Do you actually duell with Lightsaber forms?

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

You hit on the main weaknesses of the form (something few people really get into when developing them). Ataru is high energy, and even though there was The Force involved, it still required a being to exert energy. That costs. Many believe that Qui-Gon was killed because after a while he ran out of steam. Yoda is wiped after his fights.

Another point: There is a very strong similarity between Ataru and Form VII: Juyo. Both valued offense over defense, with Juyo taking it to the extreme by having NO defense whatever. Where Ataru was continuity, Juyo seemed (though not always) random and unpredictable. Ataru was an automatic weapon, overwhelming the opponent with a barrage of gun fire in a quick burst while Juyo was more along the lines of "Shock and Awe".

As for sparring with Ataru, the key is to overwhelm. Find and exploit his openings before they realize they are open. Make your partner work to defend their soft points. Eventually, they will tire, or miss by a fraction, and you'll get them...or you'll tire, and they'll exploit. Either/or

So if you mixed Muay Thai with Jar'Kai using shorter blades added a dash of Juyo that would be how I duel wield.

I Can't jump around a whole lot at the moment, but I can still move quickly, and I figure speed If more important in Saber Play as opposed to strength in power or at least thats what I have surmised from going through the forum.

[Master Uilos]

Speed is one of the most important factors of any fight. The fastest, yet most controlled attacker will usually win.

But yes, speed can be used in difference from Acrobatics. I mean, look at Liam Nesson in the film. Qui Gon isn't flipping around all the time, he's just barraging the opponent as fast as he can

[Shalateaus]

Speed is one of the most important factors of any fight. The fastest, yet most controlled attacker will usually win.

But yes, speed can be used in difference from Acrobatics. I mean, look at Liam Nesson in the film. Qui Gon isn't flipping around all the time, he's just barraging the opponent as fast as he can

                good point 

[Novastar]

I just want to go on the record and state... in my experience... from what I know about martial arts... if you're sparring "real-time" with sword props of any kind (i.e. Kendo with shinai, Fencing with saber/foil/epee, LED sabers with polycarb, etc.)...

...if you do any kind of flips or crazy spins or twists...
...a GOOD martial artist... a TRAINED martial artist... will hit you during such an action.

Either that, or you'll simply miss whatever action/attack you were planning on making.  Most of the time.  There ARE exceptions, but those exceptions would most likely be on things such as spin hook kicks, or VERY fast "body-spinning" saber attacks (btw, these could be VERY dangerous if they connect to an opponent without proper protection).  Still... these would require EXCELLENT timing,

Granted... ok... that's just my opinion... but--hmm... I'm just trying to speak realistically.  Not "movie fight" stuff... REALISTICALLY. 

Again... don't get me wrong--this would be with / vs. TRAINED martial artists / kendo practitioners / fencers.

Don't take my word for it... look up:

* National Kendo match footage
* National / Olympic saber fencing bout footage
* Insert_Yer_Favorite_Sword_Art_Here footage (hopefully from a "national" or high-level... not just Jedi Farkus and Darth Meathead goin' at it) 

I doubt you'll see any super-hyper dragon twistaz there...

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Noted Master Nova.

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

I just want to go on the record and state... in my experience... from what I know about martial arts... if you're sparring "real-time" with sword props of any kind (i.e. Kendo with shinai, Fencing with saber/foil/epee, LED sabers with polycarb, etc.)...

...if you do any kind of flips or crazy spins or twists...
...a GOOD martial artist... a TRAINED martial artist... will hit you during such an action.

Either that, or you'll simply miss whatever action/attack you were planning on making.  Most of the time.  There ARE exceptions, but those exceptions would most likely be on things such as spin hook kicks, or VERY fast "body-spinning" saber attacks (btw, these could be VERY dangerous if they connect to an opponent without proper protection).  Still... these would require EXCELLENT timing,

Granted... ok... that's just my opinion... but--hmm... I'm just trying to speak realistically.  Not "movie fight" stuff... REALISTICALLY. 

Again... don't get me wrong--this would be with / vs. TRAINED martial artists / kendo practitioners / fencers.

Don't take my word for it... look up:

* National Kendo match footage
* National / Olympic saber fencing bout footage
* Insert_Yer_Favorite_Sword_Art_Here footage (hopefully from a "national" or high-level... not just Jedi Farkus and Darth Meathead goin' at it) 

I doubt you'll see any super-hyper dragon twistaz there...

I agree 100%.  After 19 years of martial arts training in a wide variety of arts and styles I've seen this tried.  Every time a student has mentioned or tried to use any kind of flip/hand spring/cartwheel etc in a OFFENSIVE motions (aside from capoeira) the teacher or senior student has either A) Hit them in the air or B) Taken the time to move, rest for a second and then once they land BLITZ the student and crush them.

[Master Nero Attoru]

I'll go ahead and back up Nova too - fencing is one of those things where these kind of flashy acrobatics don't really work.  I use them of course, but more for fun (VERY rarely in a serious bout against a skilled opponent).  In fact, I would go so far to say that it's ESPECIALLY unadvised in fencing - we don't use the three dimensions that martial artists tend to use, so you can really only go up... and get hit.

I don't have a whole lot of experience in other martial arts apart from what I've learned from Artorius, but it seems to me that this would carry over there as well.

[Novastar]

This may be why I (PERSONALLY) prefer fencing / Kendo for "real time" combat and... well... I LOVE choreography and gorgeous staged combat which contains fun stuff here and there (and sometimes... I want to see TONS of flips/twists, ala "tricking")!

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

And you're not alone in that respect!  Good choreo should be visually appealing and mind wrenching, whereas when I watch a fight I want to see technique and realism.

[Palan]

Going back to what lightsaber forms people use, I practice the makashi form. I believe its the form Count Dooku uses. I wish i knew it but i'd like to learn the vapaad form.

[Kham-Ryn Kurios]

Going back to what lightsaber forms people use, I practice the makashi form. I believe its the form Count Dooku uses. I wish i knew it but i'd like to learn the vapaad form.

I can get behind Vapaad, I'd really like to learn that form.

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

Going back to what lightsaber forms people use, I practice the makashi form. I believe its the form Count Dooku uses. I wish i knew it but i'd like to learn the vapaad form.

You are correct about Count Dooku.

I can get behind Vapaad, I'd really like to learn that form.

Well if you can't find someone who understands it near you I'd suggest investing in NovaCaine's (HA! Never gets old) DVDs!

[Novastar]

You are correct about Count Dooku.

Well if you can't find someone who understands it near you I'd suggest investing in NovaCaine's (HA! Never gets old) DVDs!

I be honest... although I can't speak for Caine... to *ME*... there is no such thing as any single particular form or style.  The way *I* personally see it (again, personally)... there are just... different ways of doing things at any given moment.

For example... just using the "most basic" moves (which I'm starting to learn, people like to call this "Shii Choi")... will allow you to attack and defend pretty much every single target.  In some ways... there is no need to become so "adept" at most anything else.

For example... using the saber in an "inverted + 1-handed" way (which I have no idea what "SW forms" this would apply to)... will produce some fun & interesting moves... but they don't make much sense in the "reality" of saber combat, since... it greatly reduces the reach of your attacks, and also limits certain defensive actions.  Still--very purty to look at!  

Remember: this thread appears to be about "do you actually DUEL with saber forms" (likely meaning "SW saber forms")

For example... using the saber in a "normal, 1-handed" way (which I can only assume is primarily relational to Dooku)... for some reason or another, is considered to be a "fencing" style (it seems they call it "makashi"??).  This actually makes no sense to me, as... just by holding a saber with one hand doesn't "magically" mean you're using a fencing style now, lol!  I might as well hold my saber with two hands, really high, grunt, then swing wildly and call that "broadsword" style...

For example... using a staff might be considered a "style"... but I (personally) think otherwise...

For example... using "dual sabers" might be considered a "style"... but I (personally) think otherwise...

In all cases, I see things as "more complicated" and "less complicated"... or--actions that are closer to mastery... and actions that are closer to basics/simplicity.  And most of the fancy moves... relate more to staged combat / filmed combat than anything else.

[Vex]

I fully agree with Master Nova. Staged combat can include alot more fancy moves since you can alow yourself ,or partner, time to perform them. In an actual duel you go for the point , defend , go for the point...etc. If you go to do a nice spin you open yourself up to attack. Im sure there is a place for spins in an actual duel however you would have to be extremely fast ,and as Master Nova pointed out , someone could get hurt. Im certain you can take strikes and blocks from the various forms and use them well in a duel , however if your opponent knows what form / strike / defense your getting ready to use , you will loose . Try not to be predictable and always be on guard!!

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

I be honest... although I can't speak for Caine... to *ME*... there is no such thing as any single particular form or style.  The way *I* personally see it (again, personally)... there are just... different ways of doing things at any given moment.

For example... just using the "most basic" moves (which I'm starting to learn, people like to call this "Shii Choi")... will allow you to attack and defend pretty much every single target.  In some ways... there is no need to become so "adept" at most anything else.

For example... using the saber in an "inverted + 1-handed" way (which I have no idea what "SW forms" this would apply to)... will produce some fun & interesting moves... but they don't make much sense in the "reality" of saber combat, since... it greatly reduces the reach of your attacks, and also limits certain defensive actions.  Still--very purty to look at!  

Remember: this thread appears to be about "do you actually DUEL with saber forms" (likely meaning "SW saber forms")

For example... using the saber in a "normal, 1-handed" way (which I can only assume is primarily relational to Dooku)... for some reason or another, is considered to be a "fencing" style (it seems they call it "makashi"??).  This actually makes no sense to me, as... just by holding a saber with one hand doesn't "magically" mean you're using a fencing style now, lol!  I might as well hold my saber with two hands, really high, grunt, then swing wildly and call that "broadsword" style...

For example... using a staff might be considered a "style"... but I (personally) think otherwise...

For example... using "dual sabers" might be considered a "style"... but I (personally) think otherwise...

In all cases, I see things as "more complicated" and "less complicated"... or--actions that are closer to mastery... and actions that are closer to basics/simplicity.  And most of the fancy moves... relate more to staged combat / filmed combat than anything else.

This is dripping with Bruce Lee and I love you for it.

Of course as a Lee fan I agree.  Even when I Duel with Nero there are moments that reflect to a philosophy of the different styles, but that just coincidence.  When I fight, it's me.  Not Soresu, not Vaapad.  Bruce Lee said many times that fighting as an art should be just another form of self expression and that is 100% true for me.  Evening in a sparring match, I'm not thinking of using moves from TKD, now Okinawan Karate, Shotokan back to TKD.  Just fight.

If you don't know who Bruce Lee is go on youtube and get some videos of the man.  And be prepared to learn a whole new concept on "Style."