Saber Forum

Well, Hello every1 firstly!
I've searched youtube for people practising the actual forms with they're sabers and didn't could find alot of them really relying on those abilities.
For example I've looked for people, using Soresu.. All I was able to find were some persons doing actually.. well..
Nothing else as attacking, spinning theyre sabers and tossing them around. (Which really let you open for attacks.. in a resilienced form of saberfight)
So my question is as the Topic asks already.

-Do anyone of you actually practice those forms? Or do you fight just with instinct and to look cool in it?
-What is your prefered form and do you actually use it alot or do you mix it up, to make your own style?
-What you would like to be then? An Jedi or an Sith?

Well.. since I've asked those question, I will as well answer them first!

First.. I dont own a Lightsaber, but I got an unsharp katana (which is way heavier) and practice with dumbbels.. where I attached all weights (actually 20kg) at one side..
Secound.. I practice Soresu alot, since I want to be an master of it! I'm an convinced Jedi.. And the best example of an Soresu Jedi in the movie is Obi Wan, I would like to fight like him!
Third.. Well I'm convinced Jedi.. and I'm always talking about morals and what you shouldn't do or not (thats true.. my brother said to me today: "STOP BEING SUCH A $*!/=?")

I know there are alot of threads about the Lightsaber forms..  but only discussing about the forms and theyre differences..
You don't need to tell the others, what saberform you prefer, if you want to keep it an secret.. till you duel those persons actually!

Well, I don't really know the forms very well. That is, I'm not 'formally' trained in them. I'm not bad at copying what's seen in the films though. :) Personally, I tend to lean towards Makashi. The Fencing style. Just because most people I fight are used to lightsabers as a two handed weapon, and they tend to be trained that way. But really, I mix it up alot and use pretty much whatever I can learn. Personally, I am on the side of the Jedi. Not exactly Old Order though. I take the approach of a Jedi that's sort of partially trained, out on his own. Like what you might find during the 'Dark Times' as Obi Wan would put it. It's sort of the theory of: Jedi escaped the purge, and now he trained someone, but not fully, for fear of the worst or because he himself was unable to finish the boys training, and now I'm this half trained kid just out on his own trying to find himself etc. lol

Nope.  I don't practice any of the forms.  I just tend to go with whatever I feel like.  And as for which side I lean towards... I don't.  Grey Jedi all the way.

I...don't, but not because I don't know them. I have a tendacy to focus too much when I'm dueling on "pulling my punches". My favored forms are Shii-cho and Ataru, both very powerful forms. Shii-cho is very deliberate, very powerful, and very capable of dealing a lot of damage. Ataru is as well but with more emphasis on movement. When I duel I do so to have fun not to hurt anyone, so I tend to actually shy away from any forms and just freeform it(Or rely on Niman, I suppose.)

However, I do tend to rely on Makashi to keep myself on the defensive a bit. It's more of a balancing act. Makashi is a less powerful form focusing on more parries and thrusts which tend to work better in a friendly duel than whacking someone upside the head. Plastic blade or not, it still hurts to get smacked with one.

i dont have a saber yet, but am learning the stuff with my shinai.
I guess my form is Vapaad. i like to do quick effective busts, then pull off and defend for a sec.
I am a sith, but like none seen before. i guess you could call me a sith good guy

There's no such thing as a sith good guy. Sith are inherently evil, or if you don't believe they are evil then their ideals are at least evil. The sith pride themselves on strength through subversion, trechary, and betrayal. Deciet is sith strength. And sith always kill each other. Always. It is the sith way.

Don't confuse grey jedi with the sith. While the grey jedi don't always follow the jedi code to a T, they usually act with the better interest of most people in mind. Knowing the living force means understanding that the universe exists in a balance, and for every good done there is an equal evil done. The more you feed the light side, the more you equally feed the dark side. Grey jedi will sometimes ignore those those ask for help in order to maintain the balance of the living force, or sometimes avoid preventing an act of cruelty, but they are  not sith.

And vapaad doesn't make you a sith either. Form VII requires you to channel your emotions, but maintaining your emotions, not succumbing to them, is what makes a jedi.

For #1, Ever since I discovered these forums (especially with articles and videos by Caine) I have been practicing with Form V, specifically the Djem So variant.  It was kind of tricky at first because I used to practice Makashi and was more used to European sword combat and fencing, but I'm really liking the two-handed smashy-smashy dynamic that Djem So comes along with.  :P

I have very little martial arts training, aside from a couple years of Tae Kwon Do, some mixed martial arts, and self-taught fencing.  What I like is that saberplay is really coming into its own as a martial art, especially with the stuff that Caine and Novastar are doing with it, from what I've seen.  So for #2 ,with Djem So there's a lot of good material out there, and it's a very unique, provoking style, so I try and stick to existing reference material and "canon" form stuff.

#3 If I had my choice...Jedi all the way. 

what about Jacen Solo. he started off with the right idea, he just lost his way. and the sith way is not treachery and deciept, its gaining power. which someone with a strong willpower and the right ideals can use effectively.

One can say they duel with forms, for the forms are picked to suit your personal style. Training in one form using katas or epon kumite conditions your mind to react in a certain way in a real duel.

Training in a specific form will lead to you naturally using  those techniques in the heat of combat.

Of course, these moves won't be exactly the same in combat either (even in martial arts, emphasis on technique during training is only to develop muscle memory during sparring).

Personally, because of years of Karate, the martial art has influenced me to use a fighting style that is part Form IV and Form V, as karate relies on counterattacks and movement.

Darth Caedus slipped into the dark side a couple of times. That last time he slipped into the dark side he decided to take off the brakes and burn sky until the only light side left for him was the bright end of a lightsaber.

The sith desire power, and that includes power over others, and the desire for power supercedes everything else. It's what make sith so strong and what gives them an extremely short shelf life. The force is not a tool, it is a way, and once you start down the dark side there is no straying back into the light without first coming back the way you came. That also means facing the results of your usage of the dark side. Juyo thrives in the thrill of the fight, the supremicy of power, and the estacy of the kill. It's a very dark form. Vappad stops at the thrill of the fight, but it is still the first step down a long, dark road.

Interesting... this topic is PRECISELY why Caine & I have been putting together our system of "combat forms", each of which is paired up.

Each form CAN be "presented" or "performed" on its own... and they work just fine that way, "as is".  However... they are MEANT to be paired TOGETHER!  One primarily as the "attacking" version of the form... the other, as the (somewhat mirroring) defense.

This isn't to say that in ALL forms that the attack portion is ALWAYS attacking... nor vice-versa with the defense side.

It's not also to say that we decided to use the "SW canon" form names or that we bothered to attempt capturing whatever the bloody heck it was writers were trying to notate when they simply described each "lightsaber form" with a few meager sentences.  Remember: all those "forms" like Djem So or Soresu or whatever... came AFTER THE FACT that Star Wars had then been around for 30+ years.

With any luck, the forms we have been putting together will really challenge people to LEARN NEW SKILLS with each form... and in the case of pairing up with a partner in order to accomplish the forms... you'll find the difficulty level increases right then and there.

At any rate... the sheer amount of work we've done is pretty tough to explain.  Which is why there will be DVDs regarding the entire system, and they will start from the basic level all the way to advanced and complicated actions/forms.

Sounds like Luke to me... ::)

More or less. lol Only I tend to play it a little older than Luke, and throw in some good old fashioned Solo to balance it out. A guy whose seen enough to want to stay out of the limelight, but who still has enough training, faith, and conscience in him to pursue the doing of good whenever the choice is right in front of him. On a more personal level than just outright saving the galaxy.  ;D

I duel as often as I can, and I find myself primarily using 3 forms.

Soresu is my prefered form, I enjoy the easy defense and calming nature of the form. I will revert to this one any time I'm feeling tired or over-whelmed, such as when dueling someone using an unfamiliar style or multiple lightsabers. Generally this is more just to delay, and I don't think I've ever stuck with Soresu through an entire duel.

Despite what some say, I find that Makashi is most useful when I'm dueling multiple opponents. With its focus on footwork and precision, I can fend off one oponent with a quick thrust, then focus on redirecting the attacks of another. I've used this to quite good effect and survived several 2 on 1 duels unscathed between Makashi and Ataru.

I will also occasionally use Djem So style moves when I feel like being showy and putting out some strong attacks.

I'll agree with you there, on Makashi.  When I'd duel two or three people at once it's a good way to wear them down.  Djem So I've found more useful recently, though, for dueling against one partner.  I've enjoyed Djem So more than Makashi lately just because I find two-handed fighting to be more effective than wielding a blade one-handed, which I've found Makashi oft requires.

Despite the fact that I have several favorite forms, I've found that the most effective form for me is to have no form at all. I wait and let the opponent make the first move and make sure that it's his last. So far it always works.

Well thats like Soresu.. ^^ waiting for the enemy to be open and use this advantage

That sounds like a niman-ish version of soresu. Jedi must learn all forms, but niman users are rarely a master of any. They use the elements, often to great effect, even though they're less refined.

True, but I believe it's stated that a niman user studies other things outside of lightsaber combat. I use the pause before and during combat to analyze the weakness in my opponents style and exploit it. When I find it I change styles on them at the last minute.

My friend and I have developed our own versions of a few of the forms.  Personally, I have fenced for around 8 years, so naturally I tend to use Makashi as my primary style.  I've also worked somewhat on Ataru and Djem So just to mix it up - changing styles mid-fight tends to throw my opponents off a LOT.  My friend is a martial artist, and primarily uses Soresu.  Like me, he mixes it up by occasionally using Vaapad in a fight.

I'm more like Luke in that, I know some things about the forms and how to use my lightsaber, but not enough to actually practice any of the forms yet, so I basically just throw all the moves I know together to make my own little fighting style.

Sounds kind of like my take on Djem So.  Lots of smashy-smashy, but basically a conglomerate of all the useless random martial arts tidbits and stage combat I've learned over the years.  It's still not especially effective, unfortunately.

Well, you keep trying and practicing and making your technique more and more effective. I have a few myself and I try to give each form their own spirit and style. I am not really sure what I use. I mix it up depending on whoever is dueling with me, but, I always try to be on the attack, or at least use different offensive techniques. Then again, I also like being on the deffensive at times. Also depends on which saber I am using, too. If you have a staff, I think you need to be on the offensive.

a staff can be very defensive as well.
The fact that you almost don't even need to spin your blade.. but just have to block.. makes a staff very defensive.
You can protect completely one side with just one movement.. :)

True true, the only issue is you need to be good with a staff to actually defend efficiently. Someone who is quick with a single blade could have an advantage against a staff. Side blocks with a staff and trick you up sometimes. So a confusion volley could be a little troublesome. But, if someone is very good with a staff, then that is a whole new picture. My problem with the staff is that you can mix yourself up a lot, really quick too, and lose your momentum when you are in a duel. Same thing with dual wielding. But, if you get good at it, you can fix that problem. I, with how I use a staff, end up using it more for offensive than deffensive. Just because the staff is so awesome of a weapon in terms of speed and confusion.

yup I think so too.. but the enemy can confuse you, but since you got at the end of the hilt.. another blade.. you can fix your mistake very quick..
He feints from left.. you block left.. but he attacks right then.. so you just spin the staff.. giving you an advantage..
and because of the spin -> you are able to attack from bottom :)
staff is very confusing.. and its even more confusing, when you use it to defend!

Not to get off-topic, but staffs and dual wielders are my bane.  With the style I'm using it's awesome on a one-on-one fair fight, where both opponents are only using one saber, but I'm finding that it's just not cutting it against double-bladers.  Any thoughts on a good way to deal with these?

Well.. when fighting against a double-blader.. always think of the secound blade! Never forget that.. and you shall alwys imagine what next move he can make..
fighting against double-bladers would be the best exercise.. it will steel your defence as well!
Against dual wielders.. well theyre much harder as double-bladers.. because they actually can use their secound blade without influence of the first..
The blades of a double-blader are always attached to each other.. what gives them a limit to theyre attacks..
a dual-wielder can wield the main blade without influence on the 2nd blade.. so they got like 2 blades to make fluence attacks! and both of those "Fluences" are individual.. so you just need ALOT of care.. but you should counter attack alot against them.. what will make them use theyre 2nd blade to defend..

It's actually easier to duel against a staff user because if you know where one blade is you automatically know where the second blade is due to the hilt being connected. A dual saber user is a little more dangerous, but they are faced with the same danger of having to know where each of their blades are at every given moment. Personally, although I can use two lightsabers easily, my ultimate preference is just a single saber.

I've never used two sabers before, but I have used a sword and a knife before. It's a potent combination, parrying with the sword to close the gap for a stab, or feinting with the knife to get in a cut or chop. Sabers being lighter than swords, I can see where dual sabers would be even faster in a duel.

Sounds like the same idea as using a regular saber and a shoto.  That could actually work nicely.

Anyone can defeat you if you allow yourself to be intimidated, and thus prepare yourself for defeat. The spectacle of a saber staff or a duel wielder can be daunting, but understanding the weaknesses of both styles will help you to learn to defeat them. Wielding a saber staff is no more a guarantee of victory than wielding a single bladed lightsaber,

With the double blade, it leaves the user's center completely open. Try it. It's nearly impossible to properly block your center with a saber staff, hence why Darth Maul's weapon ended up getting cut in half. Also, if you lock up one half of the saber staff in the right position, the entire weapon is rendered useless, unlike with dual wielding.

The trouble with the saber staff is that it allows for some very furious attacks, and doesn't detract from the user's strength the way dual wielding does. You can put quite a bit of force into a blow with a staff, so you should try to keep moving and dodge more than you block so that the momentum of their strikes will throw them off.

I've fought people wielding 2 sabers, the Jarkai style quite often, and it's a lot easier for me to fight someone doing that as a result. Check out the lightsaber combat megapos in this forum for info on defense against Jar'Kai.

i'd have to say that during a duel i use a form that comprises a mix of makashi and soresu, heavily leaning towards soresu.  lots of defense, lots of critical thinking regarding openings. 

Thanks for all the advice!  Yeah, I've been practicing recently against a couple of people who were dual wielding, and staff-wielding.  I actually found that using a two-handed grip on a saber with longer reach actually worked out very nicely.  More power, more range.

I practice double-bladed reverse grip with V2 initiates, using Muay Thai inspired strikes. I only have a bit of fencing experience, and training in Muay Thai, I am by no means well versed.

I find it to be quite practical in that if you have a 3ft blade, moving that around, being close to your opponent would be kind of hard so using the shorter blades, they almost feel like a fighting with Tonfas or Galdius; Tight quick jabs and cuts.

Cool style man, I always thought dual wielding the Initiates would be a good idea.  Nice and maneuverable due to the short blade length and all.  On the subject of a Gladius, I always thought the idea of a saber and shield would be kinda cool, something I'm going to look into in the future.

Sabers and Shields!


Clash of the Titans (2010) would have been so much more awesome with sabers.

I tend to favor Shii Cho and Djem So in my movements. That's not because I planned to, but because of the way I'm built and like to fight. I'm 5'10, 250lbs. I tend to eat up combat zone (Shii Cho's speciality) and limit my opponents options. So when I started sabering, those two seemed to come naturally

Sounds like a pretty good combo.  The simplicity of Shii Cho with the strength and aggression of Djem So.  Both are good two handed styles too, so they probably fit well together.

It's much the same with me, my styles flow from my training as well as my size.  I'm 6'2" so something I've always tried to do in fencing is to learn to keep a BIG distance to maintain my advantage - this is something I extend to saber dueling.  I use Makashi as a result of my background in fencing, with my own interpretation involving a lot of maneuvering and feints.

I've noticed that my style is relative to my opponent:  I get a feel for how well I can "push around" my opponent and adjust based on this.  I use much more Makashi when facing my friend Artorius, as he has a great deal of swordsmanship experience and is not easily thrown off guard.  My apprentice, on the other hand, isn't as experienced (though he is learning quickly!).  I find myself using more of a Djem So style offense when facing him.

Actually one thing I always feel frustrated with is my inability to go like 50% in sparring.  I'm typically very reserved, especially when facing less experienced foes, for I fear to hurt them.  I tend to aim for arms and legs to disable him or her.  I always feel like the only other option is to truly cut loose - which I would never do without protective gear.  I guess the only solution is to obtain said gear!

What moves from Ataru are actually practical? Because a lot of the videos I've seen it just looks like asinine flipping.

I could see Parkour movements being beneficial, being able to move around your environment as easily as possible by running on walls and clearing gaps getting the High Ground.

Alot of people confuse Ataru with "Any form of flipping will do". I watch a lot of guys choreo fights claiming to use Ataru and I'll sit there with a "Unnecessary Acrobatic" count. If they reach three, I stop the fight and tell them to actually think about what the hell they are doing.

That being said, Parkour can be used as an analogue for Ataru. Anything that involves using the entire body in a continuous motion, which is what Parkour excels at, is Ataru. Also, let me bring up this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y4SpqKPm7U# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y4SpqKPm7U#) For the record, he's based that off of chinese straight sword

Thank you for posting the video, it was a great.

I see the Chinese sword in there, I like to watch Kung Fu.  ;D

That's a good one, I love seeing the martial arts emerge from a saber form - you can totally see the Chinese swordsmanship roots in there.

My method of defining these forms is this:  I cut them down to their most basic strategies and strengths.  For Ataru, this core tactic is straightforward:  overwhelming the opponent through fast, unpredictable attacks.  If I had to use a phase to describe it I would say this:  "the best defense is a good offense."  The objective with Ataru is to keep your opponent from recovering enough to mount an offensive, keep the momentum going against him so he cannot counter and is eventually struck down.  While you see Yoda using his immense Force abilities to hop all over the place, don't forget that Qui-Gon was said to be a skilled Ataru stylist, and his technique involved little flipping and hopping around.

Being as we can't really use the Force (sadly), I typically go with the latter variant of Ataru.  High mobility, fast and unpredictable attacks.  Keep the pressure on the opponent, but if you HAVE to use defense, move your body rather than parry if possible.  Dodging and using good footwork allows you to quickly turn a defense into an offense, which is what you always want to do with Ataru!  Look what staying on defense did for Qui-Gon... the poor guy got speared by Maul.

I personally find it difficult to execute Ataru in sparring - not only is it quite tiring, but it can be dangerous to implement due to the wild nature of it.  In a REAL fight, you would want to take your opponent out... but in practicing with a friend that's the last thing you want.  Whew... sorry for the long post, hope it was somewhat helpful - that's just my own take on the form.

Thanks for the Ataru lesson Nero.  ;D

You hit on the main weaknesses of the form (something few people really get into when developing them). Ataru is high energy, and even though there was The Force involved, it still required a being to exert energy. That costs. Many believe that Qui-Gon was killed because after a while he ran out of steam. Yoda is wiped after his fights.

Another point: There is a very strong similarity between Ataru and Form VII: Juyo. Both valued offense over defense, with Juyo taking it to the extreme by having NO defense whatever. Where Ataru was continuity, Juyo seemed (though not always) random and unpredictable. Ataru was an automatic weapon, overwhelming the opponent with a barrage of gun fire in a quick burst while Juyo was more along the lines of "Shock and Awe".

As for sparring with Ataru, the key is to overwhelm. Find and exploit his openings before they realize they are open. Make your partner work to defend their soft points. Eventually, they will tire, or miss by a fraction, and you'll get them...or you'll tire, and they'll exploit. Either/or

So if you mixed Muay Thai with Jar'Kai using shorter blades added a dash of Juyo that would be how I duel wield.

I Can't jump around a whole lot at the moment, but I can still move quickly, and I figure speed If more important in Saber Play as opposed to strength in power or at least thats what I have surmised from going through the forum.

Speed is one of the most important factors of any fight. The fastest, yet most controlled attacker will usually win.

But yes, speed can be used in difference from Acrobatics. I mean, look at Liam Nesson in the film. Qui Gon isn't flipping around all the time, he's just barraging the opponent as fast as he can

                good point  ;D

I just want to go on the record and state... in my experience... from what I know about martial arts... if you're sparring "real-time" with sword props of any kind (i.e. Kendo with shinai, Fencing with saber/foil/epee, LED sabers with polycarb, etc.)...

...if you do any kind of flips or crazy spins or twists...
...a GOOD martial artist... a TRAINED martial artist... will hit you during such an action.

Either that, or you'll simply miss whatever action/attack you were planning on making.  Most of the time.  There ARE exceptions, but those exceptions would most likely be on things such as spin hook kicks, or VERY fast "body-spinning" saber attacks (btw, these could be VERY dangerous if they connect to an opponent without proper protection).  Still... these would require EXCELLENT timing,

Granted... ok... that's just my opinion... but--hmm... I'm just trying to speak realistically.  Not "movie fight" stuff... REALISTICALLY.  :)

Again... don't get me wrong--this would be with / vs. TRAINED martial artists / kendo practitioners / fencers.

Don't take my word for it... look up:

* National Kendo match footage
* National / Olympic saber fencing bout footage
* Insert_Yer_Favorite_Sword_Art_Here footage (hopefully from a "national" or high-level... not just Jedi Farkus and Darth Meathead goin' at it)  :)

I doubt you'll see any super-hyper dragon twistaz there... :)

Noted Master Nova.

I agree 100%.  After 19 years of martial arts training in a wide variety of arts and styles I've seen this tried.  Every time a student has mentioned or tried to use any kind of flip/hand spring/cartwheel etc in a OFFENSIVE motions (aside from capoeira) the teacher or senior student has either A) Hit them in the air or B) Taken the time to move, rest for a second and then once they land BLITZ the student and crush them.

I'll go ahead and back up Nova too - fencing is one of those things where these kind of flashy acrobatics don't really work.  I use them of course, but more for fun (VERY rarely in a serious bout against a skilled opponent).  In fact, I would go so far to say that it's ESPECIALLY unadvised in fencing - we don't use the three dimensions that martial artists tend to use, so you can really only go up... and get hit.

I don't have a whole lot of experience in other martial arts apart from what I've learned from Artorius, but it seems to me that this would carry over there as well.

This may be why I (PERSONALLY) prefer fencing / Kendo for "real time" combat and... well... I LOVE choreography and gorgeous staged combat which contains fun stuff here and there (and sometimes... I want to see TONS of flips/twists, ala "tricking")!

And you're not alone in that respect!  Good choreo should be visually appealing and mind wrenching, whereas when I watch a fight I want to see technique and realism.

Going back to what lightsaber forms people use, I practice the makashi form. I believe its the form Count Dooku uses. I wish i knew it but i'd like to learn the vapaad form.

I can get behind Vapaad, I'd really like to learn that form.

You are correct about Count Dooku.


Well if you can't find someone who understands it near you I'd suggest investing in NovaCaine's (HA! Never gets old) DVDs!

I be honest... although I can't speak for Caine... to *ME*... there is no such thing as any single particular form or style.  The way *I* personally see it (again, personally)... there are just... different ways of doing things at any given moment.

For example... just using the "most basic" moves (which I'm starting to learn, people like to call this "Shii Choi")... will allow you to attack and defend pretty much every single target.  In some ways... there is no need to become so "adept" at most anything else.

For example... using the saber in an "inverted + 1-handed" way (which I have no idea what "SW forms" this would apply to)... will produce some fun & interesting moves... but they don't make much sense in the "reality" of saber combat, since... it greatly reduces the reach of your attacks, and also limits certain defensive actions.  Still--very purty to look at!  :)

Remember: this thread appears to be about "do you actually DUEL with saber forms" (likely meaning "SW saber forms")

For example... using the saber in a "normal, 1-handed" way (which I can only assume is primarily relational to Dooku)... for some reason or another, is considered to be a "fencing" style (it seems they call it "makashi"??).  This actually makes no sense to me, as... just by holding a saber with one hand doesn't "magically" mean you're using a fencing style now, lol!  I might as well hold my saber with two hands, really high, grunt, then swing wildly and call that "broadsword" style... :)

For example... using a staff might be considered a "style"... but I (personally) think otherwise...

For example... using "dual sabers" might be considered a "style"... but I (personally) think otherwise...

In all cases, I see things as "more complicated" and "less complicated"... or--actions that are closer to mastery... and actions that are closer to basics/simplicity.  And most of the fancy moves... relate more to staged combat / filmed combat than anything else.

I fully agree with Master Nova. Staged combat can include alot more fancy moves since you can alow yourself ,or partner, time to perform them. In an actual duel you go for the point , defend , go for the point...etc. If you go to do a nice spin you open yourself up to attack. Im sure there is a place for spins in an actual duel however you would have to be extremely fast ,and as Master Nova pointed out , someone could get hurt. Im certain you can take strikes and blocks from the various forms and use them well in a duel , however if your opponent knows what form / strike / defense your getting ready to use , you will loose . Try not to be predictable and always be on guard!!

This is dripping with Bruce Lee and I love you for it.

Of course as a Lee fan I agree.  Even when I Duel with Nero there are moments that reflect to a philosophy of the different styles, but that just coincidence.  When I fight, it's me.  Not Soresu, not Vaapad.  Bruce Lee said many times that fighting as an art should be just another form of self expression and that is 100% true for me.  Evening in a sparring match, I'm not thinking of using moves from TKD, now Okinawan Karate, Shotokan back to TKD.  Just fight.

If you don't know who Bruce Lee is go on youtube and get some videos of the man.  And be prepared to learn a whole new concept on "Style."

Style is very often something determined after the fact of a confrontation...you can speak about movements in an interpretive fashion, with a particular style in mind. In execution, this has little value, since each action and phrase of actions will be re-interpreted by the practitioner on a case by case basis with relation to effectiveness. After studying a system or many systems of combat, style can be "discovered" by the individual practitioner based on personal predilections, as long as efficiency and mastery are taken into account.

Reading through some of these posts, I think I should add a few observations from here and in lightsaber combat in general:

1) Most of the Fancy moves ARE solely for the realm of Stage Combat. In fact, ALL of the Lightsaber Combat you see in the SW movies and shows is all Stage Combat. Several members in NY Jedi met and learned under Nick Gillard (Fight Coordinator of the Prequel Films) at Combat Con this past year. They asked him about the Seven Forms and he said (paraphrasing) that the Seven Forms were developed AFTER the fact. He designed the fights to be beautiful and action packed, but nothing really BEYOND that. What you see on screen cannot be considered indicative of the Forms themselves. Which means that the Forms exist solely on paper and in our imaginations, which we here are trying to externalize

2) Having said that, the Forms are subjective. They are Archetypes of Combat, so to say that This technique is such and such a form is entirely opinion. It's more or less attitudes of combat

Form I: Basic, Forward Moving. Bulldozer style attacks that eat ground and clear out multiple opponents
II: Classical and Precise. A duelist's form. Clearly based on Fencing (Rapier, Sabre, Epee, Chinese Straightsword), both in description and attitude (Think of European Nobles duelling in the streets)
III: Defense at all costs, wearing the opponent down
IV: Strike First, Strike Last
V: Control the Opponent
VI: Serenity and Meditation through Martial Training
VII: The Unbridled Joy of Combat and Violence

When I see someone attempt a Form, I look more for the feel and less for the technique. That's not to say that Technique doesn't matter. The whole point of the Forms is to give some level of competency in training to Jedi and Sith (which, let's face it, we're trying to emulate).

Honestly, if you want to read my FULL opinion on the matter, read my paper on the Seven Forms:
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0)

Bruce Lee had the right idea: learn, adapt, and dissolve the form. Jeet Kune Do is itself a mindset of learning, assimilating, and improving and less about Bruce's techniques. Lee's JKD does have strong roots in Wing Chun, his first and base martial art. That form of Jeet Kune Do was what worked for him, and not necessarily for others. JKD focused on what worked for the individual on a personal basis (note: this is in and of itself MY opinion. Feel free to disagree)

Thanks for posting the light saber form paper. ;D

I second this.  Fantastic paper, I love to see people's interpretation of these forms.  As you said Uilos, they're ideas that were created after the fact to sort of describe styles used by the characters.  When they had Anakin fighting they weren't thinking, "oh this is Djem So" they were thinking "Anakin is a brash and angry guy, so his style will reflect that."  It's ultimately up to people like you to form great and comprehensive thoughts about these forms.  This is something I have tried to do as well, and I thank you for your reflection on the forms - it gives me another point of view to consider  ;D

I could not possibly have said it better.  :)  Bravo, great post!

you honor me. *bows* :)

i love to watch students' styles emerge as they train. its one of the greatest gifts being a coach can get yah.

After reading through these forums and incorporated what worked for me, I know I have become a better duelist.

My wife says I much more fluid and I SWEAR It's because of the Masters on here.

Thank you. ;D

i find that i tend to use instinct to fight, although i seem to mix and match forms. For ecample, I like to fight one-handed (makashaki) but hate stabbing. I like full out offense (vapaad) but also like commiting to defence (soresu) to tire opponuts out.

Me and Jr. used to spar to first touch, but felt like there wasn't enough movement, (pretty much standing still and whacking each others hands) So we switched to Dancing, and let me tell you, my body already feels the difference ! Witch is what i was going for.  

That can happen with some.  When people wonder what Form they use, I tend to go with whichever one describes their main dueling tactic - everybody has one of these, a comfort zone they try to utilize when they spar.

For instance, my fencing experience gives me an obvious Makashi lean.  Distance, precise blade control, thrusting - these things are all indicative of Form II.

However, it's worthwhile to note that everyone has a different take on the seven Forms... the fact that they have very little practical information available on them means that you could interpret them very differently.  If you'd like to see one member's very thorough and well thought out interpretation of the forms, you can go here:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0)

Alright, what would light 1hd slashing mixed with a little 2hd Strong cuts fall under ?

Hard to say.  Strong 2 handed cuts are reminiscent of Djem So, while lighter one handed slashes could be Makashi or Ataru.

A better way to categorize someone is to look at their overall style, their approach to combat.  Let me give you an example.

When I fence, I have a few options that I tend to utilize.  When the bout starts I take a step or two forward, then kinda ease back.  I like to move a bit, wait to see what my opponent does before reacting.  I'll either use a nice quick beat attack, or surprise him with an attack in preparation if he opens up during his forward movement.

Now non-fencers might not understand that reference, but what I mean is that I have certain "comfort areas" in a duel.  Other people have different ones.  Some people are clearly jumpy, always wanting to throw attacks out there.  Others are patient, preferring to take parries and analyze.  This is where your "Form" comes into play, and it's really the best way to determine which lightsaber style suits you.

Well, looks like imma have to break out the camera after the weather clears up some...not a whole lot of moving room in the house. ;D  When we full out spar, I know he's gonna be aggressive, so I hang back and wait for a opening to throw him off balance or get a good strike in,and then I advance while keeping him on the D, because I know that's where he's week, and being twice his size(weight wise) I can easily force him in a different direction. I like keeping my distance, yet capable of close range when forced. Switching from 2hd and 1hd the whole time. I've had some martial training, but nothing too extensive. Some Shaolin, Wing chung, Isshin-ru.(about a year or 2 in each) Mostly because I couldn't find a style I was comfortable with.

The idea of using your size as a way to overpower him is reminiscent of Form V:  Djem So.  The overall tactic of Djem So is to dominate the duel, keeping your opponent on the ropes with your sheer strength and aggression.  Just a thought.

I was thinking about the NJO 'Forms' (Fast, Strong, Medium), and I was thinking that perhaps we could use these as further classification for the physical aspects of each Form rather than seperate forms? I've seen people who claim to use Ataru solely because they spin a lot, and that could be called Ataru Medium, whereas my version would be Ataru Fast. Just a thought.

I like this.

I guess I'd be Vapaad Fast or Juyo Fast; since I know that Vapaad wasn't created till later.

That's a neat idea.  I would have a hard time meshing the two together personally, since the NJO "forms" are a bit oversimplified (fast and weak, medium, slow and strong), but I definitely think you have a good point about different expressions of the forms.  It's part of what I mean when I say that they're subjective - SOTJ's Ataru probably has little in common with my Ataru for instance.  She jumps a great deal, I avoid it for the most part - I tend to regard it as a waste of energy.  It's like she utilizes a Yoda type of Ataru, while I emulate the Qui-Gon version.  We each take a different part of the core of Ataru and expand upon it, and that rarely results in the same thing.

The only thing I'm not big on the NJO forms about is their tendency to regard speed and strength as the only two contributing factors.  That sort of thinking is more applicable to techniques and their application, while the traditional forms address more tactics and style IMO.

I might make a new topic for this idea later so as not to repurpose this one too much ;)

Okay, people... Really?  Really?!

First off, let's all get in touch with REALITY here. 

Do we need to mention that the "7 Forms of Lightsaber Combat" are not REAL martial arts styles?  I mean, we all know they were written as fictional descriptions to help describe characters and the setting in the Star Wars stories -- right?  So, the emphasis here is the author's desire to tell a story, and not necessarily describe a realistic martial form.  Sure, some of them were inspired by one or more martial arts (from fencing to kendo to wing-chun) and were portrayed by combining different skill sets that include tennis and ballet.  But you couldn't use one or more of the "7 lightsaber forms" in an actual fight, could you?

Second, I think it is safe to presume that these lightsaber forms were created for use with lightsabers, which, as we all know, do not really exist.  We heft around 2-pound lightsaber props, which are very different from the nearly weightless laser swords from the Star Wars stories.  Therefore, one cannot actually use the weapon as it is intended and described.

Third, the Force is actively present and used in the Lightsaber Combat Forms, where the wielder utilizes from hyper-acrobatic leaps, precognitive sense, inhumanly fast reflexes and telekineses (among others) during lightsaber combat.  In REALITY, however -- maybe not so much.   If you think this is something you can do now, try playing tennis with your lightsaber prop.  if you can do it well enough to win the Wimbledon Championship, then perhaps you do have the ability to wield the Force adequately enough to say you can use even the simplest of the fictional 7 forms of lightsaber combat.

I'm not trying to be the wet blanket on everyone's Star Wars fantasies, but come on, people!

How about learning martial arts that actually exist on this side of reality and applying it to your saber-hefting hobby?  Wouldn't that be more fun and healthier than claiming to be able to use fictional and completely unrealistic sci-fi/fantasy "lightsaber forms?"

Again, I don't mean to offend or step on any toes here.  If I do, then I apologize in advance.

I don't think anybody here claims to be able to use the forms as they are shown in the movies.... the only reasons I bother with the forms are because I enjoy classifying things and it seems a logical way to classify different styles of 'combat' on here. No offense taken, but I think you should expect a lot of talk about the forms on a SW-centered forum.

From what I've seen and read, it's more people trying to classify their sword play to that of SW lore, You duel with what your comfortable with, the check to see what it resembles. As far as actual styles..The average Samurai duel is over in what....5 sec or less ?  where's the fun in that !  lol Some styles of Swordsmanship DO have 2 person exercises, but I'ts pretty hard to find others to practice it. At least in my Xp.  Higher populated ares might have better chances.

Seriously, you should lighten up.

ITS FICTION.

I think you knew before you posted all of this that it provided nothing to the conversation.

Its tone was nothing but super condescending.

Now I see your point but we aren't seriously thinking we are waiting real lightsabers in our hands.

So,

Chill out and please refrain from being a wet blanket because its Star Wars, none of it is happening in Reality. If we needed that clarification, we would have bigger problems on our hands than discussing real world translations of FICTIONAL lightsaber combat.

MTFBWY and cheers.

What Chainmale said, hits the nail on the head. We don't actually think we're using the 7 forms, we just use them as a way to describe our fighting styles using Star Wars terms.

Most of the people posting on this thread study, practice, and in some cases teach martial arts. This is hypothetical discussions, a bunch of martial geeks sitting around going "I wonder how a martial art that doesn't exist, for a weapon that doesn't exist, would work" and everyone here realizes that (I would hope so). If you took the time to read in between the lines, or the other posts we make, you would see it.

Thank you for that Uilos, excellent point.

Coming on to a combat lightsaber forum and bashing members who wish to discuss the practical application of fictional martial arts forms is not only stupid, it is rude and pretentious.  I understand that we cannot flip around like Yoda or see strikes before they happen, but then again we do not have weightless infinitely sharp energy blades either.

We welcome opinions here, John-Michael, but do not take kindly to trolls dropping in to patronize us and disrupt discussions without any provocation.  Please feel free to post your opinions and further constructive conversation, but do so in a respectful manner.  We keep a mutual respect for each other here which allows people to post freely without fear of reprisal, keeping this forum friendly.

Heh.  Well, I thought I was actually being nice.

My goal is to develop the Seven Forms of lightsaber combat into seven styles of martial arts, of course for use with led sabers; not real lightsabers.  ::)
What I'm doing is developing a sequence (kata) and a velocity (sparring drill) for each form. Then asking different dueling communities to submit their own sequences and velocities for whatever form they have a passion for. Each sequence and velocity would be reviewed for practicality and then either accepted, rejected or request revision.

What do you guys think? I don't see why we can't do it, martial arts styles were made by trial and error. Why not do it with the Seven Forms, then there could be curriculum for dueling clubs world wide.

It can happen we jsut gotta get it rolling although I don't really have experience to speak of.

Having 20 years of martial arts experience (just over 5 years teaching now) I refrained from commenting in this thread after the little bomb was dropped.  Uilos, as usual, has just exactly what is going on.  We are members of a nerdy hobby who like to discuss hypothetical and nerdy things.  Do I think I can actually use a lightsaber?  Make me one and I'll show you.  However my skills with a katana, bo and other asian bladed and non-bladed weapons tell me that I can at least classify what sorts of concepts are shared between the philosophies of an art and one of our hypothetical "Forms."

It's just fun.

Cheers.

EDIT - I forgot to mention why I commented.  Get back to the discussion.  This has been thrown off topic enough.  Lucien, start the discussion if you want but somebody get on here and get us back on track.

Back onto the original post.... I fight with instinct and it just ends up resembling Ataru. Which also answers the second question. And the third question.... Jedi, definitely. Although that feels like getting off topic for some reason ;)

-Do anyone of you actually practice those forms? Or do you fight just with instinct and to look cool in it?

Since there isn't an actual form, I just try to embody the idea of Vapaad.

I don't have experience so I just do what my body tells me to. My gut is usually right so I listen.

Niman though seems like an appropriate route for me though since, I do bits for everywhere.

Since all there is on the forms is vague descriptions, my dream is to at least kick start the development of the seven forms as a full martial arts style.

If we could get it accepted by Lucas, I say we should submit it via fanfilm. Then all the better, but then we would finally have better classifications of each form, that would be used for sparring, and teaching.

It's interesting to see the different ways people "fall into" forms.  For instance, Kham doesn't have experience but on instinct falls into Vaapad, whereas I fall into Makashi because of my experience in fencing.  It's like his form is decided by his personality, whereas mine is decided by my training.  Just something I thought was neat.

It probably comes down to the two ways you can look at the forms - technique and philosophy.  Technique wise, Makashi is characterized by small cuts and thrusts, and blade manipulation.  Philosophy wise, it is more about clever manipulation of distance and position, a mix of offense and defense.  Likewise, Vaapad can be split up - its philosophy is all about utilizing dark emotions as fuel, while its technique is using fast and strong attacks in a lethal offense.

What I'm trying to say is, it's almost like I was drawn to Makashi more for the technique, while Kham leans towards Vaapad for the philosophy.  I could be wrong, but that's just the vibe I got.

That is exactly right on.

Since i have no experience, I really like to look at the "Form Names".

Mace Windu developed a lightsaber style based upon the vaapad. The style used quick and deadly strikes to overcome the enemy, much like how the vaapad would use its tentacles on prey.

The tentacles of a live vaapad were almost impossible to count as they moved so quickly that they were nothing but a blur to the naked eye and they were very efficient at destroying their prey.

These to excerpts from Wookiepedia on the "Vaapad" animal, from which the form was derived.

That is how I developed my dual wielding style.

Since I use shorter blades and I am short as well, I needed to move faster to compensate for my loss of reach.

I might be wrong but I remember that in Wing Chun, instead of hitting hard, you hit fast.

So you blast as many punches as you can into their diaphragm to compress it so they can't catch their breath and strike back.

Without experience I just have to analogize everything and create a way that works for me.

 

I agree with you here, my form was a mix of both my training and my personality. My theory is that our fighting can show our personalities, and our personalities can influence what fighting styles we use. I'm drawn to forms that use a mix of speed brutality and strength. However I am by nature a defensive fighter. So I'm almost at odds with myself in a fight, on one hand I have a lot of aggressive feelings and anger. Yet I believe in only fighting for self defense. So when I do fight I'm very brutal, but to get me into a fight is nearly impossible.

That reflects in my dueling, if there's a chance of hurting someone I hold back and mainly defend. If there's protective gear I turn into a completely different duelist

You are correct, I have some experience in Wing-Chung, it is a very up close and personal style with a heavy focus on speed and precision with the goal to compassionate an opponent ASAP

So many good martial arts styles out there, I wish I had enough time to learn them all.