Thoughts on The Rise of Skywalker - SPOILERS

[PsychoSith]

An interesting interpretation. And may also possibly have explained why he looked worried when Windu was about to kill him.
I too am in the camp the 'part of Bane made it through to Zannah', but if I'm not mistaken, Drew admitted that Bane was completely destroyed. What I remember of Legacy of Evil is Zannah was already prepared to take up the Rule of Two when she took Cognus as her apprentice. Zannah had spent almost her entire life, up to that point, working toward the end of the Grand Plan. Plus she already had a well documented hatred of the Jedi. Highly unlikely that she would abandon the goal.

Also, the Essence Transfer in the Bane trilogy had to be enacted by the one who was moving in. If the recipient's will was too strong to be overpowered by the invading spirit, that spirit was lost to oblivion since the original body was destroyed. If this were the same thing, then Sidious wouldn't have needed to be struck down.

But I do acquiesce, this notion would be an acceptable retcon in order to "clean up" part of the inconsistencies of the OC. 

Its a minor retcon, I admit. But this small retcon in the EU books puts a lot of the movie moments in perspective. I concur with the Windu reaction, and if you'll allow me a minor tangent it could be argued that this explains some the oddities of his battle with Yoda. He was laughing and gleeful the entire time, and Yoda after falling confessed he "failed." Instead of Yoda admitting defeat due to Palpatine's power, what if he was referring to something deeper? What if Yoda "lost" because in that moment he was hateful of Sidious. Of what he had done to his order, to children. Of course Palpatin was enjoying the fight - had Yoda bested him, he would have killed him by giving into his anger.

A little out there, but i could see it as a good explanation.

As for the power demonstrated, I do buy that Palpatine was extremely physically weak prior to his power absorption. He was essentially inhabiting a corpse in that moment and could scarcely move. And with the lightning I can see it only disabling ships as every time we've seen lightning used in the movies, it wasn't used to kill. Only to cause excruciating pain, and thus I imagine he'd want the rebels to watch their deaths (IE the ground) approach with nothing they could do to stop it. Palps has historically gotten his kicks from making people feel powerless after all, and i could see that kind of power being used as an en-masse example of the suffering he wanted to employ. Thats just my take though.

[Darth Logos]

Its a minor retcon, I admit. But this small retcon in the EU books puts a lot of the movie moments in perspective. I concur with the Windu reaction, and if you'll allow me a minor tangent it could be argued that this explains some the oddities of his battle with Yoda. He was laughing and gleeful the entire time, and Yoda after falling confessed he "failed." Instead of Yoda admitting defeat due to Palpatine's power, what if he was referring to something deeper? What if Yoda "lost" because in that moment he was hateful of Sidious. Of what he had done to his order, to children. Of course Palpatine was enjoying the fight - had Yoda bested him, he would have killed him by giving into his anger.

A little out there, but i could see it as a good explanation.

Possibly. I always had an issue with "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." And then he bounces up into to the Senate.


This doesn't look like "knowledge and defense". You quite possibly could be right.

As for the power demonstrated, I do buy that Palpatine was extremely physically weak prior to his power absorption. He was essentially inhabiting a corpse in that moment and could scarcely move. And with the lightning I can see it only disabling ships as every time we've seen lightning used in the movies, it wasn't used to kill. Only to cause excruciating pain, and thus I imagine he'd want the rebels to watch their deaths (IE the ground) approach with nothing they could do to stop it. Palps has historically gotten his kicks from making people feel powerless after all, and i could see that kind of power being used as an en-masse example of the suffering he wanted to employ. Thats just my take though.

Call me an old fashioned Sith (), but if I wanted to dishearten my enemies, I would show my full power and obliterate the ships in the air instead of letting the ground do it for me. I mean, c'mon. That, to me, sends that clearest message of how completely and utterly boned the Resistance is. They'll be hitting reverse into hyperspace like...

[PsychoSith]

Call me an old fashioned Sith (), but if I wanted to dishearten my enemies, I would show my full power and obliterate the ships in the air instead of letting the ground do it for me. I mean, c'mon. That, to me, sends that clearest message of how completely and utterly boned the Resistance is. They'll be hitting reverse into hyperspace like...

I think that there's the difference. You want to use the power as a deterrent. To say "you cant fight me, don't even try". I think Palpatine is more a long the lines of straight sadism. He wants them to fight him, so he can demonstrate in their last moments of life that they didnt have a chance. Its a cruel logic, but within his character i think.

[Galef]

Regarding Yoda and those guards, they were about to attack him, so you could say he did use the force for defense.  From a certain point of view

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[Darth Logos]

Regarding Yoda and those guards, they were about to attack him, so you could say he did use the force for defense.  From a certain point of view

Mind trick? Pulling weapons from hands? There were other options.

[Galef]

Mind trick? Pulling weapons from hands? There were other options.

Indeed, but I think Yoda was trying to get down to business with Palps, so he didn't want the distraction.
You also have to remember that the Jedi during the Clone Wars era had kinda lost their way/were being clouded by the Darkside/their own hubris.
That's the whole reason Yoda gave up and went into exile. So when he later told Luke that "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", that is either coming from Yoda's experience and growth or there's subtext that Yoda wants to make sure Luke doesn't follow the same path as Anakin, so he's stressing being passive and clam and not succumbing to passions

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[Darth Logos]

Indeed, but I think Yoda was trying to get down to business with Palps, so he didn't want the distraction.
You also have to remember that the Jedi during the Clone Wars era had kinda lost their way/were being clouded by the Darkside/their own hubris.
That's the whole reason Yoda gave up and went into exile. So when he later told Luke that "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", that is either coming from Yoda's experience and growth or there's subtext that Yoda wants to make sure Luke doesn't follow the same path as Anakin, so he's stressing being passive and clam and not succumbing to passions

Possibly. This is a good conversation.

[PsychoSith]

Indeed, but I think Yoda was trying to get down to business with Palps, so he didn't want the distraction.
You also have to remember that the Jedi during the Clone Wars era had kinda lost their way/were being clouded by the Darkside/their own hubris.
That's the whole reason Yoda gave up and went into exile. So when he later told Luke that "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", that is either coming from Yoda's experience and growth or there's subtext that Yoda wants to make sure Luke doesn't follow the same path as Anakin, so he's stressing being passive and clam and not succumbing to passions

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And lets just schmoosh this together with the earlier theory.  An embittered and angry Yoda enters Palpatine's chambers, and dismissively throws his guards against the wall and knocks them out, paying his own violence no heed. Palpatine sees this, and senses Yoda's anger, his resentment, not only for the Sith but for being manipulated so well for so long. Palpatine is joyed to sense this within the Jedi Grand Master himself, his reach successfully infecting even the mightiest of Jedi. They duel, and the entire time Palpatine is gleeful. Its iron-clad; if he loses, Yoda strikes him down in anger and his spirit joins with the most powerful Jedi in centuries, ensuring the Sith's longevity. If he wins, then he has destroyed the only remaining Jedi that poses a threat to him; The Grand Master of the Order, its greatest warrior, and the Chosen One all dead or under his command. Yoda eventually escapes and realizes what he let not only himself, but his whole order sink to. He enters exile, focused not on the Jedi Order, but that principles they ideally stand for. Palpatine is irked at Yoda's escape, and quickly orders a search for him, for Yoda to run instead of finish the fight was not his plan.

Years go by and we see a Yoda that has reflected on his crimes in leading a war; a force of death and destruction. His faults that lead to the death of not only his own order, but very nearly his sense of self, and what it means to be a Jedi. This Yoda urges Luke:

"A Jedi does not attack."


BONUS ROUND: This ALSO means that Luke's exile in TLJ has a beautiful symmetry. Luke, in his own hubris believed he could stop another fall - another failure of the Jedi: By attacking. And it cost him everything. Luke then exiles himself as Yoda did, to reflect on his failures, but with one crucial difference: Yoda reflected on the principles of the Jedi, where Luke reflected instead on the Jedi Texts, their structure and institution. Of course Luke comes to the conclusion by studying their texts and not the heart of their teachings, that the Jedi were destined to fail. Egotistical wizards who thought they could control the galaxy. Luke sinks further into his depression, until Yoda himself has to teach Luke what he learned in his Exile: the teachings of long-winded Jedi dont matter. Luke's failure, like his own, was a teacher. But Luke learnt the wrong lesson. Yoda shows him that it is compassion at the heart of a Jedi, not emotional celibacy.

AND HOW DOES LUKE TAKE THIS LESSON IN HIS FINAL ACT?

He does not attack. He uses the Force for knowledge and defense, for not even his illusion attacks once. And this gives the last hope of the Jedi, the chance she needed.

[Galef]

Agreed, great theory and definitely some strong evidence in canon that this is the case.

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[PsychoSith]

Agreed, great theory and definitely some strong evidence in canon that this is the case.

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And since this *is* a TRoS thread, I'll also throw this in for what its worth.

Rey did not defeat Palpatine with an attack, but a defensive stance that resulted in Palpatine destroying himself. The final attack of the Sith was, fittingly, their undoing.

[Darth Logos]

And lets just schmoosh this together with the earlier theory.  An embittered and angry Yoda enters Palpatine's chambers, and dismissively throws his guards against the wall and knocks them out, paying his own violence no heed. Palpatine sees this, and senses Yoda's anger, his resentment, not only for the Sith but for being manipulated so well for so long. Palpatine is joyed to sense this within the Jedi Grand Master himself, his reach successfully infecting even the mightiest of Jedi. They duel, and the entire time Palpatine is gleeful. Its iron-clad; if he loses, Yoda strikes him down in anger and his spirit joins with the most powerful Jedi in centuries, ensuring the Sith's longevity. If he wins, then he has destroyed the only remaining Jedi that poses a threat to him; The Grand Master of the Order, its greatest warrior, and the Chosen One all dead or under his command. Yoda eventually escapes and realizes what he let not only himself, but his whole order sink to. He enters exile, focused not on the Jedi Order, but that principles they ideally stand for. Palpatine is irked at Yoda's escape, and quickly orders a search for him, for Yoda to run instead of finish the fight was not his plan.

Years go by and we see a Yoda that has reflected on his crimes in leading a war; a force of death and destruction. His faults that lead to the death of not only his own order, but very nearly his sense of self, and what it means to be a Jedi. This Yoda urges Luke:

"A Jedi does not attack."


BONUS ROUND: This ALSO means that Luke's exile in TLJ has a beautiful symmetry. Luke, in his own hubris believed he could stop another fall - another failure of the Jedi: By attacking. And it cost him everything. Luke then exiles himself as Yoda did, to reflect on his failures, but with one crucial difference: Yoda reflected on the principles of the Jedi, where Luke reflected instead on the Jedi Texts, their structure and institution. Of course Luke comes to the conclusion by studying their texts and not the heart of their teachings, that the Jedi were destined to fail. Egotistical wizards who thought they could control the galaxy. Luke sinks further into his depression, until Yoda himself has to teach Luke what he learned in his Exile: the teachings of long-winded Jedi dont matter. Luke's failure, like his own, was a teacher. But Luke learnt the wrong lesson. Yoda shows him that it is compassion at the heart of a Jedi, not emotional celibacy.

AND HOW DOES LUKE TAKE THIS LESSON IN HIS FINAL ACT?

He does not attack. He uses the Force for knowledge and defense, for not even his illusion attacks once. And this gives the last hope of the Jedi, the chance she needed.

And since this *is* a TRoS thread, I'll also throw this in for what its worth.

Rey did not defeat Palpatine with an attack, but a defensive stance that resulted in Palpatine destroying himself. The final attack of the Sith was, fittingly, their undoing.

Ok this went from pretty good idea to OMG I can't believe you brought that garbage up.

[PsychoSith]

Ok this went from pretty good idea to OMG I can't believe you brought that garbage up.

Like it or hate it, it fits.

I like theory crafting and do still enjoy the new movies mind you 

[Galef]

One if the things I like about SW as a whole, whether you like a particular movie or not, is that it doesn't take much imagination to make ALL OF IT fit.
Whether you liked the execution of a particular story element, or if we can all agree that when there is a better way they could have done it, nothing it TRULY unfeasible.  RoS is no different.  I would have liked all 3 sequel movies to have had a plan, but it all makes *enough* sense to not be too distracting from the good vs evil pew-pew, woosh-clash fest that is Star Wars.

If I can easily make up a "head-canon" to explain something off, it's good enough.

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[Darth Logos]

Like it or hate it, it fits.

I like theory crafting and do still enjoy the new movies mind you 

Grrr

I'll give it a slim maybe. For me, there was only 1 thing that came even close to being done well in TLJ, and that is what has become known as the Holdo Maneuver, which, according to Because Science, was half-assed.

Fast forward to the end of TROS. Where and when did Rey even learn that a saber could deflect lightning, let alone that 2 sabers would make it easier? But I did like the fact that, despite it being the end of KK's girl-power fan-fic (hence all the forced re-writes and firings), Rey dies in order to vanquish her enemy. I still would have liked her to struggle a bit more in this.

One of the things I like about SW as a whole, whether you like a particular movie or not, is that it doesn't take much imagination to make ALL OF IT fit.
Whether you liked the execution of a particular story element, or if we can all agree that when there is a better way they could have done it, nothing it TRULY unfeasible.  RoS is no different.  I would have liked all 3 sequel movies to have had a plan, but it all makes *enough* sense to not be too distracting from the good vs evil pew-pew, woosh-clash fest that is Star Wars.

If I can easily make up a "head-canon" to explain something off, it's good enough.

Actually, it does take some imagination. It takes more imagination (at least with the sequels) to fit everything together than it they used to make the movies. Even George said it in an interview, that the new Canon is almost afraid to use true creativity. They are far to reliant on Hollywood formulas to produce a film that will make money, instead of telling an original and imaginative story. Do you think Lucas consulted demographic studies when he made the OT? Hell no. Or even after, with the prequels? Again, hell no. He told the story he wanted to tell, in the way he wanted to tell it. Granted the love story was a total groaner, but <insert meme here>. The only thing that Hollywood was interested in money-wise was "Star Wars = Big $$$$". This could have been done in the exact same way, but no. They followed the formula and made boring soulless movies. Big names + tons of nostalgia + social agenda + weak and predictable story = $$$. We'll just throw the name Star Wars on it to guarantee people see it.

It truly makes me wonder, if these films were remade without the blanket of the SW name, how well would they actually do?

[Racona Nova]

Like it or hate it, it fits.

I like theory crafting and do still enjoy the new movies mind you 

^ This!! We all respect different opinions, and everybody has the right to think different of the movies. I wrote that in another thread: It's Star Wars, it doesn't necessarily need to fit our logic. It's science-fiction, which normally follows its own logic. Personally, I like how they did the new movies. Yes, there are parts that could have been done better, and yes, much of its potential went unappreciated, but bashing the whole trilogy just for some mistakes that have been made? Or because it shows something that hasn't been explained in detail before? That's a bit over the top (actually, that's what I think about the bashing of the PT as well). There were many things in the OT that weren't explained either! Example: the use of the Force. Luke Force Pulls his saber into his hand in that Wampa cave in Ep IV. No one ever  explained where and when he learned that. Was it through Obi-Wan's spirit? His papers on Tatooine? Does anyone critizise that? No. So why do we do that with the PT and ST?

Like I said, it's my opinion, and you can agree or disagree. I'm fine with that - as long as it's a discussion with objective arguments. However, I do not accept things like "Well, it's the PT/ST" or "The PT has Jar Jar" or such things.

And we must not forget: although we all like Star Wars (be it old canon, new canon, the EU), and we all have our own ideas how to make this or that - those who actually write, direct, act, may have different ideas and different way to get that on screen, paper or into games. We have to accept that. But to abandon the whole universe just because it doesn't match our own imagination of the Star Wars world...I think that's the wrong way.

My 2c on this...over and out and MTFBY