!!! Warning Spoiler Alert !!! The Ep. 8 Topic !!! Warning Spoiler Alert !!!

[Darth Logos]

Great op-eds here. Here's my perspective without resorting to a "wall of text" on things that have already been said. (DISCLAIMER - I'm not a Warsie, I don't own a saber, I didn't see the prequels, and I didn't even know there was a VII and VIII until a few days ago. So I didn't have any expectations other than to see some saber play to help me pick out a birthday present. I did have ANH on 33-1/3 LP when I was a kid, which was one of my favorite things. Great way to memorize every line in a movie.)

• The one thing that irked me the most was the Finn and Rose survival and escape sequence after the light speed torpedo blast. A thousand storm troopers around and light axes on the decapitating downswing... everyone is vaporized for 100 yards in all directions except them? That's not 'plot armor'; that's plot WELFARE. (As an aside, I wanted Phasma to take off her helmet for her demise AND IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BEN DEL TORO IN THE SCOUT INSTEAD OF BB8! So he could have made good on his 'they shoot at you, you shoot at them' quote.)
• In TFA, I thought Finn was going to be a throwaway character, but they developed him rapidly and I ended up really liking him. The only time I teared up in TLJ was during his final run scene into the ram cannon, which would have been an awesome, heroic ending for him. I now know why they couldn't let him do it, but I HATE ROSE! I hate Rose, I hate her sister. Everyone complaining about bombs dropping in space should be more upset that a girl with a broken back could kick at a steel structure to make a detonator fall off the edge and catch it with Jedi reflexes.
• Which leads me to my one social commentary complaint... as in the '70s and '80s, the bad guys are still run by overconfident, underwhelming white guys in a regime resembling the third reich, but where the rebellion was run by men in those days, it's now run by ugly, pointy nosed, craggly faced women. Women whose every motive is noble, whose every action is right, and who surround themselves with trigger happy men they can push around and teach lessons to. A female bomber and her sister save the days, a woman kamikaze mission saves the day (though they wouldn't even let the black man save the day), and a girl lead Jedi. I'm all for inclusion and diversity, but this was too heavy handed for me.
• Rey isn't a nobody. She's Leia's daughter - get ready for it.
• All I could think about Snoke was Ed Harris in The Truman Show.
• I never thought I would like Kylo Ren, but he's as good or better than Vader ever was. His helmet is better, too, even though he really is a 'child behind a mask'. Vader needed his (I think); why does KR wear one? Anyway, makes me want to get the Kylo Ren motorcycle helmet for my bike, even though I don't usually go for 'bad guy' stuff.
• Question for the group:  I loved Luke's Force projection and death at the end - well played. When I was a kid, I never could understand how OWK just disappeared when Vader swung at him in ANH. His robe and saber dropped and he was gone. We know that a saber cuts through what it hits. Was OWK projecting himself all those years ago and we just didn't know it? Or did they not have a good/clean way to portray Jedi saber death in 1977?
• I didn't have a problem with any of the humor or tongue-in-cheek moments. It's what made the original trilogy a spaghetti western set in space and made them so enjoyable (as opposed to the dark, complicated seriousness of the prequel, IMO, which I didn't watch).
• As I already said, I had a single, almost teary-eyed moment in this one. I had at least three full blown tear jerkers in TFA because of the throwback moments and plot developments.
• Leia in space was stupid, but I understand it. I would have given her a suspended, frozen moment of Force talk with Luke and given her a space dust escort into the deep. That's what I thought was about to happen and what would have compelled Luke to rejoin the rebellion.

Overall, I liked it. My step daughter had never seen any Star Wars, so we watched VII and VIII on Tuesday. Friday we are watching IV-V-VI, so it's been a good father-daughter event. She liked it, too.

Ok, you had me at the start of your list but steadily lost me with all the TFA love. I was trying to go easy on this film, but since you opened it up...

- I've always hated Finn, but I'm with you. He's finally about to do something heroic and save the day, and Rose screws the whole damn thing. WTF? Plus, the ram-laser is melting the guns away, and they're on the periphery of the beam, yet the rest of that rust bucket holds together long enough for the "potential" rest of the trip?

- In TFA Poe was supposed to be a throw-away, but Jar Jar Abrams totally flaked on us and brought him back. Rose's sister on the other hand (though hot) ugh. I viewed the kicking as "I got no time to climb" but I took it with a box of salt because if you look closely, the ladder wasn't even connected to the deck. No way a woman that weighs a 100lbs soaking wet is going to jar that thing loose. Plus....who the F#$% uses a REMOTE to activate a bomb release? The whole scene was FUBAR.

- IKR. Didn't the Spice Girls burn out the whole "Girl Power" trip back in the '90s? But you do have to admit that Daisy is a lot more pleasant to look at than Mark or Hayden or Ewan.

- I don't think she's Leia's, but if she's not a Skywalker, I'm rioting.

- I just had a thought about Snoke......does anybody think they are trying to cash in on the OC arc that Sidious had clones of certain folks including himself, and that Snoke is actually a clone that wasn't fully developed?

- Ugh. As much as I enjoyed that they fleshed out the character more in this movie, I hate Kyle. And as I vehemently stated after TFA, I hate his helmet more. "Ooohh, aahhhh. It has moving parts"......that do precisely jack squat. Just.........ugh. NO! Vader's helmet had no moving parts, served a vital function, and still did a better job at intimidating.

- I hated Luke's "ascension" to the Force. At least with OBK's there was a cause: Vader killed him. And Yoda's: he died of old age. Luke? "Ok. I saved the day. Now I'm going to inexplicably die." _{Da fuq?} No OBK wasn't manifesting an apparition, he actually fought Vader. Ever notice that Luke never actually crosses blades with Kylo?

- How do you know that the prequels ARE dark and complicatedly serious if you've never seen them? ô¿o Oohh, busted.

- Yeah I nearly cried at TFA..................over how bad it was and is now held as canon. It was a sad day.

[Layana]

If your only concern is how the women look that lead or fight for the rebellion, you got massive problems in your head, dudes.

[DaddyFlip]

If your only concern is how the women look that lead or fight for the rebellion, you got massive problems in your head, dudes.

No, no; that was by far not my only concern, as should have been clear from my wall of text. I only used looks as a comparison to the evil, male, third reich looking FO. Both sides were ugly; I WISH I could have contrasted it. On the good side, there's no doubt that Rey is a better looking Jedi than Luke AND Daisy is a better actor than Mark.

Now, had purple hair Hoolihan or whatever her name was had thrust her arm shoulder deep into a big pile of triceratops space poop and yelled, "IT'S A TRAP!" I might could have taken it easy on the women.

[Darth Tepes]

.... AND Daisy is a better actor than Mark.

...are.....are you joking?

[Layana]

No, no; that was by far not my only concern, as should have been clear from my wall of text. I only used looks as a comparison to the evil, male, third reich looking FO. Both sides were ugly; I WISH I could have contrasted it. On the good side, there's no doubt that Rey is a better looking Jedi than Luke AND Daisy is a better actor than Mark.

Now, had purple hair Hoolihan or whatever her name was had thrust her arm shoulder deep into a big pile of triceratops space poop and yelled, "IT'S A TRAP!" I might could have taken it easy on the women.

Maybe your view is skewed. No, not maybe. Definetly.

[DaddyFlip]

- I don't think she's Leia's, but if she's not a Skywalker, I'm rioting.

- How do you know that the prequels ARE dark and complicatedly serious if you've never seen them? ô¿o Oohh, busted.

Has to be a Skywalker to complete the parallel that (I think) exists. Since I'm a casual fan, I will desist.

Okay, full disclosure. Yes, I was interested that there was a new SW and this Darth Maul character looked really cool. I watched about the first half of TPM on DVD and I was done. Too serious, too much politics, more martial arts-esque than I thought was Star Wars. Where was the fun? Where was the spaghetti western in space? I couldn't get into it, so I never went back to it and remain a dogmatic prequel hater. Luckily for the casual fan, it doesn't matter. If it weren't for Natalie Portman, I might go back and watch it. Then again, there's a lot of other throw away actors there too, so no real need.

@DT... not joking. Much more interesting and compelling than Mark ever was, to me. Casual fan here.

@Layana... it definitely probably is. I'm a casual fan, I don't play Star Wars dress up. So we will probably definitely remain skewed on these things. I was just making commentary on the movie.

[Layana]

@Layana... it definitely probably is. I'm a casual fan, I don't play Star Wars dress up. So we will probably definitely remain skewed on these things. I was just making commentary on the movie.

That has nothing to do with being a Star Wars fan or not, or dressing up as something or not.

[Darth Tepes]

That has nothing to do with being a Star Wars fan or not, or dressing up as something or not.

Agreeing with Layana here...these things aren't a question of hardcore or casual fan...  As for Daisy being a better actor than Mark...that of course is a matter of opinion...but still...Mark has more experience and range than Daisy.  Not to discount Daisy...as I enjoy her acting (she was a pleasure to watch in Murder on the Orient Express)...but Mark is on a whole different level...it was the writing that was the issue. 

[Darth Logos]

...are.....are you joking?

Seconded. WHAT!?!

Now, had purple hair Hoolihan or whatever her name was had thrust her arm shoulder deep into a big pile of triceratops space poop and yelled, "IT'S A TRAP!" I might could have taken it easy on the women.

Points for the Hot-lips reference.

If your only concern is how the women look that lead or fight for the rebellion, you got massive problems in your head, dudes.

Don't look at me, my only gripe was about the purple hair. I've always thought Laura Dern was cute.

Has to be a Skywalker to complete the parallel that (I think) exists. Since I'm a casual fan, I will desist.

The Saga is about the Skywalker family. Plain and simple. Now the spinoff stories I'm ok with, but don't call them Saga Episodes.

Okay, full disclosure. Yes, I was interested that there was a new SW and this Darth Maul character looked really cool. I watched about the first half of TPM on DVD and I was done. Too serious, too much politics, more martial arts-esque than I thought was Star Wars. Where was the fun? Where was the spaghetti western in space? I couldn't get into it, so I never went back to it and remain a dogmatic prequel hater. Luckily for the casual fan, it doesn't matter. If it weren't for Natalie Portman, I might go back and watch it. Then again, there's a lot of other throw away actors there too, so no real need.

Define "throw away actors".

@DT... not joking. Much more interesting and compelling than Mark ever was, to me. Casual fan here.

You do know the difference between actor and character, yes? Simply because Rey is a more interesting character (only because they won't tell us anything about her) does not equate to Daisy being a better actor than Mark. Plus.....a good actor cannot trump bad direction.

@Layana... it definitely probably is. I'm a casual fan, I don't play Star Wars dress up. So we will probably definitely remain skewed on these things. I was just making commentary on the movie.

Cosplay....please.

[Taegin Roan]

You do know the difference between actor and character, yes? Simply because Rey is a more interesting character (only because they won't tell us anything about her) does not equate to Daisy being a better actor than Mark. Plus.....a good actor cannot trump bad direction.

So true, though I really enjoyed TFA and TLJ. Are they the best SW movies ever made? No, not by a long shot, but they were good. I don't honestly care about what all of you guys say about them being canon. If Lucas wanted the books to be canon, they would have been canon. I like the books. They are fun to read, but they are and always have been fan fiction.

Also because of my interest in acting, I feel I should touch on this. Daisy is not a better actor that Mark. They are both pretty good, but they also have different skill sets. We all know Mark makes a great Joker, but we also know that how good Luke Skywalker is. I still am not sure what caused him to change his stance on the Jedi so much, and we may never, but I hope we do. Anyways, back to acting. Part of why Daisy is such a good actor in TFA and TLJ is because the character of Rey is very similar to Daisy's personality. That alone makes it easier to act the part when you do not have a lot of experience. Mark however, has significantly more experience, and so he is able to play the part of a character that is not exactly like his own personality. I would say that Mark is a better actor, but only because he has more experience.

[Darth Tepes]

So true, though I really enjoyed TFA and TLJ. Are they the best SW movies ever made? No, not by a long shot, but they were good. I don't honestly care about what all of you guys say about them being canon. If Lucas wanted the books to be canon, they would have been canon. I like the books. They are fun to read, but they are and always have been fan fiction.

Also because of my interest in acting, I feel I should touch on this. Daisy is not a better actor that Mark. They are both pretty good, but they also have different skill sets. We all know Mark makes a great Joker, but we also know that how good Luke Skywalker is. I still am not sure what caused him to change his stance on the Jedi so much, and we may never, but I hope we do. Anyways, back to acting. Part of why Daisy is such a good actor in TFA and TLJ is because the character of Rey is very similar to Daisy's personality. That alone makes it easier to act the part when you do not have a lot of experience. Mark however, has significantly more experience, and so he is able to play the part of a character that is not exactly like his own personality. I would say that Mark is a better actor, but only because he has more experience.

Speaking for myself, Canon has nothing to do with my dislike of TLJ.  The story choices and direction are what I have issue with.

[DaddyFlip]

Didn't mean to STARt and WARS today with my movie observations.

@skewness... not dissing anyone who play..aaaahhh... cosplays (I don't know what that means, but I'll assimilate). I was only meaning that our fan levels are vastly different, therefore, my view might be very different than yours in several areas. With respect to looks or women, please don't take offense so easily when we're discussing fictional things. So far, none of the Dark Side fanBOYS have complained that I compared the FO to nazzis. To me, it is unusual to have a preponderance of female military leaders and heroes - fictionally and non-fictionally speaking. I was personally and especially taken aback by Leia being called 'general'. YUCK! She's supposed to be a princess! Braless, in white flowing robes or gold plated bikinis! AAAAAAHHHHHHGGGGHHHHH! Please forgive me. 

@acting... I will correct myself and say that I enjoyed Daisy's acting in these two films more than I enjoyed Mark's acting in his five films. For the record, I've never seen Mark in any other movie than Star Wars. I couldn't name another movie he's been in. That's my fault, not his. But who doesn't like Luke?

@throw away actors... I'm not a fan of any of the big names that were in the prequel, although I will give props to Schindler's List and Moulin Rouge.

All personal opinion, of course.

[Landen Se-Sentien]

Wow!

Me and this thread...for now.

[Lady Agana Kath]

Wow!

Me and this thread...for now.

I second this 

[Layana]

@skewness... not dissing anyone who play..aaaahhh... cosplays (I don't know what that means, but I'll assimilate). I was only meaning that our fan levels are vastly different, therefore, my view might be very different than yours in several areas. With respect to looks or women, please don't take offense so easily when we're discussing fictional things. So far, none of the Dark Side fanBOYS have complained that I compared the FO to nazzis. To me, it is unusual to have a preponderance of female military leaders and heroes - fictionally and non-fictionally speaking. I was personally and especially taken aback by Leia being called 'general'. YUCK! She's supposed to be a princess! Braless, in white flowing robes or gold plated bikinis! AAAAAAHHHHHHGGGGHHHHH! Please forgive me. 

Jerk.