Do you actually duell with Lightsaber forms?

[Master BStone]

Style is very often something determined after the fact of a confrontation...you can speak about movements in an interpretive fashion, with a particular style in mind. In execution, this has little value, since each action and phrase of actions will be re-interpreted by the practitioner on a case by case basis with relation to effectiveness. After studying a system or many systems of combat, style can be "discovered" by the individual practitioner based on personal predilections, as long as efficiency and mastery are taken into account.

[Master Uilos]

Reading through some of these posts, I think I should add a few observations from here and in lightsaber combat in general:

1) Most of the Fancy moves ARE solely for the realm of Stage Combat. In fact, ALL of the Lightsaber Combat you see in the SW movies and shows is all Stage Combat. Several members in NY Jedi met and learned under Nick Gillard (Fight Coordinator of the Prequel Films) at Combat Con this past year. They asked him about the Seven Forms and he said (paraphrasing) that the Seven Forms were developed AFTER the fact. He designed the fights to be beautiful and action packed, but nothing really BEYOND that. What you see on screen cannot be considered indicative of the Forms themselves. Which means that the Forms exist solely on paper and in our imaginations, which we here are trying to externalize

2) Having said that, the Forms are subjective. They are Archetypes of Combat, so to say that This technique is such and such a form is entirely opinion. It's more or less attitudes of combat

Form I: Basic, Forward Moving. Bulldozer style attacks that eat ground and clear out multiple opponents
II: Classical and Precise. A duelist's form. Clearly based on Fencing (Rapier, Sabre, Epee, Chinese Straightsword), both in description and attitude (Think of European Nobles duelling in the streets)
III: Defense at all costs, wearing the opponent down
IV: Strike First, Strike Last
V: Control the Opponent
VI: Serenity and Meditation through Martial Training
VII: The Unbridled Joy of Combat and Violence

When I see someone attempt a Form, I look more for the feel and less for the technique. That's not to say that Technique doesn't matter. The whole point of the Forms is to give some level of competency in training to Jedi and Sith (which, let's face it, we're trying to emulate).

Honestly, if you want to read my FULL opinion on the matter, read my paper on the Seven Forms:
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0

Bruce Lee had the right idea: learn, adapt, and dissolve the form. Jeet Kune Do is itself a mindset of learning, assimilating, and improving and less about Bruce's techniques. Lee's JKD does have strong roots in Wing Chun, his first and base martial art. That form of Jeet Kune Do was what worked for him, and not necessarily for others. JKD focused on what worked for the individual on a personal basis (note: this is in and of itself MY opinion. Feel free to disagree)

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Thanks for posting the light saber form paper.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Thanks for posting the light saber form paper.

I second this.  Fantastic paper, I love to see people's interpretation of these forms.  As you said Uilos, they're ideas that were created after the fact to sort of describe styles used by the characters.  When they had Anakin fighting they weren't thinking, "oh this is Djem So" they were thinking "Anakin is a brash and angry guy, so his style will reflect that."  It's ultimately up to people like you to form great and comprehensive thoughts about these forms.  This is something I have tried to do as well, and I thank you for your reflection on the forms - it gives me another point of view to consider 

[Novastar]

Style is very often something determined after the fact of a confrontation...you can speak about movements in an interpretive fashion, with a particular style in mind. In execution, this has little value, since each action and phrase of actions will be re-interpreted by the practitioner on a case by case basis with relation to effectiveness. After studying a system or many systems of combat, style can be "discovered" by the individual practitioner based on personal predilections, as long as efficiency and mastery are taken into account.

I could not possibly have said it better.    Bravo, great post!

[Master BStone]

you honor me. *bows*

i love to watch students' styles emerge as they train. its one of the greatest gifts being a coach can get yah.

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

After reading through these forums and incorporated what worked for me, I know I have become a better duelist.

My wife says I much more fluid and I SWEAR It's because of the Masters on here.

Thank you.

[DarthThantos]

i find that i tend to use instinct to fight, although i seem to mix and match forms. For ecample, I like to fight one-handed (makashaki) but hate stabbing. I like full out offense (vapaad) but also like commiting to defence (soresu) to tire opponuts out.

[Chainmale75]

Me and Jr. used to spar to first touch, but felt like there wasn't enough movement, (pretty much standing still and whacking each others hands) So we switched to Dancing, and let me tell you, my body already feels the difference ! Witch is what i was going for.  

[Master Nero Attoru]

i find that i tend to use instinct to fight, although i seem to mix and match forms. For ecample, I like to fight one-handed (makashaki) but hate stabbing. I like full out offense (vapaad) but also like commiting to defence (soresu) to tire opponuts out.

That can happen with some.  When people wonder what Form they use, I tend to go with whichever one describes their main dueling tactic - everybody has one of these, a comfort zone they try to utilize when they spar.

For instance, my fencing experience gives me an obvious Makashi lean.  Distance, precise blade control, thrusting - these things are all indicative of Form II.

However, it's worthwhile to note that everyone has a different take on the seven Forms... the fact that they have very little practical information available on them means that you could interpret them very differently.  If you'd like to see one member's very thorough and well thought out interpretation of the forms, you can go here:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0

[Chainmale75]

Alright, what would light 1hd slashing mixed with a little 2hd Strong cuts fall under ?

[Master Nero Attoru]

Alright, what would light 1hd slashing mixed with a little 2hd Strong cuts fall under ?

Hard to say.  Strong 2 handed cuts are reminiscent of Djem So, while lighter one handed slashes could be Makashi or Ataru.

A better way to categorize someone is to look at their overall style, their approach to combat.  Let me give you an example.

When I fence, I have a few options that I tend to utilize.  When the bout starts I take a step or two forward, then kinda ease back.  I like to move a bit, wait to see what my opponent does before reacting.  I'll either use a nice quick beat attack, or surprise him with an attack in preparation if he opens up during his forward movement.

Now non-fencers might not understand that reference, but what I mean is that I have certain "comfort areas" in a duel.  Other people have different ones.  Some people are clearly jumpy, always wanting to throw attacks out there.  Others are patient, preferring to take parries and analyze.  This is where your "Form" comes into play, and it's really the best way to determine which lightsaber style suits you.

[Chainmale75]

Well, looks like imma have to break out the camera after the weather clears up some...not a whole lot of moving room in the house.   When we full out spar, I know he's gonna be aggressive, so I hang back and wait for a opening to throw him off balance or get a good strike in,and then I advance while keeping him on the D, because I know that's where he's week, and being twice his size(weight wise) I can easily force him in a different direction. I like keeping my distance, yet capable of close range when forced. Switching from 2hd and 1hd the whole time. I've had some martial training, but nothing too extensive. Some Shaolin, Wing chung, Isshin-ru.(about a year or 2 in each) Mostly because I couldn't find a style I was comfortable with.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Well, looks like imma have to break out the camera after the weather clears up some...not a whole lot of moving room in the house.   When we full out spar, I know he's gonna be aggressive, so I hang back and wait for a opening to throw him off balance or get a good strike in,and then I advance while keeping him on the D, because I know that's where he's week, and being twice his size(weight wise) I can easily force him in a different direction. I like keeping my distance, yet capable of close range when forced. Switching from 2hd and 1hd the whole time. I've had some martial training, but nothing too extensive. Some Shaolin, Wing chung, Isshin-ru.(about a year or 2 in each) Mostly because I couldn't find a style I was comfortable with.

The idea of using your size as a way to overpower him is reminiscent of Form V:  Djem So.  The overall tactic of Djem So is to dominate the duel, keeping your opponent on the ropes with your sheer strength and aggression.  Just a thought.

[SOTJ]

I was thinking about the NJO 'Forms' (Fast, Strong, Medium), and I was thinking that perhaps we could use these as further classification for the physical aspects of each Form rather than seperate forms? I've seen people who claim to use Ataru solely because they spin a lot, and that could be called Ataru Medium, whereas my version would be Ataru Fast. Just a thought.