister could have been ANYONE in the galaxy, and he figures it out with relative haste. However, considering what is known about twins (identical and fraternal), their connection would have been stronger than typical siblings. But also, Leia confesses that she's somehow always known (really making that kiss all the more disturbing).

It does..chalk another one up to Lucas writing

And then it just got even worse when the cycle started aaaalllll over again in TROS. :P

(https://external-preview.redd.it/YOAXml7veyAW0UjFwb1ta0fywrYPSeQyvA1g6xBk3HI.png?auto=webp&s=7da6ccd20dd653882cc0030e7810182aeb0b315d)

And then it just got even worse when the cycle started aaaalllll over again in TROS. :P

(https://external-preview.redd.it/YOAXml7veyAW0UjFwb1ta0fywrYPSeQyvA1g6xBk3HI.png?auto=webp&s=7da6ccd20dd653882cc0030e7810182aeb0b315d)

Regarding the Rey being nobody: As nice a message as it is that "nobody" can be special, it's a much more powerful message (in my opinion) that someone descended from the dark side can CHOOSE the light.  And it's a more consistent message with the rest of SW with both Vader & Ben choosing the light in the end.

Dunno whether to laugh or cry...or both.  So Ill give you a point instead.

Regarding the Rey being nobody: As nice a message as it is that a "nobody" can be special, it's a much more powerful message (in my opinion) that someone descended from the dark side can CHOOSE the light.  And it's a more consistent message with the rest of SW with both Vader & Ben choosing the light in the end.
SW is meant to be a modern mythology and tons of Greek and Arthurian legendary heroes have special heritages.

From a story stand point a had a lot of issues with it. It’s just ROTJ all over again plus them ripping on endgame “I am all the Sith...and I am all the Jedi.”
“I am inevitable...and I am iron man!” How lazy is Disney?

From a story stand point a had a lot of issues with it. It’s just ROTJ all over again plus them ripping on endgame “I am all the Sith...and I am all the Jedi.”
“I am inevitable...and I am iron man!” How lazy is Disney?

I couldn't help myself. Right after Rey said "and I am all the Jedi", I shouted "And I am inevitable!". The whole theater laughed.

I enjoyed it, though I would have liked a bit more foreshadowing in the prior movies about Palps being back.
I don't have an issue with the "I am all the Sith/I am all the Jedi" though I agree it would have been better it they worded it differently.

Like Palpatine could have said that his power is the culmination of the rule 2 and power being magnified and pass for generations.
Then Rey could have had all the Force Ghost Jedi standing behind her Harry Potter style and once Palps body was destroyed, the Force Ghosts destroyed his spirit

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I enjoyed it, though I would have liked a bit more foreshadowing in the prior movies about Palps being back.
I don't have an issue with the "I am all the Sith/I am all the Jedi" though I agree it would have been better it they worded it differently.

Like Palpatine could have said that his power is the culmination of the rule 2 and power being magnified and pass for generations.
Then Rey could have had all the Force Ghost Jedi standing behind her Harry Potter style and once Palps body was destroyed, the Force Ghosts destroyed his spirit

But this would have only magnified the problem. If simply being "Last" meant you had the cumulative power of all your predecessors, then Luke, not Rey, should have been the ALL the Jedi.

The whole idea was dumb.

No, you misunderstand.  I am saying that due to the SITH rule of 2, Palpatine would have been the culmination of power from all previous Sith, while Rey would have just been supported by the Force Ghosts of the Jedi, but not has said "I am all the Jedi"

It would also be a good way to explain why Sith cannot be Force ghost (because the apprentice "steals" the essence of the master when they kill them, while Jedi can become force ghosts because they are selfless AND why Anakin killing Palps the first time broke that cycle by acting selfless, not as a Sith

Unless you're using this idea as a possible method to explain the idea of "kill me outta hatred, and my essence will enter your body". I can honestly say it's not the worst concept I've heard. The only foreseeable snare is, what happens if an apprentice doesn't kill out of hate. (i.e.: Darth Zannah. She didn't want to kill Bane. She had grown attached to him, like a brother, but also wanted to make sure that she had all his knowledge. So Bane initiated the duel. I felt that she wasn't prepared to kill him, so she couldn't have killed him out of hate.)

WEAK? Dude shot lightning and nearly wiped the whole good guy fleet BY HIMSELF.

Agree to disagree, it felt like SW to me (flaws and all). And much of what I suggested is supported by other canon material (not that that excuses the lack of explanation in the movie itself, I'll admit)

This is the insinuation here. Its why Palps in every circumstance urged people to give into their hate to strike him down. It would be them giving into their temptations to the dark side and allow his spirit to possess them, thus continuing the chain.

And i agree that I don't think Zannah hated him. However when Bane also ended the duel with a mental attack against Zannah, which she "won" but clearly a part of Bane lived on within her (hence the hand tremor). That part of Bane i think pushed her further into the dark and started the "chain" so to speak. It was Bane's philosophy that continued, but the first Sith to "live on" fully would be Zannah, technically.

An interesting interpretation. And may also possibly have explained why he looked worried when Windu was about to kill him.
I too am in the camp the 'part of Bane made it through to Zannah', but if I'm not mistaken, Drew admitted that Bane was completely destroyed. What I remember of Legacy of Evil is Zannah was already prepared to take up the Rule of Two when she took Cognus as her apprentice. Zannah had spent almost her entire life, up to that point, working toward the end of the Grand Plan. Plus she already had a well documented hatred of the Jedi. Highly unlikely that she would abandon the goal.

Also, the Essence Transfer in the Bane trilogy had to be enacted by the one who was moving in. If the recipient's will was too strong to be overpowered by the invading spirit, that spirit was lost to oblivion since the original body was destroyed. If this were the same thing, then Sidious wouldn't have needed to be struck down.

But I do acquiesce, this notion would be an acceptable retcon in order to "clean up" part of the inconsistencies of the OC. 

Its a minor retcon, I admit. But this small retcon in the EU books puts a lot of the movie moments in perspective. I concur with the Windu reaction, and if you'll allow me a minor tangent it could be argued that this explains some the oddities of his battle with Yoda. He was laughing and gleeful the entire time, and Yoda after falling confessed he "failed." Instead of Yoda admitting defeat due to Palpatine's power, what if he was referring to something deeper? What if Yoda "lost" because in that moment he was hateful of Sidious. Of what he had done to his order, to children. Of course Palpatine was enjoying the fight - had Yoda bested him, he would have killed him by giving into his anger.

A little out there, but i could see it as a good explanation.

As for the power demonstrated, I do buy that Palpatine was extremely physically weak prior to his power absorption. He was essentially inhabiting a corpse in that moment and could scarcely move. And with the lightning I can see it only disabling ships as every time we've seen lightning used in the movies, it wasn't used to kill. Only to cause excruciating pain, and thus I imagine he'd want the rebels to watch their deaths (IE the ground) approach with nothing they could do to stop it. Palps has historically gotten his kicks from making people feel powerless after all, and i could see that kind of power being used as an en-masse example of the suffering he wanted to employ. Thats just my take though.

Call me an old fashioned Sith (;)), but if I wanted to dishearten my enemies, I would show my full power and obliterate the ships in the air instead of letting the ground do it for me. I mean, c'mon. That, to me, sends that clearest message of how completely and utterly boned the Resistance is. They'll be hitting reverse into hyperspace like...

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/cYRQWBrPipB7aWa4dD/giphy.gif)

Regarding Yoda and those guards, they were about to attack him, so you could say he did use the force for defense.  From a certain point of view

Mind trick? Pulling weapons from hands? There were other options.

Indeed, but I think Yoda was trying to get down to business with Palps, so he didn't want the distraction.
You also have to remember that the Jedi during the Clone Wars era had kinda lost their way/were being clouded by the Darkside/their own hubris.
That's the whole reason Yoda gave up and went into exile. So when he later told Luke that "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", that is either coming from Yoda's experience and growth or there's subtext that Yoda wants to make sure Luke doesn't follow the same path as Anakin, so he's stressing being passive and clam and not succumbing to passions

Indeed, but I think Yoda was trying to get down to business with Palps, so he didn't want the distraction.
You also have to remember that the Jedi during the Clone Wars era had kinda lost their way/were being clouded by the Darkside/their own hubris.
That's the whole reason Yoda gave up and went into exile. So when he later told Luke that "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", that is either coming from Yoda's experience and growth or there's subtext that Yoda wants to make sure Luke doesn't follow the same path as Anakin, so he's stressing being passive and clam and not succumbing to passions

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Agreed, great theory and definitely some strong evidence in canon that this is the case.

-

And lets just schmoosh this together with the earlier theory.  An embittered and angry Yoda enters Palpatine's chambers, and dismissively throws his guards against the wall and knocks them out, paying his own violence no heed. Palpatine sees this, and senses Yoda's anger, his resentment, not only for the Sith but for being manipulated so well for so long. Palpatine is joyed to sense this within the Jedi Grand Master himself, his reach successfully infecting even the mightiest of Jedi. They duel, and the entire time Palpatine is gleeful. Its iron-clad; if he loses, Yoda strikes him down in anger and his spirit joins with the most powerful Jedi in centuries, ensuring the Sith's longevity. If he wins, then he has destroyed the only remaining Jedi that poses a threat to him; The Grand Master of the Order, its greatest warrior, and the Chosen One all dead or under his command. Yoda eventually escapes and realizes what he let not only himself, but his whole order sink to. He enters exile, focused not on the Jedi Order, but that principles they ideally stand for. Palpatine is irked at Yoda's escape, and quickly orders a search for him, for Yoda to run instead of finish the fight was not his plan.

Years go by and we see a Yoda that has reflected on his crimes in leading a war; a force of death and destruction. His faults that lead to the death of not only his own order, but very nearly his sense of self, and what it means to be a Jedi. This Yoda urges Luke:

"A Jedi does not attack."


BONUS ROUND: This ALSO means that Luke's exile in TLJ has a beautiful symmetry. Luke, in his own hubris believed he could stop another fall - another failure of the Jedi: By attacking. And it cost him everything. Luke then exiles himself as Yoda did, to reflect on his failures, but with one crucial difference: Yoda reflected on the principles of the Jedi, where Luke reflected instead on the Jedi Texts, their structure and institution. Of course Luke comes to the conclusion by studying their texts and not the heart of their teachings, that the Jedi were destined to fail. Egotistical wizards who thought they could control the galaxy. Luke sinks further into his depression, until Yoda himself has to teach Luke what he learned in his Exile: the teachings of long-winded Jedi dont matter. Luke's failure, like his own, was a teacher. But Luke learnt the wrong lesson. Yoda shows him that it is compassion at the heart of a Jedi, not emotional celibacy.

AND HOW DOES LUKE TAKE THIS LESSON IN HIS FINAL ACT?

He does not attack. He uses the Force for knowledge and defense, for not even his illusion attacks once. And this gives the last hope of the Jedi, the chance she needed.

And since this *is* a TRoS thread, I'll also throw this in for what its worth.

Rey did not defeat Palpatine with an attack, but a defensive stance that resulted in Palpatine destroying himself. The final attack of the Sith was, fittingly, their undoing.

Ok this went from pretty good idea to OMG I can't believe you brought that garbage up.

Like it or hate it, it fits.

I like theory crafting and do still enjoy the new movies mind you  ;)

One of the things I like about SW as a whole, whether you like a particular movie or not, is that it doesn't take much imagination to make ALL OF IT fit.
Whether you liked the execution of a particular story element, or if we can all agree that when there is a better way they could have done it, nothing it TRULY unfeasible.  RoS is no different.  I would have liked all 3 sequel movies to have had a plan, but it all makes *enough* sense to not be too distracting from the good vs evil pew-pew, woosh-clash fest that is Star Wars.

If I can easily make up a "head-canon" to explain something off, it's good enough.

Like it or hate it, it fits.

I like theory crafting and do still enjoy the new movies mind you  ;)

^ This!! We all respect different opinions, and everybody has the right to think different of the movies.
Like I said, it's my opinion, and you can agree or disagree. I'm fine with that - as long as it's a discussion with objective arguments. However, I do not accept things like "Well, it's the PT/ST" or "The PT has Jar Jar" or such things.

^ This!! We all respect different opinions, and everybody has the right to think different of the movies. I wrote that in another thread: It's Star Wars, it doesn't necessarily need to fit our logic. It's science-fiction, which normally follows its own logic. Personally, I like how they did the new movies. Yes, there are parts that could have been done better, and yes, much of its potential went unappreciated, but bashing the whole trilogy just for some mistakes that have been made? Or because it shows something that hasn't been explained in detail before? That's a bit over the top (actually, that's what I think about the bashing of the PT as well). There were many things in the OT that weren't explained either! Example: the use of the Force. Luke Force Pulls his saber into his hand in that Wampa cave in Ep IV. No one ever  explained where and when he learned that. Was it through Obi-Wan's spirit? His papers on Tatooine? Does anyone critizise that? No. So why do we do that with the PT and ST?

Like I said, it's my opinion, and you can agree or disagree. I'm fine with that - as long as it's a discussion with objective arguments. However, I do not accept things like "Well, it's the PT/ST" or "The PT has Jar Jar" or such things.

And we must not forget: although we all like Star Wars (be it old canon, new canon, the EU), and we all have our own ideas how to make this or that - those who actually write, direct, act, may have different ideas and different way to get that on screen, paper or into games. We have to accept that. But to abandon the whole universe just because it doesn't match our own imagination of the Star Wars world...I think that's the wrong way.

My 2c on this...over and out and MTFBY ;)

I'm sorry, even with Jar Jar, the prequels were better.

Observe

[url]http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=11019.msg746062#msg746062[/url] ([url]http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=11019.msg746062#msg746062[/url])

Hard disagree there, personally. I like every episodic film on some level except II. It was my "TLJ" so to speak. But I also recognize a lot of people are just now beginning to appreciate the prequels more, which is fine; I'm glad they're enjoying something I personally struggle to.

I know, I didn't mean to say you did that ;) But I've read other comments that were mostly based around him making the trilogy appear ridiculous just because of his appearance, which I found a bit too much. He was a part of it - often a funny, sometimes an annoying part.

But we forget one thing: he might've been annoying in Ep I, but he then played a pivotal role in Ep II, more or less leading the galaxy into war with his speech in the Senate regarding Palpatine giving emergency powers...that wasn't funny, nor annyoing, it was a critical part of the story determining the future of the Republic and the whole galaxy.

First, I didn’t mean to suggest that I felt that my opinion was being attacked.  In the words of Lady Jessica Atreides, you cut a loose garment, and I claimed it fit me perfectly.

Second, no matter how necessary his speech in the Senate was to the plot, I still find him, his speech patterns, and his behavior patterns to be incredibly annoying.  Lucas could easily have had a non-annoying character fill Jar-Jar’s place, simply by having the character speak Galactic Standard without that ***-awful “me-sa, you-sa, red-sa, blue-sa” nonsense, and making the voice a bit lower on the scale, instead of being that high-pitched, grating whine.  With those changes, I could easily have enjoyed the rest of the character.

There's a reason for this trend.

Pop Quiz:

What, in your own words, is the over plot of episodes II and VIII?

Jumping back for a second to the "Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack" thing, I believe it was somewhere in the Jedi Apprentice series (though I may be wrong), it talks about how the Jedi should never initiate the fight. Never be the first to make the first move. That is for the opponent (Sith). As soon as your opponent tries to do something, you are free to defend yourself in any means necessary. This includes a strong offense. However, as a Jedi, you should never be the first to attack. In that Yoda vs. Red Guards scene, they clearly acted in aggression first, to which Yoda did not kill them, but took them out of the picture instantly so he could immediately face the greater threat without distraction.

Second, no matter how necessary his speech in the Senate was to the plot, I still find him, his speech patterns, and his behavior patterns to be incredibly annoying.  Lucas could easily have had a non-annoying character fill Jar-Jar’s place, simply by having the character speak Galactic Standard without that ***-awful “me-sa, you-sa, red-sa, blue-sa” nonsense, and making the voice a bit lower on the scale, instead of being that high-pitched, grating whine.  With those changes, I could easily have enjoyed the rest of the character.

Anyway, I like the movies, be it PT, OT or ST ^^ Okay, VIII was *odd* in some points, I agree on that, but I wouldn't say it was bad just because of that. All movies had some odd points, but none of them were critical enough to spoil the whole movie - at least for me ;)

I think that there's the difference. You want to use the power as a deterrent. To say "you cant fight me, don't even try". I think Palpatine is more a long the lines of straight sadism. He wants them to fight him, so he can demonstrate in their last moments of life that they didnt have a chance. Its a cruel logic, but within his character i think.

Here's always been my thing.... why did Jar Jar have to be an idiot?  We see the Gungans as a whole were not stupid and in fact a proud Warrior Race.  If you'll allow the indulgence, here's how I would have had his character.  Instead of him hindering Qui-Gon in his initial appearance he actually aids him by ambushing some droids from the water...but goes a bit overboard with their destruction.  You find out he is exiled because he disobeyed orders by refusing to attack a couple of Naboo people fishing to close to Gungan waters.  The rest of the film would barely be altered by this I believe.  Through the story you the main take away is his quick to fight mentality.  Fast Forward to Ep. II he has been made a representative and voices to Anakin his displeasure at not being able to do much more than talk...something Anakin can very much relate to.
Once he has Padme's Vote in the Senate his eagerness and willingness to fight could just as easily be manipulated by Palpatine.

But episode II my issues arent the plot. My issue is we spend 50% of the time chronicling one of the single most awkward and creepy romance ever put to the screen combined with legendarily bad dialogue, suffering from major pacing whiplash from the pacing of jumping from frolicking in a field to fighting a jetpack ninja in no-time, a (in the context of the film) flimsy villain who deserved more backstory, seeing bizarre CGI choices that looked horrifically out of place, the fact we have to see Yoda; a cerebral, wise, mentor character, doing ninja flips and hopping everywhere like a small child on sugar in a lightsaber fight. And I'm sorry but Ewan McGregor and Sir Christopher Lee cant make up for every other actor in this movie not understanding how human(/alien?) emotion works. And Christopher Lee was such a waste of potential on Dooku, a character who was criminally underused.

I try not to rant about these movies much and please dont let my opnion affect anyone's enjoyment of AotC. I just really did not like it and I struggle with people saying "but its so much better than the sequels." Might be I just look for different things in movies, but at least I can believe the cast of TRoS are real people  :-\

The plot was quite good, I'll be the first to admit: a civil war igniting after the republic gains access to a large army of clones taken from an untrustworthy source all being orchestrated by Palpatine whilst chronicling the downfall of the Chosen One himself as the future emperor pulls the strings? Great concept! And i personally enjoy episode III a good bit.

Now what about the plot of TLJ?

A-ha, and here we approach my point as well.

TLJ has a simplistic plot; The Resistance on the run from a First Order that (logically) spun its still enormous naval power around on the rebels to wipe them out fully in retaliation for SKB. The FO tracks them down, and the Resistance needs to eliminate the tracker. Finn and Rose attempt to sort this whilst Admiral Holdo attempts to formulate an escape option that doesnt rely on hyperspace.

Meanwhile Rey convinces an old and embittered Luke to train her if nothing else to prove the Jedi wrong. Rey discovers her connection to Kylo and leaves to confront him.

This all comes to a head when Kylo kills Snoke, attempts to turn Rey, and Finn and Rose are captured. Holdo does her thing to cover the rebel escape, everyone makes it to Crait and are able to slip away while Luke uses Kylo's rage to distract him.

I went into more detail here than in my description of TCW simply because TCW you could go on for hours with how convoluted it gets. TLJ has a simpler plot but Star Wars movies dont need a complex plot to work - A New Hope taught us this. TLJ certainly does have its issues - questionable pacing, a bad side-quest B plot, and it ripped the fandom apart with its controversial portrayal of Luke.

However, what I can give this movie that I cant extend to AotC is that The dialogue and acting was good. Adam Driver delivers as he does throughout the new trilogy, and Rey effectively conveys the "confused apprentice" vibes. Mark Hamill, (whether you like the character decisions or not) absolutely rocks his role. Poe goes through a fitting character arc where he actually grows beyond an explosive obsessed frat boy. Finn's arc was admittedly rehashed, but John Boyega nonetheless did his due diligence and made it believable, even if we would have liked to see more growth. The only truly bad dialogue for me came from Rose, and her acting was fine, the writing limited what her actress could do. TLJ also had (and I'll fight people on this) the best visuals of the whole franchise. Color and lighting was used to terrific effect here. I can always enjoy watching TLJ, which is just something I cant say for AotC. Not to say people who dislike TLJ are wrong, but I do think it should be given more credit.

To sum-up: The world's most boring cinematic car chase. Rey still got no training. A romance that wasn't better than Twilight. The premature death of the big bad. A bunch of failed escape attempts resulting in the absolute decimation of the Resistance.

So you're saying that TLJ was a $#!% story wrapped up in all the hallmarks of good film making and this makes it more tolerable than ATC?

This movie fell apart for me in the first 5min. If you're going to wipe the Resistance out, why....WHY do you even let a ship approach, let alone answer his call and take his $#!% instead of immediately BLOWING HIM INTO DETRITUS?

Officer - "Sir, ship approching."
Hux - "Destroy it."
[Poe gets shot down]


Written and directed by George Lucas meme.

The prequels may have been poorly directed, but they told a story that went far beyond the main character......   Holy crap, I think I just solved it. The sequels sucked because Rey is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a girl finding her place in the galaxy and dealing with it. <zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz>

You want Jar Jar fixed? Read the Shakespeare's Star Wars books by Ian Doescher.

(https://filmtrooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/shakespeare_star_wars_prequels.png)

I never said it was a bad story. I said I get why people didnt like it. Personally, for me TLJ wasnt about the chase - its was about the formation of Kylo and Rey's connection which becomes one of the largest story beats in TRoS. But to handle some of the more specific points

-Of course the FO doesn't immediately shoot Poe down, both the FO and Empire have a long and storied history of arrogance - especially when it comes to a single light fighter. Hux's curiosity and arrogance got the best of him and they paid with a Dreadnought.

-Rey's lack of training also becomes important. Her "raw power" as Luke put it carried her through quite a bit, and the training she gleaned from Kylo's mind only amplified that, this movie wasnt about making Rey the next Luke (that was more TRoS territory), this movie was about Rey as you put it - finding out who she is, for herself. Not who she's related to, but who she herself is. This is why she has to make the judgment call with Kylo. She truly could have turned her back on the resistance, she didnt owe them much truthfully; it was a moment that galvanized her as a good person, as a Jedi at heart.

-There wasnt a premature death of a BBEG, because Snoke wasnt the BBEG. The story had even in the last movie, neglected expanding on Snoke in favor of giving Kylo more depth. And depth he received in spades.

-I couldve done without the Rose/Finn B plot. I saw a pretty good video on it where the reviewer suggested instead of Rose teaching Finn the horrors of war (I mean Finn should know this already tbh - child soldier after all), it should have been Finn teaching Poe the horrors of war. Would make for an interesting alternate take, but by no means does the Rose/Finn stuff ruin the other 85% of the movie for me.

Im saying TLJ was an average, if highly different SW movie. A good movie, not great, but not bad.

EDIT: and just to poke a little fun (obviously not my 100% authentic thoughts just got a chuckle from the idea):

The prequels sucked because Anakin is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a boy finding his place in the galaxy and not dealing with it.

The OT sucked because Luke is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a boy finding his place in the galaxy and dealing with it.

The prequels may have been poorly directed, but they told a story that went far beyond the main character......   Holy crap, I think I just solved it. The sequels sucked because Rey is the only real story point.

It was made moot by the sequel. Snoke said he was responsible for the "connection", Palps said it was a rarity, implied as something that happens naturally through the Force.
Yeah.....no.
Ok. Let's put a teenager with a fresh license in an Indy car and see how far raw power and no training gets them. -_- Also, same thing applies to knowledge without practice. Simply watching a boxing match let's me know how to throw a punch, but doesn't mean I'll instantly be able to contend with a heavy weight champ. Anakin had the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi in history, implying that he was more powerful, and yet, he was defeated by a "lesser" opponent with greater skill. Also, who she was related to was an after thought.
Snoke was a mystery guest on the holo. I honestly thought he would be the size of Maz; small but powerful. Then he turns out to be normal sized and just butt ugly. What's his beef with the Jedi and the Republic? Who knows, he's dead. Why does he come out of hiding to chase down a handful of Resistance ships? Who knows, he's dead. How did he find Ren and the other members of the emo boy band? Who knows, he's dead. How is he that powerful in the DS and not Sith? Who knows, HE'S DEAD. Keep in mind that Sidious creating Snoke is a retcon
In the first 2 trilogies, we already knew who was pulling the strings. In the OT, he was Emperor. Doesn't need much explanation. In the PT, he's merely a Sith Master plotting to become the unchallenged authority in the galaxy (aka: Emperor). But who the hell was Snoke in TFA and TLJ?

As for Kyle's so-called "depth": "I wanna kill my parents to grow stronger in the Dark Side. (zzzzzzzzzzzz) I wanna hook up with this cute hunnie that also happens to be strong in the Force, then I can ditch this ugly ass old.....whatever he is. The most that was really done with the character was in TROS. Now, don't get me wrong, Adam's performance was great, but the story of the character was what failed. "I'm all evil, cuz my lame uncle tried to kill me and whatever. Now I'm going to throw away every good thing in the galaxy so I can be even more bad-guy evil and do really mean things." I mean, seriously, the only aspect they got right with the character in TLJ is that he's nothing more than a whipped dog.
Everyone and their dead great grandmother could have done without B plot. When the hell does Rose teach Finn anything? Also....don't you mean child janitor? You're partly right,....the other 50% of the movie. They put way too much focus on Finn and Rose, but hey...we have to copy the budding romance of Han and Leia. :-\
I won't deny that this trilogy was well filmed. I'd have given a nut to the cause, had the prequels been filmed that well. BUT, per usual, the prequels were George doing George: pushing the edge of what's possible. When was a time before Ep.I that most of the film was shot on a green screen sound stage, requiring actors that could consistently interact with things that weren't there? I can't remember one, so I'll welcome a memory jog.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VillainousThreadbareBrahmanbull-size_restricted.gif)
Doesn't really deal with it, that's why he secretly marries, and ends up becoming instrumental in the destruction of the Jedi and the fall of the Republic, and becomes a Sith Lord. (Living the good life.)
The prequels sucked because a) George is a horrible director, and b) an even worse romance writer. But screw it, we got podracing out of 'em. ;D ;D ;D
YOU TAKE IT BACK! YOU TAKE IT BACK RIGHT NOW!  :P

The OT was really about Luke dealing with his dad (So let's copy it, but not too much, so we'll make it grandpa), the Rebels struggle against a fascist Empire, and the budding romance of Han and Leia.

100% This ^. Case closed in my opinion.
That is EXACTLY what fails the most about the ST: No meaningful connections between characters aside from last names.   

They should have called the trilogy, REY: a SOLO story, Chapters 1,2 and3.

i used to defend and like TFA and TLJ, but I can't deal with where they ended up. I don't know why I had any hope that they could fix what I eventually saw was so wrong with TLJ.
I rarely weigh in on these topics despite reading every bit of them. Thank you guys for providing insight and entertainment while remaining civil.
 

Rey is the main character. And even if you didnt like the conclusion of the trilogy I'd argue that shouldnt interrupt your opinion of the previous two. I'd also argue there's a *massively* important connection between Rey and Kylo. That is kind of a huge part of the trilogy. As well as good character connections between Kylo and Luke, as their interaction at the end of TLJ was fairly emblematic for how the Jedi act on Luke's part.

I will probably watch TFA, TLJ AND TRoS another hundred or so times each... just to be sure. :-\

- I do believe Snoke believed he caused their connection, and I'll go so far as to say he even strengthened it and awakened some of the latent potential present.

- Darth Vader himself tried to 1v1 Luke during the battle of Yavin instead of letting the AAA take care of things and the whole Death Star got destroyed because of it. The Imperials and FO have always treated individual fighters as harmless to a capital ship.

- But a fight is much different than racing. A novice can beat a professional in the heat of a chaotic moment since you cant control extraneous factors. Case-in-point, Kylo's grievous injury during that fight. You try taking a magnum round to the gut and then engaging in a swordfight (x2) and seeing how that goes. More than that, Rey's lack of training does bite her later in TRoS: without Leia connecting to Kylo's mind, he had Rey dead to rights: what happens when the trained fighter fights the untrained fighter on even ground. I'm also not convinced her lineage was an afterthought, JJ would not have set her parentage up the way he did in TFA unless he had a good idea of where his "headcanon" went. Happened to be that he got the opportunity to direct the last movie and bring that to fruition.

- Snoke had just as much explanation in TLJ than Palps did in ESB. He was the evil ruler of the galaxy - where did he come from? Who knows, never explained. We had to get a whole trilogy to explain Palpatine's origins. But even with that Kylo has more development than Palpatine - or *any* movie villain! Dont believe me? To wit; the motives of all major SW movie villains as explained by the movies they appear in:

-Palpatine: EEEVIIIIIIIL

-Dooku: Doesnt like the Jedi - who knows why.

-Grievous: Idk I get pretty mad during an asthma attack too, I guess.

-Vader: Was told the dark side could save his wife. It didnt. (to be 100% fair he also did butt heads with the Jedi council a lot; Vader has okay reasoning if we ignore the shark-jump of "my wife might die time to kill some kids")

-Snoke: EEEVIIIIIIL *now with 50% less calories*

-Kylo Ren: Was set-up to be the next coming of a Jedi he never met, was betrayed by his Uncle (who was a legendary Jedi in his own right), and had a powerful Dark Sider whispering into his head as a child.

Rey is the main character. And even if you didnt like the conclusion of the trilogy I'd argue that shouldnt interrupt your opinion of the previous two. I'd also argue there's a *massively* important connection between Rey and Kylo. That is kind of a huge part of the trilogy. As well as good character connections between Kylo and Luke, as their interaction at the end of TLJ was fairly emblematic for how the Jedi act on Luke's part.

Palps didn't need explanation in ESB. He was the corrupt evil ruler of the Galaxy. Simple yet effective. Kyle has about as much development as Anakin and Vader.
Pretty much, but you have to remember when the character was written. Back then, 2D was good enough. However, the character's motives were fleshed out better over time.
Dooku was a political idealist. He had grown weary of the corruption and bureaucracy, so when Sidious offered him a chance to make a better system, he took it. I think this is the reason I always liked Dooku as a villain: he actually did want to make the galaxy a better place.
What I've gleaned of Grievous is that he sought to be the ultimate warrior. In his quest for power through augmentation, he allowed his will to be stripped. Look up in the visual dictionary; he has cybernetic implants that actually allow him to be controlled.
To be fair, when you eliminate an opposing ideology, you don't want survivors seeking revenge. Vader was more truly lost than evil. This was further explained in the PT. He sacrificed everything he had to protect his woman, then ends up killing her via broken heart. But as was established in Ep. 2, Anakin didn't trust the system. Solution: TELL people how things are going to be, and MAKE them agree.
Points for that. But you're not wrong. He's a ripoff of the Emperor, but he required more explanation. He wasn't the "heir to the Empire" ;), he wasn't an authority of any kind. So where did he come from and why is he established?
As much as I hate to admit, and despite being a pale shadow of Darth Caedus, Ren for the most part had his own original agenda. He was powerful and arrogant, and felt entitled. Where Luke feared what would become of this, Snoke nurtured and manipulated it. As time progressed, Ren felt that his only option was to stay on his dark path.

As I said, those were the motives as the movies themselves explained. Cut out all the secondary content and there's really only two 3-dimensional villains of the main saga; Kylo and Vader. Including secondary content however, yes many of these character did indeed get the depth they deserved.

Dooku is especially apparent in this: in TCW he was, as you said, a political idealist but also still locked in the mindset of a noble: I distinctly remember the episode where he used a farming village for weapons testing, right after an episode with him speaking publicly on the Confederacy and I think thats just brilliant character building. One episode he's preaching how the confederacy is this utopia beyond the corruption of the Republic, and the next he shows downright contempt for anyone not willing/able to throw political or monetary backing his way. Such a conceited slimeball that really does believe in the message he's preaching, but also that the weak and poor are nothing but fodder. For comparison, you have movie Dooku who feels like like a cardboard cutout of the TCW version, despite Sir Christopher Lee's best efforts to make him interesting. Makes me angry everytime I see the movies they wasted an actor of his caliber on such a lame villain, to only turn around and give him actual depth without Lee heading the role.

Kyle: "I can't go back."
Rey: "OMG I'm totes going to fix you and bring you back to the light."

As if THAT hasn't already been played out 35 years ago. ::)

- But a fight is much different than racing. A novice can beat a professional in the heat of a chaotic moment since you cant control extraneous factors. Case-in-point, Kylo's grievous injury during that fight. You try taking a magnum round to the gut and then engaging in a swordfight (x2) and seeing how that goes. More than that, Rey's lack of training does bite her later in TRoS: without Leia connecting to Kylo's mind, he had Rey dead to rights: what happens when the trained fighter fights the untrained fighter on even ground. I'm also not convinced her lineage was an afterthought, JJ would not have set her parentage up the way he did in TFA unless he had a good idea of where his "headcanon" went. Happened to be that he got the opportunity to direct the last movie and bring that to fruition.

- Snoke had just as much explanation in TLJ than Palps did in ESB. He was the evil ruler of the galaxy - where did he come from? Who knows, never explained. We had to get a whole trilogy to explain Palpatine's origins. But even with that Kylo has more development than Palpatine - or *any* movie villain! Dont believe me? To wit; the motives of all major SW movie villains as explained by the movies they appear in:
-Palpatine: EEEVIIIIIIIL
-Dooku: Doesnt like the Jedi - who knows why.
-Grievous: Idk I get pretty mad during as asthma attack too, I guess.
-Vader: Was told the dark side could save his wife. It didnt. (to be 100% fair he also did butt heads with the Jedi council a lot; Vader has okay reasoning if we ignore the shark-jump of "my wife might die time to kill some kids")
-Snoke: EEEVIIIIIIL *now with 50% less calories*
-Kylo Ren: Was set-up to be the next coming of a Jedi he never met, was betrayed by his Uncle (who was a legendary Jedi in his own right), and had a powerful Dark Sider whispering into his head as a child.

I will say that I actually did BELIEVE that Ben came back to the light side. His fall and redemption arc was handled MUCH better than Vaders ever was. I honestly NEVER believed that Vadar turned 'good' again.  He told Luke that together they'd overthrow the emperor.... and while Emperor was killing Luke, He literally overthrew him.  Killing the Emperor was ALWAYS the end goal and in true Sith fashion he got the job done. All with one hand no less. Lucas tried to push the idea of redemption... but it always feels REALLY hollow.

Ben? Between killing Han and the influences that battered him... you could see him getting torn between two extremes and finally choosing the light.  I can't say I forgive him for the Han death... but I do beleive that he abandoned the dark and came back.

Honestly I really feel that WAY too much is focused on 'training'.  Anakin used the Force to fly podracers that 'no human could'.... Luke was blocking blaster bolts form the training droid the VERY FIRST time ObiWan put the visor down. The moment these characters opened themselves up to the force... it would guide and control them... Decades of Training was never necessary. You can see that by the way Luke develops with his short time on Dagobah as the ONLY training he gets in 3 movies...

A Jedi's training was more about emotional control and how NOT to fall to the dark side. not how to move a rock.... but more WHEN to move a rock... and how not to get angry and hurl that rock through a person. Power is a temptation... and Jedi need to resist that constant temptation. So get those kids when they're young and teach them to control their emotions before they have a tantrum and kill their parents...

Rey was bit Mary Sueish... but nothing bothered me TOO much about it. The idea that she was 'right' and 'awesome' bugged me, because EVERYTHING she was doing was through anger and fear... so having her heading straight to evil actually fixed a lot of my complaints about the earlier movies.

Remember... the Dark side is "quicker... easier... but not stronger, and all her 'practice' was immediately based on the Dark Side.

I would argue Snoke got MORE explanation than Palpatine. For starters... he got a NAME!! in the OT, it was just 'The Emperor'. I dont' remember Palpatine being mentioned till the later novels and the Prequels. Even the toys were just 'The Emperor'...  with zero explanation of anything about him.