Why all the Sith support?

[Master Rel]

(clipped)
All this talk of good and evil seems pretty overtly simplistic. We have to assume that the "bad" guys think they are "good". Everybody thinks they are the hero, not the villain.

And such is the measure of insanity when one's humanity is worn away by corruption and vile action...and on the other side of the coin, power and position can truly test one's resolve and sometimes good intentions are not enough to fight back the foibles of being human.

The odd truth is that true heroes must fight against accepting being a hero or chance losing themselves in the process...where as a true villain is fed by any number of selfish reasons and quite often is seeking acceptance for their actions, also losing what little grasp of reality they have in the process.

Fighting against human nature or accepting it without restraint and loosing it completely, such is the polar issue.

As the Buddha says...“Three things cannot be long hidden...the sun, the moon, and the truth”  

[Master Rel]

It is interesting how quickly people dismiss common saying now as bad without considering that they have meaning.

Black and white.

Are situps bad or good...black or white?

Is the car working...black or white?

etc.

It is far too easy to wave a hand and say that everything is shades of gray, when in fact most of life is in fact black and white, and life moves on with full richness anyway.

When you are hungry...truly hungry...food is required...black and white...hungry or sated...no question of flavors, you must eat.

Thirsty, I have some odd smelling well water? Black and white

As I said, once you get past the basics...the structure of it all...then there is time for shades of gray and color.

But for something as visceral and fundamental as good and evil...at the core...beyond casual considerations of this or that...the core...black or white...good or evil...it really is that simple.

Now if we were discussing one side or the other and not both, well that would be a different matter...all Jedi talk, discussing the highs and lows...same as with sith or gray...humanity dictates that we will act in some measure as sublime creatures and as base fell beasts...it is the struggle to manage these and to live that defines us...good and evil are easy to measure, it is not by the actions or motivations of the actions, it is rather by the end results and how those who are affected see those actions.

Murder a billion to bring your version of peace...you are a monster.

Destroy thriving planets to prevent others from making war...you are insane.

Slaughter a bunch of children so they will not grow up to stand against you...(shakes head)

These are things that you just can not defend as just or good, unless your version of reality is skewed by a lack of humanity.

In war both sides, all sides, commit acts that are evil...killing is evil...but it is in our nature to destroy.  Just as it is in our nature to create.

In the end this is not a discussion of Jedi and sith, it is more about the struggle to deal with being human...and how the story changes when there is power involved.

Black and white is not boring, it is clean and it is natural...living or dying, hungry or sated, comfortable or miserable, etc.

[Darth Nonymous]

It is interesting how quickly people dismiss common saying now as bad without considering that they have meaning.

Black and white.

Are situps bad or good...black or white?

Neither. They are contra-indicated in certain situations and when used for certain goals.

Is the car working...black or white?

But that tells us nothing on how to get the car working. Or how it is not working. Sure one can keep such a general view of things and label rings black or white, but the hard truth is when you look at it closely, those terms have little use.

It is far too easy to wave a hand and say that everything is shades of gray, when in fact most of life is in fact black and white, and life moves on with full richness anyway.

Which is easier? Saying a person is good or bad or trying to find out what their personal motivations and ideas are before acting?

Saying the car is not working or fixing it?

Looking at life in good or bad, or trying to base behavior on situational, factual, and interpersonal feedback in real time?

From where I sit, it is the idea that most of  life is black or white instead of acknowledging the infinite variety of experience carefully and thoughtfully that is the dismissal.

When you are hungry...truly hungry...food is required...black and white...hungry or sated...no question of flavors, you must eat.

Thirsty, I have some odd smelling well water? Black and white

As I said, once you get past the basics...the structure of it all...then there is time for shades of gray and color.

But for something as visceral and fundamental as good and evil...at the core...beyond casual considerations of this or that...the core...black or white...good or evil...it really is that simple.

What you have described is the first part of the experience "do I like it or not". That reaction is the surface of the experience, the facade. The beginning, not the end. To reverse it and say that that is the core of all experience is claiming the skin of the apple is the best part because you can see it.

Now if we were discussing one side or the other and not both, well that would be a different matter...all Jedi talk, discussing the highs and lows...same as with sith or gray...humanity dictates that we will act in some measure as sublime creatures and as base fell beasts...it is the struggle to manage these and to live that defines us...good and evil are easy to measure, it is not by the actions or motivations of the actions, it is rather by the end results and how those who are affected see those actions.

Murder a billion to bring your version of peace...you are a monster.

Destroy thriving planets to prevent others from making war...you are insane.

Slaughter a bunch of children so they will not grow up to stand against you...(shakes head)

These are things that you just can not defend as just or good, unless your version of reality is skewed by a lack of humanity.

In war both sides, all sides, commit acts that are evil...killing is evil...but it is in our nature to destroy.  Just as it is in our nature to create.

In the end this is not a discussion of Jedi and sith, it is more about the struggle to deal with being human...and how the story changes when there is power involved.

Black and white is not boring, it is clean and it is natural...living or dying, hungry or sated, comfortable or miserable, etc.

Black and white is general and vague. Your post proves my point. The monster who thinks he brings peace. It's all subjective, who decides? Net effect is far more important than over simplified versions of the world. While polar opposites exist in nature, it is hardly correct to say they are they way of nature. It is the pull between to opposing forces that creates everything. It all exists in the middle and that middle is changing all the time. The fact that we need to separate them into our boxes is by no means proof of the boxes existence.

And when people feel comfortable of saying this is good and this is bad, we get monsters who try to save people from what they have seen as bad.

Nature is not clean.

[RogueLeader]

Exactly. Rel's point is flawed, because he says the world is just black and white, when it clearly isn't.

Murder a billion to bring your version of peace...you are a monster.

Destroy thriving planets to prevent others from making war...you are insane.

Slaughter a bunch of children so they will not grow up to stand against you...(shakes head)

Yes, those actions are evil. But the person who does them may believe they are acting for the greater good. Are they then completely evil?

And when people feel comfortable of saying this is good and this is bad, we get monsters who try to save people from what they have seen as bad. 

Exactly. A good example of this phenomenon is Atris in KOTOR 2, who thought much the same way Rel does, and whose hatred of the Sith caused her to fall in the end.

In my personal opinion, there are bad people on the Republic side and good people on the Sith side, they're just not the majority.

[Master Rel]

In truth the good and bad titles are not bestowed upon the heads of those who act by peers or enemies, but rather by those who are affected by said acts.

So a Jedi or sith could consider themselves how ever they like, but it is the people...the mundane throngs who will grant titles...as they are the affected, it is theirs to grant.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Exactly. Rel's point is flawed, because he says the world is just black and white, when it clearly isn't.

Yes, those actions are evil. But the person who does them may believe they are acting for the greater good. Are they then completely evil?

Just because they're for the greater good does not mean they're not evil... it just depends on weighing this evil against others.  If an innocent child stands in front of me and a Force vision tells me he will become a Sith Lord who will bring terrible harm to the galaxy, would killing him be evil?  Yes, it would be evil, but you're looking at one evil act against a potentially huge evil outcome.  Intent and actions are separate things which can be viewed separately, but you still have to weigh them both carefully.

Palpatine dominated the galaxy for his own personal power and the glory of the Sith, while Darth Caedus did so for the sake of security and peace.  Same action (roughly), different intentions.  Is one more evil than another?  It's a question I don't think we'll ever get a "right" answer to, because there are always differing viewpoints on it.

One thing I believe in is that the ends don't always justify the means... sometimes a less favorable situation might be the better one if the path to it is more acceptable in ethics and morals.

[RogueLeader]

Just because they're for the greater good does not mean they're not evil... it just depends on weighing this evil against others.  If an innocent child stands in front of me and a Force vision tells me he will become a Sith Lord who will bring terrible harm to the galaxy, would killing him be evil?  Yes, it would be evil, but you're looking at one evil act against a potentially huge evil outcome.  Intent and actions are separate things which can be viewed separately, but you still have to weigh them both carefully.

Palpatine dominated the galaxy for his own personal power and the glory of the Sith, while Darth Caedus did so for the sake of security and peace.  Same action (roughly), different intentions.  Is one more evil than another?  It's a question I don't think we'll ever get a "right" answer to, because there are always differing viewpoints on it.

One thing I believe in is that the ends don't always justify the means... sometimes a less favorable situation might be the better one if the path to it is more acceptable in ethics and morals.

That's been my worldview for a long time as well. Personally, I wouldn't kill that kid.

[Darth Severus]

My biggest flaw with this whole arguement is that the Jedi are good by default.
They say they are good.
So do most dictators, so do most PM's, and Presidents.
Everyone says they are good, that doesn't make it true.

As for the Sith being evil, its the simplist view of the matter, and it helps most people to think of good vs. bad, black vs. white, working vs. broke.

I have a truck, it runs, has a slight timing issue I have been unable to resolve, this issue creates a check engine light. I live in washington St, my vehicle has to pass emmission standards, if you have a check engine light on, they will not run the emmissions test. My truck runs, but I can't drive it.

My bigger issue is with the concept that there is a standard morality, a good or bad that transends, personal experience, opinion, religion, politics, world view, or philosophical differences. I have a philosophical stance that puts me at odds with a good portion of the country, (to abide by the forum rules I won't get into what it is) but I will say that it is my  philosophy, my world view, my idea of what is right and wrong, I judge myself by its rules, but I will not judge others by it.

I understand that everyone has their own views on morality, religion, politics, right and wrong, black and white. I am open to all discussion, and will argue my position, but I will not deny peoples rights to their own choices, whether I think them wrong or not.

My RP character, slightly forgiving for a Sith, (mostly because he looks to bank favors owed) does not share the same view. But alas he is not me, he is ridged he is cunning and he is from my point of view evil, even though he does not believe as much.

[Darth Nonymous]

"The urge to save the Galaxy is often a false face for the wish to control it. "- or something like that. 

[TheHobbitofDune]

What is good and what is evil? The vast majority of human beings can all agree that a ton of things are evil, but does that truly make those things evil? Only from their viewpoint. It's easier to just say that certain things are evil and be done with it, but ultimately it's a thousand times more complicated than that. In the end, nothing is truly good and nothing is truly evil.

One group of people can be conditioned to think that killing children is evil. Another group can be conditioned to think that killing children is great. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong when everyone in the world has a biased view of the situation? There are only those two groups of people in this world. Being in the majority doesn't count either, it just shows how many people are on one side of the fence and how many people are on the other side.

In the end they are just hollow words. There is no good and there is no evil, the words are too loaded. Why not just use 'right' and 'wrong' instead? Good and evil are two absolutes, while right and wrong are just opinions, if that makes any sense.

Probably doesn't.

I suppose one example I can offer is the typical Jedi vs. Sith example. Jedi are good and Sith are evil, or vice versa. Heck, don't even look at as good or evil, just think of them as absolutes. Either way, they are what they are and there is no changing that. Then you have the Grey Jedi who are neither good nor evil; they do not believe in absolutes. They are essentially Jedi and Sith fused together who think in terms of right and wrong rather than good or evil. This is why they can maintain balance, because they can go either way.

That obviously wouldn't work in real life though.

None of this probably makes any sense to you guys though since it came from my convoluted brain.

[Master Rel]

The same people will argue for their side either way lol...but looking at it as right and wrong does have merit IMO.

In the end it is all about the majority of the people.

If a sith is wanting to control the galaxy to end war, suffering, and conflict...that sounds good and right to me...but if he destroys a dozen worlds and slaughters billions of lives to get it done in his/her vision...that sounds a bit less good and right, even if peace is the end result.

Insert any person of any philosophy into the same equation and there will be questionable actions to get a set result...I can not help wonder how much hippie anti government/establishment/"the man" was written into the various Star Wars scripts...if it all started and ended with Luke rescuing his sister, then it would have been a space western. But it has grown, evolving beyond its meager vision...retrograding aliens, cultures, technology, etc. to fit the ever growing whole of Star Wars.

That the Jedi have taken actions that mirror some of those taken by those committing crimes against the status quo people of the galaxy, that is a testament that they are not perfect and that they are human...the main difference between a pair of people who commit like acts of violence or related action is what happens next...if one laments the loss of life or strains her/his consciousness, then that is a respected reaction that can lessen the act as a balance of being human...if one laughs maniacally and chokes a kitten in excitement, well that is seen in a different way.

Do all Jedi lament when they have to kill another sentient?  I personally would hope so, but I am thinking not so much.  I suspect many would chalk it up to needs of the people, better off dead, it was him or me, etc.

The issue with holding oneself to any strict guideline is that it is most often unforgiving and many times a constant struggle to reach.

One of the reasons Grey sounds so appealing.  Less steps.  Easier to reach the gold ring as you swing around. More forgiving because the expectations are reduced.

Now I am not saying this is not better, hell I am more Gray in real life, I suspect we are all more gray than light or dark (except for TJ and Jev...we are watching you two lol)...but in real life we are simply human...and that is a struggle in itself.

So let us bring this to a common acceptance that our preferred choice of side in regards to Star Wars fun is just that, for fun.

I am not holding anyone's feet to the fire for liking sith, I just wanted to know what was so appealing.  It does not mean it is wrong to have fun with a dark character...the issues and arguments came up when the same dark characters were defended as not being wrong in their actions just because in the character's POV it was just fine.

So favor the stoic and restrictive path of the Jedi, appreciate the chaos and power of the sith, or play the middle ground of the Grey...it is all good fun in the pursuit of entertainment.

[Rina Ascura]

There were times when I looked upon the Sith with some kind of sympathy. Those were the times of the Original Trilogy, where Darth Vader - the iconic Sith, THE Sith for everyone first seeing the films - oozed cool and badass. But everything changed when I saw Revenge of the Sith and read Stover's novel of the same name. And the catalyst for that change was Order 66 and Operation Knightfall. It was... like the Holocaust. Utterly revolting, going through a moral event horizon, making the Sith irredeemable for me - and, by proximity, the Sith-run Empire, too. (I still kinda like the non-Sith Empires of Thrawn and the Fels, though).