The Snark Side of the Force

[Master Seblaise]

It can also be considered a very higher paced Makashi.

Oki

Don't think of these in absolutes and one replaces the others. Research and blend different styles and you'll get closer to the idea.

As already said, i am a complete newby considering the 7 forms So  i read with great interest everything i find on the forum, including your work ...

And as already said, pure canne is not terrible when dueling with light saber ... i have to adapt ... surely what you call "blend with other styles"

BUT, it is good to to know that i can classify myself as an aggressive Ataru fighter LOL

[Master Nero Attoru]

Oki

As already said, i am a complete newby considering the 7 forms So  i read with great interest everything i find on the forum, including your work ...

And as already said, pure canne is not terrible when dueling with light saber ... i have to adapt ... surely what you call "blend with other styles"

BUT, it is good to to know that i can classify myself as an aggressive Ataru fighter LOL

They're rather abstract ideas, and VERY open to interpretation.  Master Uilos does the best job I've encountered in trying to flesh them out, and make them a bit less nebulous.  We both work with TPLA, and it's been a constant challenge to make our curriculum functional yet follow the spirit of the Forms!

The way we use the Forms is more like a progression, but there's still an aspect of specialization at later levels.  For instance, I tend to find that I lean more towards Makashi than the other Pillars (Shii-Cho, Soresu and Ataru).

[Master Uilos]

I'm really just trying to write this down in a way that works for martial artists, writers, and performers can look at it and go 'this is the core of what we're aiming for'

I love Shii Cho, mostly because I love going from 'zero' to 'up in your face' in no time at all. I'm a fairly large guy. Suddenly having me barreling towards you was a great way to win matches. I also have a weird working relationship with Makashi, because most of the guys I work with are fencers of several different stripes.

[Master Seblaise]

They're rather abstract ideas, and VERY open to interpretation.  Master Uilos does the best job I've encountered in trying to flesh them out, and make them a bit less nebulous.  We both work with TPLA, and it's been a constant challenge to make our curriculum functional yet follow the spirit of the Forms!

The way we use the Forms is more like a progression, but there's still an aspect of specialization at later levels.  For instance, I tend to find that I lean more towards Makashi than the other Pillars (Shii-Cho, Soresu and Ataru).

Actually, i try to understand the Forms to discuss and exchange with lightsaber fans around the globe ... because it is often the first question they ask 

I now understand that Ataru is aggressive and that a fighter will make a swarm of strike in order to touch only once ... and it is typically the way we fight in canne ... so if you add the "acrobatic" part of this MA ...

But i also understand that i probably do not use only Ataru. After 1 minute of constant attack, i usually have to rest a little (because of the temperature under the fencing mask ) so i switch to a defense strategy (Soresu) and to a calmer attack strategy (Makashi).

I'm really just trying to write this down in a way that works for martial artists, writers, and performers can look at it and go 'this is the core of what we're aiming for'

I love Shii Cho, mostly because I love going from 'zero' to 'up in your face' in no time at all. I'm a fairly large guy. Suddenly having me barreling towards you was a great way to win matches. I also have a weird working relationship with Makashi, because most of the guys I work with are fencers of several different stripes.

And it works

[Master Althalus]

I'm really just trying to write this down in a way that works for martial artists, writers, and performers can look at it and go 'this is the core of what we're aiming for'

Funny how much HEMA and sabercombat have in common, it seems. Both are aiming at accuracy towards some source (a fictional one in this case).

The inherent problem with the Seven Forms is, that they were created mostly by non-martial artists, so their martial base is rather vague. Real-life martial arts have a broader base when it comes to tactics - especially those meant for real combat. An art with a strictly defensive focus like Soresu or an aggressive one like Ataru have a good chance of dying out rather quickly.
When it comes to real-life equivalent martial arts, IMHO we have to look at certain aspects rather than the complete art.
In the end, sabercombat has to become a new art in itself, encompassing all the aspects of the six forms (the seventh one is a purely philosophical approach, IMHO, without a seperate technical base), not just a mix-and-match of real-life martial arts.

[Master Uilos]

Funny how much HEMA and sabercombat have in common, it seems. Both are aiming at accuracy towards some source (a fictional one in this case).

The inherent problem with the Seven Forms is, that they were created mostly by non-martial artists, so their martial base is rather vague. Real-life martial arts have a broader base when it comes to tactics - especially those meant for real combat. An art with a strictly defensive focus like Soresu or an aggressive one like Ataru have a good chance of dying out rather quickly.
When it comes to real-life equivalent martial arts, IMHO we have to look at certain aspects rather than the complete art.
In the end, sabercombat has to become a new art in itself, encompassing all the aspects of the six forms (the seventh one is a purely philosophical approach, IMHO, without a seperate technical base), not just a mix-and-match of real-life martial arts.

It's not so much as a mix and match as you think (or I'm saying). I'm saying that these are the directions you should look at. These are touchstones, not direct examples. Look at these, research these, and CREATE. Some people may take that literally and just play the example of the buffet table. If it works, that's great! Others will research, absorb, and try to create something new on their own. If it works, that's great!

The inherent problem with the Forms is that because of their writing, there are never going to be One Universally Accepted style (with maybe the exception of NYJ's Shii Cho, but that has a lot to do with it being the first to work) in this community. You're going to see different versions of each form from different groups, different individuals. And that's okay. Kind of a goal of mine is to see groups get together and show each other what they've done and share, blending their ideas and their technique in to something better and possibly get closer to what we're going for.

[Master Seblaise]

I am not sure that the Forms were written by non martial artists ... i though that there are some Maîtres d'Armes credited on every movie of the saga.

I like the idea that forms are just "philosophy" as, on SWU, they are practiced by zillions of alien species ... with different anatomies and physiologies. So their style regarding a given form must be obviously unique.

On earth, they are practiced by zillions of geek species ... with different backgrounds and objectives. I understood that if shii cho is "Kendo" for historical reasons (i have read that kendoka were involved in the first movie), the other forms are just "key words" and there interpretation are different if you are a well known Wushu World Champion or a Cosplayer ... and none of these two is more "true" than the other.

[wandering-seeker]

Having done martial arts for most of my life, I'd say that the philosophy and the differing executions of the forms are really to be expected. In Kung Fu, which is most of what I've studied, all the schools teach the animal forms or styles, but no two schools teach them in exactly the same way. The first school I attended was mostly focused on a more acrobatic interpretation while the second which I was a member of for much longer took a more grounded, ruthless and direct approach to fighting that focused on direct and lethal fighting doctrines.

Long story short, I agree with Seblaise and Uilos that the forms are extremely open to interpretation between different schools and individuals and no two fighters within a form will embody it in the same way.

[Master Uilos]

I am not sure that the Forms were written by non martial artists ... i though that there are some Maîtres d'Armes credited on every movie of the saga.

I like the idea that forms are just "philosophy" as, on SWU, they are practiced by zillions of alien species ... with different anatomies and physiologies. So their style regarding a given form must be obviously unique.

On earth, they are practiced by zillions of geek species ... with different backgrounds and objectives. I understood that if shii cho is "Kendo" for historical reasons (i have read that kendoka were involved in the first movie), the other forms are just "key words" and there interpretation are different if you are a well known Wushu World Champion or a Cosplayer ... and none of these two is more "true" than the other.

The Seven Forms were not written for the movies, but for Expanded Universe. They were written by Dr. David West Reynolds, an archaeologist; and Jack Bobo, a fight choreographer. The Forms, not once, appear in any of the movies specifically. They were written after Episode II's release and Nick Gallard (the choreographer for the prequels) has confirmed that he never built the fights on any style, real or fictional.

The Forms are, first and foremost, literary devices meant to characterize and add flavor to a world we only get to see the shallow end of in the prequels. All of those production stills on wookiepedia that are claimed to be "forms stances" aren't stances. They are stock poses for production. A lot of the Forms were retconned in to the Characters and fights. That's why Vader and Luke are both cited as Djem So users, because their fights were so heavily based on broadsword and kendo that it was too visually distinct to say otherwise. It's also why these Forms are so hard to nail down. Because if there was a weapons master building this stuff (as what later happened in the Hobbit movies to characterize the different armies) then we'd have clear examples of what these Forms should look like and not just a mish mash of cgi luancy.

In contrast, look at the other Star Wars Martial Art: Teras Kasi. The writer that introduced Teras Kasi has openly said that it is based primarily on the martial art Silat. That's it.

[Master Seblaise]

The Seven Forms were not written for the movies, but for Expanded Universe. They were written by Dr. David West Reynolds, an archaeologist; and Jack Bobo, a fight choreographer. The Forms, not once, appear in any of the movies specifically. They were written after Episode II's release and Nick Gallard (the choreographer for the prequels) has confirmed that he never built the fights on any style, real or fictional.

The Forms are, first and foremost, literary devices meant to characterize and add flavor to a world we only get to see the shallow end of in the prequels. All of those production stills on wookiepedia that are claimed to be "forms stances" aren't stances. They are stock poses for production. A lot of the Forms were retconned in to the Characters and fights. That's why Vader and Luke are both cited as Djem So users, because their fights were so heavily based on broadsword and kendo that it was too visually distinct to say otherwise. It's also why these Forms are so hard to nail down. Because if there was a weapons master building this stuff (as what later happened in the Hobbit movies to characterize the different armies) then we'd have clear examples of what these Forms should look like and not just a mish mash of cgi luancy.

In contrast, look at the other Star Wars Martial Art: Teras Kasi. The writer that introduced Teras Kasi has openly said that it is based primarily on the martial art Silat. That's it.

Ok, did not know that

Point for improving my culture !!!

[Master Althalus]

They were written after Episode II's release and Nick Gallard (the choreographer for the prequels) has confirmed that he never built the fights on any style, real or fictional.

And Bob Anderson (who played Vader in the fight-scenes) actually had a firm grounding on historical European techniques (he did more of this in LotR) and sport-fencing. Funny that everybody thinks of Kendô first ... 

The writer that introduced Teras Kasi has openly said that it is based primarily on the martial art Silat.

A good example. There is no "Silat" - the word just means "dance". There are a whole bunch of different styles of Silat in Indonesia (some differing a LOT from the others). And what we see Darth Maul do in Ep. I is a mix of Chinese martial arts and acrobatics. 
So, we have an author that has a certain picture in his mind, the movie and reality - and all three differ from each other. 

[Master Uilos]

Yes, but kendo had already been used in Ep IV and elements were kept in. Ep V and VI had the heavier Longsword motions I prefer in my fights.

Teras Kasi also was never in a movie. Just some books and a crap fighting game no one really remembers. It debut about five years before Maul or Ep I. Also, looking it up, explicitly stated to be based on Pencak Silat, which is this:

https://youtu.be/dQmaDZL_Ooo

And there is a key word that should be noted: Based On. It's based on a style, does not mean it will adhere to it perfectly.

[Master Seblaise]

Interesting ... For Ray Park, they casted such an Athlete that I always thought he created his own style for Darth Maul.


Lucasfilm proposed a web documentary about the evolution of saber fighting in SW. I remember they mainly told about Kendo ... but maybe i am wrong because it is in English ant there are not subtitles


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60tivujA8_E

[Master Uilos]

That documentary had more to do with plugging the US Kendo team than anythibg, theybwere using Star Wars as the method. Kendo IS a part of the choreography, but most kendoka's laugh when Nick Gallard, who choreographed the entirety of the prequels, turned a standard block in to a plum blossom. So it can be argued that it's loosely based on it, yes. Loosely. Looser than what they were saying

[Master Seblaise]

Oki ... as i said, no subtitles. Read English is almost ok but understand someone who speaks English remains difficult