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Author Topic: Random Star Wars Thoughts  (Read 947271 times)
Darth Tepes
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« Reply #2415 on: September 29, 2017, 01:56:01 AM »

Having a motive or purpose doesn't make them more relatable. . . unless you are willing to do "evil" things. . . but you are a sith lord.

What I mean is someone Like Sauron.  A great Evil that looms over the world.
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« Reply #2416 on: September 29, 2017, 02:03:54 AM »

I disagree.  I have no problem with a character just being Evil.  The problem comes from no variety at all, there is room enough for all the different types of villains.  As to Pong Krell, He began to see the Jedi and the Republic as weak and inefficient as well as glimpsing images of the future in which the Jedi and the Republic fall.  So basically The Force was giving him warnings but he took them as an invitation to go to the "stronger" side. 
Barris turned because....... *Spoilers if you want to wait to watch it*

.... she saw the Jedi as being the villains in the Clone Wars.  She felt the Jedi had become too violent.  Her betrayal did lead to one of the best fights in the series though.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_0Y4nnylA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_0Y4nnylA</a>


And again, I'm reminded of why I love this show.
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« Reply #2417 on: September 29, 2017, 01:49:29 PM »

A characters motive can put a spin on their actions that keeps them from being pure evil, or it can make the most benign actions sinister. I can think of plenty of reasons for a young Jedi to become disillusioned or an old one jaded, but not many of them justify a turn to the dark side of the force. And remember kids, a character shouldn't "just evil for evil's sake" and they definitely should not wake up one morning and decide to be a monster, give your bad guys some depth and your heroes will have a greater challenge to overcome.

I don't remember the reason for Pong Krell's turn, but I remember thinking that it was weak writing. I don't even remember Bariss's turn, so I guess I need to re-watch all of the show, right?
Evil for the sake of being evil is so last century. It's what I classify as a 2D villain. Nobody likes that anymore. I understand the reasons why a Jedi would turn. What I didn't like was when the motives were either weak or simply poorly explained. You pretty much said what I was thinking. Krell's motives weren't memorable. Offee's were a little more defined, but it still never really explained why she threw her best friend under the bus.

I disagree.  I have no problem with a character just being Evil.  The problem comes from no variety at all, there is room enough for all the different types of villains.  As to Pong Krell, He began to see the Jedi and the Republic as weak and inefficient as well as glimpsing images of the future in which the Jedi and the Republic fall.  So basically The Force was giving him warnings but he took them as an invitation to go to the "stronger" side.
Clearly you've seen the series a few times. Thanks. But I still defer to the fact that this wasn't a shining plot point. I'm pretty good at remembering key elements in a story. Still disagreeing on the 2D villains. Weak motives make weak villains. They don't have anything that drives them to victory. A villain with a cause has reason to fight. Thusly, the essence of the Sith Code; their passions drive them to victory. I loved that they introed this. It turned the Sith into 3D villains instead of "We wear black and we're evil, deal with it."

Quote
Barris turned because....... *Spoilers if you want to wait to watch it*
... she saw the Jedi as being the villains in the Clone Wars.  She felt the Jedi had become too violent.  Her betrayal did lead to one of the best fights in the series though.
Thanks again. Or like Dooku turned for his political ideology. He felt the Republic had grown decadent and corrupt beyond repair. He joined Sidious' cause hoping to fix a broken system no matter the cost. I actually hated that they made him 2D in TCW.

I just think that writing a character as just evil to be evil is lazy sort of like the "it just happens because" thing that happens in a lot of movies, it's okay for a character to be evil, but they need a purpose in my opinion.
OMG, I KRIFFING HATE THE "It just is" EXCUSE. For many reasons I can't get into, I actively fight that mentality. Nothing "just is". That would be like me justifying my well documented hatred of TFA with "I just do." When the truth of the matter is I deeply love SW, so there has to be reasons for me not to like this one.

Having a motive or purpose doesn't make them more relatable. . . unless you are willing to do "evil" things. . . but you are a sith lord.
Excuse me. ô¿o

What I mean is someone like Sauron.  A great Evil that looms over the world.
Excellent example. There's no 'why' behind Sauron. He just wants to dominate everything. Weak motive. The orcs would pretty much ruin everything, so what would be the point in having control over a wasteland?
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Darth Tepes
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« Reply #2418 on: October 01, 2017, 03:59:15 PM »


Excellent example. There's no 'why' behind Sauron. He just wants to dominate everything. Weak motive. The orcs would pretty much ruin everything, so what would be the point in having control over a wasteland?

There actually is a why.  What many fail to realize is Everyone in LOTR made a choice, we're just seeing them AFTER their choice has been made.  If you would like to know I will gladly tell you (LOTR is actually a bigger passion for me than Star Wars) but it will be a bit of a read.
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« Reply #2419 on: October 01, 2017, 09:38:22 PM »

There actually is a why.  What many fail to realize is Everyone in LOTR made a choice, we're just seeing them AFTER their choice has been made.  If you would like to know I will gladly tell you (LOTR is actually a bigger passion for me than Star Wars) but it will be a bit of a read.

Indeed. Same with me. Write away. Grin
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BatMike90
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« Reply #2420 on: October 01, 2017, 09:39:39 PM »

...Write away. Grin
Second this, write away.
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« Reply #2421 on: October 02, 2017, 02:45:30 PM »

There actually is a why.  What many fail to realize is Everyone in LOTR made a choice, we're just seeing them AFTER their choice has been made.  If you would like to know I will gladly tell you (LOTR is actually a bigger passion for me than Star Wars) but it will be a bit of a read.
Beyond viewing the story as a direct parallel to Armageddon, I would love a more in depth explanation. On the surface he simply comes across as a 2D archetype; an evil that must not be allowed to endure. The same can be said for the Korean drug lord in Lucy. He represented the worst of humanity, all for the sake of man's feeble perception of power. Don't get me wrong, that archetype has a place in literature when alluding to moral undertones. But when developing an in depth plot, it is far more necessary to establish viable motives.
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« Reply #2422 on: October 02, 2017, 04:08:25 PM »



Too funny to ignore.
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« Reply #2423 on: October 02, 2017, 08:23:58 PM »

There actually is a why.  What many fail to realize is Everyone in LOTR made a choice, we're just seeing them AFTER their choice has been made.  If you would like to know I will gladly tell you (LOTR is actually a bigger passion for me than Star Wars) but it will be a bit of a read.

Oh, I'd love to hear your analysis.  I'm interested to see if it matches my own.  But you first.  :-)

In all seriousness, though, we ALL make that choice.  And its not always a single-point choice and rarely is it irredeemable.  Though redemption may come at great cost and not always just your own cost, but the cost of those who love you.

LOTR is filled with these kinds of themes and ideas, but as someone else said, they're wrapped up in what looks like a fairly simple story - on the surface.  But isn't life like that a lot, too?  It looks pretty simple on the surface, but underneath...

Yeah.  Those guys in the Inklings were geniuses...  All of 'em.
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« Reply #2424 on: October 02, 2017, 08:32:47 PM »

But isn't life like that a lot, too?  It looks pretty simple on the surface, but underneath...
No. I liked Sirius Black's assessment: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the power we choose to act on. That's who we really are."
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« Reply #2425 on: October 02, 2017, 10:52:23 PM »

No. I liked Sirius Black's assessment: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the power we choose to act on. That's who we really are."
I agree with this, not only because Sirius is my favorite "Potter" character but it holds a lot of truth in it.
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« Reply #2426 on: October 03, 2017, 10:03:02 PM »

No. I liked Sirius Black's assessment: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the power we choose to act on. That's who we really are."
  I also agree with this assessment; It is so true. Point to you Sir.
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« Reply #2427 on: October 06, 2017, 08:22:30 PM »

Sorry, for the long wait. I did not have time to type a decent length post till today.  Here we go.

First, I think its important to understand who and what Sauron is.  Eru, The One, created the Valar (High Angelic Beings) and then the Maiar (Lesser Angelic beings) to be their servants.  Unlike Mortals, there is no redemption for beings on this plane.  Once they decide to go against their purpose...thats it.   One of the Valar, Morgoth, decided to go against Etu's design and created discord and became the first Dark Lord who's sole purpose was the destruction of all Eru and the Valar created.  Sauron was a Maiar under the Valar Aule, the Smith (creator of the Dwarves).  Sauron was a shapeshifter and craved Order above all else.  He saw Morgoth as having the power to achieve that Order...so he joined Morgoth as his Lieutenant.  After Morgoth's fall Sauron used subterfuge to try get in with the people of Middle-Earth.  When his plan for the Rings failed he decided to forget subterfuge and went to all out War.  His goal was to control the will of all the beings of Middle Earth.
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« Reply #2428 on: October 06, 2017, 08:54:38 PM »

Sorry, for the long wait. I did not have time to type a decent length post till today.  Here we go.

First, I think its important to understand who and what Sauron is.  Eru, The One, created the Valar (High Angelic Beings) and then the Maiar (Lesser Angelic beings) to be their servants.  Unlike Mortals, there is no redemption for beings on this plane.  Once they decide to go against their purpose...thats it.   One of the Valar, Morgoth, decided to go against Etu's design and created discord and became the first Dark Lord who's sole purpose was the destruction of all Eru and the Valar created.  Sauron was a Maiar under the Valar Aule, the Smith (creator of the Dwarves).  Sauron was a shapeshifter and craved Order above all else.  He saw Morgoth as having the power to achieve that Order...so he joined Morgoth as his Lieutenant.  After Morgoth's fall Sauron used subterfuge to try get in with the people of Middle-Earth.  When his plan for the Rings failed he decided to forget subterfuge and went to all out War.  His goal was to control the will of all the beings of Middle Earth.
Is this Tolkien's original character construct? It's well thought out (and a little familiar Roll Eyes), but one would think that if Sauron were bent on order that his minions wouldn't look like they survived the ass end of a wood chipper as well as been more disciplined. Or does he suffer from a Brainiac style of logic that dictates the destruction of everything is in itself a form of order?
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« Reply #2429 on: October 06, 2017, 09:31:27 PM »

Is this Tolkien's original character construct? It's well thought out (and a little familiar Roll Eyes), but one would think that if Sauron were bent on order that his minions wouldn't look like they survived the ass end of a wood chipper as well as been more disciplined. Or does he suffer from a Brainiac style of logic that dictates the destruction of everything is in itself a form of order?

From the Silmirillion. basically the Bible of middle Earth.  Tolkien was inspired by both his Faith and the Norse Sagas he loved.  



Sauron's minions were at one time Morgoth's minions; their appearance is in direct correlation to the Malice of Morgoth.  Sauron just took control of them after Morgoth's defeat.  Sauron controlled the orcs and other foul beings, they were actually quite disciplined considering their nature.  His desire was to control the will of every being...more Darkseid than Brainiac.   The creatures during Morgoth's reign were so much more powerful than in the Third Age under Sauron.  Ancalagon the Black, greatest of all Dragons was one.  

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